#2 - The Brutal Truth of Job Search

In this episode of Two Guys in Ties, Rod and Mitch break down the brutal truth of the job search process and what it really takes to stand out in today’s competitive market.

They discuss the importance of going above and beyond, the difference between doing the minimum and making an impact, and the qualities that separate candidates who get noticed from those who get overlooked. Whether you’re searching for your first job, looking to make a career move, or trying to accelerate your growth, this episode is packed with practical insights to help you take control of your career.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

You're listening to Two Guys in Ties. Hey everyone. Uh we're back. Two Guys in Ties. Uh today we're going to talk to you about something everyone needs to hear. And it's the brutal truths of job search and getting a job.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

That sounds scary. It is scary. How brutal. Dude, hold back on the truth. I don't want to hear the truth. I can't handle the truth. Reagan's laughing at me. No, seriously, how many people can literally handle the truth of job search? I there's so much I want to tell people, but I'm afraid I'm going to hurt their feelings. This is only our second episode, and I don't want to get bad reviews this early on. Do not give us bad reviews. We hope we're at least entertaining, but we are definitely going to give you some brutal, honest truths about job search. Because honestly, people need to hear it.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

They do. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think people realize how much they hurt themselves on accomplishing what they want for their career.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Yeah. I think it starts with not knowing what they want, not being really intentional. They just need a job. They just need to go get a job. I need a job. And because of that, they start this path that can become, in some cases, and I shared this in the last episode, a lifetime of doing the wrong thing. Let's change that. Let's stop that. Right now, I'm going to challenge anybody who's listening here today who doesn't love their job, who thinks they're in the wrong job. By the way, this happens a lot. I interviewed a lady yesterday. She's a senior VP at a company. She went to a company a year ago. And after 30 minutes on the interview, I said, Did you take the wrong job? She goes, Yep. I think I took the wrong job. I said, All right, let's not make that mistake. Let's not do that again. Now you can. Everybody's allowed a mole again, but try to reduce those.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Yeah, yeah. And I think uh a big thing comes down to being the selector. You know, it's funny. When I was coaching that cohort of kind of mid-level senior level folks, uh, the big thing I talked about was finding a job is a lot like dating.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

You know, I want to hear this, Mr. Single. No longer single, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Baby on the way.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

But was recently single.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Um, but but it really is. I mean, in a lot of ways, the job search has become a volume game. Just like going on an app on Hinge and swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe. There's a perception of unlimited leads. Is Hinge the uh what what what service is that? The most popular one for finding an actual relationship.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

By the way, why can't people find relationships the old-fashioned way? Why can't you meet your spouses the way I met my spouse in a bar drunk in Madrid? People don't drink anymore. Yeah, that's a problem. Yeah, I feel bad for the bar owners.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

I know, I know. But back back to the topic, I think um, you know, a big a big thing with dating and comparing to job search is people aren't being seen. Uh, and it starts at both the company and the uh applicants. And I think a big thing is again the perception of unlimited leads with quick apply on LinkedIn. You can apply to 50 jobs a day. People aren't targeted, people aren't selective. And uh it's something, and and you know this because this is something your dad said. Uh, my grandpa, high quality effort breeds high quality results. Yeah, and people want to put in low effort and expect high results. That's good. That almost never translates.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

I call that mailing it in. Yep. Yeah, just mailing in. I I say this about emails. People blast emails or they blast their resume or they blast applications through LinkedIn and they do this one-click thing, and that is zero effort. They should expect zero results. And they often do. And they'll say things like, Well, I applied for all these jobs, and I'm not hearing back. No, you did you did the easy thing. Do the hard thing. What's a hard thing? Let's make a list of hard things.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Yeah, I think the biggest one, and everyone's gonna hate me for saying it, but as you know, I'm a big advocate of being on the phones, is picking up the phone and cold calling.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Are you kidding? You want people to cold call? Dude, that's scary. People die from cold calling, they literally die, it kills people. No, you know what? I want to do this thing. Have you ever done yes and in improv?

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Okay, let's do yes and yes and cold calling doesn't kill people. People could also do a drive-by. Do you know what a drive-by is?

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Yeah, where you walk in and you drop off your resume. That's how I got most of the jobs I got during college.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

I know it sounds crazy. Could anybody ever get a real job, like a professional job, doing a drive-by?

SPEAKER_01 4:39

100%.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Really?

SPEAKER_01 4:41

I do think so. And especially now because companies are back in office and they want people who want to come in.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Let me let me give you an example of a drive-by where I know it can work and I've heard it work. Trade show.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Companies go to trade shows, the CEOs at the trade show, you know the CEO's gonna be there. By the way, CEOs go to the trade shows usually at the first half of the show because all the big announcements are then, and they usually leave before the show is over. So if a show is three days long, go the first day and maybe the first and second day, but definitely the first day if it's four or five days long. Day one, two, and three are really good days to go. But I know people that have gone by booths where they know the CEO is gonna be there. They dress like they're going to an interview. They bring printed resumes with them. They bring printed business cards. Mitch, I got a business card from a CEO the other day. You know how long it's been since I got a business card handed to me? I don't even know the business card printers are still around. By the way, I print business cards. Me too. Yeah, I still use them. But the CEO handed me a business card across the table. It says, I'm old school, I still believe in these, and I have a copy of his card. Bring business cards, and you literally can have an impromptu interview. And it doesn't look it, it looks impromptu to them, but it's not impromptu because you staged the whole thing. You knew they were gonna be there, you knew you were gonna go there, you got to research the company and all the stuff going on in that company. Hey, congratulations on your announcement yesterday about the XYZ whiz bang product that you guys just announced. That's gonna take this the industry by storm. I think that's gonna pass up ABC Company, your biggest competitor. And you say something like that to a CEO, they're gonna think, wow, you really know your stuff.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Yeah, I I agree. I think most people don't realize impressing the hiring manager, impressing a decision maker is one of the biggest things you can do to guarantee yourself a job.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

What do you think people do instead of impressing them?

SPEAKER_01 6:39

They go through the motions, they apply, they get put into an HR manager, they make it past the first test, then they show up for an interview with the hiring manager. It's virtual, they're wearing a polo shirt, you know? Oh my god, don't do that. Yeah, I think the biggest thing too is people don't know how to dress anymore. Yeah. You know, I said it on our last episode.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

I was always What do you think of this whole get up here? Decent. Yeah, I mean, I got navy slacks, I got a brown tie, and I've got a brown and navy jacket. I think it pulls it all together. This is um definitely my loudest ensemble, but I think it works. It works, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

And I think uh people don't know Reagan's laughing over there.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Reagan, do you think it works?

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Yeah, I think it works.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Reagan thinks I look like an idiot. Thanks, Reagan. I can I read that on her face.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

I think this is one of the biggest truths people need to hear, especially the younger people, is dress to impress. Dress up. It's an interview. Show up like you want the job, show up like you want to make an impression. I mean, the amount of people we interview for our company, and we're interviewing people typically two to maybe eight years out of college. We do a phone call and then a virtual. So they see me like this in my office, and then they come in dress like shit.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

And I'm almost like, you see how I dress, you see how my team dresses on the virtual. You'd think you would put it together and show up, okay. He's in a suit, he's in a tie, you know, his his That's an easy no, right there, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, it's such an easy no. And it almost it becomes a matter of culture of can they show up? Do they fit who we are?

SPEAKER_02 8:08

Yeah. And I think um Listen, I'm okay with people doing that. You know why? Saves me time. Yeah, I am the king of the 10-minute interview. If you come into my office and you have a 10-minute interview, I might say something like, Well, I appreciate you coming in. We're just doing first rounds right now, we're gonna get back to people and we'll let you know who's in the second round. I haven't done this in a long time, but yeah, I used to be a total jerk about this stuff because if I'm meeting somebody and I'm sitting there saying, Why am I gonna invest an hour of my time for this person who didn't invest their own time to prep for this interview? I don't owe them anything. They didn't invest anything. Why should I? And I'm like, I just want to be done. I've actually ended interviews in 15 minutes before and I've said, listen, you seem like a nice person. I just want to let you know I'm not gonna hire you. I want to tell you why if you want to know. And they say, Well, yeah, yeah, I'd I'd like to know. Well, first of all, you didn't prepare. You weren't prepared for this interview at all. You didn't dress for this interview at all. By the way, most people I tell the truth to, how do you think they react, Reagan?

SPEAKER_00 9:10

They probably pretend that they're listening and they like it, but they're gonna get defensive.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Yeah, they actually don't like it. They usually don't show that they're not liking it, but they don't like it. Rarely have I've gotten the email after the fact, thank you so much for that. Thank you so much. This just happened recently. We actually flew somebody out to interview with one of our companies. The person showed up in a suit, didn't look very good, very unkempt, um, no tie. We didn't care about that. That's fine. Most of our places don't wear, most of our companies aren't wearing ties, and a really casual shirt. They didn't look good, they didn't look the part. Um they also didn't really prepare well. They didn't bring this. By the way, don't walk into an interview without something to write on. You're basically assuming or you're showing the other person that nothing they say is gonna be important, nothing they say you're gonna want to take away. I don't go to meetings without something like this because I want to show whoever I'm meeting with there's a chance they're gonna say something that I'm gonna want to write down that I think is important.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

And another thing people miss is you're writing down things that you're gonna put in your follow-up email. So it's personalized and it's not a copy paste, and you can reflect it. Too many times people don't write anything down. They don't come prepared to be prepared. And they try to write a follow-up email, which maybe 1% of people actually do, but they don't have anything to put in.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

All right, let's get let's get back to the improv thing, the yes and okay. What was the first one you started with? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Dressing, showing up ready to impress, dressed to impress.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Okay, and I'm gonna say something. I'm gonna add something. So we're gonna go through and Reagan count this. That's number one. Maybe we'll get to 10. I don't know. This could be a top seven and a half, but we'll try for 10. So the next one, research everybody you're gonna meet with. Now somebody says, Well, I don't know who I'm gonna meet with. Reagan, when you schedule interviews internally in my company, in our company, do you know who everybody's gonna meet with?

SPEAKER_00 11:06

I do, yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Would they be able to call you and say, can you let me know everybody I'm gonna meet with?

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

Could they look those people up and research them?

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Yeah, on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Yeah, so easy. I've got even a better easier one. Look at the invite that you get sent by HR or whoever's setting up the interview. Every single person you're meeting with's email is there.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's easy too. By the way, this other person that we said no to didn't follow up with emails for anybody. There was no follow-up email except for one person. They sent their expense report to the company and they said, Hey, thanks very much for arranging everything. Here's my expense report. And when they got called out on not sending a follow-up note, they said, Well, I followed up with so-and-so. And it's like, well, why didn't you follow up with everybody you interviewed with?

SPEAKER_01 11:48

You sent them the bill.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Yeah, they sent us the bill. And the person, the president of that division said, Well, why didn't you follow up with the people you met? Well, I didn't have their emails. Well, you had this person's. Why didn't you just ask? Reagan, if somebody calls you and says, Can I have the emails of everybody I met with, what would you say?

SPEAKER_00 12:04

I would send them their emails.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

Yeah, you're mean sometimes. Maybe they were afraid of you. Did you have your be afraid of me look like the one you have right now? Me? Yeah. Reagan's sweet, but sometimes she has that scary look, you want to run.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

For people earlier on in their careers, what should they put in a thank you email?

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Oh, I love that. So one of the things Mitch said, if you take notes, I look at a thank you email as a trial close. And again, I'm a sales guy, right? So what does a trial close mean? It means that you came in, you interviewed, the job has not been awarded to somebody else, and you have not been rejected for the job. The sale is still open. It is still live, it is still ongoing. So one of the things you do with every person you met with is try to write a note about something they said that was important to them. And by the way, ask everybody a question. That's number three. Ask everybody a question. So, number one, dress well. Number two, know who you're going to interview with and do the research. Number three, ask everybody a question. Even if you're asking the same question, you've been here five years. What keeps you here? I'm sure you've had other job offers. Why are you still here? Ask that question to everybody. You'll get a different answer from everybody. And when you follow up in your email, Reagan, to answer your question, put some notes in there about what you learned from them and make a point about something else. By the way, if they asked you a question and you don't feel like your answer was great, say it in the email. By the way, I really appreciated you asking me this question. I wasn't totally prepared for it. And I thought about it later. If I had more time to think about it, I would have said this. This is how I feel. So hopefully that helps clear up an answer to the question that you asked. Trial close. Still an opportunity. Keep the sale open. All right. How many do we have? Are we at three? Three. Three. Mitch, number four.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

And yeah, and uh, I think, you know, we talked about the follow up people. That one's huge. I think another one is be aggressive, right? People are sitting there applying to hundreds of jobs a day, waiting for something to hit. Nobody takes action. Almost nobody actually says, I'm gonna go map out the companies that I want to work for and figure out how to open that door. And this is what I took that cohort of people through for about eight weeks was how to actually go out and get a job. Like you're a salesperson, you're the product. You got to go out and sell yourself, and you got to show companies how you can bring value to them.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Okay, I like that. So, but I want to stay on top topic here. We're talking about you're interviewing for a company, right? So, so this is one of the companies that you've identified you want to get into. Number one, dress the part, number two, do the research, number three, follow up, and number four, identify.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Maybe I'm gonna- I didn't know we're talking about interviewing. I thought we were just talking about just general truths about finding a job.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Okay, all right. That's that's a number four. I'll take that. Reagan, will you take that? Does that pass?

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Mitch, will you take that?

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Yeah, I think so. Because I want to come up with another fourth. All right, I'll come up with this. So is it me now? The ball's been handed. The ping pong is over on my side of the table. Okay, number five. I'm gonna go back to uh you're interviewing with that company. Um, I'm gonna do one other thing. I'm gonna handwrite, I'm gonna, I'm gonna email thank you notes to everybody I interviewed with that evening. Not right away, but that evening. I'm not gonna wait a day. I'm gonna do it still while it's there, hot in everybody's heads, because if you wait too long, people are wondering if you're gonna follow up at all. I don't want them to wonder that, but I also don't want them thinking if you left the office at two in the afternoon and you email by 2 30, that's like, whoa, that's it. Email that night, right? But, and here's the end, do a handwritten thank you note. You know why? How long does a mail take these days? If you're interviewing for a local company, 24 hours probably. It could, but if somebody's not coming in, right? You mail that the next day, two days later, three days later, four days later, they're getting it. I call this a billboard. You're driving down the freeway, you see a billboard, it says In N Out Burger. What do you want?

SPEAKER_01 16:05

In and out.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Yeah, exactly. This is what you want. Use this billboard, do a handwritten thank you note, and do something different than what you said in your email note. It could be shorter. Hey, I just want to tell you how much I appreciate the time you spent and how candid you were with your comments about XYZ. I remain very excited about the opportunity with your company, and I want you to know I'm available whenever you want to chat about things. I hope you and I become co-workers. Something like that. You know, Reagan's rolling her eyes at me. Sounds like a love letter. You like it, Reagan?

SPEAKER_00 16:38

I think that's good. Yeah. Don't put hearts.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Don't do a handwritten thank you note.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Will that turn people off? In today's world, people you gotta think, people have changed, right? I think if you want a top job from a great company, they'll appreciate it. A lot of leaders out there that aren't great leaders or aren't great companies, or those kind of things can make someone feel a certain type of way.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Reagan, what did I show you I got from my client last week?

SPEAKER_00 17:04

A book.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

A book and what else?

SPEAKER_00 17:07

A handwritten note.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Handwritten note. This is from the CEO of one of my clients who took the time to do this. People, this is a lost art. It's an opportunity to stand out. How many people send you handwritten thank you notes after the interview with your company, Mitch?

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Zero.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Yeah. Almost none. I can't tell you how few I get anymore. It is such an easy way to differentiate yourself. Reagan, if it's not necessary, is it?

SPEAKER_00 17:34

No.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Okay. Are you gonna lose points by doing it?

SPEAKER_00 17:37

No.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

So all you have is potential upside.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

One thing I'll share is know your audience, right? If you're the CEO, that stuff works for you. I also think if you're if your boss that you're interviewing for is 35, they might not give a shit. They won't give a shit, but will it turn them off? It might not. I don't think it hurts. That's but I think but I think you could do something similar that speaks to that person better.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Okay, I want to speak to what you're saying. So we're gonna go outside of our how many are we up to on our list?

SPEAKER_00 18:05

We're at four.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

We're at four. Okay. I'm gonna go outside the list for a minute. I'm gonna speak to something. There are two things that happen in an interview. Number one, you earn points. Actually, I guess there's three things. Number two, you don't lose points. And number three is you lose points. You do things in the process to lose points. Coming up, showing up unprepared, you're gonna lose points. Coming in looking horrible, you're gonna lose points, right? Coming in looking good, you might not gain points, but you're not gonna lose points. Yeah. Writing a handwritten thank you note, are you gonna lose points, Mitch? No. Are you gonna gain points? Potentially. Yeah. So do it. Anything that you could potentially win, but not lose, do go above and beyond. Okay, we're at four. That's it. Jeez, this is gonna be like a four-episode podcast. Okay, number five. You're the end is over to you.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Yeah, I think if we're focusing on the interview process specifically, uh, interview like you already have a job you love. You're just trying to figure out if this one's better.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Ooh, I like that. I call that the abundance mentality.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

It is, and this is where we talked about last week.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

By the way, is this dating advice as well? Like when you have a girlfriend, or you it works, it works in all channels.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Easy from my experience. Easy, easy. This is one of the things I learned with the cohort of people I was coaching was they were scarce. They'd been out of work, they needed money, they needed to find work. And that was showing up in how they interviewed and how they followed up and how they did everything. And it stopped feeling like they could add value to the company and more that they needed the company. And that type of follow-up, in my opinion, rubs people the wrong way.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Yeah, I uh it's funny. I uh I've had this happen twice. Once we were buying a house and I worked with a realtor who I felt like needed us to buy a house to put food on the table. And it really made me uncomfortable because I didn't want to make a mistake. It was our first house, and it was really a pushy environment. And I'm like, whoa, I I can't do this. I I need somebody consultative. And so we ended up not working with that person because they had what I call the scarcity mentality versus the abundance mentality, it turned us off.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

So I agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Okay. And one thing in addition, that's how you end up in a job you actually want, because now you're actually qualifying them. Not only does it help you be more attractive to the hiring or interviewer or hiring manager, but it also allows you to better filter out the noise from the kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

I'm gonna go deeper on this, miss. Yeah, I'm gonna challenge you on this one. Um if I am scarce, if I need a job, if I'm running out of money, how do I fake that?

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Yeah, I think you have to look within and say at the end of the day, I want something that I'm gonna wake up every day and love what I do. And that's my single priority. And I know that if I focus on that, everything else will come. It's a bit of faith. It's like having a business. Sometimes shit's hard, but you have to believe that there's light at the end of the tunnel and you'll figure out a way out.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Yeah, I always say I'm 90 days away from bankruptcy because when we sell a search, we get paid over 90 days. And like, yeah, I can't tell you actually, one of our biggest builders in the company, he's gonna probably build $4 million this year. He said to me today, he's like, I might have sold my last search. I'm like, if I had a dollar for every time you said that over the last 25 years, I think that I'd have a thousand dollars. He's like, Yeah, and tomorrow I'll probably book five searches. You never know. Hey, I'm gonna challenge you. You said, I think you have to want to feel something like this. I think you have to want to deserve it.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

I think you have to think that you deserve to have the right job and you deserve to be sought after by somebody. And that's part of that mindset of putting yourself in a position of being worthy, right? I think a lot of people don't have that because they're either insecure, um, they Feel somewhat inferior, they have imposter syndrome, and they just want to be wanted. You know, I see this with uh relationships too from time to time. I have met uh people that I think aim low. And I see somebody and I get to know them, and then I see their partner, and I'm like, hmm, I didn't see that coming. I think they aim low, and it makes me feel like maybe they suffer some from self-esteem. I'm gonna tell you if you feel like you suffer from some self-esteem issues, see if you can resolve that before you get into this process.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

I think if you can resolve that, it's gonna change the way you show up.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

I agree with you completely.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

We're getting very therapeutic here. I know. This has become a coaching podcast. Is this a dating show? Jesus. I've been married for 33 years. Reagan's basically been married for 33 years.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

At 25 years old.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

At 25 years old.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Uh I'm divorced, so you might you might not want to take my advice.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Take the dating advice from him, take the marriage advice from us. Um, okay, so what are we at? Five? I think so, yeah. Five. Okay, so I'm gonna say, so is it over to me? The ping pong ball is back on my side of the court here. Okay, I am going to say number six is do something unique and memorable. This is the follow-up thing. Again, I said in the last time when your follow-up is uh you're still in the game. When nobody's been given the job and you have not been rejected, the sale is still open. It's still going. The game is still on. It's live. There's still time on the clock, people. Don't let time run out before you do something unique. What are you gonna do? You're gonna throw a flea flicker. Do you know what a flea flicker is? Mitch is not a big football guy. No. He used to play high school football. I don't understand. Anyway, you're gonna throw some kind of crazy ass play that's gonna get you noticed. I want to give this, Reagan. I don't know if I ever told you the story. There was a friend of mine, he was a COO of a company. I did some work for him. I got to know him, and I was telling him a little bit about not this idea, but our idea for Project Activate, the dream job boot camp that we had years ago, and we helped a lot of people land their dream jobs. And I was telling this story, and he told me a story about his daughter. Reagan, is this sounding familiar?

SPEAKER_00 24:16

No.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Mitch, is this sounding familiar?

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Okay. His story was this: she came out of college, she was a marketing major, she wanted to work for a marketing agency. She went in and she had an interview with them, and then her last interview was a group interview with five different people. And one of the questions they asked her was this What brand do you most align with? And she said, Coca-Cola. And she was honest. She said, Listen, I'm a health nut. I don't drink Coca-Cola. Sorry, Coke, I don't drink it, but the brand identity appeals to me from a lifestyle perspective based on their advertisements, the ads that they post, the things that they do during sporting events and things like that. It's not just about the drink, it's about the lifestyle that I can have based on that brand. And she's a lifestyle type person. And they like that answer. And so, in her follow-up, the next day, she went out and bought five old school Coke bottles filled with Coke, by the way. Not cocaine, but Coke, filled with Coca-Cola, and she handwrote thank you notes and taped one to each bottle, brought them in in a little basket, brought them to the receptionist and said, Hey, these are for the people I interviewed with yesterday. Would you mind being able to make sure that each one of these people gets it? I wrote their name on these cards. And she had it delivered to them. And it talked about, I really appreciated you asking that question. It shows that what you believe in is the same thing I believe in, which is that we should be selling a lifestyle vision to people with our customers. And me kind of diving into that whole Coca-Cola idea got me back to that. I'd like to be a part of this agency. She ended up getting the job. But how many people would do that? Reagan, have you ever heard of a story like that?

SPEAKER_00 26:15

No, I haven't.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Reagan, how old are you?

SPEAKER_00 26:18

25.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

How long ago did you graduate college?

SPEAKER_00 26:20

See, three years ago now.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Three years. Okay. So you have a lot of friends that have looked for jobs over that time, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Do you hear stories like this?

SPEAKER_00 26:28

No.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Nobody does this shit. People do this stuff. I know it sounds crazy, but do it. Who cares? Especially if you're trying to stand out. Mitch, how many people stand out? Almost nobody. Yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Do one little thing. Just to give you an idea, what stands out to us when we're hiring for our company is following up with an email. Yeah. That's how low the bar is in today's world.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

Isn't that crazy? It's the same in our company, by the way, because we interviewed somebody recently who had a nice follow-up email. And I don't think this person's gonna get the job from us, but I sent a note to the people that interviewed this person. I said, Well, at least they followed up. And somebody else came back and said, Isn't that bar a little bit low? But it's too bad because it truly is. No, you're absolutely right. Okay, was that number six, Reagan?

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Do something unique. Okay, let's come up with a number seven, Mitch. I'm trying to get this job at this company. What do I do?

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Oh, I feel like you guys are missing a big one.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

Ooh, tell us.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Doing your research about the company.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, that tied in, I think, a little bit to doing the research on the person. Yeah. But but it's true, not enough people do it. I've interviewed people who apply for our job, and I do the phone call first because I've learned I'm not investing an hour on Zoom until I've talked to them for 10 minutes on the phone. And people go, What company is this again? And I'm thinking, you apply to our job, you've traded messages with me on LinkedIn to schedule this. You didn't just look at my LinkedIn and open it and look at my company.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

Yeah, that's amazing. Um, Reagan, you have a really good point. And I I think it deserves to have its own point like you made. My first reaction was, I think it's stupid because of course I'm gonna research the company.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

People don't, and I don't think you see those people because they get filtered out interview after interview. Yeah, that's right. So the people that are going to you obviously know what the company is.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

But but here hear me out. I love your idea. I really love your idea, and I want to take it to the nth degree. I want to talk about this for a minute. Give me a night name of a brand that you could maybe work for. Anybody could work for, a brand.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

Viore.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

Okay, Viore. All right. How can I research that company?

SPEAKER_00 28:41

You look at their website. Okay. Their LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

Website, LinkedIn, what else?

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Social media.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

Social media, what else?

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Look at the CEO's LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

Look at the C okay, I got that. What else? I'm going deep here.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Go into their store.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Go to the store. Okay, I have an idea. You go to the store, what are you looking for?

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Product.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

Okay, you're looking at product. What else?

SPEAKER_00 29:02

People.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

People. What about the people?

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Who they're hiring, the type of people they're hiring.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

Yeah. What what job are you applying for at Viore Corporate? This fictional thing. What job?

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Operations.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Okay, what kind of operations? Doing what?

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Accounting.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Accounting. Okay, I love that. I love it. So what else would I be looking for in the store?

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Prices.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

Okay, prices. Why prices? I'm in accounting. Why do I care about prices?

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Numbers.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

Okay, I want to know how my price point is compared to who else? Who am I comparing it to? Who's a competitor? Biggest competitor. Nike? Who else? Aloe? Okay. Who else? I don't even know Alu.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Lulu.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Lulu. Okay. Lulu. I was looking for Lulu. And so I want to see how my price point is compared to Lulu. I also might want to see what are my point of sale systems. Do they take cash? Does Viori take cash?

SPEAKER_00 29:57

I actually have no idea.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

Okay. So maybe they take credit card. I can know what my credit card charges are, right? There's cart charges to process credit cards. I could look at price points, see how those I how those compare to other companies. I could look at margins. I could start going really deep on this, right? How many people do you think do that that apply for a job in accounting at Viore?

SPEAKER_00 30:20

That's a little much. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

I have a real world.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

Why is that much? Hang on. Why is that much? Mitch, I want to get to your real world in a minute, but I want to ask Reagan, why is that much?

SPEAKER_00 30:30

I don't think you need to go into the store and see if they take credit or cash.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Why not? What if 80% benefit? What if 80% of their charges are credit and 20% are cash? And every credit card charge to the company is 3%. They lose 3% of their revenue to a credit card. I just want to know. Why not know? What if I gave a discount for cash or I gave a discount for debit? Have you ever seen that anywhere?

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

Yeah, I'm starting to see that. So what if I brought that idea in and said, hey, have you guys ever thought about this? Would that make me unique potentially as a candidate?

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Yeah, it would.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

But I'd have to do my research to know that. By the way, I was at your store in Fashion Island. I asked them what percent are sales from credit card, what percent are cash, what percent are debit. Here's what they told me. Here's my point with this. We lost a search once. It's a sob story. Do you guys want to hear it?

SPEAKER_01 31:24

No.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Reagan says no, Mitch says no. Guess what? I'm going to tell you really quickly anyway. We lost a search once. It was to a company that made an automotive aftermarket product. And the person who lost the search in the company told me this story afterwards, said, I got outsold. And I said, Why'd you get outsold? He said, The guy that won the search actually went to a handful of auto dealers that sell the product and asked them about the product. How do they like it? How do the customers like it? How do they like the price point? How do they like the quality? What's the service of the manufacturer, the company that he was trying to get a search from? What is their service level? If you had anything you would change about this company, what would you change? And when he went in to pitch the search, he had all that data. Who does that? Who does that, Mitch? Almost nobody. Almost nobody. So why not? Okay, what number was that?

SPEAKER_00 32:17

See, that was a good one.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

That was a good one. You were right.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

I know.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

We hated it at first, but we ended up loving it. Okay, Mitch, you had something you want to say.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Well, I don't want to keep going on the same tangent, but I thought I'd share a real-world example of this happening.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

We don't have time for it. But go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

We had a VP of uh contact center for credit union, and before one of the final rounds, they called into the contact center, walked into the branch, essentially did the same thing you talked about for Viore, but started to understand how their sales process worked, how customer service worked, and came in with almost an audit of their contact center and their customer service center and presented to the CEO and impressed everybody. How did it work out for them? They got the job.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

See, that's the thing. How many other people that you interviewed that you sent forward did that? Not one. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Just do this, people. People don't think about it. And especially the more senior you get, I think there's less people involved, but you have a bigger opportunity to stand out and you're getting paid at a much higher level to create, as you love to say, outcomes.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

So go in and pitch the outcomes you think you can create based on what you learned.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Reagan, do we have time for one more story about the same point that we want to make for the seventh time? You know how much I like to make the same point seven times, right? Can I just come on, Reagan?

SPEAKER_00 33:30

No, let's move on to the I want to do, can I just do one more?

SPEAKER_02 33:32

I'm just gonna do this one more. So we sold a search once to a company that made work gloves, and they were selling it at hardware stores. And when we went in for the pitch, the guy that I went in with out of LA, he said, I'll meet you at XY, you know, 15 minutes before the meeting. Uh it was like at two o'clock in the afternoon. And we'd show up at the meeting and I said, Hey, are you prepared? He goes, Yeah, I've got this document and this. And by the way, I just spent two hours at a hardware store a couple miles away watching people buy these gloves, try on these gloves, test them out. I'm like, You did what? And he goes, Yeah, I just spent two hours. I told the guy who owned the store, I'm not here to rob you. I just want, I'm not casing the joint. I just want to see, I'm I'm talking to this company. And the owner of the store said, Oh, we're gonna like a test bed for that company because they're based just a couple miles away. So they come into our store and they test new products with us and our customers. And so he got all this information from the owner of the hardware store. And then he sat there for a couple hours and watched people try things on. And I told him, I said, dude, you need to tell that story when we sit down with the CEO. And I'm telling you what, the CEO was blown away because he talked about how people who women would try on this. Why? Well, he's like, I know it's a plumbing product and they're not probably doing plumbing, but they use it. And I asked these women, oh, I want to use it as a canoper to open jars because it's a rubber glove. He's like, Oh, okay, that's kind of cool. So you look at use cases for things. All right, I I know I've bored Reagan now, so we'll move on.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

I'm actually laughing because uh you guys just talked for 10 minutes about one thing.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

It's the one topic we didn't even bring up. All right, but this might have been the most important thing. And again, we go back to what Reagan originally said, which I thought was stupid, but turns out to be very, very smart. Do what Reagan said, research the company, but don't just look at the website. Everybody does. How many people look at the website, Mitch? Everybody, everybody. That's basic. Guys, above and beyond. That's the theme of this podcast. Above and beyond. Maybe we'll put that in the title of the podcast. Go above and beyond. Okay. What are we at? Seven?

SPEAKER_00 35:37

Mm-hmm. All right. I think we have time for one more.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Mitch, I've got to get one if he lets me talk. All right, you guys. Um don't give up. And this is a hard truth because most people get rejected and they accept rejection. Uh, and I have a story to back this up. But when you get rejected for something that you know you were qualified for and you ask for feedback and it doesn't make sense, push back a little bit. Uh, most people just they hear a little bit of objection and they cower down. Most people don't sell themselves back into the job. And I have an example of one of the guys I was coaching who interviewed with HR and was screened out because he had three years of experience. The job description said five. But he got an interview. And by the way, he got the interview because I had him cold email the director for his function, which I believe was director of enterprise account management. So the hiring manager. He he emailed the hiring manager, and the hiring manager said, Great, I'll interview you, but you got to go through our process, talk to HR. HR rejected him because he had three years of experience, not five. Uh, so I helped him craft an email back to the director. And believe it or not, two weeks later, he had a call directly with the director because he pushed back and sold value and said, Hey, I understand if if that's critical. And I know I don't meet that that exact uh experience level in the job description, but I know there's value I can add. He came from Amazon. I had him kind of logo drop Amazon and the training and how he had more than three years of experience at other companies because coming from Amazon and their training and their environment. Uh, and he ended up getting his foot back in the door. I don't think people think like that. And I think if you are specific about the jobs you're interviewing for and you really want it, go all out for it.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

Yeah, you know, it's it's interesting. The point you're making, I often tell people this when we write a job description and we write a section called Skills, Skill Set and Experience Required. We're guessing, we're just writing what we think the ideal candidate will need to deliver the outcomes we want them to deliver. But at the end of the day, it's the outcomes they have to deliver, not their experience. We we don't hire for their experience, we hire for the outcomes. That's the reason we're making this hire, but we might use as a hiring criteria their experience. Being so hard and fast, it doesn't make sense. What makes more sense is can this person do the job? I know they've only done it for three years, but I think they're the best qualified. Compared to somebody who's done it for six years, I like the three-year person better. Reagan, what have I told you about you being my EA?

SPEAKER_00 38:15

You better hope no other past EAs listen to this episode.

SPEAKER_02 38:19

But what have I told you? What have I told you?

SPEAKER_00 38:21

I am the best EA he's ever had. Yeah. Zero experience. Zero.

SPEAKER_02 38:27

Zero experience. She's got the energy, she's got the aptitude, she's got the competence to do it, and she didn't have the experience. I would say this. Here's another thing I'm gonna I'm gonna leave a tidbit for everybody. Are we are we almost done with this episode? Okay. I want to leave this tidbit. I tell this to companies, there are three things that you can use in your hiring criteria. There is price, how much I'm gonna pay for this person to work here, there is quality, what's the quality of the person, right? Do I think they're very, very high quality? Do I think they're an A? And their experience, right? Do they have that requisite five years experience I'm looking for, 10 years, blah, blah, blah? But you can only have two. You can't have all three. You can't have a price point that is a limiter, potentially, and also get quality and experience. So when I tell people, and a lot of companies have a price point because they have these things called pay equity. I can't pay more than this because it's gonna screw up my pay equity with my other employees. So this is where we cap out. How often do you hear that, Mitch?

SPEAKER_01 39:28

More often than we should.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

I know it's crazy. You want to get great talent, you got to pay up for great talent, but you have this, these, these issues, these limiters. But it is a fact of life. So one of the things I tell companies is if you're not willing to pay for the greatest quality and greatest experience and price is a factor, then you can only pick one of the other two, quality or experience. Which one do you think I tell them to pick?

SPEAKER_01 39:51

Quality.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

Yeah. I mean, how bad would it be if I said, listen, get the person who has all the experience on their resume, but they're not very high quality, you know? But you can get them cheap.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

And you'd be shocked at how many companies actually would pick that when they're dealt with the option themselves.

SPEAKER_02 40:06

Isn't that crazy?

SPEAKER_01 40:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:07

It's absolutely crazy. They take the safe bet because they check boxes based on experience. They take the safe and and and inexpensive bet because they check the box based on price, and that company doesn't move. They don't go forward because they chose the wrong things. So in this episode, we want to leave you with this be memorable, be different, be unique, stand out. Be bold. Don't give up. What else, Mitch? Back to you.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

Yeah, be be bold. Do the things nobody else is thinking about doing that makes you uncomfortable because that's how you get noticed in today's world.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

Hey, make this an amazing week. Do something incredible this week. Send us a note, send us an email on questions that you have. We want to address your questions on our podcast.