Pritesh:
[0:02] Welcome to another episode of operation education. I'm Pritesh Raichura.

Neena:
[0:07] I'm Neena Sharma. So, Pritesh, how are you doing? Good weekend.

Pritesh:
[0:18] Oh, it was epic. It was my best friend's wedding and we had a blast. It was so good.

Neena:
[0:25] Oh my gosh, this is a wedding theme because I did not go to a wedding, but I did go wedding dress shopping for my best friend who's getting married next year.

Pritesh:
[0:37] What a coincidence. Both best friends, weddings. I love it.

Neena:
[0:42] It's kind of summer, it's like wedding season vibes yes.

Pritesh:
[0:45] Yes how exciting so i have recently been in touch with one of our listeners and we were talking about your scenario last week can you just remind our listeners what your scenario was

Neena:
[1:00] Yes so you're a classroom teacher who's doing their best but their learners are just very passive so they're just scraping by the lessons doing the bare, minimum really slouched and slump postures, very reluctant to get their hands up straight let alone actually voluntarily contribute to the lesson no overtly explicit bad behavior but just not enough motivation and buy-in.

Pritesh:
[1:31] So one of our listeners was saying that But they had some visitors recently who shared with them that their kids are very compliant. But she wasn't sure if it was a compliment or a backhanded compliment. And I kind of get that because... So compliant is not the word that's used to describe the most positive. It's not the most positive description of a classroom because it suggests that there's the implicit suggestion is there's not buy in that the kids aren't motivated to go kind of really push themselves and all that kind of stuff. But you were saying that it's worth acknowledging that compliance is worth acknowledging in some way.

Neena:
[2:12] Yeah, I think so. I think you're right. like I can imagine why that listener felt it was a backhanded compliment or it's almost kind of felt like it's a bit of a dirty word but actually especially for a school that's been really struggling with challenges of behavior and so forth to get to a position where you know classrooms are largely disruption free and there's a basic level of compliance like that is no mean feat and I think that is definitely an accomplishment and that needs to be recognized and acknowledged but also being aware that that's kind of the foundation or the springboard from which everything else emanates um because for kids to achieve their full potential and truly be the very best versions of themselves then they need to be kind of driven by a deeper motivation and that's what we refer to as buy-in don't

Neena:
[3:03] we so that's the dream or like you know that's the that's the ideal goal yeah.

Pritesh:
[3:08] And i think it's important to remember that that the the idea of really fulfilling their potential is the ultimate end goal and i think that i think lots of listeners will this this idea will resonate with them because in so many classrooms that i visit it's so many leaders that i speak to they share this exact dilemma uh so i think it's definitely one that is worth

Neena:
[3:32] Exploring. So what do you think then? What's your answer for moving from kind of compliance to buy-in, making passive learners a lot more engaged?

Pritesh:
[3:44] I like to think about the answer to this question in two categories. There's two elements to it. One is you have to win the hearts of the pupils as a classroom teacher, but also for the leaders to create a culture where you're winning the hearts of the pupils in that school. And then we've got this idea of winning minds as well.

Neena:
[4:06] OK. I love those two phrases. What do they actually both mean? So let's kind of start. You said winning hearts first. What does that mean?

Pritesh:
[4:17] So winning hearts for me means the pupils love being in their lessons. The teachers and the school is doing lots to foster a love of the subject that the kids are experiencing in their classrooms. But they fundamentally respect their teachers so much that they will work hard for their teachers and feel inspired to go and push themselves even if they might find a subject difficult a part of a lesson hard they'll go above and beyond so that kind of describes the kind of what what i mean by winning hearts there's good buy-in from the kids they want to impress their teacher they're desperate to make their teacher proud of them. That's what I mean by winning hearts.

Neena:
[5:06] So what can we as teachers do, like kind of actually concrete steps or strategies

Neena:
[5:12] to generate that level of buying? So to win the hearts of our kids?

Pritesh:
[5:17] I think there's lots of strategies and I think we could talk for hours and hours about each different strategies. But if I was to pick maybe one or two, I would say one would be, Making sure that we praise the pupils loads, like really genuine, warm, heartfelt praise. And the second thing I would say is get the pupils to give, make sure the pupils have, they believe from you, their teacher, that you enjoy being there with them and that you love the subject that you are delivering. Because fundamentally, if you emanate a love for them and a love for the subject, then that has to be the foundation of making sure that we are winning the hearts of our pupils.

Neena:
[6:07] Okay, love that. And then winning minds. What does that mean? And how does that compare or contrast to hearts?

Pritesh:
[6:15] So winning minds means that pupils leave each lesson having more knowledge and feeling more competent in your subject. That means they feel and experience lots of success in the lesson and their understanding improves as a result of your great teaching. So focusing on excellent teaching. And in many ways that plays into the winning hearts, because if they understand more and they feel more intelligent, then they will be more bought in and you are winning their hearts as well. So they kind of there's an interplay between the two.

Neena:
[6:53] Love that.

Pritesh:
[6:54] So i actually think yeah what do you think what are your thoughts on on getting from compliance to getting buy-in what's your what yeah what do you think about winning hearts and winning minds is there

Neena:
[7:06] Anything else there no i think i agree i agree with a lot of what you've said i like the way you've broken it down in terms of hearts and minds i'm kind of thinking we've got to consider engaging like their uh, you know their brains and kind of the logic and the rationale and all that stuff but also tapping into like the feeling and the emotion as well and these two things i think kind of go hand in hand and also can like mutually reinforce each other um, as well and i think fundamentally it comes down to ideas such as kind of joy,

Neena:
[7:39] and success and all of that kind of jazz as well yeah.

Pritesh:
[7:43] Joy and success i think i i actually this idea of joy in the classroom, I want to really talk about today. And I actually think let's dedicate today's episode to warmth, praise, and all that kind of stuff. In fact, specifically, one of the things I've been thinking a lot about recently is I'm going to call it And giving warm, specific, named praise. That is what this episode is about.

Neena:
[8:12] So not just any old praise.

Pritesh:
[8:14] Not just any old praise.

Neena:
[8:15] No, no.

Pritesh:
[8:16] Warm, specific, named praise. It's got a rhythm to it, doesn't it?

Neena:
[8:21] Yes, I love it. A little list of three to describe that praise.

Pritesh:
[8:25] Yes, the magic three.

Neena:
[8:27] We know three is the magic number. Yes. All right.

Pritesh:
[8:31] So let's dive into it. in classic operation education style i'm going to channel my inner actor and i'm going to give an example and well non-example first of the kinds of praise that i've seen in classrooms and what the alternative is and you can help us unpick which is better why okay it might be pretty obvious which is better hopefully depending on my acting skills this

Neena:
[8:56] Is it let's see.

Pritesh:
[8:58] So first example i shan't reveal this is a non-example or an example no

Neena:
[9:03] Let's leave up to the listeners to.

Pritesh:
[9:04] Decide what a mystery yeah um okay so example one let's say people just answer the question and we say yep good next question uh josh yeah great okay so another question yeah good okay so let's all move on to task number three so that's my first example now second example exciting If we hear a great answer. Wow, that was an absolutely word perfect answer, Grace. So impressed with you. Okay, next question. Does anyone know? Yes, Nat. Oh, Nat, I could not have said it better myself. Well done, top man. There we go. Two examples in action. How close am I to winning an Oscar at some point in the future? Is my first question.

Neena:
[10:03] We can return to that question later let's let's park that there for a moment.

Pritesh:
[10:07] Let's build the

Neena:
[10:08] Suspense let's just say no one on this podcast is going to be winning any awards anytime soon or acting awards anyway wow.

Pritesh:
[10:16] I see how it is

Neena:
[10:17] You know it uh what was the quote you've distracted me now i was trying to think of this word for your appalling acting introducing.

Pritesh:
[10:24] Distractions in the

Neena:
[10:25] Classroom this is it we are not distraction free up here no so yeah.

Pritesh:
[10:30] Um okay so what what Unpick those examples, why is one better than the other? Now, I actually think to listeners, it's obvious which one's which, but I actually want us to pause and think, because when I used to teach, I was the stingiest person with praise, you could imagine, because I was terrified that if I praised someone doing something well, they would think that it was extraordinary, and then they would just think, oh, wow, maybe I'm not expected to do this after all, and then they'll stop doing the thing that you praise. And it just could not be further from the truth. I don't know.

Neena:
[11:06] That's so true.

Pritesh:
[11:07] I imagine you're the kind of teacher that didn't do that. And you just praised early on straight away. But I don't know. I might be wrong.

Neena:
[11:13] Yeah. And perhaps excessively, actually. It's like the two extremes, isn't it? Like, yeah, which happened, I think, last week. So I think so. What you're saying is that you were originally quite stingy. I can imagine, obviously, we both have high expectations. but your views were, they really need to like work hard to earn my praise but then it just became, completely unattainable because they would have to i don't know fly to the moon in order to get a well done from mr rightura literally um.

Pritesh:
[11:44] And i maybe not even the moon mars at

Neena:
[11:46] Least yeah exactly or different solar system or whatever um.

Pritesh:
[11:50] Yes are you sure you're not a science

Neena:
[11:52] Teacher i'm a closeted science i mean i've seen enough of your flipping photo synthesis lessons i could probably teach that quite competently uh at least to a very very weak year seven anyway so obviously that's not what we're aiming for to be overly stingy with praise and only praising very rarely and only when kids have massively exceeded our expectations, but conversely we don't want to be giving away praise excessively either, because once we do that, then it just really loses its value and becomes meaningless. But there's definitely a happy medium, I think, that can be reached. And I think that would be good for us to explore today.

Pritesh:
[12:34] Yes. Okay. So let's unpick the first element that I'm calling warm specific named praise. So warm. And this links really nicely to what we're talking about with intonation of voice in our last episode.

Pritesh:
[12:49] How can, why is it important to deliver praise warmly? What does it mean to deliver praise warmly, first of all? And why is that important?

Neena:
[12:56] So warm praise, the reason why it's so important is it's the warmth in it, which you express through your tonal voice, your facial expression. You're demonstrating that you really feel it and then it's genuine and sincere. And again, it's going back to that kind of that feeling and emotion that you want to impart to the kids, particularly if we're talking about at this point winning their hearts. It's that emotional connection. They kind of, it's a visceral feeling or a sense that they kind of, they really get your sense of your approval and the fact that they've impressed you as well.

Pritesh:
[13:34] Yes, it's about the tone of voice. So instead of well done, it's, well, I guess the words well done can come across patronizing if you go too warm with it. But something instead of saying, yeah, great, to say, great answer, I love that. Like the expression with your voice is so important. And I think this is something that, Teachers actually don't realize that they're not being effusive and warm in their praise until they watch a recording back, for example. And I think that it's like I said before, it's such a powerful way to realize this or to have someone give you that feedback to say your praise does not sound sincere or warm. And once teachers realize it, it's almost like it's because we're not thinking about the praise. We're thinking about what question am I asking and oh they've given the answer now let me think about my next question or the next instruction and we just forget but when you realise the power of warm praise you give it the time it's worth and the moment in the classroom it's like that child has just shared a beautiful answer you want to give it the special attention that the answer deserves by giving it wow that was a brilliant answer so impressed with you it doesn't even have to be that long even if it's just brilliant answer love it and you move on is better than a quick brushed

Neena:
[14:56] Acknowledgement yeah.

Pritesh:
[14:58] So warmth is that first

Neena:
[15:00] Element and i think the element but the alignment sorry as well, so we're talking about kind of warmth and we said tonal voice but i think it's kind of firstly it's the words and the language that you use but that needs to be matched with you've talked about tonal voice you modelled kind of lots of expression in that but also through your facial expressions in particular if not your body language you know kind of just um you know even accompanying it with it with a smile because a lot of the time kids won't really um, kind of understand subtleties and that's why we talk about as teachers always being that sort of the exaggerated version or biggest version of yourself because I think that's what really resonates with the kids then so yes Yes, warmth is key and thinking about the words we use, but really that needs to be kind of reinforced through tonal voice and facial expression as well, but in a way which is authentic to you. So what is warm for me authentically might be different to what is warm to you,

Neena:
[16:00] and to, you know, the next teacher, you know, down the corridor as well.

Pritesh:
[16:05] Yes so there has your words your face and your voice have to match but they have to be authentic yes to your personality love it so that's the warmth element of praise then we've got specific so this is a lot of the time when i observe teaching i see generic praise given oh well done oh great stuff that was really good uh yeah i love that that was brilliant that there's a few problems with that what are the problems with that and why is being what do we mean by being specific why is that so useful so important

Neena:
[16:42] I mean firstly before i go into that i'd say it's still fine to have so phrases generic phrases like well done brilliant excellent all of these positive generic phrases, aren't kind of bad or ineffective within themselves I think it's actually useful sometimes to have these stock positive phrases kind of in your toolbox that you can just you know whip out, very quickly but in and of themselves just using those blanket stock phrases that's not going to be effective because there's no really meaning behind that so the kids won't really know kind of what exactly they're being praised for what they've done that is so praiseworthy, and it's almost like perhaps we should have said this from the outset like what is the purpose of praise what is our intention when we are praising the kids and actually it is one of the highest leverage things for, boosting motivation and buy-in right because for that individual student uh they're being recognized and celebrated uh for doing something that deserves that praise so they're going to feel really great it's incentive for them to replicate that behavior so they can impress the teacher again.

Pritesh:
[18:00] And they'll know exactly what it was

Neena:
[18:01] Absolutely because you've been specific but it's also an indicator like a reminder of the expectation to the rest of the class and also incentivizes them or i also want to emulate that behavior so, miss or sir can praise me and i can impress them uh as well but going back to the original point so blanket stock phrases are fine as long as they're accompanied with like the reason that you are praising it adds meaning and gives clarity yes.

Pritesh:
[18:31] And the reason that i've just had i've just kind of had a bit of an epiphany with this the reason why the the specific praise actually leads away from compliance and into buy-in is because it prevents the teacher from having to then nag the people that aren't doing something that they don't want so in a lot of classrooms i hear nagging like if the teacher wants kids to like put their hands out like come on i want to see more hands i want to see more hands and they end up coming across frustrated like you can do that encouragingly and that's good i think i'd recommend that um

Pritesh:
[19:08] But sometimes we can go into nagging territory and what you see when i've given feedback to teachers to say give really specific praise so let's say um there are kids um and we want to encourage a culture where more and more kids are putting their hands up ready to share an answer if we've i've suggested to teachers you say i love the speedy straight arm up uh grace suddenly you get five other kids whose arms shoot up much straighter and they are like desperate to also be recognized and then as the lesson progresses for all the other behaviors you're praising more and more kids are buying into that culture because they also want to be recognized and we're tapping into something here which fundamentally i believe is just crucial and that is pupils want to be recognized and they want to be

Pritesh:
[20:03] Seen and heard in the classroom and what more beautiful way to recognize that than through the praise that their teacher he stood at the front to delivering really wonderful exciting content is going to share with them and that's why it's so effective at going from compliance to buy-in because they want the praise so they will change their behavior to get the praise and that also means we're not lowering the bar we're not lowering our standards so that we can give out more praise that's not what we're saying and if that's what listeners leave this podcast thinking i want to caution against that it's not give just give praise out and make sure everyone is praised it's you're setting a bar and when you then praise that well enough others will rise to meet that high bar and that is high expectations in action and that is buy-in as a movement away from compliance Yes,

Neena:
[20:57] Absolutely. What would you say, though? What if there's a kid or kids in your lesson that you know are quite introverted and lack confidence and don't actually like being singled out or acknowledged publicly, even for positive reasons? How would you be delivering praise to them? Would you be adapting your technique?

Pritesh:
[21:25] That's a really interesting question, because in the 12 years that I've been teaching, I haven't actually come across a child who doesn't buy into that. So I'm trying to think about what kind of reasons might there be where the perception is there that the people doesn't. And I guess part of that is we're not kind of parading the child in front of the rest of the class, you know, getting to stand up, come to the front and say, wow let's give this person a round of applause and suddenly they're like on stage that's not what we're doing we're just highlighting for a moment wow i'm really right i see you i recognize you in that moment and then you're back to your teaching and then the spotlights on someone else and the spotlights on someone else and it's not it's not overbearing in any way it's just that instant quick recognition and honestly that you just see a little smile on their face you see the joy you see the the effect it has and this is not just in my classroom when i've been consciously cultivating and i would say in recent months i've been thinking about this more than i've ever thought about it um and i think the impact it's had particularly because

Pritesh:
[22:39] I'm going to lots of different schools and I'm visiting and I'm teaching in a range of schools with kids I've never met before. So it's become even more important for me. And I've had classes that started off like really chaotically or when I've seen them earlier in the day, really transform within the space of a lesson in front of my eyes. But I've also seen this with staff that I've supported and coached who then develop. And the classroom cultural shift is just phenomenal.

Pritesh:
[23:09] And I've not seen kids that don't enjoy that because it's not overbearing in any way.

Neena:
[23:13] Yeah, okay, great, fantastic. And I know we've talked about the optimal way to deliver that praise and you've broken it down, kind of warm, specific, named, but what type of things would you be praising? Would you expect teachers to praise kids for in a lesson?

Pritesh:
[23:32] Yes, so just to touch on that last bit, the named praise. So when you're specific just make sure you say the name of that pupil so it's clear they're getting the praise and i think you touched on this but i want to emphasize eye contact and smile is so crucial and the kinds of things that i would be praising for range i guess you can they fall into kind of two categories one is for Something that signals that they've been working hard, putting in effort in some way or the other. So that might be effort that they've put in. They've really listened to it, something really clearly understood it. And they've given a beautiful full sentence answer. They've used a key word in their answer that they've shared with the class. They have, you know, if I use lots of turn and talks in the lesson that they have, they're putting in lots of effort. They are speaking to their partner engaging properly in that speaking in full sentences taking turns with their partner these are all things that i explicitly teach them to do and then when they do it i'm praising them so it's that kind of hard work and that effort

Neena:
[24:39] I love that you focus on that word effort as opposed to attainment because effort is always even when it's difficult is always a hundred percent in kids control yes but if you're only focusing on praising for attainment then that's going to disadvantage some kids who struggle in certain subjects you know more than others for example and then that the opportunities for praise might be end up being much more limited and restricted so i love this idea about effort because that's in their control and every like positive behavior for learning signals that effort doesn't it yes.

Pritesh:
[25:16] That's such a good point and it's so important to recognize and for teachers to understand the importance of that because effort as you say is not only within the child's control but it's also like it's if the effort is stronger and better the achievement will take care of itself in time whereas if you focus on achievement you might not necessarily get the effort and i think getting that the right round is so important because if a child it doesn't matter if a child is not so great at a particular subject the only way they will get better is if they put more effort in and over time obviously i have to be using the right strategies but you're gonna have to write the use strategies effortfully so effortfully so i think that's hit the nail on the head i absolutely love that

Neena:
[26:07] Is effortfully a word.

Pritesh:
[26:09] I thought it was. I don't know. Is it not? You're an English teacher.

Neena:
[26:12] I am, but you also like to channel your inner English teacher vibes.

Pritesh:
[26:17] It 100% is now if it wasn't before.

Neena:
[26:20] Okay, let's say you've just coined a new word. Let's go for it.

Pritesh:
[26:24] Right. So, yeah, I think that's one of the most important things. And so you're praising the effort of the kids.

Neena:
[26:31] Yes, okay. And then the second one, because I think you said there are almost kind of two categories for praise.

Pritesh:
[26:38] Yeah. So the other thing is beyond just the effort, and that includes things like effort and efforts in terms of the answers they're giving. But there's also, I guess there's another kind of effort, but it's the effort in terms of the behaviors they're displaying. So lovely, speedy, strong arm up, or I love the way that you're, you're sat up looking so focused, or I love the way that a particular pupil is really demonstrating that they're moving like quickly to do a routine because they want every second of that learning to count or those kinds of things like the more routine stuff effort than the cognitive stuff if

Neena:
[27:14] That makes sense yes okay.

Pritesh:
[27:17] Is there any other category that i've missed

Neena:
[27:18] There no i think i think that kind of makes sense um so if we've broken down in a granular way this idea of like praise is good but it's got to be warm and specific and named, is it worth being even more nuanced and thinking about is there still a distinction in the way you deliver it based on the age of the child or you know the level of ability or any other you know individual characteristics you know about kid like would you uh,

Neena:
[27:53] adapt the praise according to that yeah.

Pritesh:
[27:57] That's a great question so i've worked in secondary settings so the range of ages might be from 11 to 18. And I'd say definitely with younger years, you can be more kind of effusive and exaggerated and say wow you've blown me away with that answer and they love that I guess with some of the older year groups that it might not land as well, depending on the group that you have in front of you. But saying something like, oh, smashed it. That would be like five out of five marks in a GCSE exam. Or something like, goodness me, I sound like a scientist there. Or things like, oh, are you after my job? That was a brilliant answer. What a great explanation. Like something like that, where it's the delivery of that praise is more mature in some way. And that I think lands better with older groups. what do you think?

Neena:
[28:46] Yeah I think you're right I agree with kind of being even more effusive with younger kids I think the approach I take sometimes with older kids is almost, being still absolutely giving praise for all the reasons that we've mentioned, but almost being a bit sort of in an understated or almost nonchalant way because I think that kind of sometimes motivates them to try and work even harder to impress you because they know it's a bit of a challenge to really get like an emotional response from you but maybe that's also to do with like teacher persona in a way I think because I am so, you know some might call me a bit of a drama queen I don't know so, I know right so maybe because I'm generally quite extroverted it's almost like then for me to deliver praise and in a very different way to that just kind of stands out more and I just think in my experience for a lot of like anything like key stage four kids like it just kind of lands better but the fundamental principles are the same that we've discussed but i think, this is almost just like the next level of it i think as a teacher once you've got into that habit of delivering that warm specific named praise and you start to see the positive impacts of it i think it's quite fun and interesting and useful to think about oh let's kind

Neena:
[30:07] of make this even more a bit you know individualized.

Pritesh:
[30:10] Yes. Another element I've just thought that links to praise is introducing a sense of competition and praising the winners of that competition i don't mean that literally but i just mean things like our speediest arm or the straightest arm or are the best pair work in the room goes to so and so really impressed on this turn and talk who's going to impress me the most next time um that kind of thing you're just introducing that playful sense of competition where they they like they like to be better than the person that's next to them their friends their mates in the classroom and just by you saying setting the terms of that competition and saying what i'm looking for today is if the kids have clarity about what you're looking for and it's the competition is on and the praise is there for the winners only you're setting the bar high it's only the winners in that moment who will who will get that praise but you do it for lots of things for all the examples we've given what I found is and is everybody invariably steps up to try and

Pritesh:
[31:20] Earn that praise and you end up just giving so much praise that almost everyone every lesson is acknowledged for something or the other um and so it's a really powerful way to just build in so much more recognition into the classroom like competition is a is a it's a playful but fun vibe to add that increases the likelihood that we as the teacher are going to give more praise as well

Neena:
[31:44] Yeah for sure and because it's warm precise but also named does that mean the praise you deliver will always be targeted at individual students or could you actually praise you know i think you mentioned like you know great pair work or whatever would you praise a whole section of the room or the whole class what your thoughts on.

Pritesh:
[32:04] That i think you can do that occasionally but only if you're kind of doing that to build a sense of team in the room um as more generally when i hear things like well then guys all of you are doing brilliantly right now it just doesn't land well as well as picking out individuals uh because it's not particularly motivating for the teacher to always say everyone's doing a fantastic job we're all doing brilliantly it's not actually cause it's not really going to win hearts as much as lots of individual recognition over time so i'd say generally avoid it maybe occasionally if you're building a sense of team like wow team we are working so hard today i'm so impressed let's move on to something more challenging that can feel really good because again it's more about the sense of challenge what we as a team have accomplished but if it's very generic everyone's doing such a great job what does that really mean who's going to feel motivated by that so i think there's a distinction there with regards to the specificity of the praise right it's now time for the segment of our episode where we present a scenario to ponder over the course of the week and for us to return to in our next episode nina what is our scenario for this week

Neena:
[33:19] So on reflection after some of my lessons I've realized that I tend to give praise to the same students or the same type of students and actually there's a lot of quieter children in the room that I feel there just aren't the opportunities for me to give praise to them what can I do.

Pritesh:
[33:44] Oh next time on operation education if you would like to share your answers to the scenario slash question or even want to suggest a topic for a future episode of operation education then get in touch email me on Pritesh at bunsonblue.com if your school would like high quality CPD then get in touch with me via BunsenBlue.com forward slash CPD. Operation Education is a Bunsen Blue production.