Ep 001: Getting Your Class' Attention

Welcome to the very first episode of Operation Education, the brand new podcast discussing all things pedagogy, classroom culture, school leadership and the wider educational landscape.

In this week's episode:

It's not just what you say to your pupils but how you say it that matters. Pritesh Raichura and Neena Sharma discuss the power of voice in the classroom at getting attention. This leads to a discussion about teacher authority and joy in schools.

Time stamps:

0:28  Launching Operation Education
4:39  Cultivating School Culture
9:00  Why Attention Matters
17:29  Crafting Clear Call Signals
22:15  Voice Shapes the Cue
30:39  Authority in the Classroom
37:58  Scanning and Praise
39:10  Next Episode Scenario

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Hosts: Pritesh Raichura and Neena Sharma
Operation Education is a Bunsen Blue production.

For high quality CPD (INSETs, school visits, including teaching lessons for staff to observe, coaching with groups of teachers) from Pritesh, visit www.bunsenblue.com/cpd

Transcript

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Pritesh:
[0:02] Welcome to the very first episode of Operation Education. I cannot help myself. This podcast is all about immersing ourselves in conversations to do with pedagogy in the classroom, culture in our schools,

Pritesh:
[0:24] leadership and the wider educational landscape. My name is Pritesh Raichura.

Neena:
[0:30] I'm Neena Sharma.

Pritesh:
[0:32] And together we are launching Operation Education. How exciting is this?

Neena:
[0:39] I'm absolutely buzzing for it.

Pritesh:
[0:41] Yes, so we were doing the maths earlier and between us we have 25 years of experience in England's schools.

Neena:
[0:49] Isn't that a silver wedding anniversary?

Pritesh:
[0:54] That is quite a milestone.

Neena:
[0:55] Quite an achievement.

Pritesh:
[0:56] Absolutely. So we've got quite a broad range of experiences between us. Tell us a bit about the context that you've worked in Neena.

Neena:
[1:04] So I've worked in different locations ranging from predominantly inner city London but also rural and coastal schools and across different settings as well. So mainstream and alternative provision.

Pritesh:
[1:16] That's pretty phenomenal. Not many teachers have worked both in mainstream and alternative provision in a city and rural coastal. That is brilliant. We need to tap into all your expertise.

Neena:
[1:26] It's been a ride. That's all I can say.

Pritesh:
[1:29] And what of those experiences would you say has been most formative for you

Neena:
[1:36] Oh gosh I just think all of them they've all added something to my knowledge and my experience of education in general and I think whatever I have learned in a particular role location or setting I've just really tried to kind of keep the best of it and take it forward with me into the next role as well, What about you, Pritesh?

Pritesh:
[1:57] So I have not as broad range experience as yourself, but I have worked in inner city schools. I've also worked in rural and coastal schools. More recently, it's the kind of breadth of experience that I've been exposed to with lots of school visits that I've been doing, supporting leaders and schools. And that's taken me all over the country in recent months. So I've spent time all the way up north, down south, west, east of England, Midlands.

Neena:
[2:31] The whole shebang.

Pritesh:
[2:31] The whole shebang. And that has been really eye-opening for me because it's, I guess, when I think back to my impression of schools and school experiences, when I was at school myself slash in my early kind of teaching career, I think I used to hear a lot particularly with colleagues that I would that were on my training course with me and all going off to different schools is I would hear a lot about the amount of disruption unfortunately that was happening in schools all over England and I've seen this firsthand myself where lesson to lesson if you think about the experience of a particular child it kind of made me quite sad to think that there are many schools where disruption in pretty much every lesson was just so normal that people wouldn't even recognize that it was a thing that was happening. But what's been really fascinating about all the schools I've been to is there are, in every county in this country, there are pockets of excellence everywhere where I've genuinely sometimes spent a whole day, sometimes two, three, four, five days in a particular school. And I've even had the joy of teaching lessons in these schools where,

Pritesh:
[3:44] And they have genuinely been disruption free where children feel safe lesson to lesson and the leaders are committed and not just having high expectations in name, but in practice because you see it in the classrooms and disruption is dealt with. And the culture has been cultivated where that disruption has now, the kids are choosing to behave differently. And that has really given me a sense of hope for the future of schools in England. And I think, you know, looking at the data nationally, I'm sure there is still lots of work to be done on that. But just seeing lots of schools which are genuinely disruption free in the flesh and having experienced lessons there has given me lots of hope.

Neena:
[4:29] Hope for England schools. I mean, what an optimistic statement. I love it. It just sounds so positive and is very reassuring for all of us who

Neena:
[4:38] are working in England schools. I know you have sort of mentioned some examples of the some of the best practice that you've observed, but kind of to summarize, what would you say were the most striking similarities across the most hopeful schools that you visited and worked with?

Pritesh:
[4:56] The sheer consistency with which a culture has been cultivated, which ultimately comes from, I think, two things. Number one, leaders in the schools having clarity about what they want the culture in their schools, the behavior in their schools to look like. And number two, making sure that the pupils in those classrooms, that that vision is delivered for them. And so it's about that having a really clear, consistent system in place, which builds a culture that leads to disruption-free learning where classrooms are not interrupted by, you know, pupils misbehaving. And I think the thing that unites all of them is not only the clarity at the leadership level but then the training and the consistency that's achieved in what goes on day to day in the interactions with the kids and I think that

Pritesh:
[5:58] When I'm saying that, I guess my hesitation and worry is it can sound like that's quite cold and it can sound like that sounds very systems driven and, you know, just no disruption in these schools. And I think that the truth is very different to that impression. And I think that, you know, all teachers and leaders want schools to be warm, joyful, loving places. And I think it's important to recognize that the foundation of joyful schools, of warm schools, of loving schools where kids are enjoying learning, making friends, making memories for life, the foundation of that has to be that the kids feel safe in their lessons and they feel like they can learn. And we just know the importance of consistency in achieving that um and you know your experiences here will be really i'd love to know a little bit more about what you think the impact of of that kind of consistency in achieving clear behavior expectations are and how that links to warmth given the range of settings that you've worked in

Neena:
[7:04] I think you're absolutely right that kind of the end goal or the ultimate vision is we want our classrooms and our schools to be the warmest and, the most joyful and positive places. Not only is that just a much more pleasant environment for staff and for students, but that is also what's going to support our kids and set them up for true success as well. So that's kind of, that's what's the most desirable, But understanding, acknowledging, accepting that the only way to get to that end point is by having that foundation of all of the things that you've kind of mentioned. And I think there needs to be real great kind of emphasis on this. And I know you said things like clarity, which is key, right? And that kind of shared vision, but also communication. I'm sticking with like the C theme here. So you've got like clarity, but you've got that real explicit communication of standards that's constantly repeated, reinforced, revisited. And I think it's the consistency of the implementation, isn't it? So, oh, the three C's, if you will.

Pritesh:
[8:19] And that's what builds culture.

Neena:
[8:21] Oh, my giddy art. Wow. Boom, we've done it.

Pritesh:
[8:25] That's it.

Neena:
[8:26] Let's stop right now. Let's make a cup of tea. Let's retire. Job done.

Pritesh:
[8:32] I didn't know you loved alliteration so much, Nina.

Neena:
[8:35] Well, then I think you're in for a lovely surprise and a treat in episodes to come. I've actually got a bit of a serious problem. I've got an addiction problem. I just can't help but be addicted to alliterative phrases.

Pritesh:
[8:50] You realise addicted to alliteration is also...

Neena:
[8:53] I actually didn't. I love it. I do it completely unintentionally now as well.

Neena:
[8:58] This is how deep-rooted this problem is.

Pritesh:
[9:01] While we're on the A's, let's segue in to talking about attention because that is the foundation.

Neena:
[9:10] You're stealing my thunder here.

Pritesh:
[9:12] I'm sorry, but I'm not sorry.

Neena:
[9:13] It's just the influence I have. Sorry, not sorry.

Pritesh:
[9:16] The attention is the foundation for really securing attention. The best strongest classroom environments because fundamentally if the pupils aren't paying attention then nothing can progress in the classroom they

Neena:
[9:29] Can only learn what they attend to right so they need to be paying attention in the first place everything else is.

Pritesh:
[9:36] Futile yes so in this episode i want to focus in on the attention and how you get the attention of of a class now Now, there are some schools that I've visited which have one consistent, clear call to attention, which is something to the effect of a countdown like three, two, one, and then ending with some sort of acronym or word, which then signals to the kids, right, you're going to stop doing whatever you were doing previously and listen to the and attend to this new input. Is it important, first of all? And if so, why is it important to have a consistent cue or to have a cue at all within these schools?

Neena:
[10:16] So as you were speaking, I was just thinking... Obviously it's imperative to have some kind of signal or cue that indicates to the kids that they need to stop what they're doing and pay attention like how on earth could you operate and function in a classroom as a teacher without having that tool but then I've also remembered that I have spent several years in my career particularly in the early stages where I didn't have access to that and I think this is the first time in a very long time that I've actually record that so now I'm just trying to rack my brain to remember well what did I do, instead and I just don't think it was very.

Neena:
[10:58] Effective what can you do in the absence of that so if the class are engaged in a task and you need them to stop and pay attention you don't have a clear consistent signal or cue, then all I would do is probably just project and raise the volume of my voice even louder to be heard this might shock you to know but i have quite a you know loud natural sounding voice some may refer to it as a foghorn no way right i know what are you on about exactly but you know there we go so, but then for me to have to raise that even louder just to get the attention is obviously very jarring but even doing that isn't always resulting in the kids being silent which just meant that I would get increasingly frustrated and that's just not a very pleasant or positive or positive learning environment um, but that's pretty much how I lived my life as a teacher in those first few years but.

Pritesh:
[12:00] That's what happens isn't it when if this idea of having a call to attention isn't present in our training in our minds it just doesn't exist because we don't know about it and I think that uh when I started teaching I didn't have a particular call for attention that I used I used to just say all right guys so the next thing is and just assume that people would that the class would then start listening and it might take some pupils a couple more seconds to stop what they're doing but that wasn't that important it didn't really matter because I'd assumed having fresh out of university that you know where you've got your independence and you're writing your own lecture notes in your own way that kids 11 year olds 12 year olds 15 year olds are all doing the same thing they're so intrigued by what their teacher the wonderful Mr. Oitura would have to say that they would just stop whatever they wanted to do and go straight to my attention grabbing explanation. How deluded was I? And I've just remembered the most disastrous thing about this.

Neena:
[13:07] Oh, gosh, I'm almost afraid to ask.

Pritesh:
[13:10] I'm almost afraid to share.

Neena:
[13:13] Go on, because you've started. So you need to finish.

Pritesh:
[13:15] Okay, so when I, because I wasn't very good at getting the attention of the class, often kids would talk over me during my explanations. I used to eventually resort to just saying shh quite a lot. But that's not the bad bit. Because I think... Like quite a lot of teachers I think have been in that position where they say shh but I used to get I was so used to saying shh to my classes in random conversations I'd have in the staff room with friends or family with adults with adults I used to just say shh without thinking about it in the middle of my sentences

Neena:
[13:57] I would love to know how they'd react or respond to that because I'll tell you something for nothing if you ever tried to do that during one of our conversations it's not gonna end well.

Pritesh:
[14:07] For you but it wasn't like i wouldn't just say like at them it would just come out in between my own words so it's like i would be saying something and in the middle of my sentence because it's while i was speaking that i'm shushing i'm not just

Neena:
[14:21] A habit that.

Pritesh:
[14:23] This is it because i'm shushing the class while they're speaking over me but this is how bad it was and i just remembered that and that is slightly mortifying that that

Neena:
[14:32] Is very embarrassing so what I have gauged then so for me it was about raising the volume of my voice louder and louder and getting increasingly frustrated but getting nowhere and with you it would just be talking at the class regardless of whether or not they're paying attention and just continuously repeating your instructions chucking in a few shushes every now and then and I've just remembered, another technique which is where the teacher just raises their hand, and then the expectation is like just silently that the kids follow suit, But again, I think that can really vary in terms of effectiveness. If the kids are really engaged in a task, particularly something discursive, and they're not necessarily facing the teacher, then you could be standing there with your arm raised for quite a while. I think really the bottom line is this, whichever tool or technique you're trying to use, which is not that clear signal or cue for attention, you are just wasting such valuable learning time. And that's really the crux of it, isn't it?

Pritesh:
[15:45] Yes, because the purpose of a classroom setting is you want as much learning to take place as possible. And what's fascinating about what both of us were saying with our extremes of whether that's kind of talking over the kids or getting louder, we as the teacher end up feeling a bit more frustration in the class. And that is taking us away from our ultimate goal, which is the joy and the warmth and the love. Like if we're frustrated because we're not quite getting what the kids and the right habits, then it's almost like we're It's something that is within our control as teachers, but we're getting frustrated with the kids, but we haven't set them up for success in the first place. And that's not conducive to the warmth that is our goal. So almost coming full circle, the joy from a classroom, we said the foundation is attention. And that's because it prevents us becoming frustrated at ourselves as teachers and kind of almost inadvertently or subconsciously blaming the children in our class for not paying attention and not being attentive enough. When we haven't been clear with them in communicating our expectations are you proud of how many c's i just got in there clear of communicating our expectations

Neena:
[17:00] Oh you're just spending too much time with me it's clearly rubbing off i love it and also you said if the fundamental purpose of classrooms is for learning to take place and for kids to make progress and achieve they're not going to do that if there's so much of that, learning time that's being wasted and you're not going to feel particularly joyful if actually you're not learning much and not making that progress or that achievement.

Neena:
[17:25] So all these things are interlinked and yeah and connected I think.

Pritesh:
[17:30] Exactly. So let's dive into then what a good example of a call to attention can look like and how we can make sure that it has the desired effect because call to attentions can vary in how effective they actually land with a particular class.

Neena:
[17:47] So let's start with examples of what we mean. And I think like with... About everything in teaching or in any type of delivery that you're doing really in any context whether it's education or outside of it, it's about the content the language the words that you're using but it's also about the delivery isn't it so it's almost like we need to break these down individually so let's focus on that call to attention itself what kind of.

Pritesh:
[18:15] Examples could we use okay i like that so let's start with the content and just focus on the script first and then we can talk about the delivery i'm really excited to talk about delivery later because voice the use of voice is something that i think is often not talked about enough in classrooms and you in particular that your use of voice in the classroom i've been lucky enough to observe you so inspiring and i always have so much to take away from your use of voice amongst hundreds of other things that are something i really looking forward to digging into later but let's start with the actual call to attention. So one of the most common ones that I have heard, you know, there's all sorts of acronyms that might go at the end, but I think there's two parts. It's a countdown into some sort of acronym or phrase that just reminds students of what the expectations are for what happens at the end of that countdown. So it might be something like 3, 2, 1, star.

Neena:
[19:15] So countdown, then phrase. So say we focus, look at star. So each letter of that word star stands for an individual phrase itself, which kind of communicates what the expectation is for the kids. For example, whether it's star or anything else, and I know there's a plethora of them, it is usually sort of like sit up straight or sit up tall, for example.

Pritesh:
[19:41] Yeah, sit up straight so that you're not slouching. T could be tracking the teacher rather than head on desk or staring out the window. A is usually something like answer questions, particularly in full sentences to promote that thinking for for late so it's ready to answer questions in a way and the r is for something like respectful listening of some sort so that if someone else is going to contribute or the teacher's about to speak that we are side we're not speaking over them or interrupting them while they're speaking so that's a kind of example of that concrete expectations because if you just start saying three two one without explaining what you want at the end would be quite confusing for the kids

Neena:
[20:23] And it's not like the kids are going through that sort of thought process each time or what does each letter stand for in star or whatever else it might be slant or or focus you kind of you front load that early on and then they just know instinctively in terms of how they should then be responding to it when the teacher calls for it, essentially.

Pritesh:
[20:44] Exactly. So it's about teaching it early on, but then it's the habit and the automaticity of it that is built. And that answers the point about why it's so important to have a consistent cue, not only for yourself in all your lessons, but across the school. The power in everyone working together using the same cue means the pupils learn the expectation more quickly, and that builds better habits. So then the pupils aren't really thinking about, okay, what do I do with this teacher? And this teacher has a slightly different expectation and the other teacher. And, you know, in a secondary school, you might have 15 subjects that you're going to lessons for. And if every single one of them had a slightly different cue, it would just... It streamlines that and it just makes it much easier.

Neena:
[21:30] How cognitively overloading and stressful for kids to go into, for expectations to vary, just depending on which classroom, which lesson, which teacher they're having.

Pritesh:
[21:45] Yeah. I mean, imagine you're allowed to do one thing in one class and then you go to the other class and the teacher tells you off for not meeting expectation. And you're like, but in this class that was fine like five minutes ago it was okay five minutes later in a different in the same school this is not okay it's the same behavior and of

Neena:
[22:02] Course that's going to generate like a sense of and it's legitimate isn't it kind of unfairness and resentment and they then we are a million miles away

Neena:
[22:10] from those warm joyful positive classrooms that we are all aspiring to.

Pritesh:
[22:15] Achieve exactly okay so that is the call to attention itself the script as an example but I know I've heard of things like tracking me at the end or you know whatever it might be it doesn't really matter as long as it's consistent and clear for the kids then let's focus on the delivery of the cue

Neena:
[22:34] Is this where you're channeling your inner actor skills as a thespian.

Pritesh:
[22:40] Absolutely unashamedly so I'm going to share in uh two examples and I want you to help me unpick these two examples, because these are ones that I commonly hear.

Neena:
[22:49] OK.

Pritesh:
[22:50] So, first one is something like, I'll use star in my script. So, I'll say, three, two, one, star, is my first example.

Neena:
[23:01] OK.

Pritesh:
[23:02] My second example is, three, two, one, star. There we go.

Neena:
[23:14] Okie dokie.

Pritesh:
[23:15] First impressions.

Neena:
[23:17] First impressions. Don't quit your day job anytime soon.

Pritesh:
[23:20] Thank you very much.

Neena:
[23:22] Welcome. First impressions are, right, there's probably a few things to pick out, but for me, what was most striking was two key differences in particular. So with the first one, and just to reiterate, the script is identical. The language and words, exactly the same. But the impact and the power is all dependent on the delivery and you delivered them both in very different ways. Firstly, in example number one with the countdown, it seemed like you kind of elongated those numbers.

Neena:
[23:57] And then it resulted after that sort of elongated numbers you had with the star phrase. And this is where it does get, it seems like quite technical. So if we almost take a step back and think about voice as a whole, voice is like almost like an umbrella term. There's so many different kind of elements to it. And I think it's important to be granular and break them down. So we've got volume, pace, pitch and tone.

Neena:
[24:25] And the problem with example one is firstly you're kind of elongating those numbers you're really sort of stretching uh, them out so it's it's something that is quite easy just to sort of ignore it's not they're not punchy and attention grabbing and when you said star you had this upwards intonation so the tone kind of went up the pitch was higher the problem with that in this context I'm not saying never have upwards intonations for things, but in this particular context the problem is when you do have an upwards intonation or a higher pitch even if your intention is to make a clear definitive statement it actually ends up sounding like a question and when we ask questions or we say things with the tone of a question it just makes us come across as a bit unsure uncertain and hesitant and if we're not saying it, in a convincing way then actually what it i think it's really uh unfair to expect the kids to respond how we would wish them to.

Pritesh:
[25:32] So the opposite of that then is staccato and downward

Neena:
[25:36] Intonation exactly so then staccato kind of meaning just very kind of short and punchy so.

Pritesh:
[25:43] So instead of three, two, one, staccato means three... Two one

Neena:
[25:51] Exactly and also with a staccato it's easier to maintain that metronome or that kind of even pace because as soon as you try and vary the pace then again it goes into that it's just not consistent so the kids actually will have no idea how long it's actually going to take you to get from three to one so that even pace is crucial and i think the easiest way to achieve that is through having that staccato that punchy countdown as opposed to elongating the numbers.

Pritesh:
[26:22] This is so helpful for if i was listening to this when i first learned how to do countdowns this is just so clear and and i i would you know i think practicing this has been really fascinating and doing practice with teachers that the that i've been working with it's fascinating because the first time you try oh I'll try a downward pitch I'll try a downward sorry downward intonation and staccato and it's just it's not easy to get right the first time no but once it becomes habit the impact I have seen in classrooms where teachers have been using a cue for a while but to switch to having the downward intonation three two one star the impact it has is on average I would say you go from actually having maybe 50 60 70 percent of kids actually being attentive the first time when you change the way you do it it's 99 sometimes 100 straight away because for the kids it's just clearer and they are like oh okay and you've not even said anything you've not explained to the class anything different it's just the delivery that has changed and firsthand seeing the impact of that transformation has really for me um reinforced just how important and powerful voices as part of communicating expectations with with

Neena:
[27:49] Pupils yeah exactly and there's a couple of things i wanted to pick out in particular you said about it um kind of becoming like if it's the first time you're trying this out as a teacher, and it's a change or a difference from your usual practice and you mention about the importance of habits like you do literally just need to practice it over and over and over again um, and i know that when we've been working together coaching some teachers we've had some feedback about you know people saying or you know i tried it in front of my dog for example and someone else said yeah i tried, it in front of my wife but she wasn't impressed i think your phrase was maybe practice on pets and not partners but I think you know I digress, I think whichever works for you but fundamentally it is about that practice practice practice so it becomes that embedded habit and you're right it provides the clarity for the consistency of it provides the clarity for kids but you also want them to be responding in an instinctive way as well the whole thing is to reduce that kind of cognitive load you want them to be using their brains for valuable things like learning all of this rich knowledge.

Neena:
[28:59] Not for wondering, oh, at exactly what point am I expected to pay attention? And it does, it's like whether you're a child or an adult, it's a human thing. If someone is delivering it in that manner, using their voice in that way, because it does just sound so much more commanding as well, they will just react intuitively.

Neena:
[29:19] They will be paying attention.

Pritesh:
[29:21] Yes. And that idea of being commanding actually links to a bigger idea, which I think is fundamental to classrooms, but can cause, I guess, controversy, confusion if people misunderstand. And that is the word authority in the classroom.

Neena:
[29:41] Drama drama did you just go there and say the a word in our first episode.

Pritesh:
[29:47] Absolutely that's another a word for you i think i've got the hang of this alliteration thing haven't i

Neena:
[29:55] I mean it's not that you do need to work at it to be you know it's a difference between just doing it and being very skillful oh.

Pritesh:
[30:01] Did you just compliment me there nina

Neena:
[30:03] No it was a backhanded compliment you were.

Pritesh:
[30:05] Saying i've been using it

Neena:
[30:06] Well essentially like well if that's your interpretation yeah i mean anyone can do it but it's about doing it in a you know in a masterful way.

Pritesh:
[30:11] We'll let the listeners feed

Neena:
[30:13] Listeners let's do some practice after the episode to get you there may turn it into a habit.

Pritesh:
[30:18] Practice on partners did you notice practice on partners not pets is also

Neena:
[30:21] Alliterative of course that was that was my only intention of saying that i've no idea if it's actually a worthwhile phrase but alliteration meant i've just got to say it.

Pritesh:
[30:29] But we certainly don't want divorce rates going up after this episode airs

Neena:
[30:33] No i'm worried about i think to the a word so i don't want to be you know causing the d word all right.

Pritesh:
[30:39] Let's go into the a word then so authority so it can be easy to conflate authority with authoritarianism and i think teachers should and do have authority in their classrooms and all that means is they are the one who is setting the culture in the room and it's their duty to set the culture in classroom. Because if you don't set the culture in the classroom as the teacher, somebody else will be setting the culture. And the worst possible thing to happen in a classroom is for that culture to be set by pupils who might be unkind, for example.

Neena:
[31:23] Yes. Okay.

Pritesh:
[31:24] So just to exemplify that if a kid in the class gets an answer wrong and someone laughs out loud at it and we do nothing about it in that moment that child is is creating the culture in that room. Whereas if the teacher addresses it because they are the person in charge, they are the one setting the culture. They can say no to that culture. That is not the culture we have in this classroom. This is the culture we have. What are they doing in that moment when they are doing that, when they're addressing that? They are being the authority. They are the one saying no to being unkind. This is what I want and expect from everyone in this room instead. And I think authority just describes that thing that I think no one would disagree that a teacher should avoid addressing that kind of unkindness. But I think we've become uncomfortable with the word authority, which can then, I think, end up being a hindrance, because then teachers feel a bit disempowered or scared to set culture in their rooms. And I think it's important to remember that teachers you do set the culture in your room because you are the authority in the room and that that is something that we should embrace rather than to reject

Neena:
[32:39] Love it and i think also when we use the word authority particularly in education we might think about um fictional characters because i just missed crunch ball came into my head just then as well but actually you can have benevolent authority and that's what the teacher should embody they are the adult they are the professional they are the expert in the room and i really like what you said that if we're not comfortable with this idea of being in charge of our classrooms, it creates that vacuum of leadership that someone else will fill and it's likely to be, you know some of the more undesirable children that we wouldn't want kind of running the show um yes.

Pritesh:
[33:23] And i think it's important to add there that those children are not in and of themselves like bad people who are then you know destroying the culture You know, all children might make bad choices now and then. Exactly. Because what do I mean by a bad choice? It's a choice that has a bad effect, a negative effect on their peers. It might be unintentional. It might be intentional. It doesn't really matter. What matters is... Ultimately, in the classroom, the signals that the pupils need to receive is one of clarity about whether something is right, whether it's helpful, and whether it's wrong or unhelpful in that context. And I think that, again, the word authority helps us to understand that because the teacher embodying and embracing the idea that they are the one setting the culture is the only way that you can really resolve that

Neena:
[34:18] And doesn't it link back to kind of one of your preliminary points about safety, because of that clarity of, boundaries and expectations that the teacher is consistently holding because, kids crave and need those boundaries it makes them feel safe so they know it's just that clarity of exactly what those desirable and undesirable behaviors are, and if there's anybody who's still feeling uncomfortable with this idea of authority let's be very clear it's not about shouting in the faces of children and being really mean and bossy we hate kids, really that's kind of it demonstrates our genuine love and care for them and if we go back to our ideal which is creating these warm joyful positive classrooms it just makes me think of that kind of warm strict kind of balance or spectrum ideally we want to be spending most of our time with the warmth warmth warmth and if we're doing that effectively then actually we're reducing the number of times and the extent to which we have to be for want of a better word strict but it's that quick switch then that becomes very powerful um but it all is done on that foundation of authority and accepting and embracing it rather than rejecting it which I love that phrase it's not alliterative you need to work a bit harder at that but I still like the sentiment of that I think that's helpful I love.

Pritesh:
[35:47] You just put that on me

Neena:
[35:49] I mean, you said it. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah.

Pritesh:
[35:52] Yes. And I think the final thing that's kind of occurred to me about authority and warmth, as you said, is... When you want to be really warm with the kids, really, that can become easier when the kids have clarity, then they rise to meet the high standards we have for them. We're not lowering the bar to give warmth just whenever, you know, the kids are being a bit naughty or not following. We'll still be really warm and, you know, just show how happy we are. That's not what warmth genuinely is. warmth is setting clear standards of inspiring the kids to meet that standard. And then the warmth not only emanates from us well and authentically, but it lands better with the kids because they feel like we've earned the warmth because we've risen to meet the high standards, expectations, whatever that looks like, whether that's thinking hard and contributing with great effort, or whether it's being kind and doing your duty to your classmates and something really positive the teacher reinforcing that with their warmth it just it's the whole package isn't

Neena:
[37:01] It no you're right and i'm using we kind of we talked about warmth joy and positivity but like another layer or level of that is when you want to take it like a step or a stage further and i'd say kind of fun and frivolity or you might phrase it as like moments of levity and it's quite a good i think you can only do that successfully if you have got that foundational authority you've embraced that idea you have strong control and command over the room and the kids are bought into it but i think it's also a useful litmus test of how much you actually have that class in the palm of your hands because if the culture in there is strong enough and you want to be a bit silly for a moment but you can bring them straight back to task immediately and crack on then you know yes I've nailed it but actually if it doesn't land well and it descends into a bit of chaos and carnage then I think that's a good kind of indication to teach a right like there's some more work to do here.

Pritesh:
[37:53] And that's something we definitely will come back to in a future

Neena:
[37:55] Episode for sure so.

Pritesh:
[37:58] To wrap up, call to attention is crucial, like the C's there, for making sure that pupils have clarity, that we are communicating with our voices, with our staccato, downward pitch intonation, with a really clear call to attention. And that this really links to building authority. and then the final thing i'll say on this is that it's so important after the call to attention that you actually scan the room visibly crane your neck exaggerate show that you're actually looking out for this are the kids actually paying attention because if not then there's you need to do something about it and if they are there's also something you can do about it which is to unleash that war and that praise that we'll come back to in a future episode oh

Neena:
[38:48] My gosh i love it Because even if you're really optimizing the execution of that call to attention, it's also a bit pointless if you don't pause and scan just afterwards to do exactly as you said. And it also provides another opportunity for that warm, warm, warm, warm praise, which we'll come back to in a future episode.

Pritesh:
[39:10] Lovely. It's now time for our scenario that we're going to be presenting at the end of each episode. And this scenario is one that I want listeners to go away, mull over, think about, send in and share with us what you would do in this scenario. And it will be the starting point of our discussion for next week's episode. So Nina, tell us what is the scenario we're going to get listeners to think about this week?

Neena:
[39:39] Right. So imagine you're a teacher in the classroom. You've got quite sound pedagogy, but what you've been realizing is that the students are just very passive learners and they're not really fully engaged. So how that manifests is very kind of poor posture, kind of slouching and slumping, very reluctant to put their arms up to contribute anything. Think they're just scraping by by doing the bare minimum so fundamentally you have achieved a level of basic compliance which is good, but there just isn't that real inner drive motivation and buy-in how on earth do we remedy this.

Pritesh:
[40:22] What a question how can we there's more those kids can give but they're just not giving it yet how do we tap into that that missing potential that is exactly what we'll start discussing in our second episode next week of Operation Education. If you would like to share your answers to the scenario slash question, or even want to suggest a topic for a future episode of Operation Education, then get in touch. Email me on pritesh at bunsenblue.com.