Ep 007: Is Your School Getting Rewards Right?

So many schools have a system where pupils can trade points they earn for rewards. Is this genuinely improving pupil culture and winning hearts? Or are there unintended consequences? Are there alternatives? Pritesh and Neena discuss!

Swap 5 points for a pen. Trade 10 points for a chocolate bar. 50 points might get you a voucher for a high street retailer, or a raffle for a bigger prize! We discuss the difference between reward points as a currency, and emblems like badges and certificates. But before we even get into that discussion, are the fundamentals of praise points in place? Hopefully, listening to Episode double-0 seven will help schools and teachers Bond with their pupils better... [it had to be done!]

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Hosts: Pritesh Raichura and Neena Sharma
Operation Education is a Bunsen Blue production.

For high quality CPD (INSETs, school visits, including teaching lessons for staff to observe, coaching with groups of teachers) from Pritesh, visit www.bunsenblue.com/cpd

Transcript

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Pritesh:
[0:00] Let's cast our minds back to when we were in school.

Pritesh:
[0:04] What rewards, awards, et cetera, do you remember getting? Do you remember, did you have like award ceremonies and things like that?

Neena:
[0:12] We had, I think when I started in year seven, we had something called commendations. So if we, did you have something similar? If you absolutely smashed like a particular piece of work, for example, or you'd consistently put in loads of effort across like a half term, The teacher would write, it was like a green coloured certificate because I remember I used to line my bedroom wall with them next to all my favourite like 90s boy band pinups. But that's another story. But that's so commendations is something. Apart from that, oh, I got some book tokens for some of my GCSE results where there was like this very big award ceremony.

Pritesh:
[0:54] Book tokens.

Neena:
[0:55] Yes, but I couldn't tell you what sort of which books I actually redeemed them for. So that's actually probably not a very good story.

Pritesh:
[1:04] Okay, honestly, okay, yeah, that wasn't the best story. But honestly, everything you've just said there, memories have just come flooding back. So we had commendations. I don't really remember what happened with the commendations. But I do remember getting book vouchers and book tokens. and we used to get these paper book tokens if you did particularly well in exams or in particular in each subject. But I found some book tokens that I got from when I was in secondary school and I realized I hadn't spent them.

Neena:
[1:36] Are you serious?

Pritesh:
[1:36] I've literally got them in my bag right now.

Neena:
[1:40] I feel like you're just.

Pritesh:
[1:41] Making no no genuinely so i found them in my drawer a few months ago and i thought oh my gosh i haven't spent these yet but they're those physical paper book tokens they're not even like you know these days you get the little the card

Neena:
[1:54] No you need like the paper paper.

Pritesh:
[1:56] And i found them and i thought oh my gosh i need to actually use these so clearly i've just put them away and like treasured them and i just forgot about them so i've literally it's like taking them out of a time capsule i've got them in my bag i actually put them in because i thought next time i'm out and about but i keep forgetting to use them let me let me let

Neena:
[2:13] Me okay yeah try and find them but also like what's the point because they must have expired by now.

Pritesh:
[2:19] Okay let me see oh look this is literally them have a look

Neena:
[2:24] Oh this is so old school i.

Pritesh:
[2:28] Love it but there's i think book tokens are notorious not notorious that's the wrong word famous for um they don't expire they literally don't have an expiry date but look the bookshop they've been issued from doesn't even exist anymore because it shut down like five i think 10 years ago maybe that's sad so these are very old let's just say but they look like they're brand new because i'm they were just sat at the back of my drawer oh

Neena:
[2:51] I've just seen it says on the terms and conditions at the back there is no time limit for the exchange of national book.

Pritesh:
[2:56] Tokens yes

Neena:
[2:58] Even if they're like 50 years old 50, just had to get a bit of a dig in.

Pritesh:
[3:04] There shall i just keep them and like give them on to the next generation and see what happens although in the future no

Neena:
[3:11] Just go to a bookshop and buy like a good summer holiday read for.

Pritesh:
[3:15] Yourself that is literally what i shall do

Neena:
[3:17] Yeah all right you just wanted a bit of validation that was always what you were going to do you just wanted me to reaffirm that on.

Pritesh:
[3:24] Air that what i was going to go and buy and spend that book finally as

Neena:
[3:27] If you were gonna give it to and give them to anyone.

Pritesh:
[3:29] Else I'm a generous guy yeah okay yeah welcome back to another episode of operation education Speaking of rewards, our scenario from last week was about whether schools should get pupils to swap points they earn in their lessons and out of lessons for material things like pens, what other things like chocolates or sweets or other prized possession items like vouchers and things like that. So there's a kind of... It's interesting, isn't it? Because they are all physical material goods. Do you think it's a good idea to give pupils the option of swapping them? Will that increase buy-in motivation and transform culture in schools?

Neena:
[4:35] I have loads of conversations with this, actually, with teachers and school leaders. I think the first thing is to go back to the praise point, achievement point on merit in itself and the awarding of that so just as kind of just reminding ourselves of how to make sure that we're maximizing kids motivation is yes it's really important to give that kind of reward and praise but it's really all about the delivery of it and ensuring it's all that warm specific named praise right so that's kind of like the prerequisite in order for it to like land really well.

Pritesh:
[5:12] So so the contrast of that would be if teachers are saying yeah there's a point for you or if a kid just think well here take five points good stuff and that's it that's not going to be as effective as savoring the moment when you award the praise point in the first place or the achievement point whatever we're

Neena:
[5:28] Calling it exactly because that first non-example you've demonstrated it's almost like it like a checklist that they're ticking off or I've given that praise point and when something is like that if you're just doing it like a checklist then the kids just check out so absolutely as you said, i knew you'd like that one i've been saving that up for a while if there was no relevant point i would have just chucked that in months.

Pritesh:
[5:51] In the planning that one

Neena:
[5:52] Was yeah literally um so we've kind of established that so that was just a quick like reminder recap so, yes you're awarding that point you're delivering it in that warm specific named praise and then so the question is...

Pritesh:
[6:11] Well, actually, sorry to interrupt there, but it's also when you're giving it, is it actually earned?

Neena:
[6:17] Oh, yes.

Pritesh:
[6:18] Or is it just... Given out very liberally just because you know oh you lot haven't had a praise point in a while here's one or even things like oh do you know what everyone's been working pretty well let's give all of you a praise point that i think it seems like everyone is going to be loving their lives but we've talked before about group praise versus individual named praise so i think that's another prerequisite

Neena:
[6:44] Perhaps yeah no absolutely and this idea about you know you have to rise to my standards in order to really deserve it and exactly as you said individual praise rather than that collective praise yes a good.

Pritesh:
[6:56] Reminder so before schools think about what they do once the pupils have been awarded the praise you have to get those fundamentals right first because doesn't matter what the rewards and the prizes are afterwards if the delivery of the individual points isn't done well in the first place you're just missing out it's like a opportunity lost that is there for you to save and make the most of and really build and secure really high winning hearts buy-in from the pupils in your school

Neena:
[7:29] Exactly so then let's imagine that we've nailed that so we are giving out we're awarding kids those points and delivering that warmed specific named praise and doing that super well in a super well in a way that motivates the kids, so then the question is,

Neena:
[7:51] Is it necessary to take it to the next level? What are your thoughts on this?

Pritesh:
[7:57] Yeah, so I think even just before answering that straight away, in an earlier episode, we talked about tick sheets and how even if you don't even have the points, the reason that giving ticks without any points is powerful in and of itself because it's not the points that is the most powerful thing there. It's the it's the named praise it's the warmth which with with which you give it and it is the connection you build with that individual named pupil and then feeling recognized seen with that concrete thing that's reinforced that is the culture building moment so if a school isn't doing that and they're focusing on the points rather than the the delivery of the praise you So it's almost like it has become, like you say, a checkbox thing. It's like a surface level thing. So I think... First thing I would say when the schools is, is the,

Pritesh:
[8:58] What is your priority? The priority and the goal ultimately isn't let's get a point system working. The goal is how do we get culture in the school stronger? So that's your starting point. And so it's that lens through which I would analyze the next question, which is what do you do with those points?

Pritesh:
[9:16] And I think there's two avenues that I see schools go down. One is you swap the praise points a bit like a, it's almost like a currency and you can trade your points that you get, that you've earned and through your hard work by living the values of your school, whatever that might be, for something physical material like a pen, like a rubber, some other stationary, sweets, chocolates, lollipops, or potentially even entering into prize draws to earn like bigger rewards like games or games consoles bikes i've seen all sorts i remember when i was at school used to be entered into prize drawers for you know gadgets like at the back in the day like mp3 players or ipod shuffle or whatever it was um or the other option is you don't actually swap your points for anything you just if you earn a certain number of points

Pritesh:
[10:20] Depending on the number of points you might get a special mention you might get a badge that you can wear that shows that signals how many points you got or a certificate or something that reinforces that this deserves recognition but without actually giving the kid anything material that they keep and use that is their own and certainly not something that they've traded and swapped like a currency when you hear that distinction which do you gravitate towards and why

Neena:
[10:56] I mean certainly towards the second one but one of the examples you gave is is a badge not necessarily a material reward but it's still quite physical why is that different from a pen or a bar of chocolate.

Pritesh:
[11:11] I think a badge is different and i put that in the second category and not the first because

Pritesh:
[11:19] An individual pupil doesn't first of all they haven't traded anything for it it's been earned so that's like the first thing it's like a threshold award but second of all it's something that you wear as part of your school uniform so you might wear it on your bag or your lapel whatever your uniform might be and it then becomes a talking point so if i'm a teacher who doesn't necessarily in in that in the year group of that particular pupil but i teach them and i see that they come into school the next day after the you know a particular period of time when these badges are handed out let's say end of term reward assembly or something of that sort and i see they've got a silver badge i can go oh nina is that a silver badge that i see on you whoa what does that mean how many praise points did you get last term what what have you been doing in your i know in my lessons you've been fantastic but what does that tell me that tells me you've been good in maths you've been brilliant in science tell me what's what have you done to earn this and suddenly You are reminded as the pupil of all the great things that you have achieved, all the times that you were given those praise points, and you've got someone else who previously hadn't necessarily awarded you all of those points, feeling proud of you for earning those points. What is that now doing to your motivation? How do you feel, Nina, when I was describing that?

Neena:
[12:44] I'm feeling so good right now. Why? My motivation is sky high and through the roof because I just feel warm and fuzzy inside through all of that. As you said, it's like that conversation. So I think first it's an emblem and it's kind of it's a physical symbol that represents and embodies what that child has done to deserve it. Then, as you said, it's a conversation starter. And the effect of that is it's just kind of reinforcing the great work and effort that that kid has done as well and it just continues this sort of I guess virtuous cycle right.

Pritesh:
[13:23] Yes and what would imagine instead of the silver badge you had gone up to a school shop and traded it for a 10 pound high street voucher and then you went and you bought yourself something like a game why would that how would that feel and would that feel different if you were a pupil

Neena:
[13:48] I mean it might be in terms of that instant gratification it feels quite good but it doesn't have like a long lasting positive effect on me, or impact on my long-term motivation either um, i would say it's kind of like then all done and dusted and i just feel it really just if if it just the kids are then focusing on it's, like the end outcome is them receiving this material or physical reward they're not kind of really spending time and focusing on that visceral feeling that you get when a the praise is delivered in the right way and b, you get that right sort of recognition through that badge or an award, ceremony and a public celebration i think it just really devalues the praise in the first place and I will just keep expecting okay I've got this many points right okay I'm entitled to this pen oh I want this voucher for whatever as well I think so.

Pritesh:
[14:49] It risk creating the wrong kind of culture like reinforcing the wrong kind of culture one of I'm expecting what else am I going to get rather than it becoming a I guess it's having those kind of emblems as you said And also the awarding of the emblem, who gets a silver badge? It's this list of pupils come up and celebrate and then who's going to get the gold badge? Like it reinforces all the behaviors that led them to earning that particular emblem in the first place, which I think is really powerful. And it allows that public celebration without detracting from the original reasons that that emblem was earned so you're reinforcing hard work people who are getting this award have got it because they've worked hard they've shown kindness whatever the values of the school are that reflects those and i think it's much easier to do that around a kind of something that isn't material that's not tradable it's not it's not it's not it's got a certain amount of value and that's it it's not just a pen or a five pound voucher it is a badge the honor and the pride and the joy associated with that it's not tradable it's it is in and of itself worthy and earned and deserved

Neena:
[16:17] Exactly in and of itself and i love this idea about using all these ways to reinforce the original desirable behaviors that led to that praise and reward being delivered because pens run out and you can scoff a piece of chocolate in a few seconds, but what is so long lasting and therefore more meaningful with rewarding kids in the other way that we've suggested it's the emotional feeling it's that visceral feeling that you get when you are acknowledged and recognized and celebrated in much deeper and less superficial ways I think and fundamentally kids value what we value so if we are united as like a staff team and we make a really big show and dance of showcasing the kids who really deserve this type of accolade then And that in itself is going to drive them and motivate them to want to to replicate those same desirable behaviors. So they receive the same reaction and response from their teachers.

Pritesh:
[17:26] Yeah, that is just so well put. And it's just making me think that the two scenarios there are in one scenario, let's say a kid is getting a 10 pound voucher. In the future or other pupils seeing that pupil being awarded, they're thinking, I want a £10 voucher or I'm lucky. Yes, I got the £10 voucher. But with a badge or a certificate, the kids aren't buzzing about the certificate itself or the badge itself. They're actually buzzing that it's the teacher recognized me for this and i can now take this and show my parents and they will recognize me and my hard work for this so what's motivating one pupil is i want 10 pounds rather than i want to i want to be i want to earn the admiration of my teachers because these are the people i respect and if i have their admiration back then that's a really great thing or my parent i want to make my parents proud is it easier to do that with a 10 pound voucher or is it easier to do that with a certificate or a talking point a badge i think there's a there's a difference between the two isn't there

Neena:
[18:41] For sure are we just being party poopers though not giving kids chocolates and sweet treats and lollipops and lots of just you know prizes and and all that.

Pritesh:
[18:55] And cavities and cavities

Neena:
[18:57] And yeah lots of dentists and orthodontist appointments for.

Pritesh:
[19:01] Life yeah i think look i don't think there's the occasional sweet treat i think might be fine like i'm not saying never give them any sweets or treats or anything like that but if you can give

Pritesh:
[19:18] The admiration is worth far more like kids will get sweets and treats you know they get that when they have you know in the canteen they'll get that

Pritesh:
[19:27] But will they get recognition admiration which one has more in like value in my mind based on what you said as well you can scoff down that chocolate in a few seconds the thing that's going to give them a long lasting joy like if i think back to my school days you know i still remember the award ceremonies the standing up that your name is announced or you know teachers would you know with the commendations that you said i think they would sign them in your diary it's just all coming back to me because i haven't actually thought of the word commendation in a while because it's that's kind of gone out of fashion isn't it a little bit but then you'd have that in your diary or if you've got a certain number of commendations you'd get a letter home signed by the head teacher and that would come through in the post i know these days it's all done by email but the post would come and you'd see the the you'd see it's from the school and you're like oh i hope this is good from the school and then your parents would open it and you'd be like wow the head teacher's written with this look they've signed and your name's on you got three commendations or whatever it is like that is just doesn't compare to i don't i mean i'm sure there's loads of times i got chocolates but there's no one time i remember where i got the chocolate like nothing springs to mind but i can remember the letters i remember there used to be postcards that were posted home

Pritesh:
[20:43] And you would get the postcard through and you'd read it it would come through the post box and you'd read it straight away and you'd think oh wow i got a postcard from my teacher like i actually remember those moments of getting watching the post come through or you see it in the pile whereas i don't necessarily remember a random chocolate that i might have received and

Neena:
[21:01] Yeah i think i think that's a good point and actually it is, it's probably easier, isn't it, to have a system where you're converting these praise points into more sort of monetary or physical objects, isn't it? As opposed to being able to really upskill all teachers so that they're confident to deliver the praise point in the first place in a way that is so impactful and powerful for the kids. And being in a working a school where all teachers are able to not just treat this as, as that checkbox but actually something that just adds so much value in and of itself like that's a that we know that's the ideal but we also know we're realistic that's not, easy right and we talk about consistency it's not really enough for a math teacher to be renowned at a school at doing that super well but actually you know the science department aren't that great at it like that is also going to have an impact on that student's motivation so it's i can see how it's easier and more straightforward it's a simple solution let's just kind of you know let's just chuck money at at a problem really.

Pritesh:
[22:20] Yes that reminds me of a blog post that i read a while back by um ruth ashby have you i don't know if you've come across this i can't remember the exact name it's something like pointable things. And she talks in it about... How leaders often will i think this is the gist of the blog i might be misquoting or remembering but how leaders can sometimes kind of do things because they're easy to point to and say look we're doing something to solve a particular problem but actually whilst we can tick it off and point at it and go look we're doing this we're doing this we're not actually measuring whether it's having impact or whether it's actually working and that kind of links to what you're saying which is what's gonna you can easily as a leader go yes well we have points and we have a lot you know some kids got hundreds of points some kids didn't and some the kids who got all these points we have a system where they get all these rewards but actually that's the easy bit it's easy to implement that in one sense but is it actually changing culture on the ground are the kids more bought in at your school after the rewards or compared to before, or to compare to another school down the road that's not using that reward system. And one of the pitfalls of this, actually, that I've noticed in some schools that I've visited or worked in is

Pritesh:
[23:45] Teachers will often notice this and, you know, will mention it to me. But if the teachers are noticing it, the pupils definitely are. It's often the pupils who misbehave the most that end up with the most rewards. Yeah. Because teachers resort to noticing and placating the kids that might be shouting out the most. And when they just about manage not to shout out or whatever it might be, that the behavior that's not the one that the cultural norm the teachers want to establish those pupils get over praised because they've met those basic expectations that some of the quieter hard-working peoples have been meeting all year and just have not been recognized for and that plays nicely back to our earlier episode that we talked about using your tick sheets to see who has not yet got that praise let's seek them out and notice what they're doing and i think so that's why there's a big interplay between all of these factors as well and if it means that you know you end up with all the the kids whose behavior isn't necessarily the best getting the best prizes not only are you inadvertently undermining the culture that you want but the kids who are doing well but not being as recognized you're losing it's actually causing them to lose buy-in from the school which is having the opposite effect of what you want

Neena:
[25:09] Yeah so it's almost like shifting your focus from prioritizing all all of these points what shall we convert them into, And actually, rather than doing that, focusing on, you know what, let's deliver praise. I've said it several times. I'll say it again in that warm, precise, named way and great reminder about the tick lists as well and using them as like, I think the phrase you used last time as, a heat map of the lesson that then supports you to narrate the story of the lesson at the end. And if you can put all your resources, your time, your effort and energy into ensuring that all teachers are consistently using these particular strategies then I think it'd be very interesting to see that the impact that has in terms of, positive behavioral change and habit formation for kids and classroom and and whole school culture as well and thinking oh is it is it really necessary now to convert these pens into a 50 pound amazon voucher, other online retailers also available uh yeah classic.

Pritesh:
[26:18] And a side unintended well a side effect of this kind of decision making will be you could save tons of money at your school like if you think about the number of vouchers

Neena:
[26:29] Maybe hire an extra like english teacher rather than spend it on you know thousands of lollipops or whatever it might be.

Pritesh:
[26:36] Yeah quite so and if you can just pass on some of those savings to me that'll be great no but it's true I think you know when you think about like take the exercise of adding up all the monetary rewards that are given out in this way and just invest five percent of that into some badges and certificates and use the rest of the money to hire an ex like potentially whatever it might be to do something that's higher impact what a great tip we've just shared with

Neena:
[27:07] Schools yes we should write this down.

Pritesh:
[27:10] Absolutely okay so we've thought about rewards we've thought about the option of having kind of swapping them monetary for monetary stuff and versus having these emblems just a final quick question um well it might not be that quick but in terms of awarding these how what's a good frequency that you might refer back to points that pupils get is it would you be doing this every day every week every month every half term what kind of thing or is it different things you do at different

Neena:
[27:40] Frequencies yeah i think that's a really good question and i think a lot of that will depend on the current systems, that exist in your school and the structure and format of your school day so for example i think at different frequencies is great so starting on a daily basis so if you have a form tutor system then celebrating the number of points that the top students in your or top tutees in your form group, have achieved at the end of that day and having that positive celebration I think is really lovely, if you have lineups at your school or greetings that gives you an opportunity that punctuate the school day that's another good opportunity to give that public shout out as well in front of the year group, a lot of schools have weekly assemblies but I like the idea of sort of the constant reinforcement so building and culminating in something such as a big, end-of-term rewards or celebration assembly that really recognizes the kids who have been the most consistent in earning, the highest number of points as well. I think that's really, really motivating.

Pritesh:
[28:51] Brilliant. And if it is the case that when leaders look, or even a teacher looks at the number of points and they think, oh... It's really all the pupils who often misbehave the most that seem to have the most points. What advice or suggestions might you give teachers that notice that in their own logging of data? And what advice might you give to leaders for kind of tackling that?

Neena:
[29:18] Yeah, I think it's really useful to sort of to be monitoring this. And form tutors will have access to that data where they're narrating those positives. But leaders in particular I think having an overview and an oversight of the individual teachers in your department and how I think a lot of it goes back to kind of tick lists I've done this myself earlier on in my career exactly as you said to placate, students who tend to be not the best behaved but you're so relieved and you do feel a sense of pride oh okay they've managed to meet this particular expectation but then if you're disproportionately rewarding them above the other kids just because they're quieter but they do the right thing all the time then obviously that's very problematic so i think everyone needs to have responsibility and take ownership over how they are praising and rewarding these kids so every individual classroom teacher but heads or department leaders need to have oversight over what's what's happening in those in those different areas as well i would say yeah.

Pritesh:
[30:23] That data speaks to a training need and yeah for sure that then leaders can address to wrap up this episode then first of all we looked at praise and reward culture in schools as a whole and we discussed how the most important thing to get right first is how are teachers giving praise in lessons and around the school are they delivering it warmly or are they not are they actually giving it only when it's earned or are they giving it as a way to placate pupils that might be more likely to misbehave and this neglects some of the quieter pupils but once those are in place we've discussed different options that schools have in terms of well what do you do with the kind of points that have been accumulated by pupils over time and we looked at the pros and cons of having those points act as a currency exchanged for material goods like sweets rewards vouchers versus having threshold values for each number of points earned and earning things like emblems that represent the hard work and success of those pupils whether that's

Pritesh:
[31:39] Badges whether that's certificates whether that's recognition and mentions in assemblies and i think this will prompt so much discussion amongst leaders and if you are a school leader or teacher that has found any of these ideas helpful for for discussions and decisions that are to be made do get in touch drop drop us an email

Pritesh:
[32:04] pratesh at bunsenblue.com we'd love to hear your reflections on that journey. One thing that we haven't touched on this episode that I'd love to return to in a future episode is the idea of intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. So if that's something you're interested in hearing, do let me know. Nina, can you present us with the scenario for listeners to think about over the next week?

Neena:
[32:26] You've created the new seating plans for all of your new classes using the relevant criteria. The kids have approached the threshold of your classroom ready for their first lesson with you that term, how do you physically ensure that you're moving them from there to be sat in their correct seats do you have the seating plan up on the board and get the kids to find their own seats or are there alternative options, hint hint there are definitely alternative options.

Pritesh:
[33:00] Oh i bet there's a lot of teachers that are curious about that as I've often seen the formula that you've just described next time on Operation Education if you would like to