Finding A Job In The Hague's NGO Sector

Episode 2 of the Dose of Dutch Podcast features special guest Barclay Wijnbergen of The Hague Humanity Hub, who shares her experience in The Hague's thriving NGO space.  If you're looking to find a job at an NGO in The Hague, this is the show for you, as Wijnbergen covers everything from cover letters, to resumes, to networking to dealing with the new challenges of AI in the job market.

The Dose of Dutch Podcast is your ultimate guide to the vibrant community of The Hague, Netherlands. Every week, you'll learn about the city through the eyes of Hannah Terry, who leads a thriving community of women looking for meaning and connection by the shores of the North Sea.

You can find all audio episodes of the show on Apple Music, Spotify and wherever you stream podcasts. Look for full video on the Dose of Dutch YouTube channel, plus clips and bonus content on Instagram and TikTok. Be sure to like, follow, listen and review! Contact us at doseofdutchpod@gmail.com.

The Dose of Dutch Podcast is produced by Chroyce Creative Agency and recorded at Studio Point of View in The Hague.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Of course, applications, I will still review, you know, a ton of CVs and a ton of cover letters. And I think also with AI nowadays, like we know that a lot of people are using it. And, you know, it's also fine. Like I know that a lot of people are applying to like 200 jobs a day. Like we can't expect, you know, to it's I mean, organizations also use AI, so it's also hypercritical to like not, you know, like to judge people for using it if your organization does it too. But I just think that it does, you do stand out if you don't in a way.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Just knowing how difficult it is to kind of navigate being a young professional in the city, looking for a job. And specifically, um, I work in the NGO space, so working in this kind of space of peace and justice, it's quite difficult. So I thought I'd bring in an expert, Barkley, who is here from the Hague Humanity Hub, but specifically works on the Talent for Good program. Um, and I'll let you describe a little bit about your job, Barkley, and I guess also how long you've been in The Hague. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Hey Hannah, nice to see you again. Thanks for having me here today. Um, yeah, indeed. So we interned, I think, about three years ago at this point. Um we're getting there, getting there. Um yeah, and I I you've, I mean, you've done so so many amazing things since then, but I've indeed um stuck around in in many different roles. Um I moved to The Hague in 2020, full pandemic. Great later. Mid-COVID lockdown. Uh, came here for my studies. Um, was a bit tough at first to to meet people. Um, and I am a person who craves connections, so that was a bit challenging indeed. Um, but then yeah, that's my my bachelor's and my master's in political science. And alongside I interned at the humanity hub. And that's really like when when a world of connections opened up for me. Um, because for those who don't know, the humanity hub is a connection platform where we help um different professionals who work in peace and justice connect and collaborate with each other. Um, so through my work there, I got to meet so many amazing people and really like starts these um connections that I was kind of lacking during the lockdown of not being able to socialize with anyone. Um, yeah, and I'm now fully in it and um I'm part of the programming team there. Um, so as you said, I run the Talent for Good program. Um and I'm happy to share more of the program. Yeah, what is the Talent for Good Program? Okay. Um so yeah, as our key mission is kind of to support professionals who work in peace and justice, and that is a really broad term. It's basically anyone who wants to make a positive impact in the world, whether that is climate related or in the humanitarian sector, um, we try to support their work by amplifying it and by connecting them with the right people and and through facilitating one-on-one collaborations or connections or many different things. Um, and part of supporting them is also helping them find talent for their jobs and and what they're looking for where they need support also. Because yeah, we recognize that you know the next generation of the change makers that are working in these organizations uh are just as important as the current ones. Um so we also want to make sure that they are prepared to to enter these sectors and um yeah, easily navigate that job market, I guess. Yeah. So we we launched this Talent for Good program, uh, which is basically mainly catered towards students and young professionals who want to make a job or want to make an impact, want to pursue a job or a career in mission-driven work. And we we do that in many different ways. We have like different projects around that. Um, for example, we have an online platform where there is a job board just to easily navigate like the different jobs within the mission-driven sectors. So all of our members can post their vacancies on there. But we also have career insights, for example, online where you can read interviews with professionals and learn about their journey, get a get a good insight into what skills do they think are important developing in that specific sector, what are the pros and the cons? How did they get to where they are? Uh really just providing more of a like personal insight into people's professional journeys. Um, yeah, to just give a bit of an overview and make sure that people are prepared and know what they're getting themselves into before dedicating their entire careers to it. Um yeah, but there's yeah, I think there's a combination of what is kind of lacking and the gap that we've identified in terms of what do young professionals need? What are they looking for? What are the gaps that maybe also universities aren't necessarily addressing? Where can we come in to kind of bridge this gap between university life or whatever studies they did beforehand and uh entering the working world, the job sectors? Um, yeah, and trying to fill that as best as we can.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

Yeah, it's a tough transition going from like university to job market. And I remember luckily my first job out of uni was a think tank. So I was reading paper, like reading papers and writing papers, which was funny because people are always like, your job won't be anything like what you did in school. And I was like, my job is school. All I do is kind of read and write papers all day um and make presentations out of those papers. Like it was really a nice way to transition myself, I think. But I was also very lucky in that, and a lot of people don't have uh that same support, and there can be like just a lot of gaps, and also the job market is not the best right now. So it's really difficult uh when people are asking me, like, how did you get a job or how did you what skills are important and it's always uh what are you up to right now? Yeah, so since I left the humanity hub and I started at that think tank um, which was in Amsterdam, which was quite funny because the topic was very related to The Hague, I think, but the office was in Amsterdam, so um I was working for them for a while, and then on the Humanity Hub job board, this is not this is real people. This job board has brought me my current job. Um, I saw that one of the members of the humanity hub, Democracy Next, had posted, and I had always had my eye on this organization because when I worked for the humanity hub as an intern, I was like, ah, they're really cool. Um, so I kind of just kept my eye on them and the job board. And um as soon as the job opened up, I jumped right off it. Um you got it. Congratulations. I think I started my cover letter with like as an intern at the Hague Humanity Hub, I came across Democracy Nights. Like it was a really nice way to kind of use that connection. Yeah. And um, I think they also really appreciated that because being based in The Hague, um, I'm able to make connections with people. And working from the hub is uh also a really nice treat because it feels like I'm back in my intern days, but I've matured since it's kind of a weird feeling, but yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

It's nice to still see familiar interns or familiar people around who used to work at the hub and now have just like grown and are still around but in different positions. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Yeah. Nice. And um, I guess we can kind of jump into like talent development. What does that mean? What do you um view the programming as helping or facilitating in that area?

SPEAKER_01 8:10

I think um I think you already touched upon just like by casually talking about what you did, um, what what things that are I think important in in order to yeah, kind of get into this world. Um, but I think there's no real way to sugarcoat it. I think there is really like a big issue right now when it comes to to jobs in the sector, um, mission-driven organizations, peace and justice organizations. Uh, working in this field is challenging right now with the budget cuts and all. There's a lot of uh hiring freezes and just um yeah, lack of opportunities just through through the lack of money. Um but besides that, I think there's also um a lot of people who are interested in very few organizations. So there's um really this people who want to make an impact. They have like the top three UN institutions in mind that they want to work for. And then, of course, there's like huge competition to get that, and therefore lack of opportunity, I guess, because there's only so many positions. Um, so I think one of the problems is uh people are looking for a job, and the other one is organizations are looking for new talent. Um, and we are kind of trying to bridge this gap and bring the people together because university is a very isolated field, and the working industry is a very isolated field, and we want to connect, right? Like we're all about connection. Um, so we basically just want to create spaces where these people can meet. Um, so a lot of what we do is host networking events, for example, just where people can actually get together and talk to each other because reading something on paper is very different than meeting someone in person. Um, but also just showing people what's out there. Again, like a lot of people know about the ICC or the ICJ. Um, but there's so, so many organizations here in The Hague and around who are doing the good work, you know. There's uh, I mean, I think Alone the Hub has like over 200 member organizations working on peace and justice. And that can range from small nonprofit organizations like grassroots uh initiatives to startups, um, to consultancies, people working on climate, people working on using technology for good. Like there's so many different careers in this sector that are possible that I think a lot of people are not aware of. So, one thing we want to do is also showcase, uh, showcase that, showcase the different kinds of organizations that exist and the different fields that you could be going into. Um, because that is, I think, something also very personal to me, where I think I also came with this like sheltered idea of okay, I want to make an impact in the world and I want to work for the UN or whatever. Um, but then through my internship at the Humanity Hub, I learned about the variety and diversity that exists within the sector and just learned about so many different organizations. Um, and that really opened up a world for me, which I just want to continue also providing to other people. Um so yeah, I think um just showing showcasing the variety and diversity of careers is a big thing that we want to do, uh, and the work of our members also highlighting, showcasing what they do, um, but also providing the opportunities for people to meet and engage directly. And this can be just a professional sharing about what they think is important or tips and tricks from their side, but also the other way around, uh, we have like dedicated programs, for example, where young professionals can showcase their work so that um the professionals who are interested in scouting for talent, for example, um, can firsthand witness um the projects that they're working on or whatever it may be to make an informed decision, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's uh interesting. I also came in with a vision of like the type of role I wanted as well. And I was very like, I don't want to work in as I'll be honest, social media and communications, which is gonna be really funny. That is really funny how that worked out. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I was like professionally, that's not what I wanted. But at the same time, I had to at some point realize I want a job, and the best way to get into an organization and develop myself was to take the job that was open for me and that I was good at it. It was just like I didn't feel super excited about doing that every day professionally. But um, but for me, it was also a way to get into an organization and then start to pitch myself as well as I can also do this. I can also in my first job, I ended up changing my job title halfway through because I told them like I've actually taken on all of these other aspects. So I didn't shut down the opportunity just because of the job title or just because it said whatever. And I wasn't super interested in that, but I was like, but I like this organization and I like what they're doing. So once I'm inside of it, maybe I can start to offer myself in other ways. So I think it's but I I love hearing from other professionals about that because a lot of people have similar stories where they they start in one job role and then by the end of their career they're doing something totally different. I mean, I relate so much.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Also, like I again, like my background is in political science, like that is really what I was interested in in doing and in working on. Um, and the internship that I did at the Humanity Hub was um was very much logistics and hospitality related. Um, so not so much content focused. It was more taking care of the campus because, or like doing tasks related to the campus because we are also a physical uh space where where different uh professionals can come and meet and work from. Um so I was mainly responsible for for doing the bookings of the rooms and and all of the logistical stuff that comes with it, which again I think I'm good at. I'm very organized and structured and you know, um, but it wasn't what I wanted to do long term. It wasn't like where my aspirations lay, but it got me to where I am now, you know, and now I I get to work on cool projects and I get to focus on youth engagement and and um try to support others as best as I can to yeah, kind of find their way also uh within this career um journey. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, definitely sometimes you gotta you gotta do something that you're not a hundred percent on board with um because it can just open opportunities and it can get you to talk to the right people and um help showcase your your qualities. Um of course you can always like you should always stay true to yourself and your values and all of that. But yeah, just because the tasks are not 100% aligned with your passions, um, I think it's still worth exploring the opportunity. And because I think anything that you learn will serve you something at some point. So of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

Yeah. Yeah, networking is also similar. Like, I used to go into it, the attitude of like, I need a job in a month. I'm gonna network now. And I think it's um I've learned a lot about not networking for a job, but networking for connection. Yeah. And then maybe something else comes down the road. But I think it's someone was I was talking to people about this is about like startup funding, but they said like the funding never comes when you need it. If it's then, it's too late. So it's kind of like that with networking for a role. Like, if you're networking when you need the job, it's too late. Like you really should be like laying the groundwork and like building those connections because also you never know what comes from a connection or what you spark in someone.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Um, yeah, and that's really like when we talk about you know what is important skills to develop as you're trying to navigate the job market. Networking is really like top one on my list. Um, and I say that as someone who used to hate networking. I used to hate it so much. It was my worst nightmare because it really felt like I was selling myself and I hated that. Like I hated like lying or not even lying, but just like pretending or I don't know, adjusting yourself to to make yourself sound good and selling yourself in in that way. Yeah. And it just felt like so ungenuine and so like superficial, and like I was demanding something from another person, and the connection or conversation just wasn't genuine. But the hub, and I think maybe the Dutch job market, I don't know if it's like specifically um centered around peace and justice, but it is a much more informal environment than I was used to back home, um, where really like personal connections are actually valued. That's true. Um, and when I when I started like actually talking to people, not from a networking perspective, but generally just like wanting to make a connection, that's when opportunities came up, also in terms of collaboration and and whatnot. And I was like, whoa, like these connections are actually so valuable to me, not just in terms of having like nice faces around and you know, like being in an environment where you know people and um yeah, you know about their journey, also, not just their day-to-day tasks, kind of. But also like if if you build a genuine connection with someone, the the chances of them wanting to collaborate with you or having you in mind whenever an opportunity does arise increase so much. Um, so yeah, I think networking, seeing it as a purely like professional encounter where you try to get something out of it is just the wrong way to look at it. Um, and once you start viewing it as just building personal connections, and maybe an opportunity will arise because you know, people might think of you uh if they know what you like and what you're passionate about and what you're interested in, um, then I think it becomes really fun. And it really just becomes about building connections and getting to know people. And it's yeah, it's a wonderful thing to have in this environment.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

No, that's true. Fun. Yeah, fun. Yeah. I was also thinking about like skills people are asking, and I'll go against the the curve that everyone online is talking about, saying AI skills, AI skills, AI skills. And I think what I see a lot right now, and the skill I really want to work on, is like my creativity and fun. And like I think that there have been times when I'm in a workplace and they're telling, they're asking, like, okay, so what's something new and innovative we can do? And I'm like, uh, I don't know. Like, I can't, I'm like, I'm not gonna be incredible on the spot, but it's a good skill to have because I remember those meetings where you're in a meeting like that and someone pops up with a really innovative idea. I remember that person and I remember that idea. And that sticks with people. And I think that really makes you a great person to have on a team. And like that's a skill that people I also now like now that I'm sometimes on the hiring side of things, or I look for that because I'm like, that's not a skill that AI can do. Like, that's something that like will only become more valuable because as a young person in a room, being having the confidence and having the creativity to come up with a new innovative idea, that will really make you stand out. Um, whether it's in an interview or it's in an actual room full of colleagues. I think it's the skill that like I suggest to others, and I others being in the room with something I really want to work on. My boss is most goal second quarter of 2026. You're working on creativity. But uh, I think it is something that's really valuable, and also people don't expect it in this sector as much, or like if you're not in a creative role, yeah, they don't expect like creativity to be a good skill to have. But I think it's like one of the most valuable things you can offer.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

100% 100%. And I think creativity may mean like something to a lot of people because when we think about creativity, we are like a a picture in mind. Um, but I think the the key word here is really like innovative ideas. Um, and I think we've also been talking about this a lot recently, where it's especially when we talk about youth engagement and bringing in young people, um, bringing in people who are just entering the markets, like what they bring is fresh ideas, is fresh perspectives, is innovation and new creative ways to think about something. And that is why it is so important. That is why we need these people, because otherwise we get stuck, right? Like we we need to grow and innovate and um fresh perspective and and yeah, fresh ideas is the way to get there. So I 100% second that I think creativity and innovation um and productivity also I think comes with that. Uh go a very long way. Yeah. Um I think another thing um that maybe is also a bit unique to our sector because it's not as specialized as others, um is the soft skills. Um, I think, or yeah, maybe speaking for myself because it's quite general what I do and also what I have my background in. It's not very niche and specific expert knowledge. Um, but I think what helps so much is just the emotional intelligence of knowing how to navigate a space with your colleagues, with your partners, with the people that you work with, how to engage with stakeholders, especially when you're dealing with sensitive topics like peace and Justice covers so many issues that are that are directly impacting so many people's lives. And I think it's important to have a good understanding of how to talk about it and how to navigate it and how to approach certain things. So I think soft skills, communication, how to talk to people, what to take into account, what to take into consideration. I think that's just something. I don't know how much you can build it, but I think it is something important in this sector.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Um and then communication also online. I think comms skills are also a social media, it's just something that's basically any role requires at this point. Where it's just how do you communicate to the public? How do you write? How do you yeah, present it in a visually appealing way? Like I do think that comms and the strategy behind it is also skills that is worth investing in because it's relevant in whatever you do basically. Um and uh networking, I will say it again. Like talking to people, getting to know people, um, not being shy about it. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

Yeah, I was just reading a cover letter for someone, and I was saying what I missed from it was like the what type of colleague you'll be. And I think being on the hiring side sometimes of things has helped me realize like, usually if you get the interview, I probably trust that you have the skills needed for the job. Especially if you're an early professional. Yeah. I'm probably confident that you can learn what you need to learn to do it. Exactly. I want to know, are you going to be the right fit for my team? And I think a lot of people, and me included, put a lot of pressure in the interview on like, yeah, I have this skill and this skill and this skill, but it's more about after the interview, can I see you fitting in on my team? Or no? Or am I gonna be, wow, I really want to work with that person, their energy and what they bring and their spirit. And it's also sometimes if I haven't gotten a job, I'm like, well, I just wasn't the right fit for their team. But that's so true. Being on the other side of things, sometimes you already have a few people with that personality and five, and you need someone with a different kind of personality, I guess you would say. But I think a lot of people forget about there's two aspects of hiring. It's can you do the job and then what type of colleague you'll be, and especially in our sector. Yeah. At least I my first job, the team was 12 people, and I thought that was small, and now my team is four full-time.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

So, like it really have to get along and be able to work with each other well. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. I mean, I always say um, your first goal is to get to the interview. Like you, you just want to get to the interview. So, in your application, in your cover letter or your CV, like you cater it towards the position because you want to get the interview. Yeah, but that is where you focus on the skills, right? Like, if you get the interview, as you said, the high the hiring person is probably confident that you have the skills to do it. Like they know your education, they know your background. Um, what matters in that moment is whether you click with the person who's hiring or not, like whether you will fit in with the team, etc. I think that's yeah you're 100% spot on there. Um, and I think in that case, also what matters most is is the motivation and and the passion um rather than your experience. Like, because again, it's written on the CV, right? Like we know where you studied and and where you worked, um, but why do you want to be here? Like, convince me. Um, and yeah, personal connection again in the interview, I think goes a long way. Like, if if you are genuine and you're yourself also, I mean, of course, you should come prepared and you should know who you're talking to and what the organization is. Yeah, you're not just there for a chit-chat, but I think um as long as you come prepared and you've already proved by getting the interview that that you have the skills in that moment, it's really about okay, why do you want this job and why should they want you? Like, how do you fit into the team? What do you have to offer? Um, yeah, no, 100%. So nice.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

Um, and I guess what makes things stand out for you? I mean, you just said passion and motivation, but is there something that like also the people that stick in your head through either networking or applications?

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, of course, applications. I will still review, you know, a ton of CVs and a ton of cover letters. And I think also with AI nowadays, like we know that a lot of people are using it, and you know, it's also fine. Like, I know that a lot of people are applying to like 200 jobs a day. Like, we can't expect, you know, to it's I mean, organizations also use AI, so it's also hypercritical to like not, you know, like to judge people for using it if if your organization does it too. But I just think that it does you do stand out if you don't, in a way.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Um because every cover sounds the same.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

It just and it's it's not even about like, oh, you use AI to write your thing. It's just that you read 20 letters and they all have the exact same structure and they act the exact same like three paragraphs and everyone starts with the same sentence. So if you read one that is a bit different, you're like, oh, refreshing, you know?

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Maybe it's just a different AI, you know, but it sounds different. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

And I think before AI, this was already true, where it's just like if you bring something different or if you capture the interest through like a personal anecdote or just something a bit more genuine, I think that is how you can really stand out. Like again, the CV is really just the do you have the skills to pass? Um, it should still be like structured in a nice way, should be, you know, like one page, should be submitted in a PDF document. Like there's specific things that that should just be like done. Um, but I think the motivation letter is really like a space where you can try to stand out. And I think being personal and genuine is really the way to go. I remember we had uh one of the interns who I who stuck with me, um, who said something about like I moved to the head to The Hague with 10% plan and 90% passion. Like that was her first sentence. And she got hired, you know? And I still think about that because it's such a good way to start. And it's just like, or or even what you said, I mean, it's maybe less personal, but it's still drawing the connection of like as an intern at the humanity hub, I've learned about your organization here and there. Like, you know immediately that there is a personal thing. And this is also why I recommend always to go to spaces where you get to meet the people prior to the interview. Um, go to an event, go to a networking drink, go join a program, whatever it is, have something that you can mention in your cover letter where you're like, oh, I attended this event and I was impressed by this and that, and therefore I wanted to apply. Or even in the interview, when they then talk to you, you're like, Well, I was at this event and I talked to this colleague of yours and it really inspired me. And I also see it for myself. Like, if I have met people before or worked with them, because again, we have like programs where I get to see people actually doing the work, it's it's competing with people who I'm reading on paper and have to trust versus people who I've actually seen do the work and know I can trust. So just getting involved, getting your name out there, getting in touch, talking to them is really, I think, the the number one thing. Um, because yeah, you it's it's one way to prove yourself um before even submitting an application.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Yeah. And I will say I work for a fully remote organization. So I didn't have access to that. But what I did was listen to podcasts. So I listened, I knew the people interviewing me and I listened to podcasts that they had been on. So it's obviously less personal, but I then understood like how they talk about these topics, what their perspectives are, what are the value-I'm exposing myself a little right now. If you're watching it's okay, you already got the job. But I mean it really helped, I think, because it is like also. I mean, I do this when I write a cover letter, I look at the keywords on their website and I put those keywords in. So, but listening to someone and how they speak about these topics, you can then feel their okay, this is where there's a lot of emotion or something to really work with. And it helps you get to know. I mean, if you could read a book by the founder, like I mean, if so, just if you can't get involved directly, you can also really seek out those like more human connections than just like I follow you on LinkedIn, I see all the updates. Like, I think it is a nice um way to kind of stand out in that sense.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

No, 100%. And yeah, if if you already know a bit also what what they are talking about, right? Like what is important to them, etc., it's so much easier to also connect on that level because why you want to work there is probably for similar reasons. So you can connect on your passion and shared interests rather than just like monologuing about your own thing. Yeah. Um, but yeah, yeah, 100%. That's true. And yeah, the interview in the end is also a bit of like a vibe check. So if you already know who you're talking to, you can already assess a bit also how to present yourself. Because in the end, it's just a conversation, you know, like you already passed the CV check. So it's just about yeah, the the a conversation, getting to know each other and seeing whether you fit well, yeah. Um, and having those insights definitely helps with that. It does.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

I also have a very tangible uh it's an a story, but when I applied to the humanity hub, I was applying with the American standards, I guess you'd say, of a CV and a cover letter, which is like no photo, no color, like it's like on a Google Doc.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

And I somehow got hired. And my lovely internship advisor Thomas. And what was that? It's just like that's so boring. And it must be like as a comms person, too. He was like, Can I show you? Like, like he was pulling up just Canva templates in my heart. I was like, and then in the US, they told us do not ever put your photo, like anything personal. And like I've heard feedback now that, like, your your CV doesn't have your hobbies. It still hurts my little American heart to be like, uh, but it is uh also to check like what are the norms for the CV and the cover letter in the place you're applying, because it never crossed my mind that everyone does not use the Harvard standard format, but like it is something that it matters as a comps person, especially.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Yeah, I think I think there's no straight answer to this question, to be honest. I think I think hiring is also so personal because in the end you're the one working with the person you're hiring, unless you work for a big organization in the FIHR, but I can't speak on that. Um, no, but um, yeah, I think for if you're applying for like a communications position, for example, I've also had heard now of people who applied with like PowerPoint presentations, you know, like a beautiful Canva slideshow. And I think for a comms position that can work really well, but for other positions, maybe that's a bit less appropriate. So I think it's really also catering to the job and the organization that you work with. Um, again, like what I see a lot, especially in like the political science atmosphere or like sphere, is their Europass applications, you know, because it's like the standard template. If you want to work for the EU or do a training ship at the EU, they have very rigid guidelines of what it should look like, like a template. And it makes complete sense if you want to apply to the EU or even maybe like you know, other embassies or anything like that, because it shows like a certain seriousness. And but when you talk about like NGOs, I think it already seems a bit too serious, you know. Like maybe we want something a bit more where we can assess your personality and like what you would be like as a person working with us. Um, so I don't necessarily recommend it for NGOs, to be honest. I I would rather see something a bit more personal, but even there it's it's more about the structure, like having sticking to one page, having no spelling mistakes, making sure it's easily readable because you also want to make it easy on the employer to just again, they have to skim so many applications. So just make it easy on them. Um, but highlight the things that that could get you somewhere, right? Like if you wrote your thesis on a topic that is relevant to the position you're applying to, mention it. You don't need to mention it every time if it's not relevant. If you do a specific sport or have a specific hobby that is relevant, mention it. If it's not, don't. Like if you do horseback riding and your organization has nothing to do with that, like there's no need for them to know. But if you are passionate about, I don't know, photography and you want to work in comms, okay, sure. I mean, this is very spot on, but you know what I mean. Um and then when it comes to like pictures, I think people are very split. Um, okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

So it's now becoming split.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

I think I think it's very split. Um, I think it used to be a bit more of a like, okay, we want to assess personality through picture, like it's more personal and we want to know who we're hiring, which is one side of things, but then very quickly it became an avenue for discrimination. Yeah. Um so then exactly. So then I think very quickly we the the switch was made to being as neutral as possible in terms of gender. I think now it's it's rather encouraged not to have pictures just so that the hiring process can be more neutral and there's no no filtering based on gender or you know, just looks.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

Yeah, it's uh yeah, I that was always what I knew.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

But yeah, it is interesting. I one place I worked for, we completely blinded all of the applications. So even down to the school name.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

And after we went through at least a hundred and ranked them all, um the person who had blinded them came back to us and said, Oh my gosh, there was a Harvard graduate in there, and they are not ranked very high. Yeah. But it was very interesting to assess your own and to go back and look and be like, would I have assessed this differently if I had known this person went to Harvard or if I were interested? Like, and I've heard of blinding in terms of like design or something, but this was really like gender, school, anything that like could identify bias or discrimination. So it was actually, I thought it was a beautiful process, but then it took a lot of work.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

I was just gonna say this. Like, I I really like the idea, but I don't think we have the the resources in this sector to fully commit to this.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

I don't think we do it ever again, to be very honest. I enjoyed being on the hiring team for that because it was a very good assessment and check for me as someone who's reading it, is like, ah, let me be more mindful of these types of things because they can affect the way that I assess. Um, yeah, but don't expect that everyone's doing it.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

No, absolutely not. And again, I think it's so personal. I think there's also maybe like a generational gap here where maybe like some generations are like, I want a picture, and and then the newer ones are like, no, pictures are not important because what a person looks like is not important. So I mean, not to say that others don't care about that, but I'm just saying I think there's a bit of a like generational also wave when it comes to. I mean, I myself, like, if I were to send applications, I would not add a picture just because I wouldn't want that to be one of the reasons of why I would or not get hired. And also compared to others, like I also hope privilege, so I wouldn't want to put others at a disadvantage because of that. So I think just no picture is the way to go nowadays.

SPEAKER_02 38:05

I advocate for this personally, not applying, but it's actually yeah, I'm uh happy it's moving in that direction because I was really shocked.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Yeah, no, and I think other things matter more, you know, like again, the CV is really like skill checks. So what what did you do? What is your what are your languages? What uh is your educational background or specific things that you've written about that are relevant? What is your volunteering or professional experience? Like that is what matters in the CV, and then your personality can shine in the cover letter. So in the interview, yeah, yeah. In interview, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:46

All this to say, yeah. I'm not I'm I guess I'm a professional at being young professional. Am I considered young professional anymore?

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Well, actually, I don't know. I don't know uh what how many years of experience you have. So no, but yeah, no, I it's it's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

I I consider myself a young professional what is early career.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

Early career, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:09

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

I don't know if I but I feel like I think young, yes, early career, maybe no. I think maybe you've already graduated from early career. Um no. It's been a couple of years.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

So all this to say, it's just we're talking from experience. You are a professional in this, but yeah, it's um I just hope it's nice to hear from people about kind of the journey and the path and then what works and what doesn't work. It's a really scary place out there applying for jobs. So if you're doing it, it's sending you lots of love. Um but yeah, is there anything that you're looking forward to or working on with the program?

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Yeah, I mean, Talent for Goods um has already become such a like established platform at this point where we have a lot of recurring uh events and projects that I'm just really excited to continue and and build on. Um so every year, for example, we have a huge career fair only with mission-driven organizations. So I'm excited to build on this year, which just happened uh in June. Um, but then we also have like more dedicated projects uh where we accompany like um young people on a specific topic on their journey, which is more tangible. And we're just getting started with that. So I'm also excited to see like where it can go. Um, but then I'm also just excited to continue our handshake series where we interview professionals about their career. And Hannah maybe maybe you would want to be one of our next speakers. Maybe, maybe next time you can be on the opposite side of the of the microphone where you're the one being interviewed. And as a not so early career professional anymore, I can ask you about your um your your journey and your uh work and what you're up to. I think that would be an exciting uh next step also the to do uh as part of talent. I would love it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

I remember being in the conversations when we the handshake was starting and we were naming it, and it was uh like, should we name it the handshake? Should we have two handshaking on the ground?

SPEAKER_01 41:14

This is still an ongoing conversation. Every time we actually have an interview, the the the guests are always like, okay, so do we actually shake hands? Like, do we want to take a picture where we shake hands? Um, but yeah, no, it's just, it's just, it's, I really love it, honestly. And maybe if we have the time short anecdote, I think the reason why I also appreciate the handshake so much is because it really gives a personal insight into someone's journey, um, both personally and professionally, but it it gives you the chance to hear the good and the bad, which I think a lot of people don't talk about. And I think it's so important because, again, people study and dedicate their entire career towards one profession, and once you're in it, it's kind of difficult to get out. Um, so I think it's such a nice way to really give a nice overview of the pros and cons of a specific work field and what it actually looks like. Like my boss always says, um, he used to want to become a humanitarian until he actually talked to humanitarians, and then realized it's absolutely not for him. And that's kind of what it's supposed to do. It's like it's giving you the space to talk to people and realize okay, is this something I actually want? And if so, what are the skills that are important? How did they get to where they are? What are the the pros but also the cons that I should be wary of? Um, and I think it's just such a nice way to really prepare yourself for for that market and and talk to professionals directly um instead of just yeah, reading about them.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Yeah. Also nice to talk about the good and the bad because uh there's a lot of tea. We need to be more honest. There is a lot going on. Yeah, so it's nice to have an open conversation about that. Yeah. Nice. Uh my last question, something I ask every episode of the Dose of Dutch podcast is uh what is something you're recommending at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Ugh yes. Um, I mean, if we're talking about jobs and and looking for jobs, um I know it's not easy. Uh so one thing maybe is don't give up. Keep trying. Um and don't limit to yourself. Like, really scout, see what's out there. Don't just focus on on the few things, like really look and broaden your horizon and talk to people. Talk to people, make connections. This is valuable, not just professionally, but I think also add so much value to your life. Just connecting with people, building communities, um, supporting each other. I think that's my number one recommendation. And if there's an opportunity that comes from that, beautiful. If not, you still have an amazing community. So yeah, I think that's my my number one um advice.

SPEAKER_02 43:57

Yeah, I think I also am big on like if you go to um an event or you have a conversation with someone, follow up with them right after, of course, but also follow up with them in a few months. Like I keep a spreadsheet of people that I've chatted with or connected with. That that doesn't sound very natural in your idea, but I kind of check it once a month and I'm like, ah, I haven't talked to them since December. Okay, let me send them like let me have them in mind. So if I see an article that's really relevant or I see something that reminds me of them, I'll forward it on. So like I I like to track the touch points, but I like to make sure that like is this just professionally or also in my personal like, oh, this friend coffee in four months. Let me know. But like professionally, especially because I work remotely. So for me, like I'm connecting with people in like uh Copenhagen and in Boston and in Texas. Like, I can't just go to a networking event and hang out with them, but like I can be mindful of like, ah, we haven't talked in a while. Let me send them an article. So I like think it's nice to be intentional about keeping those relationships alive and just um always touching back in. No, not always not looking for anything, just to revive the connection.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

Yeah, no, for sure. And you never know what comes from it. So of course, it's always nice to stay in touch, and nice to have a good spreadsheet.

SPEAKER_02 45:15

Yeah, this is a spreadsheet. Keep a spreadsheet. Okay, well, thank you so much for joining uh this episode of the podcast. And I'll see you at the handshake, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Hannah. This was so much fun, and uh yeah, I look forward to interviewing you next time then. Rolls reversed. Rolls reversed.

SPEAKER_02 45:36

Nice, and thank you for listening. Um, see you next time.