BUILDING ATHLETES UP DAILY
My podcast will be helping promote my clothing brand and help athletes with mental health issues
BUILDING ATHLETES UP DAILY
Anxiety with Dr. Jason Emery
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This episode with Dr. Jason Emery is a blast!!. Learn why anxiety could be controlling your own life and learn different strategies to manage anxiety
Hello, everybody. I am Owen Clore, the owner of Bod, and this is the fourth episode of Building Athletes Up Daily. Today we have a special host, Dr. Jason Emory, a sports psychologist. Please introduce yourself.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Owen. Dr. Jason Emory. No, in all seriousness, yeah, licensed clinical and sports psychologist. See athletes, teams, organizations, but mostly athletes, uh kind of across a wide spectrum of ages, kind of younger kiddos to uh to adults and pros and Olympic athletes. Uh but a lot of adolescent, young adults, that's kind of the the big the bulk of who I see. Um it's really awesome to be here. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah. So my first question to you is what are the strategies you could use to overcome anxiety?
SPEAKER_00Right. That's a that's a great question. And and I it's it can be a tough answer because you, me, anyone is looking for, you know, the three tips, the top five strategies, what have you. Um and really to kind of get to a different experience with what you're calling anxiety, uh it's gotta be customized, but it's also really unique to the person. So some people have anxiety where they feel it uh just tons of it like tension in their bodies, like stomach, traps, headache, uh, nausea, um, fatigue. Um and what you do in in that case might be might be different than someone who has it where it's like the mind is just going a million miles an hour, there's a lot of fear, there's a lot of worries, um, what if scenarios. So anxiety can look different for different people. And even if it looks the same or similar between two people, their lives, what when when it comes up, when it becomes a a challenge, um, it can be a different time. So the strategies are really built around, you know, we have this relationship with this experience, right? We have a relationship with anxiety that may sound kind of odd, but it but we do. And so we have to understand where it's coming from, and then change that relationship. So a lot of people say, Oh, my anxiety, my anxiety, like it's a possession or a pet or something. And it's not, it's just a physical and cognitive mental uh experience, truly. And so we have to sort of understand it, take away its power and understanding it, and then you know, sometimes I joke, it's like any relationship, sometimes they they need to end. We have to like, you know, break up with anxiety, oh yeah, um, turn the page and move on with our lives. So, you know, I I think that part of the the discovery of what's helpful is really to just understand, like, excuse me, where it's coming from, uh when it gets pretty intense, right? So there's so different scenarios, often there's things that lead up to it. Um, and I'll tell you, I've got tons of clients over the years who have who have shifted their relationship with anxiety just by figuring that stuff out and taking the time because it feels like it's some overwhelming thing that's never going to be different, and that's not true. You need to take some, you know, some some looks and you need to take some practice reps and do some training and in in and changing what that relationship's like. Um but to drill that down even further, what's common? I would say learning how to ease the tension in your body, right? So wherever you hold that, wherever you experience that. Um really kind of doing some body work. Um, there's something called like progressive muscle relaxation and some other relaxation strategies to help you do that. Um, I'm sure you've heard of like a trillion times breathing exercises.
SPEAKER_01Breathing exercises. One thing that I do want to add, and I know it kind of seems corny in this, but meditation, I feel like that would help extremely a lot with anxiety. And I did talk about like the three, two, one where just forget about anxiety. It does take a long time. It took me a long time to learn, and I've developed that myself.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, for sure. Um the breath part is really important, right? Because if it's if your experience of anxiety certainly physically is like, you know, if you're hooked up to things that would measure heart rate, sort of muscle tension and whatnot, like you want to decrease that. And really, the the simplest way, it's not always easy, but the simplest way is through the breath. So if you can slow down your breathing cycle, elongate your breathing cycle, um, typically with strata with really helpful strategy for a lot of people is learning how to prolong the exhale. The inhale is going to happen. So uh prolong the exhale, absolutely, which is going to again expand that cycle. And as your breathing cycle expands, you should see a decrease, you know, in your heart rate. And with some other strategies, and and and uh I mean, I actually love the meditation idea. Mindfulness work is really important. Um, because if you can get really present, if you're just really present, you can't really be in your head at the same time. Exactly, right? So it's right, you know, so people are like, well, how do I deal with anxiety in the middle of a game? Well, again, it takes a lot of training leading up to that, but those reps around how do I how am I present? What's aware, what you know, what's around me, what do I notice? Um, and to really be able to do that well, and then of course, under you know, the stress, pressure of performance or school or whatever, uh, you know, takes takes training, but totally doable.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I mean, for me, anxiety has been a very big part in um my journey as an athlete, because especially with fear as well, because there's been times and instances where I don't see the actual knowledge or belief in my actual skill set confidence. And honestly, that happens a lot for me in hockey, and it's because of past experience I've had with others. And I I will be honest with you, I the youth team I was on, the youth organization, I think that was one of the problems why it happened. Like, and to be honest, I could have gone off and done something else. I could have gone and played for like uh an elite team, but I didn't. I kind of stayed and I kind of made that mistake myself. Right. Right. But what people don't think is the higher you go up, the more anxiety you could face because the amount of pressure, attention you have, and politics playing it, it's absurd.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I would say that that's where for most athletes you see a spike in anxiety is as you rise up, for instance, uh you're getting closer to goal, your goal. Right? You're getting closer to something that's super, super, hopefully super, super important to you. And as you get closer and you get the care factor's high and and and you're really passionate about what you're doing, you're you're you're working your tail off, that expectation and just getting excited to be so close can really, really kind of ramp up again that tension in the system in your in your own body, your mind. And so part of the the thing that I tell my athletes, certainly at the highest levels, is is again get back to just being present and doing what you're doing. I love where you went with the confidence piece. Um, how I define confidence, uh, one of my definitions is the knowledge and belief of your skill set. It's not based on a feeling or a feeling state in any way. And so remind yourself what you do and what you do well. And then if you're at a tryout or if you're in a showcase or if you're a you know in a in a league game, you're already there, so you must belong there. Yeah. So questioning that is just kind of the mind plants and tricks and whatnot.
SPEAKER_01And to go on, I um I follow Christianity, and there's just one thing that someone told me, and it was a pastor on a mission trip I just went to, and he said to me, Owen, I know you've told me you've played hockey and you have experiences that have hurt you, and I and this guy will actually end up being one of the next podcasts as well. One of the things I want you to do is think that God sent you there. He sent you to this room.
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_01And that that just right out of the gate, that just showed my knowledge basic of my actual skill set because I feel like once we feel anxiety, it kind of harnesses it into like this cage, our like our confidence into this cage, and we're not able to see it. And we're not able to be ourselves, which in a sport you have to be the best that you can be, you have to truly be yourself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I think it's a great point. I don't well, two things. I I think that you have to be yourself because if you're thinking of anything else, there's no way, because that means you're in your head a little bit, there's no way you're in flow state. And if you're not in flow state, you're not typically playing your best. I mean, it's hard to get in flow state, don't get me wrong, but you're gonna for sure make sure that you don't get in there if you're in your head, you know, you know, any number of distractions. I mean, think of anything outside of yourself, comparison, uh previous performances, time traveling to the future, what you know, concerned, worry about the future, like all of that is is is a is a distraction, right? So they happen kind of externally from what we can see and internally in terms of our thoughts. Like that just takes us off our game. And so, again, back to like you mentioned before, mindfulness exercises, meditation, really kind of harnessing this mind that we have and learning how to control that, respond to the thoughts and the emotions that come up. Like, that's that's that is a performance skill, right? It's also a life skill because you don't want to be, you know, dealing with that level of tension and anxiety in any other area of life. And you certainly don't, and the thing that you love to do in sport or music or whatever it may be.
SPEAKER_01100%. That that that was amazing. Um, so my next question is where anxiety roots from. So while I truly think anxiety is so picture the tree. A tree is us, all right. Now they're this vine, very invasive vine, which is anxiety. And over and over time with past experiences, uh it happens and it grows and grows and grows until it blocks the sunlight, it blocks us from our true self. Where do you think anxiety truly roots from in that way?
SPEAKER_00Um I think that you know there's there's a couple of places that we typically see it kind of rooted in, right? So one is I just want to get this one kind of out of the way because it's uh it's part of it, is genetics, right? So there's a bunch of different numbers, but you know, if you if you experience anxiety in a certain way, um you know, take a look at family members and whatnot, they may have a similar experience or or um something that they didn't even know, you know, older generations, we didn't even really know what this was. And so, you know, may look sound different, but that's you know, it can be kind of uh sort of a genetic experience, right? Um for a lot of us, I would say most of our experience of anxiety comes from and this is just one of the examples, but this one comes up a lot. Um, I I would say that it can take root to use your your metaphor there. Um, once we not only just get out of ourselves, but really start increasing the amount of of time that we spend uh in comparison, right? So now we're all you know, got one of these in our hands constantly, right? And so we're typically on some form of social media, and you're seeing, you know, peers or friends or teammates, or even again, depending on the level, you know, people at higher and higher levels and what they're doing and how they're performing. And and as a reminder, and you already know this, is like, you know, what you see on social media is way more of like the highlight film than just every day of you know messing up and screwing up and um you know dealing with mistakes. But like if you're comparing yourself to the best in the world on their best day and you're not there yet, that space between right now, today, and that wished upon future where you want to be, be like them, what have you, that space between right now and then, that's where anxiety to me lives. And the same with the past. Like if you're worrying about things that have happened in the past, you're time traveling, you're going backwards in time, which you know, I can't do that. I don't know if you can do that yet, but I haven't figured that out. And when we do that, again, the space between what we're thinking about and right now, that's kind of like a breeding ground for just again worry, concern, rumination, um, comparison, all the things. So again, I think it's rooted in we have this vision for something, and it feels like we have to have to get there, like must, must, absolutely 1000% must get there. Um, but we kind of live in that headspace instead of just doing the work and enjoying the process of getting there. Um I think there's a reason why there's you know, it's it's hard to become really, really elite at what you do, certainly in in sport, because it takes a lot of effort. Oh, yeah, a lot of effort, some luck, you know, just the way it kind of unfolds. Um but I would say that that it really takes root when we get out of ourselves and start time traveling around future or past.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00If you really are present, and I know it sounds so cliche, but it's true. If you're really present even through the process, like you've got your you know, your goals, your process goals, and you know what you're doing day to day, week to week. Uh, you've got some you know medium-term goals and whatnot to put your mind to, you know, your values, you know yourself. Uh if you're living in that way, in that space where you can go to bed at night knowing that you're you know you're moving toward those goals and you're also you know living authentically as yourself through your values and who you are, who you want to be, you know, you're gonna you're gonna the the bumps aren't gonna seem as bumpy.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And the highs aren't even gonna see as high because you're gonna be like, well, sweet, well, I did that and bring on the next.
SPEAKER_01You feel like normalized in a way. I think you can. I do want to ask you this question about goals and like false goals, because like I mean, everyone wants to make a D1, but I feel like that's like a false goal to me, because once you're there, you're not gonna be completely satisfied. But I feel like you can develop like this sort of anxiety from wanting this goal so much. Because if you don't if you make a mistake or something, like, oh my god, what am I doing? This isn't the right path I'm taking, or it's like slowing me down.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, there's there's there's it happens at all levels, like all levels now that I'm thinking about it, like and certainly collegiate level and professional level. And I'm sure I know you're familiar with the stats around you know, people, let's take hockey for instance, people that you know can say they played in an NHL game versus the amount of people that have made a career in the NHL. Like those are very different numbers. So just because you you know you get called up and you play a game doesn't mean you're guaranteed the contract and the longevity and the role. Um still a business. Um but when you get there, yeah, you can be like, oh sweet, I achieved the goal, I'm done. And it's literally for for a lot of for a lot of athletes, it's like I'm actually just starting again, right? Like it here we go again with figuring it out, figuring out the lifestyle, being valuable, performing, dealing with fatigue, travel, injury, I mean, all the things. Um, and so yeah, you can put as much pressure on yourself even when you're there, when you know, in your position right now where you're at, you might say, What are you complaining about? You're you're in the NHL. Like, what are you doing?
SPEAKER_01Literally, one of the best players in the entire world. And there's one thing also want to add with this part is I was watching this movie, it's called War Machine. I don't know if you ever watched it for this. And um, so this guy that he's an army ranger, and so for army rangers, they have to cross this finish line to become an army ranger. But one of the cadets or um people there says, Once you cross that finish line, it's the starting line.
SPEAKER_00Love it. Love it, and it and it actually, you know, I'll I'll share this with you in terms of some techniques that people might be able to use. Is you know, there it's there's a lot of folks in my position, in my role, that you know, we've used goal setting for for a long time. Uh, outcome goals, performance goals, process goals, what have you. And still super valuable. You know, I always kind of talk about goals, and like it's you know, essentially like setting the GPS destination target, and then of course it gives you direction for what you're doing day-to-day, week to week. Um but there's a reason why a lot of us have integrated other models to our work because the goals, to your point, will are gonna come and go. And you might want to stop going for a goal, you might reach the goal, and then it's the classic, like you just said, then what? And so that's why we really move more towards you know, guiding our athletes to really understanding themselves and values and who they are, because who you are and how you show up in the gym on a Tuesday is probably the same person you want to be after a game on a Saturday. And that Saturday could be you know the championship and you win it. Well, you still want to be the same person after, or you lose the game, and you still want to be the same person after, right? And so the idea of who am I, let me make sure you know I want to be someone who's uh constant learner. So you're gonna see mistakes differently. And every time you make a mistake, you're not gonna be upset by it and worry too much about you know what the impact is, what other people think of you, and all that great stuff that our minds like to do, right? But it's gonna be like, listen, I'm a learner and I'm doing what I'm I'm I'm living my life, and so really getting clear on values is another reason why we don't just rely on goals because again, like you said, like they they come and go, and it's uh there's something that's that lasts longer, and that's who we are.
SPEAKER_01100%. And interlying into this, I feel like for me with anxiety, things that did play into it, who which are two separate things, one's more temporary, but is easier to achieve, which is motivation. Discipline, on the other hand, which takes a lot, a lot of time to learn and master. I realized that when I was with discipline, I was using discipline in the wrong way. I was actually kind of blinded, and I was actually kind of using motivation instead. And I wasn't truly using that, and I think that's what interrupted to my anxiety as well.
SPEAKER_00Sure. I mean, I listen, I think that I'll add another one to that, which is instead of motivation, I'd even say like people really seek to feel good and feel inspired to do whatever play, perform, train. And and there are days, I mean, there's tons of you know, the world's best best athletes that talk about this. I'm actually reminded of like a fairly recent Michael Phelps interview, and he's like, You think you know, think there were days I didn't want to go in the pool? Like, of course there were, right? So this idea that you know we're always gonna be like electric and and and lit up of like just so pumped up is is is it's sort of wishful thinking. Um I would like when I'm working with athletes, I would like to see them find their their why um and find their passion for what they're doing, the love for what they're doing, so that it's coming from within versus doing that for external reasons. Um, so there's that part of motivation different than say like inspiration, right? Like here in a great song or a great interview or even a great movie, something like that they reference. Like, and then there's discipline. And that's you know, listen, that's um that's a tough one. Again, there are many distractions internal inside of us, external outside of us. Um, there's many reasons to do any number of things. So getting really clear on why the heck you would do a hard thing is gonna increase your chances you're gonna follow through. So again, why am I doing this? Set those short-term goals, set that that that your why, your passion. Once you set those destination points, it's a little bit easier to follow through like and do the hard things, which is you know, call that discipline.
SPEAKER_01That that's that's very breathtaking to take in and to add on to the point where anxiety also roots from, and you said like it was genetics, and you said one of the ways, yeah. Is there any other ways it could root from too?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think that one of the things that happens for a lot of people, um and again this doesn't just address someone experiencing anxiety, um but it definitely is one of the ways is if you're just running yourself ragged. Like one of my colleagues gives me a bunch of crap because I I I I think that you know achieving balance is uh I don't I'm not a huge fan of that because if you're doing something at the elite level, you're spending a lot of time doing it. Um so balance is not necessarily even, right? Like 50-50 or something. I mean, you gotta find your own quote unquote balance. Um, but I would say that if you're driving and things like sleep, things like nutrition, things like relationships, things like rest recovery, if you're not doing those parts and doing those parts well and consistently, you're gonna get fried. I mean, that is part of being elite. It's not constantly going, going, going. That is not. Sustainable and whether the body breaks down or the mind breaks down, it's something's gonna give eventually. Uh, do you push yourself beyond the limits in training? Yeah, I hope so. I mean, that's how you get really, really good at something. Uh but once you start kind of tearing away at the sort of building blocks of of just health, of wellness, and you get fried, I think that's just a nice open door invitation for things like anxiety to walk in and be like, okay, come at me because I'm I'm just worn out.
SPEAKER_01We got an open seat at the table, we want to take your seat.
SPEAKER_00Listen, you don't it is an option, and and you can do that, but if you don't want to do that, make sure you're taking care of those basics. So that's you know, again, no one necessarily wishes anxiety upon themselves. You know, it's not about that. Um, but if you want to decrease the the the likelihood that you have that experience, like take care of yourself, right? And you and listen, your body. I've worked with many, many athletes where you know, when I meet them, it's post-injury or um, you know, they're in what we what we call burnout, which can can look like depression and sometimes they overlap, but they're they're actually different. Um, but when we're burned out and fried, the prescription, if you will, for burnout is to experience some joy, like fill the well. The well's dry, you're burned out, fill the well. Okay. And so that also is just, you know, maybe we call it balance, maybe we don't, but that's uh that's just making sure that you have you know healthy, active relationships. You have other things that you that you're interested in that you do to just sort of counter uh the grind of of your of your sport. Um and so in that way, I think that you you you reduce the likelihood that you experience things like anxiety, is just that you're taking care of like your whole person. And you know, that leads me to the last part, which is like your identity. Like you, you know, you can love a game, a sport, so much, so much that it's like all you think about. And also to make sure that you are not only performing as well as you can, but that that that it's sustainable, you gotta have more identity outside of that sport.
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_00We've got a lot of again, a lot of elite level professional athletes speaking to this, um, where they really hit some rough spots, and then they realize that you know what, I need I need something else in my life to go to counter this. Um, it doesn't mean I don't love it anymore. If anything, it means I love it even more, is that I'm gonna take care of myself and make this sustainable. Uh, but I think that really all this lifestyle stuff and wellness is is there for a reason, uh in terms of tools to make sure that you know your career and your performance is is as high as it can be and and sustainable. Um nothing really fancy about getting sleep, but it's really important, right?
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah. Like I remember uh who's TJ Wah, he gets I think around 13 hours of sleep. She says it plays a very big role in that, but the thing is with like depression and anxiety, sometimes like that depression anxiety it interrules with it and it makes it worse and you can't sleep.
SPEAKER_00True, true. Again, that's why you you know make sure that you're taking care of your kind of your whole self and all the different sort of buckets of life. Um, can't control everything. Sometimes we wish we could, but can't control everything.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, that is definitely for sure. Well, thank you so much for coming on this podcast episode. I'm sure you'll be on some more as well in the future.
SPEAKER_00I love it, appreciate it very much. So you're doing a heck of a job.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. You as well. All right, guys. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you guys next Friday. Goodbye.