Episode 3: Kelly Lamb's Journey, Part 2 – Finding Purpose Through Kambo and Bufo

Can your darkest chapter become the very thing that leads you to your life's purpose?

In Part 2 of Kelly's story, we pick up after her recovery from opioid addiction through Ibogaine and follow the path that eventually led to Tribal Detox, Kambo, Bufo, and the work she does today.

This conversation explores what happens after healing begins. Recovery isn't the end of the journey. It's often where the real journey starts.

Kelly shares what it was like rebuilding her life, rediscovering herself, falling in love, helping build Tribal Detox from the ground up, and eventually finding her calling as a Bufo facilitator.

We also dive into how years of serving hundreds of people challenged many of the assumptions surrounding Bufo and ultimately led us to develop a more therapeutic, integration-focused approach to working with the medicine.

In this episode we discuss:

• Life after Ibogaine and addiction recovery
• Returning home and rebuilding a new identity
• Discovering mushrooms and the wider world of plant medicines
• Meeting Jason and the beginning of their relationship
• Building Tribal Detox from the ground up
• Living in Austin while growing a Kambo practice
• Starting the Tribal Detox Kambo Practitioner School
• Building a life around purpose instead of chasing success
• Life on the road during the pandemic
• How Bufo unexpectedly entered Kelly's life
• Training as a Bufo facilitator
• The challenges and responsibility of serving Bufo
• Why not everyone benefits from a full "blast off" experience
• The evolution of a therapeutic approach to Bufo
• Why integration matters just as much as the ceremony itself

This episode is about trusting your path, even when it looks nothing like the one you originally planned.

Sometimes the greatest transformations don't happen because life goes according to plan.

They happen because life completely falls apart and gives you the opportunity to rebuild it with greater purpose.

Mentioned in this episode

• Kambo
• Bufo (5-MeO-DMT)
• Ibogaine
• Psilocybin mushrooms
• Integration
• Tribal Detox
• Church of the Amphibian Arts

Subscribe so you don't miss future conversations as we explore plant medicines, integration, spirituality, science, psychology, and everything that happens beyond the ceremony.

Transcript

0:14

Okay, Kelly, we're back for part two. So we wanted to do a part two because there's just more to the story. So when we left off, you know, you'd, you'd just gone through the Ibogaine aftercare clinic, you know, and then you'd moved back to Creed. Your partner had just also done Ibogaine and gotten clean and, uh, or your previous partner, you know. And, um, and now we're back in Creed, and we're kind of settling back into life again. So let's just kind of take it from there. There might be a little bit of overlap, but let's just take it from when you were in Creed, what that's like, kind of integrating back into home, back into family, and then where your journey goes from there. Yeah. I think I mentioned, um, in the last podcast, like, where-- I think I did mention that at first I didn't want to go to the Ibogaine aftercare, because after Ibogaine, I felt good, like I was good to go. I didn't need anything else. Mm-hmm. But I'm also very grateful that I did end up going to the aftercare because even though I felt, you know, clear from the addiction pretty much the morning after doing Ibogaine, I still kind of needed time to rebalance, reground myself, process things with my previous partner, and kind of restabilizing, getting my health back. Part of that was, you know, sitting with Cambo and just taking care of myself when I was at the Ibogaine aftercare. But I definitely really needed, you know, that time again to integrate, reground, restabilize. And, um, yeah, I was there for three and a half weeks, and then after that, I went home to Creed. And, um, yeah, like, it was, it was, you know, nice coming back home to Creed because at, at the point that I came back from the Ibogaine aftercare, it was pretty much the end of the summer season, and the summer season is very busy in Creed. So coming back from the Ibogaine aftercare, I was going into winter, which, you know, was really great for me because it's, you know, there's not as much to do. I wasn't working. I just kind of had the time and space and capacity to, you know, just process the whole thing, um, the Ibogaine experience, the addiction, um, and just kind of refind myself. But, you know, this time it was, it was different because, um, like, it w- Not that it was, like, easy coming back from addiction, but because I wasn't in addiction too long, you know, I had a normal life beforehand. It was, like, easy for me to get back into the swing of things as, you know, far as that goes, like working the next summer, um, just all that. But It was different. It, it was like I was refinding myself, but it was like refinding myself for the first time. It was like, like I think about the contrast of... And I'm sure a lot of medicine people think this, the contrast between, you know, who you are be- before medicine and, you know, who you are, who you become post-medicine. Did it, did it kind of feel like, you know, because all the way up until the point of addiction, you did all the things you were supposed to do. You, you know, you did well in high school, you went to college, you were a great athlete, you'd gotten a good job, and then you found addiction, and then so finding yourself for the first time, like outside the things you felt like you were supposed to do? Yeah, exactly. It was like a whole new lease on life. Um- Yeah, it was, I mean, it was exciting too because it was like I-- Like even though it's always been important to me to help my family, you know, with our family ranch, I've also had a deep internal knowing that I was always-- that I was gonna do something more than that. And so kind of having a new lease on life, like I'm sure just like everybody does, like through addiction, you, you feel like a lot of shame, like especially because I was a good athlete, a great student, and, you know, people like that are capable of falling into addiction as well. So, you know, while I was in addiction, but some coming back, there was a little bit of, you know, feeling shame like, you know, that I even went through addiction and had that whole experience. So, you know, after doing everything that I was supposed to, falling into addiction, having some shame about that and self-judgment, um, you know, outside of that, it felt like, you know, like I said, I always... It's always been important to me to help my family, but I've always just known deep down that I was going to do something more than that. So it was... But I just never knew what that is. I just had an internal knowing about it. And so even though, of course, I had, you know, some, some shame that I had to work through, you know, following addiction, I was also excited. I was, like, rediscovering my, my path. Like, you know, I did the path of what you're supposed to do, go to college, you know, get a good job, all that. And, you know, I knew that didn't feel right to me. Obviously, when I was going through addiction, that didn't necessarily feel right to my life path. But in a, in a way, it was the biggest gift to my life path because I discovered this whole new world that I felt was meant for me. Um, but yeah, so it was... Yeah, it was just a new version and a new version of Kelly, but also, like, even though I didn't... Like, after getting back from Ibogaine, it's not like I inherently wanted to be a medicine person and, I mean, even helping you start serving Kambo, it's not necessarily like I inherently had that desire. But I knew, you know, outside of my family that there was always something else I was going to do. I wasn't sure how it was going to come into play, but I knew I was on my path to finding it, having, you know, basically been introduced to the medicine world. So that's why I say that even though, you know, it was hard go- going through addiction and, you know, there's... Even before going through addiction, I would've never, you know, thought that that was going to be my life path. But it was a big part of my life path because it led to me, led me to the world that I, you know, live and operate in now. So again, of course, it was hard, but it was actually a huge gift discovering this world because it helped me, you know, discover myself on a whole another level that I ar- always had an internal knowing that I was seeking. I just didn't know it was going to happen through addiction. Hmm. Not something you would choose again, but grateful for what it actually did for you. Yes. And I mean, a lot of people that go through addiction too will say... I mean, like, you know, of course, when you're in the middle of it, it's, you know, it's horribly difficult, but it's also an amazing teacher. So I'm glad even though as I'm going through it, it doesn't feel like it's setting me up on my life path, but it, it, it really did actually set me up on my life path, and that doesn't necessarily mean, um- You know, I would suggest people just go through addiction to learn things, but it, it, it can be an amazing teacher, and it also, again, put me on the path that I always knew was for me. Yeah. Should you happen to find yourself in that place, it can be an amazing teacher. Yes. But don't go seeking it. Yeah, exactly. All right, so you're finding yourself in Crete again. It's the winter, so things are kinda slow. You got a lotta time Yeah. So, you know, when I first came back, it was super chill. Um, I was, you know, living, you know, in a cabin where my, my sister was living at the ranch. And yeah, I had time to kind of, you know, just relax, reground myself, regain my strength, you know, start working out, hanging out with friends, which was really nice because, you know, in addiction you can get pretty isolated. And I mean, one of the things that I remember the most is rediscovering music was so, so fun. So, you know, I... Like I said, it was a very, you know, relaxed, um, situation I was coming into, which was really great to recover from addiction, and I kind of just enjoyed, yeah, rediscovering music. Um, when I was back at home, that was the first time I had ever taken mushrooms. Like, I had taken mushrooms that, you know, um, my ex, you know, the one that went and did ibogaine, had given me, and that was my first mushroom experience. And, you know, right off the bat, like, in between discovering kambo, ibogaine, bufo, and, you know, sitting with mushrooms for the first time, I was super excited. I was like, "You know, this, this is awesome. Mushrooms are awesome." Um, so it was kind of fun to have a relaxed environment to rediscover, you know, a different version of myself and, you know, discovering that some through using psychedelics, I realized how passionate I was about them and what they can do for you. Were, were you ever worried about using psychedelics as kind of leading you back into addiction? Because, you know, in society they don't really differentiate between good drugs and bad drugs, right? It just kinda all falls under one, dare to say, no umbrella. Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, even though, um, you know, obviously, yeah, like you said, in high school and, you know, when, when you're a youth, they talk a lot about drugs and just generally all drugs are bad. Um, I mean, I didn't, you know, because I would say I didn't go the AA route, which, you know, I, I mean, I, I don't know a, you know, a ton of what they teach in that program, but I know things like psychedelics can kind of be, like, off limits. So, like, I didn't necessarily have that train of thought. So, and I mean, especially too because ibogaine was what put me, brought me back to myself. So no, I didn't really have a fear of, um, you know, falling back into addiction with, with another, you know, with another what people consider drugs, even though, you know, we know that that's, there's so much more than that. Mm-hmm. Um, I mean, at first though, I did like taking mushrooms a lot, and I was like, "Oh man, like, I hope it's not a problem that I like taking mushrooms a lot." But, you know, I just did that in the beginning 'cause it was just super fun to discover, and it's obviously the most accessible medicine. What did you like about them? I don't know. It was like, I mean, um, back then, like I remember the first time I took them, I just like kinda watched like some sappy kind of like teenager level movie, and I could just... You could just feel things and be inspired by things. And you know, I wouldn't... I didn't know much about medicine work and coming to the medicine with intention and, and things like that. You know, like for me back then it was like fun. I still learned a lot about myself through, through using them, but it- it's just the depth that it was able to make you feel things and process things bigger picture. Like, you know, like I said, the first time I remember just feeling the intensity of a love story and, you know, I've always been somebody that loves a good love story. So it was just fun to feel that in a much more in-depth level. Mm-hmm. So how long are we in Creed? Or where, where, where does life go from here? Because at some point you have to kind of start moving back into the world, society. Yeah. I mean, at that point I didn't have, like, a, a huge plan, 'cause like I said, it was going into the off-season, so I kind of had, you know, a whole winter to gather, to gather myself. And I didn't necessarily, like, put any pressure on myself to, like, figure out what I'm supposed to do. I mean, you know, of course those thoughts still come up. Um, but you know, like of course I knew that I was going to work the next summer season, 'cause I had amassed a large credit card debt that I knew I needed to pay off in the next summer. But other than that, I didn't have a ton of pressure about, you know, doing anything or f- you know, figuring things out. I just gave myself the space and, and time to just be and enjoy life and have fun and hang out with friends and listen to music. Um, but yeah, like... And I guess that kind of goes into, you know, part of me coming back home. It was really fun, like, you know, we started staying in touch over Facebook Messenger, and then of course it always gets transferred to text message eventually. And you know, we, it was fun, you know, discovering love again through just, um, you know, through getting to know you, just even over text and phone. I mean, I was surprised, you know, that we hit it off so much because, you know, I think I mentioned in the prior episode that neither of us were necessarily looking for a relationship. Mm-hmm. Um- But it felt like just a natural connection. Yeah, it just felt like a natural connection. Like, you know, not a ton of pressure, just us getting to know each other as people. And you know, so of course that was another fun thing about being, being home, is, you know, I would text you a lot. We would eventually switch to having phone calls, and our phone calls would start off as an hour long and then they would be two hours long, four hours long. Um, yeah, and of course that was unexpected, but you know, it was, uh, you know, fun finding love again. Because I didn't know if... I don't know. I don't know if it's just the shame from addiction. I just didn't know if that would be in my cards again. I mean, thinking about it now, it's like of course it would be, but, um, yeah, I just wasn't sure. So it was fun to, um, rediscover love with this new lease on life. Mm-hmm. And so You're, you're feeling like you again. Yeah You know, you're, you're working out, you're having this new potentially romantic connection, and life is good. So from here, well, I guess I come to visit. Yeah, you eventually came up to visit to Creed for the first time. Mm-hmm. Um, and even before you came, like, you know, like I said, there wasn't, there wasn't even any pressure on our relationship. It was just fun getting to know each other. Neither of us really knew where it was going to lead. But I remember you were having a hard time financially, so you weren't sure if you were going to be able to make, you know, make the trip. Um, but I remember thinking in my head back then, like, "If this is my guy, he'll figure out how to make the trip." So of course, I was very happy that you figured it out and came to visit. Yeah. And you know, it was a wonderful visit. It was... I mean, other... That was the first time we saw each other in person outside of the Kambo sessions you served me. Um, but I mean, I don't know if it sounds clich- cliche or fast, but I feel like, you know, we knew in that weekend that, you know, we were each other's life partners. Yeah, it was something really special. Just, just effortless, natural. Yeah. You know, just, just a flow. Yeah, and fun. I mean, it was so much fun. Yeah. Yeah, we had so much fun. And then, so we, you know, we stayed in touch. You know, we kept talking. I, I... We did more than stay in touch. Like, we were, we were a connection. And then, you know, I was down in Austin at that time, and even though neither one of us were, you know, up until that point- We're really looking to get into a relationship. We were kinda at the place where it's like, well, either we need to make this a concerted effort or, or move on with our life. So- Which I'm sure was scary for both of us, considering our last relationships were difficult in their own way, very difficult. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, it was very, very kinda scary. Yeah. You know. But, you know, after talking about it and, and even really just deepening our connection, we thought it'd be good for you to come down to Austin. Yeah, and I mean, at first I came for a visit, but then after coming for a visit, I think I came back to Creede for a month, like, during the Christmastime. And around the first of the year, I moved down to Austin 'cause you had asked me if I, you know, wanted to move down to Austin, and I think I told you at the time, "Of course, I have to be back in Creede to, to work during the summer, but, you know, why not? I'm not doing anything else in Creede, I may as well." And even though it felt scary, it still felt right. Um, yeah, and so I moved down to Austin, and, um, yeah, at this point, like, my main experience in the, in the medicine world was, you know, of course my experience with ibogaine and, um, bufo after, um, at the ibogaine clinic. And, you know, some experimentation with mushrooms. But other than that, like, you know, I really didn't know much about the medicine world. You were more involved at the time, you know, serving Kambo sessions, Kambo groups. And, um, again, like I said, I've never... A- at that point, I didn't n-necessarily inherently have a desire to become a medicine facilitator or... You know, like, I was super excited about psychedelics, the medicine world, but I... And I knew it was going to be my path, I just didn't know how I was going to be involved. Because, you know, I didn't have necessarily an inherent desire to serve people, you know, whatever, Kambo, bufo, uh, mushrooms. So I slowly gained experience not, you know, with Kambo of course, but in just in general the medicine world through, you know, being around for Kambo sessions that you served, and I started helping you with Kambo groups. Um, and it was really nice to kind of learn the medicine path, I guess, of a medicine facilitator through, you know, you ki-kind of being the lead on it. 'Cause you know, you as the lead, like, you know, you know a lot more about Kambo. You're taking responsibility for the safety of the clients. It felt like a lot, but I felt confident learning it with you leading. Mm-hmm. So, so, you know- Up until this point, really you're, uh, at least with Campbell, your only exposure was there at the clinic, you know- Mm-hmm when I, when I came to serve y'all. So now you're starting to work beside me. You're starting to get involved. And, you know, yes, we're serving Campbell, but you're m- you're starting to meet a lot of people, a lot of different types of people, you know, people that You know, it's like if you walked into a doctor's office and in the lobby and went around the room and just asked everybody why, why they're there. It, it's kinda similar in a kembo group. So- Yeah so w- w- w- Like, just tell us about this experience. What are you feeling? Like, is it excitement? Is it nerves? Is it fear? I would say it's, you know, a little bit of all of those. Like, you know, it was exciting because, you know, even though I didn't necessarily have a desire to serve medicine, I was excited to discover my role in the medicine world. And so it was, it was exciting, kind of scary. But I mean, it w- in a way, it was, it was also fascinating. Like, it just... It's just wild how much medicine can bring people together. I mean, people are coming from all different walks of life. You know, everybody has a different need for healing. It doesn't matter if you were born rich or if you were born poor. Um, you know, when people find themselves in a medicine circle, it's always fascinating to hear the why and the, the background and get to know that person. Like, I love getting to know people. Um- Because the medicine world really is just kinda like this little subculture of society that not a lot of people know about, but it's right there under your... There could be a medicine ceremony going right, right on next door at your neighbor's house, and you wouldn't even know it. Yeah, so it was just, um, fascinating to get to be exposed to all different walks of life and hearing people's stories and their need for healing and just being inspired by it all. You know, the human experience can vary so much from person to person. Like, you know, my path, of course, was different than your path. Um, and you know, your path is going to be different, sometimes similar to every, every client that you serve. So I just loved hearing people's stories. And I mean, also, I mean, we, we tell this to our kembo practitioners that we teach, like, if you're a medicine person, there's nothing more fulfilling than to see somebody struggling, maybe at their rock bottom, maybe close to it, and bring themselves back, and just the human strength to overcome. Like, there's nothing, as a medicine person, there's nothing better than that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, 'cause usually when we meet people, we meet people in their brokenness, you know, and just, uh... Yeah, you're absolutely right. To see people broken and sometimes shattered, and then to watch them put the pieces back together with the assistance of the medicine and bring themselves back To, to thriving Yeah. It's just super, it's, it's super inspiring and it's, it's a gift as a medicine person to get to be witness to people's journey in that depth. Um, but yeah, like it was, again, it was a comfortable environment for, for me to learn, you know, of course about Kambo and, you know, serving medicine in general. Um, and you know, like I always tell my Kambo students too, like, ibogaine's what brought me back. Like, Kambo isn't to me what it is to you. And you know, just like it's not the same as everybody else's. Every student that we've had, their relationship with it is, is all a little bit different. But you know, my relationship really grew with the medicine when, you know, like I had more of an interest in the psychedelic side, side of things. I didn't know much about Kambo. But one, seeing people on their journeys and seeing the comebacks they make, and see how just, just how powerful of an effect Kambo had on people, it, you know, really excited me about, you know, getting to work, getting to work with this and getting to work in this field. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, we had just seen, uh, um, all walks of life, you know, come to Kambo. A lot of people get maybe their physical health back, their mental health back, and it was just super exciting and inspiring and my passion and love for Kambo grew because I was starting to really understand what it was capable of. Mm-hmm. So you spent about four months, maybe four and a half months down in Austin, but then you gotta go back home. Yes. So I was, yeah, I was in Austin with you for a few months, started serving Kambo with you, started serving Kambo groups and I eventually came back home, you know, because like I said, I had to work the busy tourist summer season to pay off the credit card debt that I had amassed. So yeah, you know, I lived in Austin with you for about three or four months, slowly learning the medicine world, learning more about Kambo, learning about holding space and, um, yeah, running Kambo groups. And, um Eventually, you know, I had to go back home to Creed to, you know, pay off my, my credit card debt and, debt and work here in the, in the summer. Um, but you know, after living in Austin with you, like, of course, discovering the medicine world, serving medicine, the power of Kambo, like, that was one part that was amazing about living in Austin. But, you know, even our, our relationship in Austin, like, you know, of course, it's the beginning part of the relationship where we just had so much fun, you know, fell in love super hard and just enjoyed each other, even- Well, I say Austin was the city we fell in love. Yes. Like, I mean, even simple things of, you know, even doing DoorDash together or walking dogs together to, to make extra money or going to the bowling alley, like, you know, that part of Austin, you know, was, was amazing a- as well as learning about the medicine world. But of course, when it was time for me to come home and we were separated, of course, that was very hard. Um, and I don't think when I first moved back, you, um... like, when I moved back, I don't think you at that point had had a plan to move to Creed. Well, no, because, you know, I was still... I mean, I'm, I'm delivering food, I'm walking dogs, and I'm serving Kambo, and I just... Like, I knew Like money was tight. It, it was hard getting this thing off the ground. So I was going to go to massage school to, to, to, you know, to get my mas- massage license to, so I could make money doing that as well. Yeah, especially because Creed is a very small town and not necessarily a medi- a, a heavy medicine town. So, you know, you were considering getting a massage license to make money and make a living here because we knew we wouldn't have as big of a Campbell audience- No of course, that we did in Austin. Um, I can't remember why that didn't end up panning out, but you know, you eventually moved up to Creed. Well, it was because... Well, this is what happened. Uh, so yeah, yeah. It's, it's a little hard to remember 'cause this was 2019, I think, at this point. Mm-hmm. So they had raised my rent- Mm-hmm up by like $300. And you could barely afford what you were paying. Yeah. And if I was going to stay, I was going to have to commit to another, I think it was, it was, it was like fort- six- $1,600 at six months and like $1,400 at 12 months. So I was like, "I can't afford either one of those." Yeah. So you know, i- in a way, even that happening, of course, was a gift because it, um, initiated you moving to Creed quicker. And not going to massage school. And not going to massage school, which I don't think massage school would've been a Jayce thing. Um, but yeah, like, you know, when you first moved up here, um, you know, it, again, just like falling in love with each other was a little scary. Moving up here is scary because, you know, you, you had started building a large Campbell practice in Austin and, you know, moving to Creed where there's not very many people- You know, it's kind of scary because our passion was figuring out how to do this essentially. So when you first moved up, we figured out, you know, that we could kind of condense our clients, you know, within a, like a 10-day period, and we would go down to Texas every six weeks and serve multiple groups in sometimes Houston, but most, uh, mostly Dallas and Austin. And so that was great to be able to do, figure out how we could both be in Creede, but, you know, you could still serve your Kambo practice that you had built in Texas. Um, and yeah, we did that, you know, we did that, of course, that whole summer when you first moved up here. And at, I can't remember when, but at some point in the summer, you know, always, we always tell our students that Jason is the visionary. Kelly's not a visionary whatsoever. But I am a realist that grounds things into reality, so, you know, we each have a different part to not only what we do with Tribal Detox, but of course in our relationship. So you came up with the idea to start a Kambo practitioner school. Um, and we always joke around with our students because, um, whenever, me not being a visionary, whenever he said that, you know, it was hard for me to, uh, to imagine. And I, um, I told him like, "Do you think anybody would come to it?" And, you know, of course now it's been, I mean, I don't know how many years, how many practitioners we've served, but, uh, you know, it was the start of us You know, starting- Starting the Kambo school. Yeah. Um, so yeah, like, you know, you went back and forth between Creed and Texas serving medicine. Some trips I would go with you, some trips I wouldn't because I was still working a lot. And we eventually did our first Kambo practitioner training program in October of 2019. And I think at some point that summer you had... I had shown you what is now the Kambo house. It was a house that my, that my, that's been in my family almost as long as my family's ranch has been in our family. And, um, you know, it was, it was my childhood home that my family spent a lot of time, uh, building and it was... Looking back now, it's, our students even say this to this day, it's like the perfect house for Kambo school. It has five bedrooms, three and a half bathrooms with the bath- with- which the bathrooms are nice, you know, for Kambo 'cause of course it's very common to need the bathroom in Kambo. Um, but when I... At the time that I had showed you, it, it wasn't quite finished. Like, we had, um, when my dad was building it, we had moved into it like partially unfinished. Um, and yeah, so there were still some things that needed done, like there was some wallpaper trim, you know, a few finishing things that needed to be done before the house was usable for Kambo school. So at first, we did the first couple schools on my family, on a cabin in my family's ranch and, you know, the first one was October of 2019. And, um, you know, still at this point, like of course I'm still relatively new to the medicine world. Like, even though like I've been doing this with you, like I still, um, you know, didn't Like, I mean, I had just gained my confidence serving Kambo, so it was like a whole nother ballgame- Start teaching it gaining my confidence teaching Kambo. Mm-hmm. So I was... I would say the first couple schools I was a little bit more hens- hands-off with it. You know, again, because you're the visionary, you know, I'm the realist, I have to, you know, work my way into it until I, I can feel my r- what my role is. I was kinda working all the kinks out of it- Yeah, yours t- for the first couple. Yeah, so, you know, I was a little bit more hands-off with the first couple schools. Um, but just like I did when I was learning Kambo, I just was there with you and observed and, and learned, and figure, eventually figured out what my role to this Kambo practitioner training program was. Yeah, and then so the, the rest of the, the schools we ended up doing in the Kambo house, and I, again, slowly gained my confidence in, you know, understanding my role in the Kambo, the Kambo school. But, you know, with the pandemic school, though, that, that was really the first one that kinda showed us we're onto something, 'cause that's right when COVID broke out or was really getting hot anyways. There were lockdowns starting to occur. They're making everybody stay inside. And I remember, or I remember we told the, the students, "We understand what's happening in the world. If anybody wants to cancel, we'll refund them completely or whatever." And every single one of them were like, "We're coming." Started to communicate with each other on who's bringing what, what groceries, how they're gonna travel, and that's how we knew that, okay, we have something here. Yeah. Yeah, just the fact that people still wanted to, to come to the training program in the middle of lockdown where it was, it was difficult to, to travel. Um, yeah, that school, the first one in, in the Kam- what is now the Kambo house, you know, was exciting for us because we had a whole group of people that were also just as excited as we were. Mm-hmm. Um, and then we, you know, did a few more schools in the, in the summer house, and at the time me and Jason were living at my family's ranch. And, you know, I, I think for everybody, like during the pandemic, you know, a lot, there was a lot of stuff, um, you know, not just for us, but, you know, for everybody in the world, um, where family, family tensions grew, and it was difficult living at the ranch. Because, because of multiple factors, it was hard to focus on the Kambo school, be there for, be there for my family to help them- us move past the honeymoon in our relat- honeymoon phase in our relationship. And, you know, we started seeing some of the kinks that we had to work out, not just in the Kambo School, but in our relationship. And it was a difficult environment to do that, um, you know, while living at the ranch. So for about a year, we, um, moved into a van and, um, took kind of the whole Kambo practitioner training program on the road. And, you know, so we built out a van and then moved down to Texas so, and this is, this is about October-ish 2020, we decided to go on the road, go down to Texas, 'cause I already had a big clientele down there. Yeah. Yeah, and I think we did a, a couple schools, not in Creede. Um, we did one in Denver in a Airbnb in Colorado, and then we had hosted another one in Durango from one of our practitioners from the pandemic class. And then, you know, we eventually, yeah, took it down to Texas, you know. And Texas made sense because I had a lot of clients down there that were interested in becoming practitioners, going through the training. Yeah. So, yeah. And we did, we did schools at various different places in Texas. Um, but yeah, like, you know, like I said, um, the pandemic, you know, heated things up. There was familial tensions, and that's a big part of the reason why we went onto the road. And, um, you know, even though that was the right decision for us at that point, um, you know, it, it was, it was difficult, you know, being on the road in the middle of a pandemic, trying to figure out the, the Kambo school thing. Still lockdowns. Still lockdowns. Down there that entire year and everybody's masked up. Yeah, it's just a, it was just a weird time. And even though it was, you know, it was a weird time, it was difficult, you know, the family tensions didn't make it easy on me. But also, you know, looking back, it was an extremely difficult thing to go through. However- And then I wasn't easy to be around, 'cause my stress was through the roof trying to bring this vision to life. Yeah. And it was just the perfect storm of chaos. Yeah, but even though looking back on that time, it was a very difficult time, that time was also a gift because, you know, it was gr- you know, it was good for both of us to be outside of Creede, see what was happening in the world. Because sometimes in Creede it's, it's hard to have a full vision of what the rest of the world is- Mm-hmm because Creede kind of feels like its own little world that's not subject to the, the rest of the rules to society. So it was good for us to, um, go through a growing experience amongst our relationship and through the Kambo School in order to better it, but also have the perspective of what was going on in the world, which like I said, would've been more difficult to see from Creede. So we're on the road. We're-- It's hard. It's extremely challenging, but we're making it happen. We're serving Kambo. We're teaching Kambo. Like, we're able to survive by doing what we're doing., Like, you know, our, um... You know, when we were in Creed, you know, my life is a mix of, you know, medicine, Kambo school, but also my family. But when we were on the road, you know, our whole life was just medicine work, teaching Kambo, um- Sure you know, of course, living our life, but, you know, teaching Kambo, serving Kambo, you know, being exposed to various aspects of the medicine world. We had even, you know, started and just kind of experimenting with, you know, doing different things outside of the Kambo training. Like, we did mushroom hikes and, and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. Like, our whole world was medicine. Pure medicine. So, you know, you're doing this alongside me, but kinda like how it was with the ranch, you knew you wanted, you know, to, to do more than just that. It was the same with, with Kambo. You know there was still more for you beyond that. Yeah. Yeah, and that's the thing is, like, even though, um, I'm a Kambo person in my own way, you know, because I've helped you create Tribal Detox, like, even though I loved, you know, Kambo a lot and just saw the power and the potential of it, like I always... O-once I gained my confidence in, you know, working Kambo groups with you and teaching, I always knew that I wanted to serve, you know, a psychedelic medicine because that was more along the lines, you know, that, you know, that was more my interest even though, you know- Because you kinda landed into Kambo by default. Mm-hmm. It wasn't actually a pursuit. Yeah, exactly. Um, and you know, like I said, I'm still a Kambo person in my own way, but you know, I'm- Mm-hmm I'm landing in the Kambo world, you know, through you leading essentially. Mm-hmm. But I always knew because I had more of an interest in the psychedelic side of things, that once I gained confidence in, you know, working with medicines and helping you teach, like, um... Because before, like I said, I didn't inherently have a desire to serve medicine 'cause I didn't have the confidence. Like, um, but once I had enough confidence, like I, you know, I did wanna, you know, work with something outside of Kambo. I just didn't know what that was. I knew it wasn't ibogaine, you know, because, um... 'cause I didn't wanna work in a clinic. Like, you know, I wanted to kinda, you know, do the lifestyle that we were doing. Um- But yeah, I, you know, I, we experimented some, you know, through, you know, doing mushrooms hikes. We didn't necessarily do mushroom ceremonies, but, you know, kind of just experimenting with a- adding a psychedelic piece to, you know, the work that we were doing with Kambo. And, um, I had, you know, even before we left CREED, I had, you know, I was kind of curious about and interested in learning to work with bufo because I knew I didn't wanna work with ibogaine just 'cause it, you know, seemed too intense and too, um, clinical. This is, this a l- yeah. Yeah, clinical for what I wanted to do. Um, but like the, the woman that had served me bufo at the ibogaine clinic, you know, I was friends with her on Facebook, and I think I had messaged her asking her if she was willing to, to teach me, and this was back when we still were in CREED. And, you know, she said she didn't have a, you know, an interest in, in teaching anybody. And, you know, I didn't take any offense to that. Like, you know, I totally get that. And even though I had that desire to work with something outside of Kambo, as my confidence was increasing, I kinda took that as a sign. Like, "Just focus on Kambo for now. Don't worry about it. Like, if this is meant for you, it will come into your... and it will, it will come into your world," which is essentially, um, kind of what happened through, through us being on the road. You know, like I said, our whole world was medicine. We experimented doing mushroom hikes with people, which, you know, was, which was a lot of fun, and that was great. Um, and of course, teaching Kambo schools. But, you know, bufo kind of You know, without me expecting it to came into our world to work with it, um, without any planning, I guess. But we had taught a Kambo school at a entheogenic psychedelic church in, in Huntsville. We had taught a Kambo school there and, um, the woman that owned the church was inspired by what we had done with the Kambo training, you know, and she served peyote. Or she didn't serve peyote, but you know, she had peyote people come in, ayahuasca people come in, bufo people come in, and her main medicine that she worked with was bufo. So she was kind of inspired by what we had, what she had seen, um, through our Kambo training being hosted there. She was inspired to maybe do something similar with bufo, so that's kind of how bufo came into our world. And again, because, you know, my focus in CREED, you know, half my focus is helping my family, but, you know, obviously, a big part of my focus is medicine. But when we were on the road, our whole focus was medicine. So once we had done that Kambo training there, she was inspired by, you know, what she had seen, wanted to do the, the same for herself with bufo, and that was the first Kambo school that we ended the Kambo training with a bufo graduation, which is what we do now in, in CREED for our trainings. And, you know, of course, so I sat with bufo at the end of that Kambo training and, um- And when we say bufo graduation, essentially it's just an opportunity to sit with bufo at the end of the Kambo school. Yeah. So, um... And you know, I hadn't sat with bufo since I had, you know, done or since I was at the Ibogaine clinic. The other clinic. Yeah. And, you know, like I said, this wasn't anything like I planned of like bringing bufo into the mix. It, it was kind of just where our path was leading us. So, you know, like I said, with our... We were on the road, our whole focus is in medicine. After, you know, the woman that owned that church was inspired to kind of do the same with the bufo training program, over the course of the next couple months, two or three months, um, we were in Dallas-Fort Worth, uh, at the time. This was in Huntsville, so I was kind of going back and forth volunteering for ceremonies, kind of just, again, learning more, even more about the medicine world, just more the bufo side of it versus the Kambo side of it. And yeah, I volunteered for ceremonies, you know, of course, sat with bufo various times during that- two or three month per-- like three to four month period. And, um, I kinda helped the woman, not exactly put together the bufo training in the sense that, like, I didn't know much about bufo at the time, but more in the sense of, like, how to organize trainings because we had experience with it. And, you know, so I was somewhat involved in that, and then I went to the first training in May of 2021. And so, like I said, we never really planned on bringing bufo into the m-mix. It's kind of just the path that we were on and that we happened to be on because we were on the road and our whole focus was, you know, medicine work. Um, so yeah, I went to the first training. That was May of 2021. So, you know, you, you went from experiencing bufo a couple of times to now you're in the training. How long is this training? Yeah, the training was essentially two weeks. And this is the first one because this is the one you're assisting with. Yeah. Or kind of helping structure. Yeah, helping structure. I mean, like I said, I still didn't know much about bufo at the time, but yeah, I went through the first training program. It was two weeks. And yeah, it just, you know, obviously not just introduced bufo, it's, you know, where, you know, bufo really, you know, came into our world and working with it 'cause, you know, of course, I'm learning to work with it. But what is... You don't have to go into all the details, but I mean, sitting with bufo is a lot. Yeah. Just, just experiencing one time is a lot. And, and for most people, that's, that does them for the rest of their life. So what is this training like? How often are y'all sitting with bufo? What's the intensity? Yeah. Um, I mean, as far as the training program of, you know, it was a very intense training program in the sense of sitting with a lot of medicine. And, um, you know, every day the medicine that we would sit with were blastoff dosages, which, you know, for people that don't know what that is, it's a large dosage of bufo that, um, results in a full crossover ego death experience. So very intense experiences. And, you know, we did blastoffs every day multiple times a day for two weeks. So, you know, of course, it was a lot. While I was in it, I don't think I realized, you know, how- Kind of magnitude of it the magnitude of it, yeah. Because I don't know, I'm just that type of person when, like, I commit to something, like, I'm all in and I'm just focused. So I think while I was there, I was just, you know, very focused on learning this medicine. And, um, yeah, like, you know, compared to our relationship with this medicine now, like, you know, it was different back then, you know, especially sitting with blastoffs because they're such intense experiences. It's harder to... Like, if you're served a lighter dose, you can kind of be more present with the consciousness of the medicine and, you know, really fine-tune or sift through what it's trying to tell you. With blastoffs, it's a little bit more difficult because of the intensity of the experience 'Cause it, it wa- I mean, this is really when bufo's starting to... People are starting to learn about it, but it, it was the wi- I mean, it's still the Wild West, but back then it was the Wild West. Yeah. Yeah. And I, yeah, I mean, for, you know. Yeah, it... I mean, it wasn't... Yeah, it was just a lot of medicine. Mm-hmm. And again, I didn't realize the magnitude of it at the time. Um, but yeah, like I said, because they were very intense experience, a lot of times with ego dissolution, it's hard to... Like, you can remember when you leave and come back into your body, but sometimes the middle part is a little hard to not only remember, but also because it's difficult to remember, it's hard to process and understand what it's trying to teach you. So I didn't get into the depths of that aspect of the relationship with bufo, you know, like, like we have now through our approach of working with it. But it's one thing I was very grateful that I learned there is, you know, because Like, I learned the ceremony aspect of, of the medicine, which, you know, we were somewhat ceremonial for Kambo, but not, you know, extremely ceremonial. And, you know, I don't necessarily have, like, a background in Reiki or sound bowls or, you know, even... I mean, even something as simple as burning sage and palo santo, like, you know, other than some of that in, in Kambo sessions that we used. Like, I didn't have much experience in, like, conducting a ceremony. So I was very grateful to learn that aspect of it. You know, as, as far as the depths of really understanding the medicine, it was still kind of blurry at that time because, again, the intensity of the experience and also not realizing how, you know, the magnitude of the experiences that I was going through. But one thing other than the ceremony that I, you know, nailed down at that training was the trust aspect with Bufo because- To die and come back. Yeah Die and come back. Die and come back To, to go into that every day, multiple times a day, that, that takes a lot of trust. So, you know, I greatly trusted this medicine. I don't know if I under- You know, I didn't understand it at the time to the depths that we understand it now. And, you know, still to this day, you can never say you fully understand Bufo 'cause it's always got s- No, yeah. Nobody really understands. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so I was, I was grateful for that, you know, learning the ceremony aspect of medicine, you know, serving medicine, but also the trust aspect. You know, it- it's, it's big. Like, that's... Even though we work with Bufo a little bit differently than how I was trained, like, I'm very grateful for what I did learn at that training. Um, but it's, it's kind of... It's-- That's ki- what's kind of interesting about our story because, you know, just like, you know, we've been talking about, like, how, like, I kind of came into the Kambo world, I probably wouldn't, you know, have served Kambo or taught Kambo unless, you know, you were my partner. The same, you know, the opposite is true with Bufo. I, you know, through doing the training, learned the trust aspect of this medicine majorly, so I trusted this medicine, you know, hugely, probably more than I should have. But, you know, Jason's more of a Kambo person, the psychedelic side of things. You have a little bit more fear around it, I would say. Yeah. So just like I likely wouldn't be working with Kambo unless it were for you, you definitely probably wouldn't be working with Bufo unless it were for me. No, I was actually really scared of Bufo at this point. I, I would, I would say, you know, up until the point that you went through the training, I was almost kind of anti-Bufo. I didn't understand it. Didn't know... The woman that trained you was always trying to get me to sit with it, but I, I... Nobody could really explain it to me, and she would say things like, "You're, you're gonna think you're dead, but you're not actually dead." But, but then, you know, so I didn't have an understanding, and then you would see these wild reactions that did not look pleasant at all when they were in the experience. But when they would come out of the experience, and you'd ask them, "How was that?" And they would be like, "Oh, it was just the most beautiful, transcendent experience." Well, that's not what it looked like. You know? So I was, I was very, uh, yeah, fearful is a good word. Yeah, fearful, hesitant. Um, but yeah, like, so I mean, eventually after the training, um, we came home to Creed, or, you know, we came back to Creed, and, you know, we were living in the van at first. Um, but, you know, o-over the, the summer of being back in Creed after attending that training, you know, is when we slowly started, you know, working with the medicine more, serving more people, and we eventually started doing Kambo schools back in, in the Kambo house. And, you know, some of our experience in serving Buf- a, a lot of our experience with serving Bufo, especially at first, you know, was the Kam- the Bufo graduation at the end of Kambo training. You know, of course, we still served, you know, some sessions locally. You know, some people would come to us to sit with it. Um, but you know, at this point, when we first came back to Creed, this is us, you know, really- learning the medicine as far as like, you know, of course I learned the ceremony and the trust aspect, but it real- you really, b- I mean, for both Kambo and Bufo, you really start to learn the medicine once you start serving it. Like, training can only teach you so much, but the medicine through serving it teaches you the rest. So- Well, even sitting only teaches you so much 'cause you have your experience, but there is such a wide range of ex- because every, you know, medicine experience is gonna be subjective to that individual. So until you start serving different individuals is when you really start to see the wide array of experiences that people can actually have with something like Bufo. Yeah. So yeah, like, and you know, a lot of our, again, especially in the beginning, a lot of our experience was serving the Kambo school Bufo graduations. Okay, so, you know, we're starting To serve Bufo and we're, we're serving, you know, the, the students at the end of the Kambó school, and we're starting to serve, you know, some clients outside of the Kambó school. And we'll just take this from your perspective. Like, what are you seeing? What are How, how is this feeling? Yeah, I mean, again, like, I had the trust aspect down. I still, I still knew I had a lot to learn, and I even remember for the first couple years thinking like, "Oh, I can't wait till this doesn't feel as, like, nerve-wracking." Again, you never fully You know, you never say you can fully understand the medicine because, you know, when you say that, Bufo comes in with a surprise. But, um, yeah, I had the trust aspect down, but, like, I didn't feel super It was nerve-wracking learning to work with it, you know, like, until I felt more confident about the varied reactions. And the other thing that made it difficult to work with is bec- even though I had the trust aspect down, you didn't have the trust as- aspect down, and it's- No, I was a nervous wreck- every time you served that medicine. When I was needing to assist you, and it was And I was not making it easy for you to serve- No Bufo. It was It, you know, it was difficult because, like, you know, again, even though I had the trust aspect, like, and you know, I'm a highly empathic, you know, I'm a, a Pisces, uh, astrology symbol, so, like, I, I can feel things deeply. So even if you would act like you were all good to go, I could feel, you know, y- you, you just I c- I could feel the, your lack of trust. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, I, I, I of course I understood that because, you know, you didn't go through the experience I went through in, in Bufo training. Um, but in order for you to gain trust and for us both to gain confidence in working with the medicine, you know, we have to serve people, as nerve-wracking as it is. Um, so yeah, like, that was a difficult part. You know, you know, Jason kind of not having that lack of trust was a difficult part of starting to work with it, but also just, you know, being extremely new and fresh to it. Um, but yeah, like, and how I was trained and, and you know, this is how a lot of people think in the Bufo world where it's very common to serve, again, what A blast-off dosage, which is essentially a near-death experience, um, ego dissolution in its purest form. I mean, you of course can get ego dissolution on any medicine, but you know, with Bufo ego dissolution, I've believe is ego dissolution in its purest form. And that's how a lot of people think about what the Bufo experience is. The Bufo experience is dying. It's a near-death experience. It is ego dissolution. And so, you know, that's how most people work with it. That's how I was taught to work with it, and that's how we did work with it, you know, because we did- But with the understanding of that's the place you have to get them to. Yeah. Yeah. Like, people, you know, think of it, yeah, like, that's- That's a point of the experience is to get them to cross over, get them, you know, to the other side. And so yeah, of course, you know, we served blast off dosages because, you know, that was how, that was the only way we knew to work with it. And, um, so, but after the first year of, you know, serving it, you know, of course, we're, you know, really trying to learn this medicine. And, you know, of course, people have super beautiful, profound experiences. But you also discover not everybody's ready to have their ego dissolved. Yeah. You know, s- some, you know, even though, like I always, you know, tell people, like some people's psyches are more fragile than others, especially if, you know, someone maybe has gone through a lot of trauma in life, you know, maybe is, you know, dealing with complex PTSD. Sometimes the blast-off is almost too much of an experience or just too intense of an experience where of course it's beautiful and profound, but after, you know, coming back and trying to integrate and process it, it's almost too overwhelming to The, I don't know, the, the person, the sys- their system, their nervous system It's almost like you know too much. Yeah. So in, you know, even though it's a beautiful experience, you know, we had found with some people that it could be actually destabilizing afterwards. So, you know, discovering this with a few clients, like we had one client in particular that had a particularly destabilizing experience post-bufo, where she had a, a reactivation every night for like f- five weeks after the experience. And, you know, a reactivation is essentially, you know, it can... It's essentially like a- It's like going back into bufo Yeah, it's like going back into bufo, essentially. And, you know, she was having this experience every night before she went to the bed, before she went to bed, to the point that w- she was scared to go to sleep. Which is, you know, it's like if you're trying to do something as relaxing as just using the bathroom, and then the dimension starts to change on you for no reason. You can feel like you're going crazy. Yeah. So, you know, she was, you know, um, an extreme version of what we had kind of been observing through serving the medicine. But, you know... And this was a, a local woman and, you know, keep in mind that like my family's lived in Creede for 140 years, so everybody knows me, and when people are having experiences like this where they're destabilized for four to six weeks afterwards, like, you know, that's the... You know, I care so much about Creede and the people in it, it's like that's the last thing that I, you know, wanna do to people. Like, I want to, you know, introduce them to the magic of the, this medicine, not the, not destabilize them. Um, so you know, again, she was an extreme case of what we had been seeing the first year of serving this medicine. But, you know, we had other clients that also had, um, integration difficulties. Maybe not that intense, but still. And they eventually came back to baseline. It just took a while. Yeah. It was very uncomfortable. Yeah, and I think... I mean, I, we had even, even, even observed it some in, in the bufo graduations post-kambo school. Like, to me, what I always wanted the bufo graduation to be for the kambo training is I didn't want the bufo experience to then make the whole kambo training about this bufo experience at the end. I wanted it to be a nice little touch on the kambo school experience that brought everything together. But, you know, we didn't have a... With the kambo students, we didn't have an extreme case of, you know, the one client that reactivated for every night for five weeks. But I could just tell, it, it was just something internally I think we both sensed, you know, that people seemed really kind of quiet and discombobulated after the experience. And sometimes after, you know, blasting them off after the kambo training, like they would forget all about kambo and then want to go to, you know, this training that I went to and It, people just... I, I, I mean, I don't- It seemed like people were losing themselves. Yeah. It, it, like I had this... We, I feel like we both had an internal knowing, but like especially me wanting it to be a nice touch on the Kambo school experience that brought everything together, I could tell that's not what we were achieving. Mm-hmm. Um, so that coupled with, you know, a couple clients outside of Kambo trainings that had difficult integration periods, I think we both had an internal knowing like, this can be done better. Mm-hmm. You know, the medicine Yeah, we just knew this medicine was capable of helping people in a way that wasn't destabilizing But that was also kind of a scary thought because at least we didn't know of anyone else working with it differently Yeah, not, not at the time. And so yeah, you know, because that's how everybody works with it, that's how I was trained to work with it, and that's how we were working with it, it was kind of scary to experiment, especially 'cause, you know, I don't know, it's just scary to experiment with something powerful like bufo. But, you know... And, and, and the other thing that's interesting too is, like, even though it was difficult dealing with your lack of trust when we first started serving the medicine, in a way it was a gift to me because that coupled with some of the things I was observing helped me realize there is a way that we can do this better that's not discombobulating, and that people can get more out of it. And so, like, you know, sometimes your fear around it helped me realize the need to shift working with it. So in a way, it was difficult in the beginning, but it was also a gift for me to have this realization. Um, but yeah, we started experimenting with serving people a little bit less. And of course, like I said, it's, you know, it's a little bit nerve-wracking 'cause we're still finding our way with this medicine. And yeah. And it, it, it's fearful because, like, a lot of people, I mean, still to this day, but especially back then, you know, talk about how you've got to get them there, you've got to get them to cross over. And, you know, they don't nev- they don't ever really have a good explanation of why. But, you know, experimenting working with it differently, you have a fear that something bad's gonna happen if that's not the case. And, you know, I explain this to our Kambo students, you know, when I explain how we work with this medicine. We work with it in lighter dosages, so it's almost a more therapeutic way of working with it, where you're more present in your body, um, and you're more... The ego is, is somewhat intact, so it's easier to process and easier to understand what it's teaching you in a way that you can actually do something with it to change your life. But again, it's, it's scary trying to experiment working with it differently because of how everybody else viewed it. But I tell this to Kambo students, this is what I compare it to. It's similar to when we first started doing the Kambo training, where, you know, before the Kambo training, part of the reason why you wanted to shift working with Kambo is, you know, for a similar reason, is that, you know, some people did get harmed from doing Kambo sessions from, like, hyponatremia or maybe too many dots. It was all focused on the purge. Yeah. The whole Focus of, uh, the Kambo session until, you know, we started training people and maybe kinda shifting that idea a little bit, is that there's a lot more to Kambo than just purging, and that people don't have to purge to get the benefits of Kambo. But yeah, like, there used to be so much pressure on Kambo sessions in order... Like, the whole point of the experience is purging. So yeah, this is how I compare it to Bufo, is c- people think of Bufo in a similar way. But instead of purging, it's more blasting off, ego death, near-death experience. So, you know, just like we've shifted people into thinking that the whole goal of a Kambo session is to not purge, and that there's a lot more to that medicine than just purging, we try to shift of how people think of Bufo, where there's a lot more to Bufo than just a near-death experience. And whether it's putting pressure on somebody to purge in a Kambo session or putting pressure on somebody to make sure they cross over, it puts a lot of un-needed pressure on the session for it to just be whatever it is. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, like that's... But again, it's, it's scary starting to shift work with it like, like this way, but, you know, through experimentation, we just trusted our intuition and started experimenting working with lower dosages. You know, w- with I guess with the blast-offs, you know, the- there's definitely a benefit to that to the right person at the right time, you know? Yeah. And there's been people that have literally just had complete life-changing experiences with that. But, you know, but then again, people also can become very destabilized. You don't know who, which one is which until after the experience. That's, that's kind of the tricky part with that. You know, you... Yes, you can do a lot of, uh, you know, prep work and evaluations and things like that, but you, you never know just how someone's going to handle that- blast-off experience. And s- you know, so you shifted to start working with it in a more therapeutic manner, and in a sense, you kind of discovered at least working with it therapeutically is, it's im- it's actually a benefit to keep the ego intact. Yeah. And, you know, as we're experimenting working with it, like even though we're still kind of finding our ground, I could sense that you felt more comfortable working with it, you know- Yeah in a more grounded- I could trust it. Yeah. It was easier to trust it. But yeah, working with it in a therapeutic way, you know, like you said, the ego being intact, like, you know, sometimes, you know, I feel like it's common to misunderstand the ego and, you know, what it's there for. Like, the ego isn't all bad. The ego is meant to protect you. That's why, you know, the ego sometimes freaks out when somebody has a blast-off that they weren't expecting, and people can have those extreme reactions because it's essentially the ego trying to hang on to what it's supposed to, which is keeping you alive. So but, you know, we've kind of found in working with it, uh, in a therapeutic way, it... You know, we've found that people get a lot. You know, not that you can't get anything out of a blast-off. Of course, you can. But in working with it in a therapeutic way, people get... We have seen people get more out of it in a way that they can actually change their life versus just change, help them understand the universe better. Um, but yeah. Life's objective to their life. Yeah, subjective to their life. So, you know, so you start kind of changing the way you're working with it. And how does... What, what are you seeing? Or at least how does it feel in the ceremony space? Is it not so nerve-wracking? So yeah, working with it in a, in a therapeutic way, um, you know, we saw people get more out of it in a way that they can, you know, change their life. And, you know, part of the reason why that is, is like I said earlier, in a, in a blast off when you're having a near-death experience, you know, leaving your body and coming back into your body are the main things you remember. But sometimes the in-between can be blurry. But when people are more present in their body and you don't, you know, fully cross over, it's easier to not only process it in the experience, but process it in the integration afterwards. Um, but yeah, you're a lot more present with the medicine and, you know, again, there's a lot of comparison to Kambo and Bufo, you know, for us. But we-- It's the same thing we teach in the Kambo training. You know, the first session we have people do in the Kambo training is a self-administer, and we usually have them do a few dots less than what they would, you know, normally comfortably sit with, like with the facilitator. And Jason always tells the students, "Sometimes if you turn the intensity down a little bit, the messages can actually come through clearer because instead of trying to survive the medicine experience, you're present with it. You're present with the energy of the medicine." So this is something we discovered in working with it in lighter dosages, and we found it's, you know, beneficial instead of just blasting through the ego with ego dissolution. We found it beneficial in a way for the ego to somewhat be intact in the experience, because that's how you develop a relationship with the medicine, is by your ego, your, your sense of self interacting with the consciousness of the medicine. Yeah. Yeah, no, totally. You know, it's-- The ego, the ego's fragile, and the ego's whole purpose is to keep us breathing, keep us alive. And so when it's confronted with something like the Bufo near-death experience, it can freak out. Because, you know, we kind of refer to the blast-off as a forced surrender. Whether you wanna go or not, if you consume enough Bufo, it's gonna come grab you by the crown, rip you right out of your body and take you to the other side, whether you wanted to go or not, right? So if, you know, when Bufo comes in, if the ego freaks out and then there's so much resistance, by the time you come back into your body and the spirit matches with the ego again, it can feel very kind of chaotic, destabilizing. The ego was shattered, and it's trying to put itself back together. But I think kind of what we've seen with working with it in these more therapeutic ranges is you're just giving the ego enough intensity to confront that it can trust, right? It's not overwhelming. It still might be a little tug and pull as it gets used to this type of energy, but it's not so overwhelming that it freaks out, right? So then, you know, the ego learns to trust the medicine, to trust the energy, to trust the experience. And as it can get comfortable there, then you can slowly dial up the intensity on that experience to the ego's comfort until you're ready for that full release. Yeah. And in the ego learning to trust the medicine and surrender to the medic- you know, to the bufo experience without it being a forced surrender, you know, uh, you know, some of it is about, like we tell clients, some of it about, is about trusting, you know, your facilitator. Some of it, of course, is about trusting the medicine, but it also teaches them to trust theirself- Mm-hmm which is huge in not just navigating a bufo experience, but in navigating anything in life- Yeah is trusting yourself. How's it feeling for you on the facilitator side of things in the ceremony space? Whereas, you know, before blastoffs can get pretty wild, it requires a lot from the facilitator. Yeah. No, I mean, of, it's... You know, some people can have peaceful blastoffs, but a lot of times people, you know, will have extreme experiences to a blastoff because, you know, the ego's not prepared for that essentially. And so it's still nerve-wracking, like even your nerves being, you know, calmed down and us shifting how we work with it. You know, like things were starting to feel better, but I knew, you know, there was still confidence in, you know, working with this, you know, this new approach. It just, you know, required gaining confidence. But the other aspect that was interesting is because like people do have, you know, very intense experiences to blastoffs, you know, where it's, it's obvious that they're having a very intense experience. So in the lighter dosages, because it was somewhat nerve-wracking to shift working with it, people wouldn't have as many- have as much visibly intense experiences where they're rolling around on the ground, screaming, crying, grabbing the ground, like, you know, super intense experiences because, you know, to a viewer, the experiences weren't intense. I was worried that they weren't getting enough out of it. I wasn't sure. Like, again, we were still gaining our confidence. But, you know, then when you would talk to them afterwards and you would hear how much they did actually get out of it without it being You know, extremely intense and discombobulating, um, that was, you know, where our confidence grew a little bit more. Because even though to the facilitator they're not having as an intensive an experience as they would with the blastoff, so you're worried that they're, you know, not getting enough or, you know, what they came here for. But then when you would hear how much they would get out of it afterwards, again, in a way that they could actually change their life, you know, it c- it felt like, "Okay, we're onto something here." And it, it seemed like bufo would just be very direct with them, too. You know? Whereas some of the psychedelics it k- can kind of be You can kind of get lost in the, the cryptics of the visions and whatnot, and, and it can be d- difficult to integrate. And even though you're always available for integration, it seemed like people were kind of starting to need you less and less because the lessons were just very understandable to them and, and how to apply them. Yeah. Yeah, no, exactly. Um, yeah, we had found, too, like working with it in lighter dosages, uh, yeah, people were le- less discombobulated afterwards, had an easier time integrating, again, in a way that they could actually change their life. And yeah, we could just sense that we were, you know, onto something and just kind of needed to fine-tune what we were already doing with the medicine. And, you know, through fine-tuning, like, you know, of course we, you know, learned a little bit more. Like, I also, you know, you know, it's very common of course in approaching psychedelic ceremonies with intention. And of course, we told people, you know, that about the before we served the medicine. But I, like, really started having people focus on narrowing that down. Because it's not like you won't get anything out of, you know, a bufo experience without coming to it in a s- with a strong intention. But we also found, in addition to the therapeutic lighter dosages, that we also found that people that really focus on their intention, the medicine typically responds in, you know, in a stronger way if p- if the medicine knows that that person took their time to sit with what they're wanting to communicate with the medicine. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, focusing more on, on the prep, working with lighter dosages, and people's integration experiences being easier through doing all that, you know, not only did we know we were onto something, it was starting to feel, you know, comfortable and like, "Okay, we've got things figured out," you know, for the most part. Mm-hmm. You know, even from my own perspective is, you know, when you start working with it more therapeutically is when I felt safe to come and start building a relationship with bufo. And then, you know, a-after working with Bufo for the last five years, like, that's when Bufo really became my ally, right? It, it helped me understand... It, it really helped me understand things in my own psyche that had puzzled me for ages. You know, certain things that I dealt with and was trying to get past and whatnot, and it just made things make sense. Didn't mean I s- didn't still have to work on it with the information that I had. And even in our own relationship, I feel like it really just pulled us closer, you know, to, to... Not, not just... It, it just gave a depth of understanding of what r-real connection is, what real love is, and, uh, I'm not... I, I mean, I'm sure we coulda got there without Bufo, but, but I feel like it really shined a light on it. Yeah. And I mean, that was another thing that was great about shifting how we worked with it, just that it allowed you to actually develop a true relationship with it in a way that was, you know, comfortable for you. Um, and yeah, it's, you know, been cool to see your relationship with the medicine blossom and, you know, allow it to speak, speak to you and, and choosing to trust it. Wow. So wow, what a wild journey. So that's been the last five years. What's life? What's now? What's... I mean, you know, I mean, me and you are medicine people, so life is always, you know, finding our own rhythm of just enjoying. Like, I mean, that's the other, uh, amazing thing about bufo. Like, you know, of course, like, even people that, like, sometimes people too that sit with, like, large dosages or blast-offs, like, they kinda get caught up in, you know, what's beyond this experience. But, you know, bufo also puts you in touch of, you know, what the human experience is and how much of a gift it is. So, you know, of course, our life is still, you know, teaching and serving kambo and bufo, but it's also tied us into just a deeper appreciation for the simple things and just living what the human experience is. Just enjoying making good food, hanging out in our yard, watching it snow, making a cup of hot cocoa, all the things. It means to be human. Exactly. And just really, you know, outside of teaching and serving medicine, just enjoying the human experience for everything that it is, even the, down to the most simple things. Yeah. Well, I think that's a good place to call it. All right, y'all. Thanks for listening. Y'all have a good one.