Beyond the Ceremony is a podcast about what happens before, during, and long after the ceremony ends.
Hosted by Jason and Kelly Fellows of Tribal Detox, each episode explores the intersection of Kambo, Bufo, psychedelics, spirituality, personal growth, and the science of healing. Through honest conversations, interviews, and years of firsthand experience, we dive into the questions that don't always have simple answers.
You'll hear discussions on consciousness, trauma, integration, plant and amphibian medicines, nervous system health, ancient traditions, modern research, and what it means to live a more authentic life.
Whether you're completely new to this world or have spent years walking the path, Beyond the Ceremony offers thoughtful conversations grounded in curiosity, humility, and real-world experience.
In this episode of Beyond the Ceremony, Jason sits down with Emily Johnson of Loving Kambo at the Grunt Style Foundation’s Integration Event outside Troy, Missouri.
Before discovering Kambo, Emily had spent most of her life navigating chronic illness, severe endometriosis, persistent pain, medical trauma, and repeated surgeries. She underwent 15 surgeries for endometriosis before turning 18 and eventually found herself taking 12 prescription medications each day.
After reaching the end of her rope with the conventional options being offered to her, Emily decided to try something completely outside her comfort zone. Her first Kambo session became the beginning of a much larger personal transformation.
Emily shares what it was like to feel the mental “static” begin to clear, how she worked with her healthcare providers and other tools to change her relationship with pain and medication, and how she eventually went from feeling physically broken to climbing mountains in Colorado.
Today, Emily and her husband, Michael, are trained Kambo practitioners serving their communities through their company, Loving Kambo. Emily is also stepping into education and speaking, sharing what she has learned with others who may feel as if they have exhausted every available option.
This conversation is not about claiming that one medicine can fix everyone. It is about personal agency, informed choices, and having the courage to explore a different path when the path you are on is no longer working.
In this episode, we discuss:
Developing severe endometriosis as a child
Undergoing 15 surgeries before the age of 18
The medical trauma Emily experienced during multiple procedures
Living with autoimmune illness and chronic pain
Taking 12 prescription medications each day
What led Emily to try Kambo for the first time
The unexpected shift she noticed the following morning
Becoming more comfortable with discomfort
Finding new ways to work with pain and inflammation
Going from limited physical capacity to climbing Colorado mountains
Emily’s journey from client to Kambo practitioner
Supporting veterans through the Grunt Style Integration Event
Watching former participants return as practitioners
Imposter syndrome and learning to trust your own experience
The importance of informed consent and responsible medical support
Exploring alternative options without presenting them as universal cures
Loving Kambo currently serves Southeast Kansas, the Tulsa area and surrounding Oklahoma communities, and North Texas.
Important disclaimer
This episode shares Emily’s personal experience and is provided for educational purposes only. It should not be interpreted as medical advice or as a recommendation to stop taking prescription medication. Never discontinue or reduce medication without guidance from a qualified healthcare professional. Kambo carries significant risks and is not appropriate for everyone. Proper screening, informed consent, and qualified facilitation are essential.
Subscribe so you don't miss future conversations as we explore plant medicines, integration, spirituality, science, psychology, and everything that happens beyond the ceremony.
This episode of Beyond the Ceremony is brought to you by Tribal Detox. At Tribal Detox, we don't just teach people how to serve kambo. We teach them how to hold space professionally, ethically, and safely. There are a lot of places teaching medicine work now. What makes Tribal Detox different is that we've never tried to build a guru culture around this work. We believe this medicine deserves deep respect, guided by spirit, but grounded in safety, science, humility, and real-world experience. Our trainings are immersive. You're not just sitting in a classroom memorizing protocols. You're stepping into a community of practitioners from all walks of life who genuinely care about integrity in this space, from contraindications and safety protocols to understanding the peptides found within kambo and learning how to properly support people physically, mentally, and emotionally through the experience. This is more than a school. It's an experience that stays with people long after the training ends. If you felt called toward this work or you're looking for a professional training rooted in both respect for tradition and modern safety standards, you can learn more at tribaldetox.com. Now let's get back to the episode. Emily, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. So today we have met at the Grunt Style Integration event just outside of Troy, Missouri, and you're actually giving a talk tomorrow on ancient medicine for modern healing. Yes, I am. Super exciting. So excited. So, you know, these things all kind of start off the same way. You're here giving a talk on medicine, and I want to know the events that happened in your life that led you to the path of medicine. Okay. Where to begin? And you can start as far back as you need to. Well, I guess, I guess about five years ago is the place to start. That's about when I saw your f- the first post I saw from you about one of your Kambo schools, which I totally didn't understand. I thought it was some hippie weekend in the woods. And I signed up for your email and then put it on the back burner. And then fast-forward a couple years later, and medically, I was at the end of my rope. How so? 12 different medications I took every day. Was facing another medicine, another surgery, and I was just done with what the medical system was telling me. I didn't- What, what, what was going on with you that you were on 12 different medications? Well, um, I've had back surgery, neck surgery, autoimmune illness, reproductive endometriosis. I've also had a trauma with almost every single surgery I've ever had. And what, what are the surgeries that you've had? Or at least up until this point. Up until this point, I had 15 surgeries for endometriosis before I was 18 years old. Oh my God. I was in two drug trials while I was in high school for- Okay, okay, let's... There you go. 15 different surgeries. What, what, what were you experiencing? I had horrible endometriosis. Can you explain that a little bit for those that don't, aren't familiar with it? Uh, endometriosis is... Well, I now know it's an autoimmune illnesses, illness, but it affects your reproductive system. It can cause infertility, pain. Um, I started having issues before I ever had a period, so I didn't know as a child what was wrong with me. They checked my kidneys and all sorts of things, and at 12 years old, they did an exploratory surgery to find out that I had one of the worst cases of endometriosis in a young child they'd ever seen. Wow. So that began my adventures with- And w- was there, was there any understanding of what had caused it- No or what was the culprit? At the time, no. I now believe through, um, healing work that there was sexual trauma. Mm-hmm. And so that's been something to unpack, but at the time, you know, being a child and sick and- Sexual trauma manifested into physical illness. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you h- you've had 15 surgeries, and is that what the medications were for the recovery of the surgeries or post-op? The, uh- Well, the sur-- The, yeah, I've taken hormones, anti-inflammatories, pain medications, allergy medicines. It was, bladder medications. There were so many different things. And what, what was the reason for so many surgeries? W- like, what, what was not being accomplished? About every six months, I would have to go in, and they would have to scrape all the endometriosis out. Ah, I see. It was just so bad. So by the time I was 14 or 15 years old, they told me I would probably never have children, that if I did, I'd have to do IVF. They put me through menopause before I was 16 chemically. Um, they tried all kinds of strange drugs because they didn't know what to do with me. I was so young. They had never seen anybody that young with that severe of a case. And so that started very at an early age, going to a doctor and them saying, "Here's a pill. Fix this." Mm-hmm. And through back surgeries, through neck surgeries, through all the different surgeries. Did you ever have anything removed? Um, I've had appendicitis twice. The second time they took my appendix. Wow. Had my gallbladder removed. That surgery did not go well. Any, any, um, like uterine operations or- I've had a full hysterectomy. Everything's gone, and that actually, that was one of the best things that I ever did- Really? -for my reproductive system. Really? Mm-hmm. Wow. It was the first time in my life I wasn't miserable. Wow. So how old are you now? 48. So y- all, all these Surgeries b-before you're even an adult, how, how was that going into adulthood? Like, were, were there still just tons of medical complications or- Yes. Yes. I feel like my entire life, there's always been a complication with anything I've done medically. When I had my hysterectomy, they knocked out my front teeth. When I had my first bladder surgery, they nicked my femoral artery. When I had my neck surgery, they broke my collarbone. So every surgery I've had, there's been an additional trauma to the point where I don't trust the medical teams. It's- Almost like God telling you to stay out of the doctor's office. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So, so I was at a point where I was gonna have another medication and another surgery for my bladder, and I just wasn't gonna accept that as an answer, and I saw a friend had become a practitioner, and although I dil- really didn't understand what Kambo was or what she was doing at the time, that testimony was so amazing that I thought, "I will try." What, what, what about it drew you to it? Like, what piqued your... I mean, you understood that there's this school kinda training this weird thing. Yeah, but I didn't understand that. But what was it that piqued your in- your interest that it, it could be beneficial for you? Well, it was her story. Mm-hmm. It was the fact that she had had a condition and got off all medication and felt like such a different person. That was very appealing to me, and so I scheduled a session, and my first session itself was interesting. Like, it wasn't as dramatic as I thought it would be because, of course, they say, "Don't look it up online. Ask questions before." And I looked up all the scary stuff. It didn't matter to me at that point. I was so desperate. If I was gonna be face down in the jungle to feel better, that's where I was. That, that's something that I've always, I've always... why I have such admiration for people that come into the Kambo space because they've been on YouTube. They've watched the over-exaggerated videos, you know, which is a lot of fear-based just for clicks and likes and things like that. But even through all of that, they still have the courage to show up, really un- to the unknown, that, that it could be something horrible, but still something is pulling them to that experience. Yes, absolutely. That was very unknown in our area, in our hometown, that type of modality or therapy. And you come from small town Texas. Yeah, small town Texas. I didn't even know what the word modality meant when I first started sitting with Kambo. So your, your, your, your interest gets piqued by your friend- Yes that's a practitioner, and you decide to sit. Yes. Tell us about it. First sit was... Well, number one, I didn't even tell my husband until the night before, 'cause I thought, "He's not gonna go for this." Uh-huh. And he was so sick of all the medical stuff and hard stuff that I've been through. He said, "If you need to lick a frog to feel, feel better, go for it." So my first session itself was, um, it wasn't what you see online. It was... It felt interesting. I didn't have a purge, but the next morning is when the shift happened for me. When I woke up, it was like my brain functioned the way it was supposed to. It flowed properly, and I was... I didn't know how depressed I was until I didn't feel that weight. Hmm. And that was the first time in my life I'd ever been able to look at myself and feel myself the way that I did to go, "Wow, you've got some work to do." That, that's something I've said is, you know, people that kinda come to these experiences, a lotta times we don't even realize how far we're gone- Yeah until we're back, and then we're like, "Whoa, we were way out there." Yeah. I, I feel like that first day was like the Solomon Page thing. Like, "Emily's back." Yeah. Yeah. So what, what, what did you notice initially? I guess just the static in my head was gone, the noise, that I could calmly look at myself and things in, in a more positive, I don't know, collected manner. Hmm. I didn't feel as scattered or crazy or hormonal or all the things, that Kambo really balanced me in a way that I had never felt before, so I knew that I needed to work with this more. I knew from my first session that I wanted to learn to be a practitioner and serve others, 'cause if I could help one person have that shift, then this is what I wanna do. So you have your first sit and you have this just great experience. You feel like you're starting to come back. But obviously you've, you've been, I mean, you've been through it physically, probably psychologically, so it's not like the road ended there. Oh, no. What was your journey like to continue working with Kambo? I started sitting very regularly every two, three, four weeks. I knew that it was helping with the pain and inflammation in my body, and that I wanted to get off pharmaceuticals. Mm-hmm. Uh, that was very important to me. I never wanted to take pain medicine or muscle relaxers or Gabapentin, you know, all of the things. Were, were you on daily- Yes pain management? Daily pain management for years. For how many years? Well, there was a couple of times I got off, but around the sur- like my neck surgery, two years after my neck surgery. Okay. Yeah, every day. Hydrocodone, muscle relaxers, uh, every couple months steroids, and high doses of steroids. Yeah. Yeah, which can wreak havoc. Yes. Which can wreak havoc. So you're, you're starting to sit with Campbell often. Mm-hmm. Right? Now, are you kind of making a plan to start stepping off some of these medications, or how did this... Did, did you eventually come off these medications? I actually did. Um, I left Campbell School on no medicine. So five months it took me to get off 12 prescriptions. I take zero pharmaceuticals now. Wow. And I took four pills for allergies every day of my life for 40 years. Five months to come off 12 prescriptions that according to- The doctors I have to have. Yeah. I could go to a doctor anywhere right now and get pain medicine, muscle relaxers. They'd look at my x-rays and my MRIs and go, "Oh, yeah, you've got pain. Here you go." You're perfect. Yeah. You're a level 10. Yeah. And I don't have to have that. I don't need that. I s- you know, I still have the same things with my spine and my body that I had, but I know how to handle it differently. I have found better tools to help me, and it's changed my entire world. You know, 'cause that's the thing, when people get on psych meds and they get on pain meds, they, especially for chronic pain- Mm-hmm due to surgeries and things like that, they don't typically come off. You know, I, we, uh, Kelly and I got a call from a friend whose son had been on... He had a back surgery, and they had him on four different opiates to manage that pain, and this had been for years, and he walked into the doctor's office one day and says, "I can't p- I can't fill your prescription." And he was on four high-potent opioids. You know, I could tell when the friend was texting us like, "Hey, you know, what can we do to help him out?" And it was like, "You don't understand. Like, he's, he's on heroin multiplied by four." It's, it's going to... And to just remove him, not step him down, but just like, "We're not filling that prescription anymore," people often end up on the streets- Yeah looking. You know, people, churchgoing people that never in a w- in a million years would th- think they would find themselves in that position, and they're looking for a dealer on the corner. Mm-hmm. You know? So the fact that you came off 12 different prescriptions is monumental. Like, it's not... People are going to listen to this and be like, "She's different. That's, that's not the norm." What would you say to those people? It took stepping out of the box and trying something different, trying something that would make you uncomfortable. That's the big thing. I have gotten very good at being comfortable with the uncomfortable to heal, to help my body find progress, balance, to move myself in a different way because there are, there is a time and place for pharmaceuticals, but that was not the answer for me. That was, I was a zombie. It was maintaining. It was maintaining, and I had no quality of life. Um, I, I'm so much happier now without the pharmaceuticals. Mm-hmm. And it's not, you know, look, ev- everybody has a reason for being on their, their medication, but there comes a time when people are ready to get off of that medication, and unfortunately, there's not, th- there's so much money in it. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of support from the medical system. Like, do you ever have doctors say, "Hey, we're just gonna take this for three months, and then we're gonna start working on a taper"? Every... Yeah, no. Yeah. Th- there's no ti- It's like, m- "When are you coming back in-" Yeah to fill your prescription?" It's a cycle. Every single time I've been to the doctor for years, if, if I'm not on a antidepressant, they're like, "Oh, you're stressed. Here's... You really need to be on an antidepressant." It's crazy. Yeah. And, and it's with such little informed consent. Like, a lot of people don't realize that antidepressants and benzos are some of the most addictive drugs on the planet. Like, once you stop taking those, once you've been on a regimen of those for four weeks or longer- Mm-hmm it is very difficult, and even not advisory, to just stop taking them. Like, the withdrawals, both physical and psychological, can be significant. You know, and the fact that you can walk into a doctor's office, have a conversation, maybe you're not smiling, and they're like, "You look depressed. Let me hand you a very addictive drug that you'll be on for the rest of your life." Yeah, I'm grateful to not be on pharmaceuticals. When I got home from Campo School, I took all of those bottles and poured them, and there was over half a gallon bag of pills. And I, and going, when you're in that, I didn't see how much that was or- Mm-hmm that problem. But once I got away from it, and looking at that, and what I was putting into my body that wasn't serving me, that wasn't helping me heal, it was just numbing everything. Do you feel like you almost kind of found this person that was buried underneath all of that? Yes. I'm still finding her. Yeah. Yeah. You went from You went from, you know, when I met you, you were just kind of beginning your health journey. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and I could tell. It, it'd been a long time since you were probably really physically capable. And two years after I met you, we were clining, climbing mountains, 14ers in Colorado. 12-ater all the way. Did you ever think- No that was possible for you? No. I never dreamed I would be able to climb mountains. Like, what, what did it feel like when you were standing on the side of that mountain realizing how far that you've come? That was the most powerful and proud I think I've ever been of myself. Like, I found myself out there. Mm-hmm. And now you're facilitating this medicine. Yes. What's that journey been like? It- You've seen what it has done for you. What have you seen it do for others? Oh, wow. It's, it's been magic every step of the way. It's one of the most wonderful, hard things I've ever done because you're walking through, you're walking through things with your people, with your clients. They're... You're sharing your stories and learning them to help guide them, help keep them safe, and it's been one of the most powerful, meaningful things I've ever done. And have you been seeing a lot of transformational changes in people? Absolutely. Well, just for instance, being here at the integration event at Grunt Style, this is my third year to be here. Year one, I came in support. Year two, we had people that came as participants that came back year two as tribal detox practitioners. Mm-hmm. So watching people have an experience and it change their life is so beautiful. Yeah. Incredible. It's incredible. I love this. And you've really, you know, the Grunt Style Foundation's a veterans event, and you've really kind of found yourself serving in the veterans community. Absolutely. As soon as we left year, uh, year two, we had one of our fellow participants fly out to stay the weekend with us, and when he came, he left... He, he came broken. He was on the edge, and he spent a weekend with us, and Michael served him a three-by-three, and he left a whole new man, and he is here now as a practitioner, and that's so beautiful. Yeah. It's really... It's been really interesting at this Grunt Style event, you know, because it's the first time. It's, it's like, uh... I was trying to explain it to someone the other day, and it's basically where a group of, you know, hippies, veterans, and Native Americans all come together for this in a place that, that they don't group to. Like, these are three groups of people- That normally wouldn't- that normally don't intermingle, you know? And they're all here in this one place for this one supporting cause of, uh, of alternative medicine to veterans, just to give an alternative to just the... You know, usually when people get out of the service, the only help they're really given, you know, is just an option for medication and then kind of sent on their way, which can lead to a lot of devastating outcomes when it's done with, you know, ill-informed consent. So to see guys come here broken, looking for answers- And then by year three, they're providing the answers to other people that they found that helped them out, and their families so much. Like it's- It's a miracle. It, it's emotional. Yeah. Like, it is really incredible. And so you've experienced the medicine, you serve the medicine, and now you're going to be teaching- Yes, I'm super- about the medicine excited about that. Yeah. How does that feel to really come full circle? Well, it, it feels great. I, I... At times I still have imposter syndrome. Like me, like I, I don't know if I'm the one to do this. There's more people qualified. And then just, like, on our way to integration, I had another practitioner offer to let us come and stay with them, and she said, "Don't you doubt yourself." Yeah. She said, "You're the reason I'm here." Yeah. So all the weird ways that I'm a cheerleader are beneficial, and this changed my life, and I just wanna share it to help others, whether that means serving or teaching or just being a cheerleader to the other practitioners. I'm here for all of this. Mm-hmm. So we're gonna wrap it up, but, you know, for someone that might be finding themselves in a similar situation, they just feel broken. They, they're... Every time they go to look for help, they're just handed an option for more surgeries or for more medication, and they just can't see a way out of their, their circumstance. And I'm not saying what we do is going to help everybody, but when somebody is at their bottom facing these challenges, and from you being in a place that was similar, what would be your message to them? Look around at options. Try something different. Even if Kambo is not the right thing for you, there are many other alternative options that are natural that can bring you peace in a way that you didn't know Yeah. That, and that's, you know, and that's the thing. That's kinda what the Grunt Style Integration event is also, 'cause it is a collection of different alternative modalities from Kambo to Bufo to ayahuasca to nutrition amino acid therapy to creative writing to Japanese incense to, to breathwork, to all these different things that we're discovering that can have very bene- beneficial effects as an alternative to just psych meds. This is one of my favorite events because of that, because there's such a wide array of alternative options that some people don't know exist. And if you don't know, you don't even know where to look. So I try everywhere I go to share about this event, about what we do, about what the other practitioners do, because I think the world needs more of this. People need more of this. Yeah. The world needs more of this. Yes. Excellent. Emily, so where, where are you working at? Where can people find you, or how can you be found on- You can find me at, uh, lovingkambo.net or on Facebook at Loving Kambo or Instagram, Loving Kambo or Emily Johnson. Okay. And we'll put it in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here. I can't wait to listen to your talk tomorrow. Thank you for having me. Until next time.
