Episode 12: Finding Purpose When Life Changes Your Plans | Julie Vogel

What happens when the life you imagined isn’t the life you get?

In this episode of Tribal Detox Podcast — Beyond the Ceremony, Jason sits down with close friend, Kambo practitioner, and Tribal Detox instructor Julie Vogel, founder of Kambo Coyote in Austin, Texas.

Recorded at the Grunt Style Integration event in Missouri, this conversation follows Julie’s unconventional path through teaching, backpacking, wilderness survival, infertility, and eventually amphibian medicine.

Julie opens up about the physical and emotional toll of three unsuccessful rounds of IVF, grieving the possibility of motherhood, and finding herself asking what to do with her life next. Choosing to say yes to new experiences led her to a powerful first Bufo ceremony and, later, Kambo.

She also shares the uncomfortable lesson that pushed her to seek proper practitioner training: loving a medicine doesn’t mean you know how to work with it safely.

With plenty of humor and the ease of a longtime friendship, Jason and Julie explore community, control, service, and finding purpose when your original plans fall apart.

In this episode:

• Growing up bullied and becoming an advocate for the underdog.
• Backpacking through Southeast Asia and volunteering in Thailand after the tsunami.
• Waldorf teaching, Naropa University, and finding different ways to learn.
• Wilderness survival training and learning to slow down in nature.
• Infertility, unsuccessful IVF, and grieving an imagined future.
• Julie’s first Bufo experience and her changing relationship with death and control.
• Discovering Kambo and recognizing the need for formal training.
• Building Kambo Coyote and creating the Coyote’s Den.
• Becoming a Tribal Detox instructor and helping students find their own approach.
• Meeting skeptical clients with practical conversation and compassion.
• Offering possibilities without promising outcomes.

Connect with Julie Vogel

Kambo Coyote — Austin, Texas
Website: https://kambocoyote.com
Email: julie@kambocoyote.com
Instagram: @kambocoyote

Subscribe so you don't miss future conversations as we explore plant medicines, integration, spirituality, science, psychology, and everything that happens beyond the ceremony.

Transcript

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Julie Vogel, welcome to the show. Thank you. I'm happy to be here. This is a special podcast for me because Julie is literally one of my most favorite people in the entire world. We've done a lot together. We've been through some shit together, and, uh, we've just built an incredible friendship, and I'm really happy to have you here on the podcast. And we're meeting in Missouri at the Grunt Style Integration event to where you're giving a talk tomorrow called Bufo: Beyond the Armor. Excellent. So Julie, these things, you know, start off the same way for the most part, but I want to know the events that happened in your life, and you can go as far back as you want, that eventually led you to the medicine path. All right. So, you know, the way I think about things, everything that I've learned through my experience in life, I understand that everything actually led me here. Mm. Like every single moment of my life. So, you know, we're not gonna go through every single moment, but, you know, just to touch a little bit on my background, I come from a pretty kind of diverse family background. We have, um, foreign military. We have very spiritual people. Um, both my parents came from a lot of poverty, so they really had to really work for everything that they had, and that was a really good lesson, even though sometimes it was hard growing up. And, um, you know, I had a really great childhood in a lot of ways, but I was also severely bullied for a lot of my life and- Like in, like in school or? Yeah, in school. Um, it was pretty, it was pretty bad. I didn't have many friends when I was, like, in elementary school, and then it kind of continued, but I had to, you know, find my tribe, testing different people, different groups, feeling what resonated or not. And even though during those times it seemed like, "Why me? Why is this happening to me?" However, in retrospect, I'm so grateful for all those really opportunities because it shifted the way that I see the world. It shifted the way that I react to other people. And so I sort of have this inner, like, desire to fight for the underdog, and it's really helped me in everything that I've done in my life. I never followed the traditional path of you go to high school, you go to college directly, you get a degree, maybe you live in a dorm, then you have a career, you get married. I kind of did everything a little bit sideways. Mm-hmm. And for a long time I thought something was wrong with me, like, "Why can't I do this like everybody else?" But I realize it's because we're not all the same. We all have to find it in our own way. And I did a lot of different things in my life. Um, I have been a part of, like, a woman's organization for over twenty-five years, which seems crazy to say. Um- What kind, what kind of woman's organization? It's an international woman's organization that hosts weekend events, and it's basically women having a place where they can be supported by just other women. And kind of starting at the surface level and through the weekend process, it's a descent to kind of shedding everything, all the masks that we wear, all the armor that we wear- Mm so to speak, so that we can be, those women can be in a very vulnerable state. In a sense, women allowing themselves to be seen by other women. Yes, because, you know, culturally, I think a lot of women listening can resonate to the idea that we sort of, there's this underlying competition or that we can't trust each other, and it's a really beautiful process to see someone that has had no experience of that be in such a vulnerable state and see that this can happen. We can... There are these communities, and there are places for us. And then before the weekend's over, building them back up so that they're in a place where they can go out in the world and, and try on this new version of themselves, or possibly an old version of themself, the true version of themself. So I went through that weekend, you know, about twenty-five years ago, and I continue to volunteer for them, and it's, uh, how I've met a lot of my friends that I have now in my life. And, um, yeah, so that, that's been a big part of my life. And, um, tradi-- you know, as far as career goes, I was a school teacher for the most of my life. Um- What age group? You know, I worked everywhere from pre-K to middle school, so up through eighth grade. Did you have a, did you have a favorite age group? You know, I had a couple favorite things about the different age groups. I really, there's a such a sweetness to like the first and second graders- Mm because they just love you and they wanna make you little cards- and, you know, they say the funniest things. Like one, after the summer I came back and I had a few gray hairs, and in fashion it was like tinselings, what they call it, these little strips you put in your hair that sparkle. And one of my second graders said, "Oh, Mrs. Vogel, did you get tinseling in your hair?" And I said, "It's nature's tinseling. You'll get it one day maybe." But I really loved working with the middle schoolers because it's an age where they're real- really figuring out who they are, and they're trying out these different personalities, figuring out how to be in the world kind of on their own in their minds. So I really love that age group because the conversations are just next level. Mm-hmm. And understanding, it, it was really great for me because it, in some ways it helped me reframe my trauma from that age in my life, and I think that was a big gift because I knew how it felt to be othered, that I wouldn't allow my students to be that way. Mm-hmm. And I wouldn't allow them to be that way with each other. So it was like taking all my skills from the women's organization and different things that I'd done that I could really work with those kids in a different way. And so I guess if I had to pick, that might be my favorite. Mm-hmm. The most awkward, but the most fun for me. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very cool. Yeah. So and then where do we go from there? We're teaching. Yeah, and so I think in about 2016, um, I, I ha- I'm a, I'm a native Texan, and I've lived in Texas most of my life, but in my 20s and early 30s I did a lot of, um, backpacking to other countries. I was really interested in other cultures, seeing how, you know, how many lives we can live out there, and it really opened up, um, a lot of perspectives for me. And like- What kind of, so you're backpacking, so dirt bag traveling. Yeah. Yeah. And so how, how was that experience? It was, uh, it was life-changing, and I always, whenever I talk about it I think about how grateful I was that when I did it, it was before cell phones. Yeah. So it's literally like a girlfriend and I would decide, "Hey, let's go, I don't know, check out Southeast Asia," and pack a backpack for three or four months and just kind of live, uh, you know, in the moment. Just go where the wind blows you. Yeah, I mean, back then they had the Lonely Planet books, and you'd flip through it and see where you could find an internet cafe to send your mom an email that says, "Hey, I'm alive." Yeah. Yeah, and actually ended up, we had a plan for Southeast Asia specifically right before the tsunami happened. Right. That was early 2000s, right? Yeah, I wanna say 2004. Yeah. I'm not the greatest- I think you're right. I think it was 2004. Yeah. And so we had already had the trip planned, and, you know, everyone was like, "Well, are you still gonna go?" And we said, "Yeah, we're gonna go, and we're gonna see if we can volunteer while we're out there." But it was really hard to find an organization. And towards the end of our trip, we ended up in Thailand, and we just heard some other travelers saying, "Hey, there's this little island called Phi Phi Island, and they're in desperate need of help." So we thought, "Yeah, that's what we're, we're here for it." And so we had no idea what to expect. Rolled up on the boat, no money, no food. We're just thinking, "Yeah, we'll find what we need there." And there was literally buildings in the water. It was quite a scene to arrive on. Wow! Um, and they just had a few, you know, some local people that still lived there that had fixed up enough for them to maintain. Um- It's not like FEMA's coming to the rescue. FEMA was not coming to the rescue. It's, it's very close to a much more popular island called Phuket- Mm-hmm that's kind of like a very touristy place. So I think they received a lot of government support for financial reasons, and then Phi Phi Island was a little bit, uh, left, left in the dust. Mm-hmm. So yeah, we found this group of travelers that had kind of organized a little station, and we just got different jobs every day. We, we met up with these guys that were literally living in a tree. They were also dirt bag travelers, as you say. There was a little platform, and there was one little hostel room that they had got in order, so we stayed there, and we just had everyone that wanted to shower or rest in there come in there. And we did all kinds of jobs. Like, um, we, we went to a smaller island called Ko Phi Phi, which is actually where the movie The Beach was filmed. Oh, really? Leonardo. Yeah, Leonardo. Yeah. And, um, you know, I guess normally that place is full of tourist boats and people exploring, but it was literally a once in a lifetime opportunity because these two local guys took us on dugout canoes. There were six of us. We went out there, and our job was to remove coral from the beach and put it back in the ocean, and we got stuck out there. A huge storm blew through, and we were stuck out there for hours. We literally hid in a cave, and it was like m- being on that movie, The Beach. Mm-hmm. And it was such a beautiful experience, and then the guys went out and fished and got some seaweed, fed us really good. And, um, yeah, it was intense, though. We, you know, were given notifications on what to do if we identified body parts and things like that. But, um, it was, it was al- also a life-changing experience. So it's kind of a stage in your life where you're really Getting an opportunity to be of service to something greater than yourself beyond teaching. Yeah, absolutely. I, I never really thought about it that way because it didn't seem like a choice. It just seemed like this is why I'm here and what we're supposed to be doing. Mm-hmm. But yeah. So where does life go from there? So then I come back. Um, at the time I was, um, managing and bartending at this bar in Austin, and that's kinda what I would do is just work a lot, save some money, take off somewhere else and come back. Um, and at some point I decided, "Look, I gotta get a degree." I'm not advocating for that right now, but at the time that's what I felt like I had to do. So I decided I was gonna move to Colorado, get a degree. Um, oh yeah, and prior to that I had been accepted into a teacher training for Waldorf schools, but really to be accepted you were supposed to have a degree, and they said, well, because of my life experience, you know, we're gonna accept you in the program. So I did that for two years in Oregon. Explain what a Waldorf school is. So a Waldorf school, it's a private school system. Um, you know, I'm sure a lot of people have heard of Montessori- Mm-hmm and it's just a different style of education. It's very holistic. They use a lot of natural materials. There's a lot of, um... The idea is that there's a spiritual background- Mm-hmm to everything, and- Not necessarily dogmatic. It, well, like- Or- Like everything, there's all different flavors. Yeah. Right? So there's gonna be some that are, that can feel dogmatic depending who you are, and there's some that, you know, have kind of adjusted and grown with the times. Gotcha. But it's interesting that you ask that question because with the way that I raise, I was raised and the way that I am, dogma is really hard for me. Mm-hmm. I don't, I don't like the idea of being a fundamentalist about anything because I think that nothing is for everyone other than breathing. Mm-hmm. And even in that, like, there's different ways to do it. So yeah, I did that training. I think a lot of people think of it as like hippie school. Yeah. But there's a, there's really a lot of beauty to it, and it really addresses the individual learning styles for each child. I've heard amazing things about it. Yeah. And it's beautiful because it's, you know, it's... When we think of public schools, it's like there's a strict curriculum, all these things that have to be checked off the box. But in the Waldorf school, I loved how there was so much flexibility to meeting the needs of different students in this classroom at the same time for- Because it's kinda like a life immersion experience. Yeah. Right? And it's not just do the math and do, you know, do the English class or whatever. Yeah. There's a lot more to it. Yeah. It's very, um, like I said, it's very holistic and the parents that are involved are really committing to this lifestyle. Mm-hmm. Because ideally, it doesn't happen as much anymore, but ideally, um, if you're a grades teacher you pick up a first grade class and you actually move with them through eighth grade. Oh, wow. So they become family. Wow. I ended up always kind of taking over a class if someone was retiring or on paternity leave, maternity leave. Um, but yeah, that's kind of the ideal way, which is a huge commitment. And it's not like being a second grade math teacher where every year you're teaching second grade math. You're teaching the curriculum for eight years. Mm-hmm. And then by the time the next class comes around, it's a whole different decade It's a whole different type of people. So, you know, having to relearn how do I m- meet these students, these families with the same information, but where they are right now? Mm-hmm. So interesting. So you did this for two years. I did this for several years. For several years. Now, were you continuing to work on your degree while you were doing this? Oh, well, before I actually started working as a Waldorf teacher, I'd done my training, and then I went to apply, and they said, "Oh, you need a degree." Mm-hmm. And I thought, "Here we go again, Julie. Doing things backwards-" Mm-hmm getting these exceptions that seem fun at the time, but realizing, no, we have to, we have to cover the steps. So I moved to Colorado and just decided, no matter what, I'm not leaving here without a degree. So I actually ended up at Naropa University. Really? I didn't realize that. Yeah. Yeah. We've had several students that have come through that went through Naropa. I've heard great things about it. Yeah. In Boulder, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny because you know me really well, and the people, even like some of our students that have come through that know about Naropa, after they know me a little bit, they think, "You went to Naropa?" I, I, I, I did, I had no idea. Yeah. May- maybe you told me. I forgot, but- I mean, probably, but, you know, I, I've, I went to school. I went to Texas State back in the day, different colleges, but I just never could learn in that environment. Uh-huh. I just... I was never taught how to study or how to learn. It was kind of up to me to figure it out, and so in the desperation of needing that paper or wanting that paper, I found Naropa, and I realized, "If I'm gonna do this, this is the way." And they had a lot of unique, um, ways that they held the classes. For example, I remember a few of the classes when it was time to take a test, it wasn't a written exam like we're used to. They would have a list of questions, and we would know what they were, and they would put them in a fishbowl, like a little bowl, and then everyone would sit in a circle, and if you and I were taking a test, you would sit on a cushion across from me with a bowl, and you would pick a slip of paper from that pile and present me with a question, and it would be somewhat what we're doing right now. I would talk to you about the answer of the question. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, the teacher would determine if that, that was sufficient. So it was a- Interesting it was a really interesting experience because also I was much older than most of the people there. Um, but it was beautiful. I, I love, like, seeing how many ways people can walk this life, you know? Mm-hmm. So it was really great. But, so I finished that, came back, got a job, um, as a Waldorf teacher and was doing that, and I think in about, um, 2016 was when I decided I need something else to do, something... I'm, I'm a very... I used to say I was a busybody until someone told me what that actually means. I thought, "My body's always busy. I'm always-" moving around. How do I sit still?" And they said, "You're not a busybody. That's a gossip." So yeah, just a very active person. I like to have my hands in Many different pots if possible. So I've always been very connected to nature, um, and I found this class. It was like an eight-month survival wilderness training. I thought, "That is what I'm gonna do." So I did it, went by myself, and it was such a powerful experience. And when I was done with the course, one of the instructors asked me if I would be interested in co-teaching. Wow. And I thought, "Are you sure? I just did this." And because I loved the guy so much, I thought, "Yeah, I'll, I'll do this," and I ended up doing that for a handful of years and it was such... It was a game changer. Being able to just slow down, observe nature, understand the relationships between people and nature, um, it really changed my life and I think When I think about what we'll get to later, the medicine work, I think that that was a real pivotal turning point. Being so intimate with nature and being able to perceive the energies of the different plants, the different territories, and connecting in that way, um, really changed my trajectory. We don't, we don't realize how much we don't know about the ecosystem that's just right outside because most people never... You know, Kelly and I was having this conversation the other day, you know, and it's not a knock on anybody that, that lives in the city. People, you know, have to go where they have opportunity. But we were talking about how many people in those environments never touch their bare foot even to the earth. You know, it's like you wake up, you put your shoes on, you go to the office, then you come home, and once you're in your s- in your house, you take your shoes off. Yeah. You know? And if you don't have the luxury of even having a backyard or something like that. So if w- if we don't even have the fundamental experience of putting our feet on the bare earth, think about the entire ecosystems that exist around us, that we have... It's just, you know, when you're able to, to just sit in it, whether it's in a park, whether it's by a creek, in the mountains, where- wherever you have the opportunity to sit in just raw nature, it does s- it has a calming effect on the brain. Mm-hmm. It, it, you feel like, "This is where I'm supposed to be." Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, one of the... You know, we would get students from all walks of life, kind of like combo school. Um, people that were in, like preppers, you know, thinking they're getting ready for the apocalypse. And, you know, I remember this one young woman who had, had a partner that she divorced from, and she had a, a son, I think he was about 11 or 12, and the whole reason she took that class was so that she could take him camping. I mean, so, like all different types of people. And what you were saying is really important about people that live in the cities and don't really have a lot of connection with nature. We used to do this process called a sit spot. And if there's, even if you're in a city, there's some kind of tree- Mm-hmm that's there all the time. And the assignment, so to speak, was to every day For a certain amount of time, go sit and observe this specific tree, this specific plant, something that's stays in the same place, and just notice it. And it's a process of being present and getting to know the tree, not just by name. Like, "Oh, that's a pecan tree. I can tell because of the layered bark, because the pointed leaves," and so on. It's getting to know the essence, the spirit of this tree, and how it changes in, in this environment with the weather, with whatever it is. It's a meditative practice and, you know, that's how the First People got to know plants is just being with them- Mm-hmm and, and connecting to the energy, not worried about the taxonomical names or scientific names of things. And it's so foreign to us, but you talk, you know, to a Shipibo that's lived in the jungle their entire life, you know, and you ask them, "How did people figure out how to mix certain plants with other certain plants to create these amazing experiences?" And they'll tell you, "The plants." Mm-hmm. "The plants told us." Yeah. You know, the plants talked to them. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So- How do we st- so you, you're looking for signs, 2016. You've, you've gone through the survival school. You've really immersed yourself in nature, you know, or, or, you know, a different understanding or different experience of being in nature. Now, where do we go from here? Yeah, so I was, I was still teaching at the, the school at the time, so I was doing both, um, and loving it. And then, you know, I guess the next big thing that happened, um, I got married in 2015. It was a big surprise. The, um... my husband was not someone that I expected, and I was at a time in my life where I thought, "You know, I've done the same thing so many more, so many times, and it didn't work out," and he was so different from anyone I had ever met or envisioned myself with. And I just had like, you know, when they, when people say, "I had a download or I had a message"- Yeah I don't like to say that term, but it was kind of- Yeah, no, yeah I had an understanding. It was like something said, "This is the thing." Oh. "Whatever it's gonna be, this is what you're supposed to be doing." And he's such a beautiful, sweet person, and has really helped me just see certain sides of myself that maybe I didn't wanna look at or didn't know how to work with. Um, so we got married actually a year, a year from the time we met each other to the date. Wow. Um, and it was pretty funny. He didn't know that we were getting married. We had had a wedding planned, and, uh, I surprised him at the house one night with his best friend. It's like, "Here's the paperwork. We're just gonna do this right now." Oh. It was on his birthday. Let's just get it. Happy birthday. Yeah. His birthday present was one of those baby blue tuxedo shirts- and he was so confused. I said, "No, just put it on." So, um, some people listening to this may be like, "We didn't know that." It was supposed to be a secret, but the secret's out. Cat's out of the bag. Cat's out of the bag. Um, yeah, so we knew that we wanted to have children, and I, I have taken care of infants literally since the time I was 12. I've always been very maternal. All my friends that have had kids, I would go stay with them for the first few weeks. I, I was the person people drop off their kids in the summer, like, "Please take these kids." It was Camp Julie, and it still happens, not as much anymore, but some. So we knew that we wanted to have kids, and when we started that process, and this is a story that I don't share with everyone, so, um, it was not working. So we did, you know, all the tests, went to doctors, and- For my husband, he, you know, he mostly was interested in having children with me. It wasn't necessarily a lifelong mission that he had. And I just never considered that that would be a problem, you know, with the partner that I chose. And I'm a very, a pretty natural person, um, in the sense of what I do with my body. Um, and basically it boiled down to that we would have to do IVF. Mm-hmm. And I was honestly- I, I hear that's harsh. It's, it's really difficult, um, especially for me- Can you explain what that is? Yeah, absolutely. It's in vitro fertilization, and so there's different layers of it. Um, you know, I think a lot of people know the term the turkey baster, where they kind of find a donor and, you know, ins- put that into the woman's egg and so on. There's different levels where sometimes it can be a little bit more natural like that. And depending on if it's a male issue, a female issue, possibly both, the most advanced, at least that I know of, um, version of that is called ICSI, and it's where they actually look at the sperm and they, rather than just taking the sperm and implanting it in the egg and hoping for the best, they actually find one specific sperm that looks like he's doing all right. They take that specific sperm and actually insert it into the egg. They don't let it happen naturally. They insert it. Um, so it's kind of like the most extreme version of that. So we started off just the regular way, and then we ended up going... It was like our third round, which I had decided, you know, three times feel like s- feels like a good college try. I just couldn't put my body through that anymore. And of course, my husband is so sweet, and he was in full support of whatever, you know, whenever I wanted to stop. So we went to Colorado. Um, I think he's the number one fertility specialist in the US, and we went there, and even... I remember him presenting us with the option to just have a donated embryo that was already formed- I remember sitting there thinking about it, and with everything I've- Like, they... How, how does that work? Like, for example, um, if a, a couple or maybe it's different people that maybe women donate their eggs, men donate their sperm. They h- um, see if the embryos will fertilize, and they're fertilized embryos, and some... and people will donate those. So even people that are- And do they, do, do they put the embryo inside of you? Yes. Okay. We did not end up doing that, but yeah. I didn't even know that was a procedure. Yeah, it is. So, like, for example, when... Like, let's say a couple is doing IVF and they have five viable embryos. They do one and it works. They have a child. They do a second, it works. They have a child. And they have these three left that are frozen. Oh. The doctor gives you the options, a few options. Like, "Would you like us to destroy them? Do you wanna donate them to science, or do you wanna donate them to other couples or individuals?" Uh, isn't it... It's, it's... I mean, I It's just very interesting- Yeah because you're taking basically the formation of a child created by two different people and putting it inside your body to give birth. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I had all those... I can see your face, and I had- Yeah. all those facial expressions too, and I was like, "What kind of mad science is this?" And I, I mean, I know some people are just, you know, it's their calling to get pregnant and- Yeah at, at what oc- at what, whatever cost, they can make it happen. You know what I mean? But it's, it is... Yeah. It's, it's a choice, and- Yeah I'm, I'm in the boat. I don't, I'm not here to say what I think is right or wrong for anyone else. I think it's a beautiful gift for people that are really called to do that and want to have a family, want to have that experience of being pregnant. For me, based on my background, my connection with nature, the cycles of nature, and all that, I personally couldn't wrap my head around putting all these resources into taking these things, the sperm, the egg, the whole process, right. It's like being a surrogate. It's like being a surrogate. Yeah, it's being a surrogate. So we even have friends, my brother's good friends, they were doing the IVF process at the same time, and, um, she was kind of at the end of the rope. She couldn't care... Once they implanted the embryos, like, she just couldn't carry it. She would ha- miscarry. So they had a neighbor be a surrogate for their egg, for their fertilized egg. I see. And it was a wild situation because the surrogate got pregnant with that, and then she got pregnant naturally a month later. Oh, wow. So she kind of has twins, but one was carried by the neighbor. That- Yeah so I could, I could see how that would be- So, and that- It- it's a big choice It's a big choice, and it, in my mind, I just felt like, you know, pretty much everything I do is minimum eff- minimum effective dose. Yeah And not taking more than we need. And I thought at that point, there are children up for adoption. Sure Like, I don't need to do all this. And so obviously that was an option. But, you know, it's so funny 'cause when people are going through IVF, and this is, like, a public service announcement for anyone listening, please don't look at the person and say, "Well, you could just adopt" Mm-hmm because it's a very difficult and expensive process that doesn't always- Work out work out. So anyways, we, long story short, we, we did that last round. It didn't work, and I was just devastated. I was devastated. I thought, "What am I gonna do with my life?" Like, I love a tribe, I love community, and I love projects. And I thought, "Well, I mean, children, that's a lifelong project." You know, you've got Halloween, you've got school projects, all these things. And so I really had to sit with myself and figure out how I was gonna continue to respond to this fact that I was not going to be having children with my husband. And on a physiological level, my body was wrecked. I'd put on probably at least 40 pounds because in case anyone out there doesn't know, when you go through IVF, regardless if it's the woman's problem or the man's problem, the woman is injecting herself with a ton of hormones. Mm. Because they wanna make sure that when they do harvest eggs, they get as many, you know, as possible. Um, so my body was totally wrecked. I was absolutely depressed, and I just, I just didn't know where to go. I didn't know- Mm-hmm what was I gonna do with my life. And, um, so let's see how we weave that. Um, so basically my theory in life is that every day that we wake up with breath in our lungs, we have choices. And it's a tricky thing to say everyone has a choice because I understand in certain circumstances there are not many choices to be had. However There are a lot of people that do. And so even with just the attitude, forget about resources. And I had spent so much time being depressed and poor me, and then, you know, you go to Costco and there's a lady with four kids in her cart and she's pregnant. It's like, "What's going on?" We have a ton of friends that are- It's like everybody's getting pregnant around you. Yeah. And it's like, it's kind of like when you buy a white car, all of a sudden you start seeing that car everywhere. You find yourself judging people. It's like, "Well, l- why do they get to have a baby?" You know? Absolutely. You know. And yeah, we have a lot of friends that are in the police department, and one of my closest friends, uh, is retired now, but she was a victim's crisis counselor. And so, you know, being a lot, around a lot of, uh, officers and hearing stories of drug addicts that had this baby and they're out in the woods, and it's like, really? I thought, "What kind of God is out there?" I know. Like, we're a loving family, we're sweet. We have, you know, the means to, to, to do this. And I thought, "Wait a minute. When we observe nature, nature doesn't give a shit." Mm-hmm. It just does, and it balances itself, and it's without any hard feelings. It just finds a way to balance, and it is what it is. And so once I started to remember that, because it's not like it was something I learned, I just had to apply it to my own situation. 'Cause we like, we like to think we're special. Not- Oh, yeah not that we're not, but we are a, a part of something much bigger that, that requires balance. Yeah. I mean, we're a speck of dust on a speck of dust. Yeah. And it's, for me, that's actually very soothing- Mm-hmm to think about. It's like, "Ugh, the pressure's off." Yeah. I'm just, I'm just a piece of dust over here sitting in a cabin in Missouri. I can, I can relax. Exactly. But, you know, and as you know, like, doing all the, the work that we've done, um, it becomes obvious- Mm at some point. Um, but yeah, so I just realized I love life. I freaking love so many things about life. I'm not gonna sit up here in the house and do the poor me thing. I can, but I don't want to. It's not fun. It doesn't feel good. And so I just decided at that time that I was gonna be the yes guy, that any opportunity that came up within reason, I was just gonna say yes and see what happens, see what life has. Because if this isn't happening, there must be something out there. And so that's what I kind of started doing, and, um, I had said yes to some friend groups that I maybe didn't say yes to as much before, and I just thought, "I'm gonna see what they're up to, see what's going on." And, you know, I had worked with what we call medicines since I was a teenager, but in retrospect, it was not in a very ceremonious way. Mm-hmm. It was like, "Let's go eat a bag of mushrooms and go out to the woods and-" Yeah, I mean, you don't, you don't even understand when you're a teenager the spiritual context that exists or, or most don't. Yeah. You know? It's just something that we're gonna eat and go camping and tripping and stare at the leaves and watch the trees breathe and- Yeah you know, that's it. And that... I mean, that was certainly a fun time. But, um, yeah, so I started getting, um, invited to different m- medicine circles, ceremony groups, people who were just doing something different that I hadn't had a lot of experience, um, personally with at the time. And oddly enough, I went to a music event weekend that several of my friends were putting on together. It was not a medicine weekend. There was no medicine involved. It was just medicine music. And, um, I remember we got there a day early. I was helping set up and organize things, and this guy that I'd heard about walked by the counter, and he did, like, a back step, and he just looked at me, and he went to the other room and came back and kind of looked at me funny again, and he set this stuff on the counter in front of me. And my friend is over there going, "Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh, your life's about to change. Oh my gosh, you have no idea." And I thought, "What the heck are you talking about? I don't even know what this stuff is in front of me." And it was bufo. Mm. And I had barely heard about it. I mean, I think I heard the word, but I didn't even know where it came from, what it was. And it was only offered to me, and there were a lot of my very close friends there, so it felt very safe. It was a beautiful setting. And basically, I just... I said yes. I was a yes guy. So I said yes and, um, I remember as the ceremony space was being set up, one of the guys there said, "Whatever you do, do not get on YouTube and start looking up videos." Mm-hmm. I said, "Noted." I did not. And I'm really glad I didn't. Um, and you know, I guess we'll get into this more later, but I didn't know what my dose was. I didn't even know to ask something like that. Um, and it was a blast-off. And it was... Life-changing is, is not the adequate way to say it, but we can only articulate so much. Um- Do you remember the actual experience? I remember parts of it. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, I think with bufo, a lot of people say that it's not necessarily a visionary medicine in the sense of where ayahuasca, there are certain themes that are more common to pop up. Or like a vision quest. Or like a vision- Yeah. Yeah. It's more of like a felt sensation. But I do remember visually some things that I saw, and the gist of it was essentially a tree and seeing each leaf, and then, you know, when a tree... when a leaf is, um, disintegrating and you can kind of see the veins. I would go into that until I was the molecule of the smallest molecule in that system, and it was boundaryless. Mm-hmm. And I realized I am everything. You know, it's... You listen to scientists and researchers talk about wanting to understand what all of this really is, and, and they try to... And they do. They fit it into math and formulas to, to get an understanding of how the cosmos work and how physics works. B- But, but there's always questions. Mm-hmm. Now that we know this, then what's the answer to this? Now that we know this... And I think all that's incredibly important, but the thing about bufo is a lot of times after you've had that experience that, that you had- There, there's no more questions. Mm-hmm. It's just... It's almost like you know too much. Absolutely. It's like I've been into the great mystery. Honestly, it might be easier to forget a little bit of this. Yeah. 'Cause once, once you see it, you don't unsee it. You don't unsee it. And yeah, that's exactly right, and it was a very intense experience. And while I definitely recommend knowing what you're getting into, at least as best as you can, sometimes things just happen exactly how they're supposed to happen. Yeah. And I was totally blind. It's like, you know, I had no idea what I was about to do. And I do remember towards the end of it, I kind of sat up in that moment where y- you're not sure if you're dead or alive and like, "Where am I?" And the person serving me was trying to give me more, and I just remember saying, "No, no, no, no. It's, it's too much. It's too much." And what came up for me was I had this super clear vision of my youngest nephew, who at the time was probably only, I don't know, two or three, and I had this overwhelming feeling of what if- would happen with him, what would his experience be if I died? I thought, "That's such a weird thing to think of." Like, "Why am I thinking of that right now?" And then all these, um, feelings, thoughts came racing through around death. And I never really considered myself a person that was afraid of death. Um, but what I realized in that experience was what I was actually afraid of was the control around death. Mm. "What's the little nephew gonna do? What's Jason gonna do? He's gonna be so sad," and you know, "we had this plan to go here. And what about that junk drawer I never cleaned out?" Almost like you, you feel responsible for his grief. Exactly. Um, and, and he was just the thing that was visual, but it was everything. And being in Bufo having that realization, I was like, "Julie, you are so cute. You little speck of dust." It doesn't matter because whatever experience anyone or anything has, that is part of their journey. That's the one they came here for. That's what they came here for. And so the second I die in transition, in my mind, whether it's right or wrong, but I believe it, is I'm in Bufoland, which is everywhere and everything. Mm-hmm. So it just changed the way I saw everything. The things that I thought were a big deal, they, they were almost laughable because it's a real... I realize for me it's such a gift to be in this human body right now. And even when things go bad, it's like, well, how cool that we're alive that we can experience that emotion of being upset. It's, it's, uh, it's a video game- Yeah. It's a- that we take- Totally way too seriously. Yeah. You know? And we say video... You know, there's a lot of talk right now amongst, you know, AI and scientists, and the question is, is this a simulation? But the thing is, is like a lot of us been saying that forever, you know? But it's just like some people call the simulation created by a programmer, others call it created by God, you know? And it's, um- Well, once you have that experience like you had, and you can Y- y- you almost laugh- Mm-hmm when you think about how serious we take things. And we still do. We have to wake up and remember that it's an illusion every day because it's really easy to fall back into the, "This is reality, and I need to be scared of what my politician's saying, and the-" Yeah "banks collapsing, and the war is happening," and all the different things until you, you s- you stop. And this is the, the importance of being present or hanging out in nature because you can stop, zoom out, and be like, "Oh, yeah, it's just a game." Yeah. And as exciting as the world is right now and scary for some people, you know, the way you and I kind of believe, this is the exact moment that we chose to be here for. Yeah. So we might as well enjoy the adventure of it. Absolutely. I mean, sitting here looking at you, thinking of some of the wild things that we've been through. Y- you know, and some of those moments, it's like, "Is this our life right now?" I know. "Is this what's happening?" I mean, there's, there's been times where we've been on a boat, escaping the jungle. Yeah. You know, that's a story for another day. But looking at each other, going, "How?" Like, there's people sitting in offices in Dallas, Texas, looking at spreadsheets, and we're on a riverboat escaping the jungle for whatever circumstance. Yep. Looking at each other like, "How, how did we get here?" Yeah. But also feeling like, "Thank God that we're together." Yeah. And, you know, I think that's part of the, part of the beauty of it is finding your tribe, like finding those people that just in an instant you know, "That's my person." Mm-hmm. And also appreciating the moments when that's not the case and understanding that this person is in this container for a reason. Uh-huh. And being able to look at them and understand that they have their own perspective, and this is all fitting together in some big cosmic way for a reason, such as being, being there for it. You know, it's like- And it's, it's interesting because when you really do find your tribe, like once you find them, it's almost this understanding of like, "Fuck, we, we did it. We found each other." Yeah. "That we came here to find each other." You know? Yeah. So would you say that that first bufo was a super- pivotal moment in the trajectory of your life? 100%. I mean, as far as at least, you know, like I said, there's so many significant... I've had a pretty interesting life, um, as far as variety, but I would say in regard to where I am now, absolutely, it changed my life. Um, because all of a sudden, the veil had been lifted. Mm-hmm. And I saw all those things that I couldn't unsee, and it's, it is true. It's, there's no way to erase it, at least for me, in my experience. Um, and so I started kind of working more deeply with other plant medicines and seeing, like, how can we weave all this together? Because what I know now is that when we say medi- when we say plant medicines, you know, we're using that term, it's understood in these communities, um, but they all have these different energies to them. And once I started working with several more deeply, I could understand how these are all master teachers. It's almost like they're a board at a college. And like- And they all have their own unique way of teaching- Yeah, absolutely about different things. About different things. You know, we have like, we'd say like Ayahuasca, the grandmother. We have Peyote Huachuma, the grandfather, the Niño Santos, the mushrooms, and, um- Some are vision quests- Mm-hmm some are heart openers, some are family medicine. Yeah. And it's all... It's kind of like, I was talking to someone this morning about how that idea, like your mom tells you the same thing for twenty years. "Come on, Julie, this is what you need to do. It's so clear." But then you sit in the mess hall and someone tells you the exact same thing, and all of a sudden it's like, "Oh, w- this is amazing, this information." And your mom's saying, "I've been telling you this for twenty years." And I feel like sometimes the medicines will work like that. Like if you can't receive a certain teaching from one medicine, sometimes the other ones will come in and sort of be able to tell you in a different way or show you in a different way, in a way that you can retain it or, um, digest it. So yeah, so one day, uh, my friend that him and I did a lot of medicine work together, he called me up and he said, "Hey, have you heard about Kambo?" And I said, "I don't think so. Tell me about it. What is it?" And he told me, and he said, "I really wanna do it," but there wasn't anywhere, any practitioners at the time where he lived. So he said, "Why don't you find us somewhere to go?" So I did, and again, we don't know what we don't know, so I didn't know what kind of questions to ask. I just trusted that I'm gonna talk to a few people, whoever answered my call, and I'll pick one. So I picked one. And, um- Rightfully so, she was trying to encourage us to just do one session since we had never done it, but we somehow convinced her to give us a double session. Like two in a row? Like two in a row. Like a two by two. Like a two by two, exactly. And again, it's like, "Julie, why are you always getting these exceptions? Is this good?" Um, but, you know, we talked to her about the work that we do and everything, and she felt like we could handle it, so that's how... That was my first introduction to combo. And, um, you know, it was a practitioner that worked with high volumes of water, that whole deal. Um, I think I drank three, three liters or something. And, you know, the thing is with C- with combo, you'll hear me say combo just because my Southern drawl. Technically it's combo. But, you know, with combo, we've seen a lot of changes over the last five years, and the common... W- Y- We, we can only work with the knowledge that we have at the time. Mm-hmm. Right? And it used to be that commonly it was worked with anywhere from two to four liters of water pre-combo, and sometimes even drinking, you know, while you're in the experience beyond that two to four liters, which we've since discovered that that can be really dangerous. But as you said, sometimes we don't know what we don't know. Right. And yeah, so the first dot went on, and I think, uh- I purged immediately, and I could still feel the coolness of the water. But, you know, it was fine. It was just I was there for it. And I felt, um, very connected to the medicine during those two sessions. And, um, afterwards, I just felt kind of, uh, like peppy, like a little bit more vibrant. And again, this is a time where I had somewhat recently, I think like within a year, finished all the IVF rounds, so my body was still pretty wrecked, and I was still emotionally a little bit, um, affected by that. And I felt so good after it in the coming days. I thought, "I wanna go back and do this again." So I took... There's a, a family that kind of adopted me in, and, uh, they're from Mexico, and I took a few of the family members to go see her. And so I had my, my third session, and then a few more family members wanted to go, so I took them. So I'd, you know, I'd received probably four times within, I'd say, like a month. Mm-hmm. And I didn't really pay attention to how I was feeling differently until my husband one day said, "Hey, babe, have you noticed that your wrists haven't hurt and your back hasn't hurt?" Because I used to have a lot of back pain and joint pain. I said, "Oh, yeah, I didn't really notice that." Right? It's like, let's pay attention. Um, and I thought, "Wow, there's something to this." So again, this is not something I recommend, but this is my story. My friend and I that were doing all the medicine work, we thought, "This is something we should learn how to work with." So we did a, I say, quote-unquote, research. We watched videos, looked up stuff online, and we kinda thought, "You know, I think, yeah, like we totally serve combo. It's a big deal." So we got some kits together, um, and started working with each other and then our close friend and family groups that were kind of in our circle. And, uh, I'll never forget, there was one day where he served me six dots on my forearm, and we were outside with another friend And I was on my knees wailing, and I'm not a crier. Like, most people that know me haven't ever seen me cry. And I was just wailing. All this emotion was coming out, and I think that I kind of left my body. Um, but I remember that I was st- like, sitting upright on my knees. And the next thing I remember was that, uh, my girlfriend that was there had my shirt lifted up in the back, and she was just rubbing me down with wet towels, just like, like wiping me down, and I didn't understand what was happening. And, um, that went on for quite some time. Who knows how long we left the medicine on. And, uh, anyway, I finally recovered, and that was, like, a wake-up call, and it was like, "Julie, what are you doing? You don't know what you're doing." Mm-hmm. And I said, "You know what? I love this medicine, and I'm supposed to be working with it, but I need to be trained." Um, and by the way, just before all that happened, I had decided that my time teaching was done, but I had no idea what I was gonna do. And so I had this conversation with myself about, well, do I go part-time, and then the thing will come? And again, I got one of those messages that said, "Nope, you gotta quit cold turkey, be naked and vulnerable, have no idea what's next, and then you'll figure it out." And I thought, "Are you sure? Did I hear this right?" Mm. And that was the task, and that's what I did, and then I found Combo. Um, and I remember looking online. I was like, "Texas, Combo," and all of a sudden I saw Tribal Detox. And, uh, my friend, I, I told her about it, and she was like, "Yeah, you should call them and see what's going on. There's a class, and it's got two spots open." And I remember having my call with you, Jason- sitting at my neighbor's, outside at her pool by myself, and the second I heard your voice, I was like, "This country boy-" talking about CAMBO?" And I said, "Yeah, this is, this is my guy," because I come from that kind of background. Like, I'm very spiritual, but I'm also very practical. Mm-hmm. And when I heard your voice, it was that moment where I said, "This is my tribe." Yeah. "That's my people." And then you're off to CAMBO school. Off to CAMBO school. How was that experience? It was, um, it was incredible. I actually thought I was gonna go by myself, but the friend that I was talking to decided she was going with me, so we went there together. Um, and yeah, it was, uh, it was... I learned so much. I couldn't believe that I was doing what I was doing before I got there. Um, and then really, I think in our class, there were 12 people. Yeah. Yeah. It was a g- Yeah, you had a... You, you were the first big class that we did. Mm-hmm. And just really seeing, like, how many different people showed up to that class, the different personalities, but yet they were all called to do this, you know? And boy, that class had some interesting Mm. It was an interesting one. CAMBO school's always exciting. Yeah. It's like, we're just gonna throw all these people together. You know, you're living together for however many days. But yeah, it was a It was really powerful. I felt like I finally created that relationship with the medicine in the way... You know, I guess I didn't know what that would feel like, but I felt it there. And I sure, I l- I left feeling like I'm capable to do this. I know how to keep people safe, and for me, that's one of the foundational things about me is safety first- Mm-hmm um, in every kind of situation. And yeah, just I could really see that this is a community. This is a family, and maybe not everyone lives together, but we all have each other to call on. Um, and you know, I... And still, to this day, some of my closest friends came from that class. And, you know, we've done other combo schools together, different trainings, and stay connected. Um- It really has grown into family. Yeah. You know, even here at Grundstað, I'm not sure how many there's. I think over 20 of us here. Mm-hmm. But just, you know, it's a lot of people. You know, all the students... So I... That's why I love this event because there's a lot of students that haven't met each other. They meet each other for the first time here, and literally just watching them meet each other from the first time is like immediate family. Yeah. Yeah. It's like meeting a second cousin you didn't know about. Uh, yeah. Right? And it's like, "Hey, you're cool." Yeah. "I'm cool. We're both cool." Yeah. Yeah. At least we think we are, you know. It's great. So w- what was that experience for you to, to go from teaching, you know, whether it's in the context of children or survival, to now you're kinda moving into this new line of work where you're serving, back, back being of service, you know, serving Campbell? Yeah. It felt, uh, it felt very natural. It, it... I, I almost don't like sharing my experience of when I first started out because in some ways it was just perfect. Mm-hmm. Um, I was really fortunate that I had a lot of people in my life that really trusted me and felt safe with me, and I think that, um, all the things I've done in my life with the women's work, I was, you know, f- Volunteer facilitator in a prison program. Like, all these different things I'd done had taught me really how to just be with all kinds of different people and figure out, "How do I make this person feel comfortable and safe in this space?" And so a lot of people were willing to come and sit with me, and, you know, when I first started, I said, "Just come try. It's not We're not doing payments. If you wanna do an exchange or something, but just come. Let me practice. Let me try this." And so many people showed up that then they would go tell other people about it, and so on. And so I kind of had a pretty easy beginning that, um, I had clients showing up and, you know, Jason knows this, but I'm not the best at, you know, social media. I, I try. I try. I make it happen. But I'm just kind of the ki- sort of person that I trust whoever's supposed to specifically be with me and vice versa, that's what's gonna happen. You've always just followed your own light. Yeah. Wherever it takes you. Yeah, and- And it works it works. You know? It's like a I guess if it's not, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, you know, I'm not out there trying to be the number one this or the most popular this. It's just, if there's one person that I'm supposed to sit with, that's enough, and that's, that's worth it. So yeah, I, um, have a When we bought our house, there's a little casita in the back. It's this, you know, like, a tiny house. That's what we call it in Texas. And since we don't have kids, we already had two guest rooms, and we're thinking, "What are we gonna do with this space?" And everyone kept saying, "It feels like a healing space." And I do Reiki and other modalities, but that just wasn't landing for me, so I turned it into, like, you know, I had the Peloton in there, guest, another guest bed. And then I started Combo, and it was like, "Oh, yeah. Hello. It's the Combo Studio." The Combo space. Which, uh, my business is now called Combo Coyote, so now we call it the Coyote's Den. Mm, I love it. Yeah, it's cool, and that's, that's where we do medicine, and it just, um, it just kind of came really naturally. And then at one point you called me up, and you were like, "Hey, so what do you think about being an instructor?" Mm-hmm. And I said, "Jason, you know, I quit my teaching job. I'm not a teacher." And he said, "Well, just think about it." And I think it took, like, a few months, and I think one time I told you, "I'm gonna sleep on it for three nights, and then I'll answer you." And I thought, "Why would I not wanna do this?" And so that's what I did. We've really come full circle- Yeah to teaching in several different contexts, to finding medicine, to becoming a facilitator, and now teaching others to do what you do. What's that been like? It's been, um- 'Cause I explain to people it's, uh, it's a totally different ga- It's still medicine work, but it's a completely different game. It's a completely different game being an instructor. Um, luckily I had the background of already hav- having been a teacher. And, uh, I remember one time at the school, at my regular, uh, the school for children, um, I had this new teacher come, and he was really intelligent, and the curriculum, I mean, he had it nailed down, the curriculum, but the classroom management was really difficult for him. And so he would, you know, ask me for support with certain students, and we were talking about it. And what it boiled down to is when it comes to teaching, there's really ma- mainly two sides to it, the curriculum and the cr- classroom management. One of those is a lot easier to teach than the other. The curriculum you can study, you can try, and eventually you can figure it out. But classroom management, I think, is really, has a lot to do with who you are as a person, how you interact with people. And I remember when I first agreed to do that, I thought, "Well, Jason, how am I gonna teach this? Like, I don't know everything." And, and he said, "Julie, it's fine. You got this. The biggest part is the people." And what I knew was I got that. Like, hanging out with people from all different walks of life, that is something that comes pretty naturally to me, and I enjoy it. Even when it's sticky, I enjoy it because it's just an experience. Mm-hmm. Um, so, you know, I remember I came out and assisted you guys a couple times, and I think that's kind of a, it was a really good partnership in that way, um, because I was happy to, you know, have a fire circle, and let's sing songs, and let's go talk and connect, and tell me all about your feelings you know? Um, and that part, it's, it's energizing to me to an extent. You know, there's always a time where it's nice to have a break. But, um, yeah, it's just being able to meet everyone where they're at- With a common understanding of how we work within tribal detox protocol and figuring out, "How do I help this person with who they are go out into the world and be able to help other people with this modality?" Um, and it's been beautiful. And, you know, I had a class last, last summer, '25, where a couple of my close friends came and a couple of the guys that are here with us today at Grunt Style. And- And your students. Yeah, they're my students. And, um, and it was just such a, such a beautiful opportunity to share, sh- to share this information in a different way. And, you know, I have private students come. Two of your students actually came out of this event, this Grunt Style event. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's where they discovered this. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. And so, yeah, it's just like, it's building the web, you know? And then we all come back together, and we all have these different connections. Um, but yeah, I, I, I l- I enjoy teaching because the truth is I talk about it all the time. You know? Mm-hmm. One of my favorite things is, of course, I love working with anyone. I love working with medicine people, like quote, unquote "medicine people." But the sweet spot for me is finding the good old country boy that is looking at me like I'm crazy talking about frog juice and being able to explain what it actually is and what it's actually doing. And I had this guy, uh, that started... One of my police officer friends referred him to me, and he had, uh, CPTSD, uh, ADHD, a lot of anxiety. He was still having night terrors. He was also... He was a veteran, but also a retired sheriff's deputy. And boy, he was so skeptical. And I said, "Yeah, this is weird stuff." "It's weird stuff, but we're gonna keep it simple. We're gonna..." You know, it... I didn't do anything too wild, and it absolutely changed his life. Wow. And he started coming once a month, and he said, "I can't believe it. It's, uh, it's the first time I can remember not waking my wife up in the middle of the night screaming." Wow. And it's like, that's what it's all about. And it- That's why we do it it's why we do it. And if he was the only one that came to me ever, like, worth it. Yeah. That's just making an impact in one person's life. As I say often, people just wanna feel better. And when they feel better, they, they do better. They treat each other nicer. Yeah. You know? So just making an impact in one person can impact so many others- Yeah indirectly. So opening ceremony's coming up soon. We're gonna have to wrap this up. But, you know, as a practitioner, you've, you've got to see all different types of walks of life, and you've got to see so many, you know, different stories, especially underdog stories, people that weren't supposed to make it- Yeah that ended up making. What, what would... You know, if somebody's out there feeling You know, whether it's broken, whether they're at a, you know, uh, intersection in their life and not sure which direction to go and they're entertaining possibly the potential of some of these medicines for assistance, what, what would you tell those people? You know, I would say when I talk about any of this, I never offer promises, but I offer possibilities. Mm-hmm. And people that are down in the depths of it, that are suffering so much on a daily basis, I ask them directly. I say, "Would you be willing to suffer a little bit for 20 minutes to potentially just maybe have a little bit of relief tomorrow?" Mm-hmm. "And maybe the next day, and wow, what about three days?" And when I frame it like that, most people, maybe out of even a little bit of embarrassment or shame, are like, "Well, yeah, I guess. Like, this girl's telling me it's 20 minutes. What's the big deal?" Yeah. But I think when we put it like that, you know, we're so accustomed to our suffering that sometimes we don't even recognize it, and the thing about Combo Two or any of these modalities is there's so many ways to do it. It doesn't have to be a wild- It doesn't have to be brutal. No, it doesn't have to be a wild rodeo. It can actually be quite gentle. Um, and so I'd say finding someone that resonates with you, being able to ask questions, make sure that it's a safe setup. But the bottom line is, if you are suffering and you feel like you've exhausted all your resources and you hear about one of these modalities, that is now another resource that you have. And so if you wake up with breath in your lungs, you have a choice. What is the worst that can happen? Why not just try it? And, you know, there's so many people out there, I can speak even with my own experience with people that I've worked with, that it's like they can't imagine if they would've said no. Mm-hmm. They just can't imagine if they had said no. For, for a lot of us that have been... You know, you've been on this about a decade. I've been on this about a decade. A lot of times it's hard to remember life before that pivotal moment. Yeah. Absolutely. It's just- It, it really does start over for a lot of people. Mm-hmm. Well, how can people find you, Julie? Where are you located at? I'm located in Austin, Texas. It's called Combo Coyote. And yeah, I have a beautiful space. If you wanna come sit, you can find me on Instagram, website, combocoyote.com. What, what's... combocoyote.com? Is the website, and the Instagram is combocoyote. All right. We'll put it in the show notes. Thanks for being here. All right. Thank you.