Why Most Workplace Learning Doesn't Work (And What To Do Instead)

What is the difference between covering a topic and actually teaching it? The best L&D designers know the answer.

In this revisited episode, Matt is joined by Jonathan Hill, award-winning learning manager and e-learning developer based in the UK. They talk about designing learning that really works, not just content that gets completed because it’s a requirement.

Moving beyond the ‘click next’ slide mentality that holds e-learning back, Jonathan talks through how video changed his approach to design, and the key part sound plays in this.

He also shares one of his most practical tools for working with subject matter experts - a simple reframe that helps surface what learners need to take away. And if you've ever wondered whether there's room for humor in compliance content, Jonathan has an interesting take!

Important links and mentions:

• See if Jonathan can help you communicate your expertise
• Connect with Jonathan

Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_01 0:00

There's a place for personality in learning and development. There's a particularly a place for personality in e-learning. And if you do it in the right way, you can create warm, engaging experiences which stand in contrast to this very regular diet of boilerplate, compliance, kick next ye content. And I think if you can find that space and find that voice, there's very powerful results to be had.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Hey everybody, this episode was originally recorded a few years ago, but listening back, I was struck by how relevant Jonathan's ideas still are. In fact, many of the trends we discussed, such as microlearning, learning in the flow of work, empowering subject matter experts, and bringing more personality into workplace learning, have only accelerated with AI. As you listen, pay particular attention to Jonathan's thoughts on finding the right format for the job, focusing on business outcomes instead of course completions, and making learning feel more human. With that said, let's jump in to this episode. Jonathan Hill is an award-winning learning manager and e-learning developer based in the UK, currently working in the gaming and gambling industry. He is an articulate superhero and also a big fan of Camtasia. Woo-hoo! Thank you, Jonathan. And likes to experiment with training formats to challenge traditional ideas of workplace learning, which is why I want to welcome Jonathan Hill to the Visual Lounge. Jonathan, welcome.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Hi, hi Matt. Good to see you again. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Yo, it is so great to have you here. We have, you know, I think we've crossed paths uh paths in like on LinkedIn, on Twitter, and all across the social media stuff. But uh, I mean it's just brilliant to be able to have you here and and be able to chat with you. So, real quick, anything I didn't say in the introduction that people should know about you before we dive into our questions?

SPEAKER_01 1:54

No, that was very fair. After being arrested, that was a very fair summary.

How Jonathan got involved in video and moving away from slide mentality

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Our first question is you know, you you mentioned you're a fan of Camtasia, so I feel like this is fair game. How did you get involved with starting to use video?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Yeah, so um as an e-learning designer, um I moved into articulate in particular from PowerPoint. So I had a kind of slide mentality. And I think a lot of people who who perhaps start as SMEs and then move into authoring tools in that way, um, tend to take that slide mentality with them. Um and slides tend to be snapshots, they tend to be frozen moments in time, don't they, of data, headlines, often too much information. We've all sat through, we've all sat through those presentations. That's why my uh Twitter handle is dev by PowerPoint, because it's a bit of a pun, you know, that you know, because so often actually now I still go back to PowerPoint when I'm specing things out. But obviously, one of the limitations is it tends to be quite a static format. And if you if you take that mindset into e-learning design, your e-learning designs can feel a bit slidy, a bit kind of static and slidey. Um, so there were occasions um when I first started getting into e-learning where um the the obvious low-hanging fruit for video was screen grabs, screen captures, um, showing systems and processes in what was uh a financial services uh industry, the insurance industry, uh, and how to navigate claims systems and the like and screen capture. Um so I first started to get involved in in video via that because what would often happen is my subject matter experts would um do a screen capture of a process, and the mouse would be all over the screen, and there'd be lots of like heavy pauses and then lots of lots of really fast activity. And I I got into editing those videos to kind of take those take those errors out, but also work with the um the screen geography as I like to call it, the system geography. You know, there's areas of a screen, particularly in financial products, which you don't need to focus on for the bit that you're training on. So I was I was getting into pans and zooms and and cropping, uh, and that's what that's what got me into it. I wanted to just focus on what was get move away from a slide mentality, but also then use editing tools to focus in on what was important on that shot. Um, and I also got to do a few um little promotional videos for the company I was working at at the time. Uh we were given a budget to go and buy a camera and went out and filmed some um interviews with key members of staff. So I also started to get involved in video that way as well. Um, and I think with without having done that, without having cut my teeth in that way, I perhaps still would have had that here's a slide of information, here's a slide of information. And it just kind of breaks you out of that a bit. And the way that video can kind of particularly if you use it at the start of a course, can really kind of set the set the tone, set the scene, and really grab attention. Um, that's what I've developed into recently, uh, using it as uh lots of cold opens, you know, look at this terrible situation and how can we fix it and kind of set set the challenge for the learner.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

I I I love that, and I love that it it you you you made that transition because I think I I do see a lot of people going from that slide mentality to I need something more robust, I need something that's gonna be not so just static and and video is a great way. And I love that you're you know, even today I saw some examples of video that I uh on LinkedIn. Someone posted this example of all these kind of short snippets, kind of like TikTok style videos that were put together for Excel. That was awesome. But the thing is I couldn't read the formulas. Like on my screen, I'm like, I it's a great example of video, but I can't see that little formula that you're typing out. And so, you know, there's lots of ways that you can enhance uh with those pans and zooms and focus that attention. So that's great.

Creating successful workplace learning

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Okay, next question. Uh, we're gonna talk more about workplace learning here in uh later on, but I want to ask you this question what what is success for workplace learning look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 5:48

That is the $64,000 question, isn't it? Um if you ask why we get paid the big bucks here. If you ask the accountants, it's return on investment, and if you ask L D, um it's often still focused on reaction to learning. Um I don't think as an industry we go far enough into Kirkpatrick as we need to. Um, and we're somewhat happy, somewhat content with cheat, you know, we've happy sheets that come out of a course at the end of a course, at the end of the training session, if everyone was happy with the training, then then that's the result. So um I think there's a there's a real need to demonstrate that what you've produced, the intervention you've put in place has had the outcome that was outcome that was desired. So if somewhere in the business a dashboard is flashing, a warning light on a dashboard is flashing that something is going wrong, then it's be a really good root cause analysis as to what's going wrong before you even chuck training at it. And then if the solution is training either in full or in part, having implemented that, as that has that light stopped flashing on the dashboard? Um and that and that to me really is the kind of very kind of Fisher Price summary of where we need to be. Um, someone comes to you with a problem, establish it's a problem that can be solved by L and D. And then once you've deployed your solution, has that warning light stopped flashing? And and those are the metrics that the business are going to look at, and in particular, those are metrics that any senior leadership team are going to look at. And if that laugh if that dashboard light's still fashing at the next senior leadership team meeting, they're going to be looking at L and D and asking why. Um so I've become much more mindful of that as I've advanced in my career and become a learning manager. Um, I still like to get into the nuts and bolts of design and all that, all that good stuff that creates the really inclusive, um, warm, um, detailed experience for users, and they come away from that experience feeling like they've they've gained something and had a good experience, but I also need to talk hard numbers sometimes, and that's where we get into the impact of that.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

I I love that that you're thinking that way, and we'll talk more about workplace learning here in in a few minutes. But before we do

One tip to improve video in workplace learning

SPEAKER_00 7:58

that, what's one tip you could give the audience to help them improve using let's take focus on video. So, what's one tip they could use to help you could give them to help improve using video in their workplace, we'll say learning even, workplace learn learning.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

I think the the single biggest thing you can do is regardless of of lighting, setting, effects, is just the sound. You've got to get the sound right. Um, because particularly if if you're expecting people to sit and watch and listen, um, the sound is really important. And then obviously, paired with that, uh, for those for whom sound isn't an option, either environmental or personal reasons, uh closed captioning uh and making sure you you get at least both. Because frankly, everything else is kind of a nice to have. The visuals need to be clear, of course, but if you can't understand what somebody's saying or follow what somebody's describing, then you kind of there's there's little point to doing it. Um and and and sound is I mean such a hard thing to get right. Um, but when you do, it really really pays dividends.

What does ‘workplace learning’ actually cover

SPEAKER_00 9:03

First question, we've you we talked about kind of the results, what defines good outcomes, right? The the measurement earlier on in the episode. But when we when you're thinking about workplace learning, let's go step back kind of high, really high level. What are you talking about, workplace learning? Is it all learning in the workplace? Is it you know, are the limitations here? Is it like what where do you focus on when you talk about workplace learning?

SPEAKER_01 9:28

That that is another 64 pounds on a question, isn't it? Um we're we're we're totting up quite a bill here. Um the I think it depends on the culture of the business uh versus the resources that they have and the constraints that the the users, the learners operate in. Um, what I think most organizations um do well is putting uh regular mandated compliance content in front of people on a pretty regular basis for obvious reasons, and I think I think most large organizations are pretty good at that. Where I see um learning and LD taking that further is is almost embedding the learning culture that encourages people to visit those resources outside of those times in ways that meet them in the flow of work and in ways that don't take them away from their work in in such large numbers for such large quantities of time that it affects the actual business you're trying to support. So there's there's definitely a balance to be had there between um resources and courses, um, and sometimes a decade is enough. Um, you don't need to go, you know, fully featured e-learning or video, sometimes a decade will be enough, but that's part of a wider learning culture that that allows people the option to visit and obtain access to information in a variety of formats that that meet them in the flow of work. Um, and that's the bit that I think most organizations can always do better at, um, and taking taking their learning platform and the learning content away from it being a kind of mandated experience to something that people um actually enjoy doing and will seek out in their quiet moments. So my career today has been largely around regulated industries like insurance, financial services, and most recently gaming and gambling. But what they have in common is that they're often um the coalface of those businesses are often call centres with agents who are taking calls, taking chats with customers, uh, they've got wrap times, they've got targets to meet, and slotting in learning into that into that routine. Um I I've seen a gradual push toward more micro learning formats to support that, um, and also interfaces with with platforms that they use regularly. So I've seen some quite inventive uses of Teams and Slack and other communication channels that most modern businesses use, and learning integrations that kind of speak to those systems as well are very exciting as well, because you're not only meeting them in the flow of their job, you're meeting them actually in the screen that they work in on a day-to-day basis, and and and competing for your audience's attention against everything else that they've got going on whilst allowing them to still service their customers. That's that's the golden formula for me. Um, and and just pushing beyond you must sit down and do your work, as they say on South Park. You know, it's um that's not a culture I like to like to impose or follow.

How to infuse a workplace learning culture

SPEAKER_00 12:20

How do you infuse kind of a workplace learning culture? Because you know, culture is a is a big thing, it's it's hard to move, I think, oftentimes.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

I think I think this goes beyond sort of asynchronous and e-learning as well. I think um there needs to be a very clear journey for anyone entering that business as to what support they will receive in terms of learning and training and resources throughout their career, and and that's got to be aligned to the trajectory of their career. So you come in as an entry-level employee, and as you become more highly qualified, highly skilled, highly more highly tenured, what support do you get? And in turn, what support do you offer others who are not quite as far along that journey as you? Because what I see as a big part of this is being you'll have formal trainers and formal e-learning designers, but also creating almost an ecosystem in which you recognise you have mentors, team leaders, SMEs in the business. Um, I'm I'm a big fan of putting people in those positions um through uh a kind of basic training without it making without making it sound like full metal jacket, you know, like a basic training in you know um mentoring skills and and being able to have learning conversations with with their staff. Um, and that's a combination of being able to coach and mentor their their um colleagues, um, but also being up to date as to what resources are available and almost act as an ambassador for and promoter of the the system. Um and have a kind of try and try and produce a virtuous circle, in fact, you know, so people go through this process, they become advocates for the process and help others through the same process. And then with that, you need some policies that support that. So um, where you do have busy workplaces where time is precious, you I think you need to ring fence some people's time for those those learning events that can't be in the flow of work. You know, you do need a bit of dedicated time, sometimes even a dedicated area. So you think of a call centre floor, um, there might even be a side room where you just set up a slightly different environment for learning to occur, be it be it e-learning or or in-person training, you know. Um it's surprising how many organizations uh try and carry out formal training on the floor or in or in huddles while everything else is going on, and that has its place and it does work and it's part of a bigger learning culture. But I think having dedicated time and space as well for focused learning activity, as well as that peer-to-peer mentor support is really really crucial as well. And a lot of LMS providers have latched onto this as well, and and many of the main LMS providers now provide space in the system to do that, and also allow you know, um, appointed people in the business to capture their own screens, make their own videos, pop it onto the system and share their knowledge and expertise and have it kind of be in a kind of self-sustaining system as well. Um, and uh personally, I'd like to reach that point with my own organization. Um, I hand on heart, we're not we're not at that point at the moment, but that's where I see uh you know it becoming not just a question of return on investment because it becomes just part of the machinery of the business, um, and and where problems do emerge, they they almost self-correct. Um, and that that would be you know the the the ultimate LD environment and culture for me.

What is the role of multimedia in L&D content

SPEAKER_00 15:35

So, from a media perspective, what what's the role of multimedia, whether that's images, video, shoot, we'll throw in interactive kind of e-learning stuff. What is what role does that play in this content? It sounds like it it's got a role, there's lots probably things you can do with it, but how would you help an organization to maybe narrow down on what to use when?

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Yeah, so um I think clearly things like video and and short videos and and carefully curated suites of videos are really, really good to give people quick two or three minute summaries of a topic, guides on how to do something. Uh it might be part of a process they don't do often, but it's perhaps as important that they know where to go for the refresher than perhaps know the process. Um, and that's that's part of the magic here as well, I think, is that when you are curating multimedia content, that it it it gets the message across in a succinct way, um, and people know where to find it and can access it readily and easily in order to get the answer they need, often to help a customer, uh or often just to refresh themselves as they're doing a task that that's you know infrequent but important. Um and and perhaps mapping out um per job role you know what what's the bread and butter activity for that that job role, what's a nice to know, what's a need to know, what's something they don't call upon often, and then cutting your cloth accordingly and and creating resources that that best fit that topic and best fit the format and best fit the the time and space in which that needs to be consumed. Um it is a bit of an old chestnut though that every time I need to fix something in the house, I go straight on YouTube and watch a video on how to fix it. You know, it's a washing machine seal or I need to change a tap. Um so the the power of seeing someone do something, um, watching someone else do it, um, and having that broken down into steps that you can easily replicate. Um, you know, we we do it all the time in our personal lives, we're not quite so good at doing it in our workplace, um, because we tend to oscillate between here's a PDF with lots of information in in case you need it, and here's a two-hour training course that you need to sit all the way through, and the navigation's locked. And it's that oscillation I think that kind of puts people off, and we need to meet them, meet them somewhere in the middle. And multimedia is definitely um one of the purest and um and more immediate ways of doing that when you do it well.

Making sure the learning fits the environment

SPEAKER_00 18:07

So, so one of the things I I I wonder about, so I we I think a lot of people in the L and D industry who've worked in there a long time or or even generally, I think if you've ever worked with a subject matter expert or SME is how however you like to call them often what when and I am guilty of this, right? Even in the show, I'm an expert, I know a lot, I have a tendency to say like too much. And as soon as we empower some of our peers that are not learning development experts, and I think we're just as guilty of this when it comes to our stuff, but when we empower them to say, like, hey, you know, let's start making this stuff so it's immediate on demand, we can fix the the tap or the washer steel or whatever it is that they need to do and they're equivalent in their workplace. How do you how do you help make sure that there you're kind of non-expert learning development people, subject matter experts are making stuff that is going to fit well and work in those environments? What advice do you give to to folks that you work with?

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Um I've in the past used what I call the the Twitter challenge. And I I know Twitter isn't in good favour at the moment, but um what I've tended to do in the past is I I've said to to subject matter experts, um, thanks for your 14 pages of content. Um could we get this into 14 tweets? What are the, you know, what are the what are the big takeaways from each of these pages? And can you say that in 240 characters or less and treat it almost like a Twitter challenge? So if you were tweeting this information to your followers rather than sharing it with your colleagues, how would you go about doing it in a way that met that format? Now that's not to say that the final product would be restricted in the same way, but it just gets them to focus on crikey, yeah. You know, if I was trying to broadcast this via a platform like Twitter that had such restrictions, and I didn't have the luxury of loads of video, a team of e-learning designers, four hours of my colleagues' time, how would I get this get this over to them? And that's something I've used probably for five or ten years now in terms of sitting down with SMEs. Um, and um you can kind of say to them in that way without saying to them, this is a bit long-winded, or you need to get to the point. We'll say uh I often sometimes use as cover as well, and hope no one's watching this who have had this conversation with um my my my layouts won't accommodate won't accommodate a a question of that length, for instance, or um my layout, uh if I put all this content in, I'm gonna have to change the font size and start messing around with my layout. So could you do me a favor, do me a solid, and and just cut this back a bit to what it really needs to say so we can we can meet the layout, and often that's about making sure the layout also supports the visuals as well, so the importance of the visuals and the text supporting each other. Um and um you can also then go into some of the psychology of question design as well. Uh and one of the things that SMEs are usually guilty of is the longest answer is usually the correct one and excessive use of jargon, which gives away the correct answer. Um, so another challenge I set to them is is about plausible distractors. So when we get into assessments as well, where sometimes those conversations can go off the rails a little bit, is talk to them about um if you if you were trying to trick a colleague into making the wrong decision, uh, if you're being really mean, what would be the plausible answers here rather than just throwing a few sentences together, which by comparison are obviously the wrong answer. Um, and those are the two common pitfalls I found uh in those relationships. It's too much content or it it or it's it's it's too technical, it's too jargony, and meeting them in the middle by setting them little challenges on how to refine that content, almost gamifying the conversation, if you will, um as as paid dividends. And I've enjoyed some really positive relationships with SMEs over the years by by working with them in that way.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Well, well, I love that idea of uh whether Twitter is in favor or not, that short, like, okay, if I had to send this via a short text message, a short Twitter a short Twitter. Tweet or whatever it is, I love that idea that like that's the focus because then you can say you can still put the most important thing, but you only get so many op times to do that because after 14 tweets, I'm probably done. It's a really long thread, right? Uh but I think they understand that, and that's uh I I I love that idea, and I I'm assuming it applies to video as well, right? Like, well, we used to I we used to make tutorial videos back long time ago now, uh over ten years ago, and you had file restrictions real file restrictions. You know, you can only upload certain sizes to video to YouTube. YouTube had a 15-minute limit. Uh we had a product Jing that could only record five minutes, right? Like you had real limitations, and those were often uh some of our best videos because they constraints of like, well, if this is bigger, I think it was four megabytes. If we had videos for we couldn't upput them on our website. Can you imagine a four megabyte video now? That's insane. This this video alone will be like four hundred megabytes.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Yeah, and and and you can see how the technology influences your solutions in in in in exactly that way. And um sometimes playing to the restrictions that you um are imposed or impose on yourself can really bring out the best in the content as well because it really forces you to focus on what's absolutely pertinent to the topic.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Yeah.

The role of humor in learning

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Well, before we wrap up today, Jonathan, I want to talk to you about humor. I know you you've done some stuff with humor. You uh you know, uh you look engaged engagebraintrain.com. I think you have some stuff on there that's uh some humor stuff. Um first of all, what's so what's the appropriate role of humor in learning? Is there a role or should we just be really serious all the time?

SPEAKER_01 23:38

I I think there's definitely a balance to be struck, but I think if you ask most people who their favourite teacher was at school, um largely um that will be the teacher who was clearly competent at their job, clearly knowledgeable in their topic, but also presented it with humour and uh with humanity. You know, um there's a famous psychology experiment, and the name always escapes me, but they get they get they get three panelists on a radio show, and the one guy is answering all the questions uh expertly, but he's got you know no personality and he's almost robotic. The next guy's probably nearly doing as well as him, but he spills his drink on himself in the course of it. Uh, and then the third guy is absolutely incompetent. And when they test the reactions to the personalities on um on those three characters, the second guy who's competent but fallible and has a bit of humor always comes out as the most likable and and people engage with that. So I think there's a place to be that guy in in e-learning in particular. Um, a lot of e-learning is is pretty boilerplate, it's pretty by the numbers. Um, once you've done it for a while, you can even sometimes tell which authoring tool has been used with your eyes closed. Um, and that's not a bad thing, but imagine you're uh you know at the coal face in a business, you see this content trotted out in front of you every year at the same time. Um I'd like to be a little bit inventive about what that looks like and how that performs, and occasionally that will it that will involve humour. So if the topic lends itself to humour, um I'm all I'm all for using it. Um but I've been fortunate to work in environments where that's been the case. Um, you know, there are definitely topics, and I don't think I'll have to name them that you couldn't use humour for, um, you know, because it would be disrespectful, it would be, you know, uh rude or libelous. Um, but there are lots of occasions where you can use humour to engage your learners. There's studies to show it makes things more memorable, makes content more memorable. Um, and my advice would be to make it context specific. So try and relate it to the context of the topic as as much as possible. But there are occasions where you can perhaps go a little bit Monty Python, have an interaction that doesn't an interaction that doesn't perform quite as expected. Um so for inspiration, you know, I'd I'd I'd say look at the way um look what happens when you're disconnected to the internet on a on a Google browser on your phone. Yeah, you can play that little you can play the little dinosaur game. Now nobody expected that to be there, but it's fun, it's a little bit of a distraction until this until the the internet's back on and you can you can Google away again. Um so there's there's times like that in courses, I think, where rather than having a click next, your interaction might just be a little bit a little bit more whimsical. Um and there's a place for for fun and functional. Um as long as the fun doesn't take you away from being functional and it's still easy to navigate, you know, there there's there's ways that you can do that. Um and I've had a lot of fun with um cartoon characters, robotic characters, um characters who you can put through things that if you put a human through them would would you'd be a very different different matter. But you think of Wiley Coyote, of course, you know, and car cartoon and humour. So, you know, there's there's lots you can do, um, even if it's just a dad joke, even it's just a pun, even it's just the title of your course has got a pun in it. Anything that just makes it kind of stick in the mind, humor, humor does have a place. But of course, you need to get that signed off and it needs to be appropriate.

Getting the SME ‘buy in’ using humor and storytelling

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Well, that is actually a perfect segue to my next question, and I'll just jump to it rather than all the comments I was gonna say about getting having the internet come back on right during high score run of the dinosaur game. Uh, but this does seem like a thing you gotta get signed off on. And so obviously, you know, if if let's say we're having a conversation, you're trying to convince me to use some fun in the functional here, uh, and I'm maybe the CLO or VP of something, and you and I'm like, uh, you know, humor gets us into trouble, or uh, I don't know, that's how do you what what from a kind of corporate leadership standpoint, how do you go about getting that buy-in? Because it does seem like that's humor is is subjective, humor can be tough. If you get it wrong, it can go really wrong, even if you're not intending. And obviously there's subjects that are not the place to try to cut your uh stand-up chops on. Uh, but so so Jonathan, what what do you say to those leaders who are a little hesitant to allow some fun in your your learning courses?

SPEAKER_01 28:15

I mean, I'd reference someone like like Rant Screen and and his work on storytelling, um, and uh and Christy Tucker and and branching scenarios and had as there's space in storytelling and branching scenarios in particular to illustrate the unhappy path, the you know, when things when things go wrong. Um and sometimes the unhappy path can be quite humorous. Um sometimes you can make the um if you if you place the learner in a third person perspective rather than a first person perspective, they can kind of kind of laugh at the person making the mistakes. Uh the learner becomes a kind of god in the machine, as it were. Um they choose the events that befall the character, and when things go slightly wrong, you know, a pratfall, a drink spilt on them, you know. I mean, these are just kind of frivolous examples. But as long as you link it to storytelling and as long as it's within the context of the topic, um I I would find it difficult to become to to you know um accidentally offend or invoke a kind of legal proceedings if you stay stay in your lane, stay, stay relate it to the topic. So as long as you link it to the storytelling and you can and you can sort of convey to your senior leadership team that the power of storytelling in terms of learning. Um some stories have funny endings. Um the unhappy path in a branching scenario could have a funny ending, and and that repetition and reward, perhaps you get to the funny ending, oh you know, you failed, something funny's happened. It kind of just leaves you. You've got feedback to say that you failed, but it's come in a kind of almost like a compliment sandwich. You've had a bit of it, it's wrapped in a joke. Um, so you're you're you're more predisposed perhaps to kind of repeat it and have a kind of warmer experience as a result. So that that would be my pitch. But it's you're right, it's not entirely appropriate, and it's always going to be subject to sign-off.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Yeah, well, I well, I I love that, right? That it's gonna bring, you know, you're gonna bring in these stories. Life is not always serious, funny things happen to us, funny, we have funny stories. Um, so I also say though, here, here, here's because you are a uh the little bit I've gotten to know you. You you you are funny, you have great timing, and you're you know, you've got some comedy skills, I think, I suppose. Uh humor's hard though. It's it's hard to be funny. If you've ever been around like a six-year-old telling a joke and you're just like, that's not funny at all, right? Like, um you know, I so I wonder for those of us who maybe feel humor challenged, um, it doesn't, I mean, I we're saying humor broadly, right? Uh huh humor. It doesn't have to be funny necessarily could

How to improve storytelling and incorporate humor successfully

SPEAKER_00 30:56

be fun, but what what what would you say to it to those people who are like, gosh, I'm just not good at that. I'm not good at the fun part of it. Um play inspiration, you mentioned storytelling, anyplace else I could go or anything else I could look at to help me to do that better and be maybe make a more convincing case.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Yeah, so I think um the way I start up a lot, and you'll see this with my e-learning heroes challenges, is um what's great about the e-learning heroes challenges is you're completely unburdened by a senior leadership team, a brief, a client. It's completely it's a complete blank canvas. Um but but sometimes my way into those challenges is is is a pun, a play on words from from either the title of the challenge, the topic of the challenge, and that gives you a kind of often unboxes, uh reveals uh a story. Um and word association exercises, I think, are really easy way to get into um you know that kind of dad joke, punnery, which can then kind of unlock a theme, a story, characters, um, and I I and and don't be afraid to to play around with that. Um you can be you can be quite um on the nose sometimes when it comes to using puns, and the worst reaction you're gonna get is a groan. Other people you're gonna get a chuckle out of it, but again, you're kind of the the play on words often works because double meanings then kind of become they become sticky, as Julie Deluxeon would say, you know, in learning terms. It's sticky. You you're you're being asked to integrate two meanings at the same time, which is ultimately what we're doing with a lot of training content. We're asking people to integrate new information with what they already know, particularly as adult learners. So Punnery and Wordplay is a really great place to start. Um, so um there are lots of uh this is very UK specific, but I think you can probably find it outside of outside of the UK. There are lots of great radio for comedy programs in in the UK. Um, and um often they are panel game shows. One is called I'm Sorry, I haven't a clue, which is heavily around wordplay. And because it's because it's a a podcast, it's a radio show, there's no visual, um, the pictures that people paint with words, um, listening to comics do that on a regular basis, um, and being prepared to get a few groans from the audience, you know, there's always going to be a couple of groans here and there, but when they strike gold, it's really, really good. And there's a round in in that show in particular called the Uxbridge English Dictionary, where they give alternative meanings for existing words, which is really, really funny. Um, and uh there may be a US equivalence, um, I I'm not aware of this, but that kind of comedy um where you perhaps listening to the way people use words um is is is for has been for me the the way into it. Um, and then of course visual comedy is is really big as well. Uh I mean I I I grew up on a staple diet of Monty Python, and one of the things I really loved in that was the animations that Terry Gilliam used to put in between the sketches as well. Um so sometimes you know silly imagery can work as well, um, and silly things happening to silly people ultimately. Um so you've got a character in an e-learning course, he's made a series of really poor decisions, he's not going to be compliant. What's the what's the most comical outcome that can happen to him or her to illustrate that this person should have behaved better? Um and like I say, that journey for me often begins with a little bit of wordplay.

Jonathan’s final take

SPEAKER_00 34:28

So as we like to end our wrap up our shows, we always give our our guests a chance to give their their final take, a short, quick answer to kind of summarize everything we've talked about. So, Jonathan Hill, what is your final take?

SPEAKER_01 34:41

My final take is that there's a place for personality in learning and development. There's a particularly a place for personality in e-learning, and if you do it in the right way, you can create warm, engaging experiences which stand in contrast to this very uh regular diet of boilerplate, compliance-y, click next-ty content. And I think if you can find that space and find that voice, there's very powerful results to be had.

Outro

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Perfect. Thank you, Jonathan Hill. It's been a pleasure to talk with you and go out and connect with him. Go go find him, send him some Legos, maybe. I don't know. He can't afford them anymore, but he he he could use them. So want to thank you again, Jonathan Hill, for joining me. And we want to thank everybody for joining us as always for every week. If you've made it this far, thank you so much for listening. We always like it if you like it, subscribe, or leave comments so we know what you're finding helpful and useful. And of course, we'd like to wrap up the show the way we always do. Wherever you are and whatever you're doing, we hope you find a little time to level up. Thanks, everybody.