SPEAKER_00

It sounds great, right? Sciencey, sounds sciencey, sounds helpful, healthy. You know, anything biotic sounds pretty good, right?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, like that's a something biotic. Very, very catchy terminology.

SPEAKER_00

The trouble is, is that there was no there was no real explanation. And it and probiotics rather than prebiotics or postbiotics has just become the central focus.

SPEAKER_02

And when used too long and overused, they're actually causing competition and causing more of an imbalance and more of a negative influence on gut health.

SPEAKER_00

Together, an industry disruptor and renowned veterinarian discuss and debate, establish norms and new ideas in the pet world.

SPEAKER_02

This is challenging pet health. Hello, Casey. Why, hello, with my best. That was a terrible UK attempt.

SPEAKER_00

Really? Shall I talk American? Well, hi there, Miss Katie. How are you doing? How are you all doing today?

SPEAKER_02

My hottie partner. That was kind of a little John Wayne.

SPEAKER_00

Well, howdy. Well howder. Here damn in Louisiana. We're all a big fan of Dr. Katie King's.

unknown

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02

Hey dude, what's up?

SPEAKER_00

Hey dude, what's up?

SPEAKER_02

It's beautiful today, and we're ready to have a phenomenal conversation. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

As always. One thing that has annoyed me for a while is um everybody using probiotics in absolutely everything, and people just seeing it as like this wonderful catchal product. That if your dog's got like a dodgy stomach, or you know, like it's got loose toilets or anything really.

SPEAKER_02

Loose toilets. Does that mean like as in like loose stools and diarrhea?

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. Everything from that to my dog's just not feeling well, or do you know what? I just like the idea of better gut health, like people just using probiotics for everything.

SPEAKER_02

Everything, yeah, continuously and constantly. And that is definitely a uh a little pet peeve of mine, too. So it's a great topic to touch on today.

SPEAKER_00

One thing people don't understand a lot of the time is the difference between pre-pro and postbiotics.

SPEAKER_02

Perfect place to start.

SPEAKER_00

The way I would describe it is like prebiotics are about feeding the good bacteria in the gut.

SPEAKER_02

Yep. Prebiotics are fermentable fibers, essentially. So when we talk about fibers, people may hear of, you know, psilium, inulin, larch, and veggies and you know, those kinds of fibers. So a lot of people hear, you know, I should have more fiber in my diet, you know, for various reasons, but one of them is so that you have a healthy microbiome that can ferment those fibers.

SPEAKER_00

Probiotics are about putting new bacterial strains into the gut.

SPEAKER_02

The good guy bacteria that we want in our gut.

SPEAKER_00

And then postbiotics are about creating like the housing for a good culture.

SPEAKER_02

So postbiotics are what the probiotics, the good bacteria in the gut that we're relying on to keep us healthy, it's what they create. And namely some of the big postbiotic products that you know we focus on is short chain fatty acids, we call them. And these short chain fatty acids often are butyrate, propionate, and acetate. Postbiotics help strengthen the gut barrier, they help our immune system, they help the gut brain access, so our brain functions better. I mean, postbiotics are really freaking cool.

SPEAKER_00

I could be wrong. You probably know more than me, but I don't see um people using prebiotics continuously as anything other than the positive. And I see postbiotics being used in in in foods as genuinely beneficial.

SPEAKER_02

You mean the probiotics?

SPEAKER_00

No, postbiotics. Oh, post.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, yeah. I don't see those very oftenly used yet.

SPEAKER_00

Oh no, I would like so in Europe there's quite a few products which are using postbiotics.

SPEAKER_01

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_00

But I don't have a problem with those two things being used in in products. But probiotics I have I take serious issue with just not only the fact they're being used so carelessly, but also the fact that people don't understand what they are and they've kind of just entered the sort of like zeitgeist as this great thing to give.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

When it's actually the use cases are way more narrow.

SPEAKER_02

Yep, I completely agree that probiotics are essentially being overused, overdone, and as you said, overrelied on as being the end-all be-all, like, you know, just take probiotics and you know, you'll be healthier. You can make a case for using probiotics, of course, intermittently during or after a course of antibiotics. That makes sense. And quite frankly, I mean, there's research on the human side and the animal side with dogs and cats to show that if we are taking a probiotic product continuously for months to years on end, which most people do, especially when it's being put in foods and other products, and then sometimes people aren't even intentionally giving up probiotics, it's just in whatever they bought. A lot of times it is intentional. But point being, when this is going into the body every single day, month after month, year after year, it is out competing our own microbiome because it's using up all the resources, meaning the prebiotics, the food, and it's using up, quite frankly, the space in there. And probiotic products are generally designed to have billions of what we call CFUs, colony-forming units, to be more potent, you know, and partly because those, if you put billions of probiotics or bacterial organisms in there, it has to pass through the stomach acid and get to the lower gut and the colon where, you know, the probiotics are doing their work and their thing for our body. So they put these billions of colonies in there to not only survive to where they need to go, but also to just be high in numbers so that they can perform well. And the problem is that our own microbiome is so important. And instead of supporting our or our pet's microbiome to be better and more diverse and more healthy, we're just covering it up by throwing in lab-created probiotics. And believe me, these probiotics are friendly bacteria. They're good guys, you know, they're coming in and they're doing some good things. But when they're overtaking the whole show and they're out competing really important canine or feline-specific bacteria in their gut, then we end up with more of a microbiome imbalance. And they've shown that, you know, pets that are on these products continuously have more of an imbalance than pets who take no probiotics at all.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Like before you'd even go near a probiotic. Now, probiotics, again, you have like they have their use case. So if your dog's been on antibiotics, it and there's lots of different use cases for it, but it's always very short-term use cases. But all I see as like an industry person is just like this over obsession with it.

SPEAKER_02

That's true. When we first learned about the microbiome, you know, everybody understood that, oh my God, our back, you know, and there's like a book out there saying less than 10% human, which is so amazing. I mean, our bodies are literally like our bacteria in our bodies outnumber our number of cells by like 90% bacteria, 10% human cells. So even just to define the word microbiome for people, and this discussion might be a worthy thing, is that our microbiome is basically an ecosystem in our bodies that is teeming with beneficial organisms, which again can be beyond bacteria, but a lot of bacteria. And every system in the body has its own microbiome. Like our sinuses and respiratory tract have micro, their, you know, this microbiome. Um, you know, our gut has a microbiome, our skin has a microbiome, etc. So there's a lot of different, you know, systems of microbiomes. But um the gut microbiome obviously takes such a central focus because our gut health is the center of our health. And this is where this huge, as soon as we learned about how important the microbiome is, everybody latched on to probiotics are you know the end all be all, and let's take them every day.

SPEAKER_00

The probiotics we use when we buy products, they are not the same probiotics that naturally occur in the stomach.

SPEAKER_02

Right, in the gut, yep.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So they're they're things that like the probiotics we use, and like in I don't know what the regulation here is in the US, but in the UK, there's only five different strains we're actually allowed to use in in probiotic products. It's it's probably a bit looser in America to be fair, but they're all aerobically grown, which means they're grown like outside with air with oxygen around.

SPEAKER_02

With oxygen, exactly. So they're oxygen loving or using bacteria.

SPEAKER_00

Naturally occurring probiotics in the stomach are anaerobically created. So again, just structurally different. And so what we what we should always be looking to do is feed and look after what's in there and make the natural probiotics thrive. Because what we're doing is we're we're really putting a foreign entity, and whether it's a good entity or a bad entity, it would not naturally occur within the within the microbiome. As you were saying, the problem is is that if you just keep firing them in, you can end up with a monoculture of something which isn't native to the stomach, or native to the uh to the gut microbiome. And so what people are doing by this continuous use of probiotics is actually not not only are they not helping, it can go the other way.

SPEAKER_02

Right. You can cause a big imbalance and more of a problem, quite quite frankly. And it's nice to give people a little bit of a clarity around this that if yourself or your pet are struggling with loose toilets, diarrhea, that if you're struggling with that, if you put in some good guy bacteria, even though they're not native normally to your system, if they're a good guy, you know, helping out, you can have purpose in that. I've had plenty of pet parents through the years that are like, oh yeah, I started a probiotic and that helped. Great. That is a short-term influence. And I'm not against a short-term influence to help, you know, but what people don't understand or misunderstand, at some point when we keep consistently using it, it's actually causing a negative, you know, influence rather than a temporary helping influence. So that's where I think the real misunderstanding lies is people think more is better. And, you know, I'm all about selective probiotic use, you know, intentional use, using it intermittently when it makes sense. I mean, a lot of people are used to using for themselves or their pets, using a pro probiotic during or after a course of antibiotics to help, you know, because we know that those probiotics are gonna, you know, those naturally bacteria in our gut are gonna take a hit when we go on antibiotics, obviously. And so people are taking some to help the gut while the antibiotics are squashing, you know, your bacteria. The problem is they're not forming new populations in your gut. So when we take antibiotics or our pets are on antibiotics, it obliterates good bacteria. When we take probiotics, it's not rebuilding our microbiome. Those beneficial bacteria that are in a probiotic product are just passing through. So they are doing some good work while they're there and they're in and out within three days. And in fact, one of the reasons why I know that um is because I do a lot of microbiome testing for my patients, and that's a stool, you know, gut microbiome test. So we get an assay back of all the different uh groups of bacteria in that pet stool, so we know if they have an imbalance of bacteria or an overgrowth of harmful bacteria. And that's one of the treatment strategies of helping a pet get healthier and having a healthier gut. But the the microbiome testing on the stool test kit says, you know, specifically in the directions, please stop all probiotics three days before you collect the stool sample to send it out to the lab because they want to make sure that their assay testing of that pet's microbiome is reflective of the true residential population of the gut, not what's just passing through every day in their product. And within three days of not giving a probiotic, all those bugs that you were giving them are in and out, they're gone. And they're not creating or replacing anybody's microbiome. And when used too long and overused, they're actually um causing competition and causing more of an imbalance and more of a negative influence on gut health.

SPEAKER_00

So, where do you think the whole thing came from? So I I have a theory that I blame sort of uh uh some people from a few years ago who who were like big podcasters and educators who literally were just talking about the gut microbiome. And the the conversation of the gut microbiome has ramped up in the last few years enormously. Like no one used to talk about it much, but I feel like it's one of those things that it's a very complex issue, and I think that some of the people who were talking about initially were there's just oversimplifying everything, and it was sort of like oh, you know, I drink kefir yoga and I, you know, raw goat's milk and all this sort of stuff. Natural, there's natural probiotics and blah blah blah. And it sounds great, right? Sciencey, sounds sciencey, it sounds helpful, healthy. You know, anything biotic sounds pretty good, right?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, like that's a something biotic. Very, very catchy terminology right off the back.

SPEAKER_00

It sounds like it's gonna restore balance and it's gonna the trouble is, is I just feel like there was no due diligence but done by everyone. It was sort of like, oh, you want a healthy gut, you need healthy, healthy probiotics in your stomach, and there's loads of people who don't have those things, whip some kefir down your throat or some royal goat's milk, and Bob's your uncle, and you know, you're you're now suddenly like a super healthy person with a functioning gut biome, and you're gonna be mentally happier, and you're gonna you're gonna digest your food easier, and every life is gonna be fantastic. But the trouble is is that there was no there was no real explanation, and it and probiotics rather than prebiotics or postbiotics has just become the central focus because again, it's like talking about diarrhoea in dogs. Like, one of the most important things I always say to people is to start with a prebiotic, like you know, something like a pumpkin powder, like a high fiber, good fiber, prebiotics.

SPEAKER_02

The good bacteria to allow them to flourish naturally, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Like before you'd even go near a probiotic. Now, probiotics, there's lots of different use cases for it, but it's always very short-term use cases. But all I see as like an industry person is just like this over like over obsession with it.

SPEAKER_02

It's true. We latched the whole medical community latched onto it. And let's be clear, it's a big money maker product. So then the whole supplement industry latched onto that too. And like you said, I mean, probiotics are such a competitive product now because they're everywhere. Um, and I, like you, have some real concerns about manufacturers putting it in everything. So, to me, like we've had other discussions about my love for digestive enzymes. It's one of the supplement products that I think is so valuable for pets and humans so that we digest our food better, our foods are more bioavailable to us, we, you know, have less inflammation in our GI tract, and digestive enzymes can serve so many good purposes. There are so many good pet product brands on the market that add probiotics to their digestive enzyme blend at surface level, it makes sense. Okay, you know, it's for the digestive tract, and we know these good bacteria are, you know, helpful in the digestive tract, but I think it's also because they know people will buy it if they see that there's probiotics in it. So it's this this big buzzword and attractive, you know, piece of it. And I'm seriously having trouble finding why I'm gonna create my own digestive enzyme in my product line. Um, but it's difficult to find a digestive enzyme blend these days that doesn't have probiotics added to it. And digestive enzymes are something I like to promote for people to give on an ongoing basis. And I really want to help people steer away from overuse of probiotics on an ongoing basis. So I love when they separate them out and we use them intentionally and not overdone, which I know is what is annoying you as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I and again, it's like it's first of all, it's people flushing their money down the toilet, to be honest. Like, because that's what that's what's happening, is that you're using something in a use case where it doesn't make sense. But then also when we look at the products that are having it, like the the method of delivery, also on the plus side, which is almost like a plus side for the for like long-term usage, but not a plus side for people who are paying money for it, is that you know, if you're putting it into a tablet or you're putting it into a dry component, a lot of the probiotics that are put in will not survive that whole process.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. One of the reasons why they put 20 billion CFUs or whatever it is into a product so that at least some of them have a higher likelihood of making it to the lower GI tract where they're gonna do their work. So, but you are right, I mean, a lot of them don't survive. However, there is one specific probiotic strain that does have a lot of clinical value or health value and definitely worthy to talk about this particular probiotic, and it is called Sacchromyces Balardi. And a lot of people call it S. Balardi, S. period Ballardi for short. You can find it everywhere, it's everywhere now, um, available, you know, in many, many brands. Um, Sacchomyces billardi is a unique probiotic because it actually is actually not a bacterial strain, it's a yeast organism. And so interestingly, what we now know in the medical space is that Sacromyces Balardi or S. Bilardi does not compete with good guy bacteria. So we've talked a lot about how all these probiotics are competing with the good guys and we're dampening out and we're causing problems. bilardi does not compete with them, but it does compete with some bad guy bacteria. So most of the GI experts on the human side and the veterinary side are now supporting the use of Sacromyces Balardi, Espolardi, um, very differently than they would be of um probiotics that could be competitive.

SPEAKER_00

But would you say espirardi is something that can be used long term?

SPEAKER_02

A lot of the experts, again, on the human and veterinary side, I say pretty plugged into this. I've seen lots of lectures, lots of, you know, educational pieces on it. And most people are saying this absolutely can be used long term. I still, because I err on the not overusing anything, I tell people that I'm not, I'm not totally against using it long term, but I still would err on only using it intermittently or when needed, and then go from there and see if it's something that we should keep up. So from a marketing perspective, because you have a big background and a lot of opinions on that. What is your opinion on the um trending now for some products in the pet supplement space to be including and advertising for canine-specific strains?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's it's something that's um better just because it's a better monostrain, it's still a monostrain. So I I'd like for me from a marketing perspective, look, if I was selling them, I would a hundred percent be on the it's canine specific. This is so much better than this. But from a from like a realistic sp view, I still don't like either of them.

SPEAKER_02

So health-wise, for dogs and cats, it makes sense to to use those when you do use them, but it still makes sense from a health perspective to not overuse them continuously.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. And and just to clarify, when I'm talking about probiotics, I'm talking about um consumable probiotics, not things like ingenious probiotics, like the sprays, that sort of stuff, where um like where you know things to help good bacteria, let's say, um, help with healing or with ear infections and that sort of stuff. Because again, like the whole whole body is a series of my of microbiomes. Um, but it like when we're talking about commonly understood probiotics and commonly understood like microbiome, which we're helping, we're talking about the sort of the gut flora and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, and I'm glad you made that distinction because the products you're talking about, I'm very familiar and do appreciate those products where they're created with bacteria that are using up the resources that bad bacteria need and would use. These are topical products that can be used on the skin, you know, in the ears, it's in the environment that are naturally getting rid of bad bacteria. Like what a great concept. But like you said, these are not consumable probiotics that we're putting into our gut and out competing other things, so there's a distinction there. And then the other part of this topic that I would love to touch on that is a distinction too, is consuming natural foods that offer our bodies probiotics, like fermented foods. And of course, every culture, every traditional culture around the world had their, you know, age-old uh uses of fermented foods. So we know that fermented foods were developed by you know our ancestors for a purpose. I mean, to to store the fur food and preserve it. Fermentation is beautiful for that, but it's also supporting our body's microbiome system in a much more natural way without competing and without being lab you know made and not natural for our systems to to have.

SPEAKER_00

But but again, it's because when you're eating a fermented food, there is um bacterial variety, is the important thing. Whereas when you're buying a probiotic supplement, there isn't.

SPEAKER_02

And that is my love that you brought that in. That is so true. And some products just have one, like you said, one species that's highlighted in there at extreme amounts. Um, other products may have two, three, maybe up to five, but generally, as you said, so true, there's very little diversity in typical probiotic products. There's high potency, meaning there's tons and billions of these organisms, but no diversity. And so we're out competing. A very healthy microbiome is known to be very diverse. And so, even with feeding pets, if we're feeding the same thing to them every day without variety, the microbiome is naturally gonna narrow because certain bugs feed off of certain groups of foods and things, and so the more diverse our diet, the more diverse our microbiome can be, which is better for our immune system and our gut health and our brain health and everything else.

SPEAKER_00

And look, even when I'm recommending prebiotics, it's always things like whole foods, like like pumpkin powder, or you can get it from like let's say things like rabbit fur, like from the treats. There's lots of natural ways you can like and a diversity of prebiotics you can you can sort of find. And again, because they are natural products, they're whole food products, you can like like say there's more than one function behind it. Yeah, and I think this is always the problem when you just still anything down to you know isolated strains and then just fire it in. Yeah. Number one, I don't think it like it works all that su uh that successfully, but number two, it like yeah, it causes problems if overused.

SPEAKER_02

Well said.

SPEAKER_00

That's what I do.