SPEAKER_00

A lot of pet parents uh that have pets with potential kidney issues are finding out about cordyceps as well. So super great one. Cordyceps. Get some for yourself. You will perform better.

SPEAKER_01

No, no. She said I'm not performing well at the moment.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, it's um together, an industry disruptor.

SPEAKER_01

And renowned veterinarian discuss and debate established norms and new ideas in the pet world.

SPEAKER_00

This is challenging pet health.

SPEAKER_01

Dr. Katie, how are you today? Looking looking phenomenal today.

SPEAKER_00

Well, thank you so much. Tried to wear something with some plants to talk about some of the plant-based supplements that we might get into today.

SPEAKER_01

Ah, very impressive. And uh, you know, no, no. I obviously didn't put that level of effort into my clothing. So I I now feel slightly underdressed, but you know, we'll we'll get there. You look phenomenal as well. So we're talking about plant-based supplements. So let's talk about the thing which is probably one of the hottest sort of new topics in the last year or two, and that's mushrooms.

SPEAKER_00

Love it. So medicinal mushrooms, obviously a fungi, which is a plant. So in the plant-based stuff, and a very popular supplement.

SPEAKER_01

There's a lot of different types of mushrooms out there. Um I think we should probably just limit it to, let's say, the four most commonly talked about ones. So turkey tail, lion's mane, raishi, and cordyceps. So, what's your like clinical experience of mushrooms and what's what's your opinions of them generally?

SPEAKER_00

Well, speaking from you know, being an integrated veterinarian, having a lot of rooted training and expertise in Chinese medicine and acupuncture, I will just start off by saying that medicinal mushrooms date back to ancient Chinese, you know, herbal therapies. And if you look at Chinese herbal formulas, the vast majority of them have one or more medicinal mushrooms in them. And maybe we should back up and just clarify for everyone, because everyone likes to make jokes about magic mushrooms. So let's just say that the medicinal mushrooms are not the extra magic, they are magic. They're magic medicinally for the body health-wise, but they're not the magic ones that have the psychotropic effects.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, the psilocybin. So we're not talking about the trippin'.

SPEAKER_00

Which are therapeutic as well. They're using those for a lot of different therapies in humans, and that's exciting, but a whole different topic.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, yeah, you got a lot of microdosing and that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. But today I really want to dig into the standard medicinal mushrooms that are you that can be eaten. We can talk about, you know, the difference between the culinary, you know, mushrooms that we're eating versus the mushroom products and supplements that are out there. But there's so many types between, you know, powders, capsules, tinctures, extracts, and there's so many supplements that are combination things or including mushrooms. So one of the components in mushrooms that is so powerful is a natural type of a special fiber called beta glucans. Beta glucans are a superstar. People talk about them all the time in mushrooms because they are widely known to support immune function. And they directly support the white blood cells function in the immune system, but they also support gut health and the microbiome, which is such a big part, rooted part of our immune system. Each of the mushrooms we're going to cover today, and all the mushrooms, have their specific little nuances of health benefits that they do. But there's a lot of crossover, and they're so beneficial that generally I like to recommend either rotating mushrooms or using a blend so that you get, you know, sort of the comprehensive benefits, you know, through throughout all the different types of mushrooms. But obviously, there's very different health situations where a targeted choice, you know, might be appropriate.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So okay, let's start with probably I think the the biggest one, which is lion's mane and what that does. And um, yeah, and also under what circumstances you would recommend each of these mushrooms.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I mean I would say they're all big. It's not the biggest one, but it is one that a lot of humans seek out lion's mane, because it's known to help with memory, cognition, concentration, etc. So lion's mane, you know, definitely for pets, if they're aging, if they're starting to get maybe some dementia or some cognition issues. The other great thing about lion's mane, though, is it actually has been shown to help nerve regeneration. So we're talking anything with the nervous system. So even pets with seizures, like you could think, you know, lion's mane, nervous system, or pets with, you know, um disc problems or spinal problems where maybe there's some nerves being impacted or degenerating, et cetera. Um, lion's mane is a superstar for anything with nerve and brain. Um, that said, um, I did some lectures recently on gut health, and lo and behold, lion's mane very specifically helps gut too. So it's a big one.

SPEAKER_01

What about turkey tail? Because again, turkey tail is one of those things that like I see it being recommended for dogs with cancer a lot.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. Yep. So I would say turkey tail is probably the most widely studied. Um, it's been the most, I think, published studied as far as immune system support. So when people think of turkey tail, they think immune. But again, it has other benefits for the gut and and other things. Um, but it I think it's the one that is most promoted for pets. So when people are looking at mushroom supplements, turkey tail is is, you know, really out there in a lot of pet supplements. And veterinary oncologists, cancer specialists are, I love it, recommending this, you know, plant-based food that ancient herbal medicine's been recommending for a long time. And now it's hit the scene in modern conventional medicine. Turkey tail is widely known and recommended for immune support and cancer support.

SPEAKER_01

And the other two, Raishi.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so Reishi really dates back into, you know, Chinese medicine. It's in a lot of Chinese herbal formulas, and Rishi's often been called, you know, the mushroom of um longevity, um, helps us age better, certainly helps the gut, and and all the, you know, we can kind of go through the constituents of each, you know, of all the mushrooms that really get into gut health. But um, a lot of people would use Rishi for their pets for calming. You know, Reishi is an adaptogen. Um, adaptogens are uh is a is a term that's used to describe um, you know, plants or natural items that help the body to adapt to stressors, you know, helping the adrenal glands and, you know, the body's nervous system to adapt um in an appropriate way. So raisia is known to be an adaptogen, helps support calming and balanced mood.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and cordyceps. I love cordyceps.

SPEAKER_00

Quite frankly, that could be if I had to pick a personal favorite, I love all mushrooms, all these medicinal mushrooms. But I would have to say personally, I am so in love with cordyceps. And I rotate through them, but right now I'm taking cordyceps and I'll usually rotate or I'll have a blend. Um, but cordyceps is really a superstar with stamina energy um athletic performance. So it'll show up in a lot of athletic type supplements. They give it to racehorses so they can race better, um, performance dogs, etc. What cordyceps does is it helps the body oxygenate better. It helps the lungs, the bronchioles in the lungs to absorb oxygen even better. So you're oxygenating your tissues, which is phenomenal for stamina and energy. So that's a really lovely one. So anybody with any cardiovascular issues, any pulmonary, lung, respiratory, you know, asthma, bronchitis, cordyceps is a superstar. Cordyceps is also an adaptogen. And some newer data coming out is cordyceps is really good for kidneys too. And it's shown to um help reduce um elevated kidney levels in pets with or people with kidney problems. So a lot of pet parents uh that have pets with potential kidney issues are finding out about cordyceps as well. So super great one. Get some for yourself. You will perform better.

SPEAKER_01

Oh well, no. Okay, so with the pet industry, like what one thing we always have to be very aware of is are we getting what we're getting in the right amounts for the right money and that sort of stuff. So when you like recommend people like people feed them to their pets, like you got capsules, you have blends, you have powders, and choose now too. And choose. What what is the the way you personally would recommend that people buy their mushrooms?

SPEAKER_00

You know what? I I don't think there's there's one right one to necessarily always lean into. Each of those formats of how mushrooms can be taken has its assets. And so uh powders are its full form. I mean, it's really like eating the concentrated mushroom, you know, because the powder hasn't lost anything. So it's got all the constituents in, you know, in a powder form, or maybe some of the extracts we'll talk about, you know, there's certain things that you might lose out of it, like the fibers. But the thing with powders is some mushrooms are pretty palatable, some are not so much. Like rishi, really super bitter, doesn't taste very good. So you mix a bunch of reishi powder into a pet food. If you have like a lab who is so food motivated, they won't care. But a lot of pets, you try mixing rashi in the food and they're not going to eat their food.

SPEAKER_01

I think what you find actually a lot is that you'll get from a palatability standpoint, is you'll get a lot of people mixing, let's say, a turkey tail or reishi with something like shiitake, because shiitake is quite umami in taste. So if you're producing this quite what taste? Umami.

SPEAKER_00

Umami. Oh, umami, got it.

SPEAKER_01

Like that little salty like appealing flavor. Yeah, so like for example, cats love that umami taste, that's all like very sort of meaty kind of yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um but yeah, so people will mix will put shiitake in as like as like one of the main products and then add small amounts in, uh, but still sort of market it as a um a product which is a mushroom product.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

But actually, like shiitake in terms of health benefits, there's health benefits to shiit. Oh, absolutely. There is health benefits to shiitake, but it's mainly the palatability driver because a lot of the mushrooms don't taste good.

SPEAKER_00

Ah. So again, it's about it is good immune support too, but as you're saying, it's often in the pet space, it's used more for a palatability addition rather than necessarily targeted the you know, functions of the mushroom. Yeah. It's also worth saying that, of course, shiitake is one that's a common culinary mushroom. Yeah. You know, oftentimes in the store we see for ourselves you know, the criminal mushrooms and the regular, you know, white button mushroom type stuff, but you can easily find shiitake in a grocery store because, like you said, it's yummy. So um, and one thing I could tag on to that with culinary mushrooms, meaning the food that we're gonna eat, is that there are a lot of pet parents that are either, you know, making food for their pets or, you know, adding foods into their pets' diet that add cooked mushrooms, which is great. But we can talk about the difference of what cooked mushrooms can bring to the body versus what mushroom supplements.

SPEAKER_01

Let's just make the the it clear because again, a medicinal mushroom price-wise is phenomenally more expensive than a culinary mushroom. It's not that culinary mushrooms aren't good, but when you're paying a lot of money for something, to find out you've got a load of, let's say, flavor enhancers in there, probably you have to then sort of like re-recalibrate what you're paying for that product.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And, you know, and speaking of sort of cost effectiveness of things, when people buy fresh mushrooms and cook them and eat them for themselves or make them for their pets, still high health value, of course. I mean, a lot of herbal experts and mushroom experts are like, eat mushrooms every day. I mean, a lot of cultures around the world do, and they're healthier for it. So eating mushrooms is clearly a good thing. However, when we really want to get a lot of medicinal impact out of mushrooms, we all know when you cook mushrooms, you start out with a big old batch, you know, in your pan and it cooks down to like these, because 70% of it is like water. So think of it in contrast to a supplement, whether it's powdered or extract or whatever, it's a lot more concentrated. So when you're really taking it as a supplement for medicinal value, a supplement is going to be more concentrated than just eating mushrooms.

SPEAKER_01

And just to put it into an even more extreme term, you have like the powders and then you have the extracts, because again, the powder is the whole mushroom ground, whereas the extract is the extracts of what you're seen as being the medicinal parts of that mushroom. There's a there's a lot of talk about again mushroom powders having yeah, like the cell walls being made of chitin, and like dogs only have like a limited amount of chitinase in their body, so right, to digest, right, the enzyme to digest the cell walls, the chitin. Yeah, and so yeah, can they get as much of that extract through the powder as they need or as what you would expect to get from from the mushroom? Whereas with extract there is no barrier to to you know to absorption. And look, there's benefits to the cayenne, it's it's fiber, it's right. That's what I was just gonna say. It does have some benefits. It does have some benefits, but again, it depends on why you're using the product. Exactly. And also realizing that extract is a much more expensive product than powder.

SPEAKER_00

And it's my understanding that when it's made into an extract, there are a lot of there are some things that can be potentiated from an extract. So maybe they're even a little more bioavailable in an extract form, but on the flip side of that, there's some things that are lost out of an extract that you don't get that you would get in a powder. So again, it's a little bit of a trade-off, and they might, you know, whether it's a finicky pet, you know, some pets are easier to get a liquid in. You know, some pets might be fine with powder. So there's different reasons that you might choose one over the other for just feasibility of it. It's my understanding that some of the things that might be at the biggest strengths in an extract would be the immune supportive properties, as opposed to, you know, maybe the gut supportive and you know, some of the other things that are really touted for mushrooms.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's it's the medically um aimed part of the mushroom, which is where the extracts sit rather than the overall.

SPEAKER_00

But I think they do what, a hot either a hot water extract or an alcohol extract, or I think there's dual extract where you use both. And I guess I will just tag on to the hot water thing, and maybe you can speak to how the extracts are made, because that's a little bit out of my wheelhouse. But I do understand, and I've known this for years, that um, which is a fun concept to let everybody know about, is that when mushrooms are heated, they do become more bioavailable and medicinal. So eating a raw mushroom doesn't give us or our pets nearly as much benefit as cooked. So when they are made into extracts, I know there's like hot water extracts, et cetera, but um, the heating process can be a very beneficial piece of you know, making the product healthy.

SPEAKER_01

And and one thing I would say as well is that uh there's always a question over if because again you get mushroom tinctures as well. And again, there's I've heard a lot of and look, I'm not an expert on this, but uh of people saying you can't effectively test the amount of beta glucans in a in a tincture in a tincture, and um and that actually like the alcohol in like or the alcohol processing of mushrooms into tinctures can damage the beta glucans or make them not bioavailable. So look, I I'm not an expert on this, but I've spoken to people who who who assure me this is the case, but you know, again, I think there's still a lot of studies which need to be done. Like I've seen studies, and again, some people will say there's loads of studies on powders, not so much on extracts. So we we know there's a lot more use usages for the extracts, but you know, these have been done, the studies have been done on humans, not so much on pets, and because this is a very new field and it is quickly evolving. Um, sometimes, like, we yeah, things can get caught in the wash a little bit, to be honest. And also it makes it hard for the consumer to actually look at because if you look at turkey tail, okay, you got turkey tail powder, you got turkey tail extract, you got turkey tail chews, you got turkey tail tincture, you got turkey tail like what the hell am I even buying? Right like what like what is actually gonna have that like strong use case, right? And again, this is why knowing why you're buying something and then lining it up best you can against what that thing is.

SPEAKER_00

Now, what would you say is the difference between an extract and a tincture? Because I thought that was the same thing.

SPEAKER_01

No, so extract is still a powder.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, okay. Because I'm thinking that we're extracting it into a liquid form. No, it's so if you have an extract that would be different from a powder in that you're extracting certain things out of it. Yeah, almost like potentiating it or concentrating it in some way, yeah. And that would be different than just a whole food powder where it's just you know all of all of the components of the mushroom.

SPEAKER_01

So they they literally they can break it so that you just you just you just remove the the those that parts of the mushroom. Okay, which again, because of the the cell walls, because of the kite and because of the bioavailability, that actually when you you can actually remove that extract into into a powder. And this is where the difference between mushroom powder and mushroom extract can become confusing.

SPEAKER_00

Does the package say mushroom extract powder?

SPEAKER_01

It it should say either mushroom powder or mushroom extract. Okay, like it should there should there is a and there is a difference. And that it is important to know that if you are buying a mushroom powder, you're not buying an extract. And so let's say if you are buying it strictly for those medical reasons, uh rather than um the whole body approach to it.

SPEAKER_00

And also, look, the the size of the grind matters as well, because again, because you know, dogs struggle to break down the the cell walls and the kite and actually getting it ground as finely as possible is also important because again it helps for the bioavailability and yeah, you know, we listed several things that mushrooms can do, but maybe we can expand on that a little bit by um, you know, including the categories of how you know gut health or other areas of health are being affected, because I don't know that we specifically mentioned that mushrooms, the fibers in mushrooms are prebiotics. Yeah. And, you know, we had that previous episode um where we talked about microbiome and prebiotics being such an important piece of supporting the microbiome because prebiotics are, of course, the fibers, the fermentable fibers that the microbiome bugs feed on. So that is supporting the microbiome with these prebiotics. Mushrooms are superstars for that. Um, they also, you know, the the polysaccharides are part of that and the the beta glucans, but they also have polyphenols and antioxidants, really helpful.

SPEAKER_01

But one thing I would say is because of the price of medicinal mushrooms, that while there is a a like you know, a prebiotic benefit to to the kitin and that sort of stuff, you're still paying a lot of money for it. For a prebiotic thing, yeah. There's a lot of weight, there's a lot of different versions of prebiotics. And I think with mushrooms, you should have, in my opinion, some powder in with some extract. Because if you are looking for a particularly medicinal uh mix, and I do think that where the industry is so new, a lot of the problem I see with with the whole mushroom thing is a lot of it is more marketing than it is use case, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00

And so the I almost got the sense that you are saying, like, if somebody's really going for a prebiotic, there's more cost-effective prebiotics like pumpkin powder, etc. However, I mean, my take on that may be a little different, is that I am such a fan of mushrooms. Yeah, I would really love to see mushrooms in everyone's daily regimen. Truly, I mean, it's so linked to longevity. There's so many health things that if you are gaining some good prebiotics out of them, it's nice that you're getting several quality things in. And it's not like we're adding that. That's like nature's made prebiotics. It's not like we're just throwing extra stuff in this product to make it to sell it as a prebiotic. It is already. And a lot of mushroom experts are coming out with, you know, data and information that gut health benefits of mushrooms have been really underrecognized until recently. So even though their claim to fame and what we love them for so much is immune support and immune modulation, but you know, the gut health benefits are pretty rockin'. And, you know, gut health is such a cornerstone. I'm integrative. So I love gut health because it's so important. So mushrooms can support that in many ways.

SPEAKER_01

So, what's your opinion of, let's say, capsule capsules and chews?

SPEAKER_00

It's funny because I was gonna ask you your opinion of capsules. I uh and you can you can weigh in on this for me because I just learned, you know, the difference between maybe a straight up powder and an extract powder. So Nin. My head was going, okay, what's in my capsules that I take? Is that a full whole powder? Is that an extract powder? Um, I'm fine with, you know, just overall to answer your question. Um, I've used capsules in, you know, patients, of course, and in especially dogs, cats are a little more difficult for that. There are some mushrooms that are pretty palatable for cats. So there's mushroom um powder, you know, blends and stuff that are generally pretty, you know, easy to do for cats and their food. But for dogs, free powders or capsules, I've used those. I take capsules for myself. I also put them in smoothies and drink them in coffee, etc. Um, but chews, those are out, you know, and becoming more um popular too. And there's some really good quality mushroom brands for pets that are making chews. I am anytime I see a chew, I'm always looking, obviously with my background. Um, I'm always looking at the additives of what made it a chew. You know, what is in there? Is there canola oil in there? Is there, you know, a bunch of fillers and other stuff that we don't want? Um, you got to weigh out that convenience factor with, you know, maybe there's a few other ingredients in there that aren't like super, you know, optimal. Um, but a lot of pet parents love chews. They're easy. And uh, you know, so I think in a in a quality product situation, it has its value or its strengths, but you know, sometimes there's a little trade-off. What's what's your opinion on the chews?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I'll start off with capsules. I think capsules are a very expensive way of buying something functionally good because the cost difference between a powder and a capsule is is you know, you're paying as much for the capsuling as you are for the powder.

SPEAKER_00

Because it's a big process to put all the powder in the little capsules.

SPEAKER_01

Just from like a recommendation standpoint, I personally would always sort of say if you've got a way of using the powder, I get the capsules can be easier, but I do think, especially with pets, it's so much easier to mix things in with food. Yeah. And capsules don't do that. So I think for me, it's it's a convenience, but just uh be aware you're paying through the nose for it.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Um, for chews, I'm always very, very skeptical on anything which is supposed to be functional and a treat. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00

A healthy skepticism.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, because again, like look, everyone's different, but it and there I'm sure there are some good brands out there, but it also opens the door for a lot of bad brands.

SPEAKER_00

It is true. There's a lot of junk that can be hidden in a treat.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, 100%. 100%.

SPEAKER_00

Either don't read the label or they don't know what to but also how was it put together?

SPEAKER_01

Was it was it put together under heat process? Was it they also cost more the choice? Oh, gotcha.

SPEAKER_00

And and quite frankly, I like how cost conscious you are for, you know, our audience and and consumers, people listening, is that cost is a big deal, you know, uh in today's world for most everybody, but when you have multiple pets too, the price of something really comes into play of whether it's realistic for a pet parent to buy it in the first place or to keep up with it. So I love that you're giving people sort of that context of this could be really great, but it is pricier. And so your convenience factor, you know, you you sway in that into your price. But I also love that I think I got out of your chew, you know, assessment that your general recommendation would be unless your pet won't take it another way. If they won't take a capsule and they won't take a powder or a liquid extract and that's stressful or hassle or just can't be done, then maybe a chew and make it good quality. But if they would take it in another way, you'd say it's probably better than to gravitate to a chew.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, I mean, for me, I would use powder. Like that would be my my main recommendation. I think like a a chew is something which you would use as a benefit, but don't think you're changing the world with it. That would be that would be my because again, you're gonna be for what you're gonna be paying for what you're giving. My opinion is always if you want to give a chew, give a chew. Don't give a functional chew because functional chews are more marking than they are products generally. But that brings me on to sort of like fillers as well. Yeah, and like and look, with mushrooms, and first of all, all quality mushrooms come from China. Um Chinese medicine, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So they cultivated these and found the medicinal properties over centuries, so stands to reason.

SPEAKER_01

But with that comes the fact that there are multiple manufacturers of mushrooms in China. So again, like looking at brands that actually deal with the best, because again, using fillers in there is a good way of keeping the price down because look, people are price-sensitive, and it's not just the companies buying them and repacking them, it's also the factories as well.

SPEAKER_00

We're in the line of processing and creation is the f are the fillers being added. Like the mushrooms are grown, whatever the original source of who's growing the mushrooms and cultivating them, um, harvesting them, whatever. Then are they adding the fillers or do they sell them to the next distribution line?

SPEAKER_01

It can be added all across the any step during the chain. And again, that and like like I say, I mean, look, and if you create extracts, you're gonna have stuff left over, and that stuff can then be put into a more a more generic powder. Okay. And so you're taking the good stuff out, but then it's still mushrooms, so it still sends up a mushrooms, but then you've got less beer glucans, you've got less of the the the beneficial products, but then by the time it let's say gets to here, and the company that gets it buys it, they then buy it, and then they can go, well, okay, so I've got let's say turkey tail powder, that's X amount of money per per pound. But do you know what? Like, if I put I don't know 25% of another cheaper mushroom in there, uh, and and they and then if you're buying it per pound per kilo, the price is gonna be for that, and then a bunch of it is filler. And so, like, and how and how much of that, how much of that beneficial stuff is within the product. So, this is why you have to be so aware again, because again, these brands aren't just brands, like there's a reason why one brand is selling a product for $20, another one's selling it for 40.

SPEAKER_00

I love that you brought that up. And again, not everybody's budget can, you know, purchase the same things, but it is really good to know that oftentimes when something's priced that differently, there may be a good reason why. And this is just, you know, almost mind-blowing for me because I know all the medicinal and health benefits of it and I'm all jazzed up about, but I don't think at all about the processing, the manufacturing, the distribution, the product creation. And there's a whole lot of stuff going on behind the scenes that is not in my wheelhouse.

SPEAKER_01

And which is why people, when they look at these products, they need to look and say, right, okay, what are the active agents? What percentage do they appear in? And this is why I'll always push people towards the most rawest form of everything. So if you're if you're buying a powder, you want something that's a hundred percent that powder, nothing else in it, there might be some level of ca anti-caking agent or something, but you want it to be fine. Yeah, and be very questioning if somebody one product is cheaper because this is medicinal, and this is why by the time you extrapolate these things into chews, into capsules, you're just adding layers and layers of cost. So I'm you know, I would much rather see somebody who's on a budget say, Well, I'm actually going to buy the most expensive powder, which is ground in the most efficient way, so that you can actually line up all of those medicinal properties that you're paying for, because otherwise just go and buy a tin of mushrooms out of the shop and just have done with it in some ways, to be honest. And like literally, like look for the look for the clarity, look for the transparency. Because I'm you know, I'm a transparency obsessive, like, but again, look for the transparency from the company and actually question what's in the label. Because again, I've I've seen a company in the UK on TikTok, oh, turkey tail, we're doing turkey tail. Looked on it, it's like 55% turkey tail. Um and the rest is fillers, yeah, just other other cheaper mushrooms. Okay, and again, so and if they're already doing that, I guarantee you when they're buying it from source, they're not buying it from the best producer that's out there, they're probably buying it from the cheapest producer. Then it's so it's watered down at source, and then it's getting watered down again. So, how much actual benefit are you getting from that product? Right. And then you get that product and you go, it doesn't do anything. Yeah, sure, because it's garbage.

SPEAKER_00

Or yeah, diluted. But that might be different in contrast from like a blend that's marketed as a blend.

SPEAKER_01

Like this is uh blend blends are different because again, but again, look, with blends you still have to have that same still looking to make sure there's not fillers added, etc. And I think with blends it can be a little bit more difficult because it's harder to pinpoint what should be in there at what levels. So I think with blends, I would tend to I would tend to look at their regular straight products, make sure that they're doing the straight products correctly. Okay, and then probably you know, you can you can probably say that the blend is done correctly. I'm always a fan of letting them self-disclose if you're if you stand behind your product, it absolutely disclose what what you've got in that product, you know, like exactly the type of product that's in there. Because you can get these lab tests done. Like it's not it's again uh uh like people make lab tests sound like they are some kind of enormous ordeal. They're really not, just get things tested.

SPEAKER_00

So the manufacturer definitely has an affordable capability of getting these tests these things tested and being transparent.

SPEAKER_01

100%.

SPEAKER_00

Good to look for.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, Clayton, I am so happy we've had this conversation. Not only for all the pet parents listening, but quite frankly for me, I learned several things as I always do from you. And not only are you packed with so much knowledge in your background, but you are such a fun guy. Fun guy. Thanks everyone for watching. And if you enjoyed this and thought it was useful, please remember to like and subscribe and share with other people as well. For anyone you know who has pets and wants to learn a little bit more about how to care for them well.