Breaking Down Bone Broth

In this premiere episode, Dr. Katie and Clayton break down all things bone broth. The use of bone broth as a natural supplement has become so popular and most people know that bone broth has a lot of health and healing properties, but did you know there are differences in the benefits you get from different animal bones? Together these two experts discuss the different benefits of each type of bone broth so you can make better decisions about which is best for your pet, what to watch out for when buying broth, and the potential dangers in making it yourself. 

For more information on specific products Dr. Katie and Clayton recommend check out Dr. Katie's store at https://drkaties.com/

Check out Claytons podcast Pet Business Disrupters https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pet-business-disruptors/id1759599442

CREDITS

Executive Producer: Kathryn Rager

Producer: Jessica Leigh

Editor: Rob Bergsma

Social Media Manager: Shana Allan

Thanks to MaxLuxe Studios @maxluxmedia

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Anyone who says that we don't test because we're too small.

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Yeah. Not a good reason.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

No. Yeah. It's a bit like saying, well, we haven't had like hygiene tests in our in our restaurant because we're only a small mum and pop business. Like, no, think about that.

SPEAKER_03 0:18

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

You would you eat there?

SPEAKER_03 0:20

No, and it wouldn't fly. And it wouldn't fly with, you know, legal standards either. Together, an industry disruptor.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

And renowned veterinarian discuss and debate, establish norms and new ideas in the pet world.

SPEAKER_03 0:33

This is challenging pet health. Welcome to Challenging Pet Health. I'm Dr. Katie.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

I'm Glain, and this is the premier episode of our new podcast, which is about all things pet health.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

And I am so excited to be doing this podcast together. Of course, we both know that there are other podcasts out there that offer lots of great information and resources for people highlighting veterinarians and other industry professionals.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Yeah, I know what you mean. There's some great podcasts out there, like Pet Business Disruptors, you know, my podcast, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

Exactly. I was thinking the same thing. But I really think the two of us have something unique to bring to the table. And, you know, we're gonna have a lot of cutting edge and unique conversations that are really gonna bring a lot of new information and insights for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

And look between us, we've got m like more than seven decades within the pet industry, even though we both look like we're at maximum 30 each. And look, I think it's we can talk about things from a very deep knowledge base and uh really, really pull together my industry experience and your veterinary experience to give people a much more rounded picture of what's going on with their pet self.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Despite my younger appearance, I have more than 30 years of veterinary clinical experience. 20 years of that being as a special specialty veterinarian, holistic, integrative, and functional medicine.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Holistic, isn't that that woo-woo stuff?

SPEAKER_03 2:09

Um, well, not really, although we affectionately refer to ourselves as woo-woo on occasion, but holistic really means whole body approach. And so the tools that we utilize, of course, tend to be nutritional, you know, basis, food as medicine, um, herbal therapies, homeopathy, et cetera, as opposed to conventional medicine, which is typically focusing specifically on symptoms. I focus on functional medicine. We're looking at the body as a whole integrated functioning system that was designed with innate brilliance to be healthy, to stay in balance, to work in a balanced system. But truly I am integrative in that in my approach in supporting pet health, I combine regular conventional medicine strategies, surgery, sometimes medicines. I obviously very much put effort into avoiding the overuse of pharmaceuticals. But under certain circumstances, of course, we need our conventional medicine. So I am integrative in applying, you know, all of that together to support the body to function in a healthy manner.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

And from my end, I'm a I grew up in a pet store and I've been in the industry my whole life. So you know, from the from the 1980s to today. I've done everything from working in retail to manufacturing to running a distributor for more than 20 years as an industry consultant working on marketing. So literally a holistic pet industry guy is how I see myself.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Very integrate.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

But you know, I like I like to see the industry as a whole and really question what we're doing as an industry. So I'm very passionate about pushing the industry forward. And I like see me and Dr. Katie getting together as a great way to actually challenge each other as well as uh challenging health generally.

SPEAKER_03 4:00

I love it. And with your background, there is so much that we get to talk about together. There are gonna be so many unique conversations and cutting edge information we're gonna get into.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Every week we're gonna be looking at different things from marketing to challenging things which have happened in clinic to talking about products, to talking about food quality, to talking about appropriateness for what you're doing. Every week we're gonna have some new topic on the line, which is gonna be looked at from me, the industry lens, and from Katie, the veterinarian lens.

SPEAKER_03 4:34

We are going to have lots of great conversations with really giving everyone helpful tips each episode. Take home cookies that you're gonna be able to start using right away in supporting your pet's health. I am eager to get going. You ready? Let's get on with it.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

How's it going, Katie? Yeah, how's it been?

SPEAKER_03 4:54

It's fantastic. Things are going really great.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

I'm still like somewhere between UK time and and like plus eight for me at the moment.

SPEAKER_03 5:02

So a little bit of jet lag.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Yeah. Yeah. I tried staying up as late as possible last night, but yeah, it was it was rough.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

Well, we'll have to keep our conversation super fun to keep you awake.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Yeah, not 100%. Okay, so when you think about bone broth, what do you what do you think of? Obviously, I'm coming at this from quite a different angle to you because I'm uh a a massive critic of a lot of like companies' bone broths, and people have commented on various forums that I like can be quite scathing.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

As an integrated veterinarian, I've been telling people for years that my prescription list for your pet will start with food generally. And one of the foods that I love to promote is bone broth. I call it a healing potion. Like bone broth has so much benefits in it and the capacity to heal. And it date dates back to obviously ancestral, you know, humans were using this type of food way, way back to support health, obviously joints. But we know bone broth is on the top of the list of gut healing foods. I'm very into gut health and repairing gut health. And then through the years, so many of my clients have asked me, Dr. Katie, what's your favorite joint supplement? And my typical response is bone broth. I would rather offer a serving of bone broth or even two a day rather than buy most joint supplements in a jar that are in a powdered or capsule form. So I've been promoting bone broth for a long time, and I'm excited to talk to you about it because you have such a background in the production of it, you know, the manufacturing of it, and a lot of the sides that I don't know in supporting people to choose good quality bone broth.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

One thing people don't realize about bone broth is obviously different meats hold different collagen types. And so I don't know. Do you know much about the collagen types?

SPEAKER_03 6:52

Not really, although I think that fish, so I'm excited to hear, but like fish is different from the red meat and the poultry. I don't know. Poultry bones, obviously, are different from red meat bones is for hollow bones. But I really don't know the data behind that, just a little bit of surface level.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

So there's three types of collagen. So you've got type one, type two, and type three collagen. They all serve different functions, and each of the different products have like different um collagen types. Type one collagen, strength support. Okay. Type two is like joint support.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Okay, because we hear type two touted a lot in pet support, pet health products.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

But then type three is more like um reparative support. So when we talk about gut lining and we talk about regeneration and that sort of stuff, that's type three collagen. Okay, and they're all different, like so. Fish is type one, is primarily type one, has some type two, but it's primarily type one, and it's also marine collagen is is smaller peptides, it gets into the system easier, is and more bioavailable or easily bioavailable. More easily like processed. So that's marine collagen. So that's your type one, so it doesn't really have much in the way of type three.

SPEAKER_03 8:05

Okay. So if you're type one again is the strengthening those tissues.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

Type three is reparative to the tissue.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Yeah, so it doesn't really have type three. Okay. So it's so it's primarily type one with some type two. Okay. Poultry is primarily type two.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

With some type one, with but basically hardly any type three.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

And then red meat is primarily type three with some with quite a bit of type one, especially beef. Beef is very high in type one. So depending on what you're recommending it for. So when people say, oh, just give bone broth and it does gut and it does joints and it does well, actually, it depends on what you're looking at.

SPEAKER_03 8:46

And which one would be the best one for gut?

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Oh, type three. Okay, repair it. So venison, lamb, beef, all very, very good for gut. Um, also very good for strength support. But again, um, if you're looking for just as a joint product, you should really be looking for type two. So poultry bones.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

That's why it's so touted. And I've heard it, heard like chicken cartilage is a or a chicken breast bone, and you know, like a lot of the but chicken is very much about cartilage support, but again, it doesn't have like the the regenerative gut support, etc., of type three.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

But type three does. So normally, most people when they think of bone broth, I'll always go to type three. Like, because most people, when they think about bone broth, it's a type three thing they're looking for rather than like the the joint aspect or the the sort of the strength support.

SPEAKER_03 9:38

Which one would be best for skin then? Because there are a lot of humans who drink bone broth for their complexion. All the people in Hollywood, like, oh, look at my skin, I'm drinking my bone broth every day. Okay. So that's the strengthening, the collagen that's going to strengthen the skin to not be wrinkly and to be more supple.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

So a lot of people, it's like like it's quite common, like with cats. That's why fish bone broth is really good for cats again, because it helps with the skin. It's the best for hydration and the best for the type one.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

Yeah. Best for hydration.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

And like the most easily like um absorbed in some.

SPEAKER_03 10:11

That makes sense because hydrating skin makes less wrinkles, stronger skin, etc. Okay. Great. That's a lot of nuances. I didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Yeah, no. So, but again, which is why if you're looking for all of those things, bury your bone broth.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

There you go. I love to preach variety, you know, with food just because obviously the nutrient comprehensive profile you're getting in is always going to be more expanded and more full if you're adding variety and more metabolic flexibility for the body, et cetera. But there's a lot of really good detail in why we would do variety for bone broth that I didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Yeah. And like it's funny because no one talks about it. It's like it's really interesting because again, like people when they look at like different types of bone broth, it's more about, oh, my dog loves chicken or my dog, my dog loves beef. And again, the other thing as well is that you know, when we talk about like the quality of the bone broth, it's all about the the sort of um ability to to gel.

SPEAKER_04 11:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

It's type three that gels. So if you have a type one or type two, they won't gel in the same way. It might be get a little bit gloopy. Okay, but they won't gel. Like type three will literally turn into like a jelly.

SPEAKER_03 11:19

And that's what I was always looking for, assuming that it had a better collagen or gelatin content if it was getting, but I didn't realize that that's primarily type three, so that really answers a lot of questions. So essentially a fish broth won't gel. Would be very liquid compared to that.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

And also the collagen level on a chicken or a fish will be much, much lower per like in terms of grams per mils. I don't know what the hell you would call that in American, because you know, but but like we do mills.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

I'm not sure about the parts of that.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Yeah, okay. But my big bug bear, I'll walk around to like American bone broth manufacturers. And a lot of them are very, very water heavy. They've been like, and again, like they they use hot fill techniques, um, which basically like waters down the product to create consistency. So you'll get a beef bone broth over here and you put it in the fridge and you'll tip it and it will just be water.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

So what's the hot fill process?

SPEAKER_00 12:17

So hot the hot fill processes, and then like we do this a lot, like when you look at pasteurized products. So if you think about some of the cheaper, it's not always cheaper, but like the the products which are on the supermarket shelf, which are in big cartons, seem very cheap, that process like that like then heats the heats the heats the thing up so that when it's then sealed it like stays sh shelf stable.

SPEAKER_03 12:44

So would a hot fill only apply to a shelf stable product?

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Yes. Okay. Yeah, so and look, a lot of the products which you will see, especially the cheap ones, will be hot fill. Some will use powdered, some will use liquid, but the reality is is that a hot fill product always contains an excess of liquid because they have to to make it a a shelf-stable product.

SPEAKER_03 13:06

But there are shelf stable products from the UK or otherwise that are still good quality and do have high collagen.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Yeah, no, no, look, there is like high quality pasteurized products, and but those are products that have to come straight from the kettle.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

And they are, like I say, and you can tell the difference because if you pick up a red meat bone broth and shake it, it doesn't sound like water. Right. It sounds like gloop in there.

SPEAKER_03 13:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

And again, very easy to tell.

SPEAKER_03 13:31

Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

As long as there's no weird additives like starches or anything like that, if you put it in the fridge, it will turn into a jelly. And then you know you're getting something quality. The problem is that in America, compared to Europe, we have to declare our collagen levels per.

SPEAKER_03 13:46

I did not know that until you told me recently, which I'd never even thought of that because nobody that I'm aware of in the United States does that for human or pet sold bone broth.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

So it's like the only way you can tell in the US is like how gel gelled it gets. And you can only really tell that, let's say, with like meat bone broths. Like so, like dark red meat bone broths. But then you have companies that add things like tapioca starch and stuff like that. So yeah, again, it makes it gel.

SPEAKER_03 14:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

But without actually making it good. Right.

SPEAKER_03 14:19

And tapioca starch should always show up on a label, right? An ingredient label. But people don't know to be looking for that knowing that's a thickener.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Well, the the problem is is like American ingredients are quite opaque in terms of like percentages. Like you can have two identical ingredient panels and have a very different like quality product.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

So, what should people look for?

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Go-to um distinction should be like protein levels.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

Okay. But which are also listed on the label?

SPEAKER_00 14:48

No, they are listed.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

But what I've noticed a lot of American companies do is they'll add meat into the bone broth, which will artificially heighten the protein levels.

SPEAKER_04 14:59

Ah.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

So it'll obscure the amount of bone broth that you've got in there. What you want is you want a a bone broth which has got nothing else in it. And like, look, American companies do this a lot. They'll put, oh, this is you know, bone broth with turmeric and kidney and liver and blah, blah, blah. And it's like, okay, if you wanted those things in your bone broth, just buy those things and add it to your bone broth. Don't like put it in there.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

You know, it's sort of like right, because it brings down the concentration of what the star of the product is.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

It makes it more opaque, it makes it harder to actually look at and actually discern what you're actually getting for your money. But they all do it. Like I then like I've noticed is a very common tactic. And they might give you some great reasons where oh we we all do this because um these things are all great for your dog, and I'm sure they are. Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:43

And putting turmeric and can justify it, but it's nice to know if they are adding some meat. What what should the label say? Should it just say like if it's a chicken bone broth, should it say chicken bones?

SPEAKER_00 15:55

It should should be three ingredients water, bones, apple cider vinegar. And that's it. Okay. Like that's your ideal product because the apple cider vinegar is just in there and it because it draws all the collagen nutrients out of the bones. Right.

SPEAKER_03 16:08

So it's just simmered for a long period at low temperatures with the apple cider vinegar.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

So for me, like the problem with bone broth is because it is so easily diluted, it's really easy for companies to appear better value and like look like they're giving something. But the problem is that more you you dilute it down, the less therapeutic it is.

SPEAKER_03 16:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

So, you know, again, if you've got like a dash of bone broth in a glass of water, it's not that therapeutic, right? But you know, so I'm kind of of the mind that people should do things in as basic a way as possible or self-declare. I mean, personally, I I my personal preference would be self-declare minimal ingredients, but we are where we are with it. And so for me, like when I look at these bone broths, it it should be about like yeah, just trying to pick out who is the most um self-declared minimal.

SPEAKER_03 17:00

What is the difference between gelatin and collagen?

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Gelatin is just something totally different, like it's collagen. And like I say, it's got different benefits, and like it it should be used differently. So again, like bone broth is about types of collagen and amino acids and gelatin, it it does have like skin benefits, like joint benefits, and that's gelatin a component of collagen. No, gel gelatin is like it like is quite often comes from skin. Okay. It's not that gelatin's like a bad thing or a good thing. It's like I think gelatin is uh on the whole a good thing because it does have joint support benefits to it, but it's nothing like a bone broth. Okay. Bone broth has very distinct amino acid qualities, it's hydrating, there's like strong nutritional benefits. Um, gelatin is just another thing.

SPEAKER_03 17:55

So it does not equal collagen.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

No, no, no, okay. But it's offering something different. Got it. It's offering something. So don't pick up like a gelatin product thing, well, it's kind of like bone broth. It's like, you know, it's like fish food is kind of like it's kind of like looks a bit like chicken food. But you know what I mean? It it's not the same thing. It's not you can't just sort of say, well, it kind of wiggles the same and it's in the same sort of packaging, so it that must be the same thing, right? Okay. There's lots of good use cases for it, but it's not, it shouldn't be in the same conversation as bone broth.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Okay. There's a big trend for uh pet supplements to have what's called UC2 collagen in it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Is that the same thing as type two or it's an extraction of it? So it it is the same thing, but it's not, if you know what I mean. So it's kind of UC2 is like an extraction of type two collagen. And so it's kind of like taking the I think it's taking the molecules of the collagen which have the cartilage building effect.

SPEAKER_03 18:54

Yep, isolating it and making it like potentiating it, making it more concentrated. Like Yes. Okay. So that makes a lot of sense. And it also makes sense that it's the new thing that everyone's touting for joint health, because if it's this type two that's really good for cartilage and such, I mean, there's a lot of joint damage that that particular tissue is what's being affected. And so helping that repair is going to be certainly a asset for a lot of joint problems.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

But my my personal belief is that when things appear in whole foods rather than being taken out and isolated and potentiated, then I think that they have a better, better overall bioavailability and actual absorbability into the system. So although UC2 is very hot at the moment, I would rather give a good quality poultry bone broth to my dog.

SPEAKER_03 19:50

Sing in my tune, Play. Sing in my tune. That's why, like everybody says, Dr. Katie, what's your favorite joint supplement? I'm like, bone broth.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

Before something in a jar that's powdered. And not to say that UC2 and other things can't have good, you know, benefits, but a quality, which this whole episode is about, a quality serving of bone broth should surpass what you can buy in a jar that's been isolated.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

And also the other thing as well is like with a poultry bone broth, you will also have type one collagen in there as well, as like not as much as type two. But again, so you've got like the the cartilage support, but then you also have the strength support as well, which will work alongside and will be absorbed at the same time.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

Whereas by isolating that one molecule, you're missing out on the diversity and variety of the other types that you know can really support the whole healing and reparative process.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Exactly. Yeah. So, like, look, UC2 is cool, but I think if you can do it.

SPEAKER_03 20:51

UC2 is cool, but bone broth, quality bone broth is cooler. Yeah. Just saying.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Just saying, just saying.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

Because we know collagen is such an obviously important piece of why we want to drink bone broth and give the give bone broth to pets.

SPEAKER_04 21:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

But the other constituents in bone broth that are really helpful, the amino acids, the proline, the glycine, those kinds of things, that would be essentially in the protein content.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, it would all be related to it. The thing is, the reason the collagen account is important because it's like the marker of concentration of the concentration. Because, like, so for example, that makes sense. Yeah. And look, look, you'll see it like with the gelling capacity in the red meats, but it becomes harder to notice when you start talking about fish broth and you start talking about chicken broth. And look, what I'd like to see companies doing is just self reporting. Because again, if you stand by your product, just self report. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 21:45

Yes, you know, like that because again, maybe some companies will hear this conversation and think about self reporting. I love it. Yeah, because let's start a trend.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

No, but I like seriously, it's like everyone's like, Oh, we care so much about pets and we love. Yeah, we care so much about the whole thing.

SPEAKER_03 22:01

Great discussion to get out there because just think about the really quality bone broths for any companies creating really quality, they're going to want to self-report to show a difference between their product and the other average product out there. So I think that's great. What is the cost behind that? Is that one of the obstacles that companies would offer as the reason they don't do it? I mean, obviously, transparency is if they don't want to be transparent with how little collagen there is in there, that's going to be one big reason. But is cost a factor or how expensive are these measures?

SPEAKER_00 22:33

So a lot of it would be to do with the batch size, right? But in reality, like most it's the costs of testing, and that that's for bacterial tests, microbial tests, um, and collagen levels, etc. They're like not expensive at all. Like, and and again, like look, per batch. Right. So if you were to do a like if you just think how much a uh like something like a blood panel is, or like any test you want to think of where you take a sample of something and send it off, what are we talking like a few hundred dollars to maybe a thousand dollars? It's it's not big. Yeah, any good company. And like this is and it is a big problem for let's say small producers. It's harsh. Yeah. But I mean, personally, if you can't afford a couple hundred dollars to make sure the adequate tests are done, and look, something like collagen testing, it's not something you have to do every time. You just, you know, because you're following recipes. So you're saying, well, I'm gonna use X amount of pounds of bones and X amount of gallons of water and X amount of like apple cider vinegar. Like you don't need to cut test that collagen every single time you do it. So it's not like you know, it's like an ongoing cost. Now the the the bacterial tests and the microbial tests are, but like they've they're a lot cheaper than like a full panel analysis.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

Still a minimal cost of total production.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Oh, like 100%. And anyone who's not doing it, anyone who says that we don't test because we're too small.

SPEAKER_02 23:57

Yeah. Not a good reason.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

No, yeah. It's a bit like saying, well, we haven't had like hygiene tests in our in our restaurant because we're only a small mum and pop business. Like, no, think about that.

SPEAKER_03 24:12

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

You would you eat there?

SPEAKER_03 24:14

No, and it wouldn't fly, and it wouldn't fly with you know legal standards either.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

So no, so but that's what I mean. It's kind of the same thing, but it's got it's it's kind of the same. Well, we're only small, so we don't we don't do any tests for anything. Um, yeah, like you wouldn't let that fly if you were like, you know, eating dinner in like a local dinner and say, yeah, well, we we don't we don't really follow health protocols or anything like that because it's quite expensive.

SPEAKER_03 24:40

Is there a distinction though for the consumer to know that with the shelf stable boxes or bags, however they're packaged, as opposed to a lot of the stuff that's available, at least for pets in the quality pet stores in the freezers, are come frozen to be thawed, obviously, before consumption. So is there one that's better or not?

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Or I mean, I would say consult the brand. Yeah. Because again, like the problem is it's easy for me to say that frozen ones are fine, but the problem is that like there's a lot of companies out there. And I'd love to tell you that like small batch is best because it helps smaller people, but you should support brands, not categories.

SPEAKER_03 25:20

And so just to clarify, it's not that a frozen bone broth that comes frozen, fresh frozen versus the shelf stable. There's no way to know right off the bat that one's better, it's not like frozen's better than shelf stable. No, it's just the quality of the product that's in there, not how it's in the format that it's purchased, is not a delineating factor of quality.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Yeah, no, like the fact something's frozen, that that's just finishing techniques. Okay. I mean, you could say that like frozen, if you were to take the same quality frozen and compare it against the same quality pasteurized, maybe it's a little bit better because the pasture maybe the pasteurization process is like a little bit less good for it, but like the real quality is in the actual bone broke. Okay. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 26:06

So it's not like minimal difference from the format that it's packaged in.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Yeah, yeah. Like so just just because it's frozen doesn't make it good. Better.

SPEAKER_03 26:17

Okay. Yep. That's kind of what I was after.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

But it's weird because I do think people have got into that mindset. We I see it with like fresh frozen.

SPEAKER_03 26:23

Intuitively would seem to make sense to most people.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Yeah, because I I see it with fresh frozen meals, like especially like the gently cooked stuff, is that people look at and go, oh, frozen must be good.

SPEAKER_03 26:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

But actually, what's more important is like, yeah, how's it been put together?

SPEAKER_03 26:38

Okay. Like good to know.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:40

Because cer certainly shelf stable does have a lot of convenience factor to it. You know, a lot of people may struggle with freezer space, refrigerator space, or even just accessibility of getting it, you know, versus what is true with shelf stable compared to frozen is shelf stable done properly has to be done at scale.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

Like, so if you are a smaller producer of bone broth, your ability to actually afford the the correct uh machinery and uh processes to shelf stable your product is gonna be a huge amount of money compared to like if you freeze it. Okay, like so.

SPEAKER_03 27:18

Generally a smaller company would probably turn out a fresh frozen product.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 27:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Generally. Good to know. But not always.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Because I think there's a lot of marketing kudos with frozen where people go, oh, frozen must be good. But like I think realistically, something like bone broth, you want it, you really want it more convenient to be honest. I I think the other question thing we should talk about when it comes to bone broths is like the homemade stuff.

SPEAKER_03 27:41

Yes, I did want to get to that because a lot of my clients and pet parents will make their own bone broths. And there's lots of recipes out there that people can tap into for making their own bone broth. And I quite frankly haven't made my own. I kept considering it through the years, but have not done that. So I don't have a lot of background and knowledge on how to counsel people to, you know, walk through those steps themselves.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Do you have some input on so my issue is with people homemaking their own bone broth is that you really need to know what you're doing to do it properly. Because again, and this is something I came across like a while back was people saying to me the problem with bone broth is the histamine level.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

Now that is a very common side effect of homemade bone broths, not commercial made bone broths, because um the histamine in bone broth comes from bacteria. Let's say you take um a commercial bone broth factory, it will be aseptic. Every like the the the bones will have like a window where they've been like frozen or transported and put in and used, and it all has to be done within a certain window, it has to be in sterile environments, food safety standards have to be observed. The problem is with home, as you know yourself, everyone's home is different. And the reason histamine becomes a problem is because there's no kill step with with bone broth. And like if you don't anyone who doesn't know what a kill step is, kill step is basically you raise the temperature to like a high level, which kills off any bacteria, and and but by doing that you'll also okay, potentially damage the quality of the bone broth during it. So the idea of bone broth is it's slow simmered like over a long period of time, two to three days.

SPEAKER_04 29:33

Okay, right.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

But the problem is if you've got bacteria on the bones, that bacteria then turns into histamines because it multiplies and it turns into histamine.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

So generally, generally there is no kill step.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

There is no kill step with homemade bone broth. And this is why there's problems with people uh making homemade bone broth. So again, if you're making homemade bone broth, you need to make sure that you're using bones that have been sourced and turned around quickly and frozen and like handled in a as clean a way as possible. Because the danger is that if there is like any chance of, let's say, bacteria being on there, when you when you slow cook it because it's you're never going above the level that like the heat level that kills bacteria, right? What you're doing is you're multiplying that bacteria and it turns into like histamines. And so if you're giving it to a dog who has got, let's say, allergy issues or gut health issues. Yeah, then you're actually you could actually do more harm than good.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

Right. And I've had a lot of uh clients through the years that have read about histamine, you know, different foods that deliver more histamines to the body. And so I do have a lot of patients who have that and dogs' allergies are a huge health issue really across the board. Um, and so there are a lot of pet parents that are avoiding bone broth for that reason. So that's a really good idea.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

That doesn't happen in well-made commercially bone brothers because it's made in aseptic conditions. So food sandy food hygiene safety standards, like there has to be tests done on batches afterwards to make sure the microbial content is right and make sure there's no bacteria in there and that sort of stuff. So commercial, commercially produced product, you will not get the histamine issues with.

SPEAKER_03 31:15

Okay. So I always talk about how I love a fresh bone broth as opposed to a typical powdered joint supplement. But there actually are a lot of powdered bone broth options out there too. What would you say to that type of product?

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Again, there's nothing wrong with pound pound and bone broth, but it's a bit like I like the analogy I'll give it's like a steak. If you were to eat a steak or you were to dehydrate a steak and then rehydrate a steak, is it really still a steak steak? Do you know what I mean? Because again, you lose the cell integrity generally.

SPEAKER_03 31:50

Exactly food that it was. So it's its natural state.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

And don't get me wrong, like powder's convenient, it's light, it's easy to ship.

SPEAKER_03 31:57

It's nice to have as a backup or when you're traveling, but that's what I've always told my clients too is if you can feed fresh, obviously, goal for fresh. But a powdered option as a backup or occasionally, you know, still still good.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

It's still better than nothing, right? It's not I'm not like dunking on it. I'm not saying like, yeah, powder bone broth, you know, throw that in the bin. Because like, look, it's everything.

SPEAKER_03 32:19

I travel with my powder bone broth so that I can, you know, have some on the road.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

And look, it you know, at the end of the day, if it's more economic and you can't afford like a good quality liquid one, then fine, you know, that's like it's still it's still not a bad thing. But it's just like anything. You'll just if you're if you're buying a product which has like been fully dried, you're gonna lose some of the benefits and cell integrity from that. And then you know, but again, it makes perfect sense.

SPEAKER_03 32:46

Convenience is big. And so for pet parents or consumers, the three things you're looking for on the label, as simple as a recipe as possible, is the water, the bones, and the apple cider vinegar.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:58

But as far as in the US, where there's no collagen concentration listed, now we understand that fish broth and even or fish bone broth, chicken or poultry bone broth to some extent, will always be less gelatinous, less thick and heavy. Um how does the consumer in the US or someone buying a bone broth in the US, how do we select from the ingredient label? Any tips?

SPEAKER_00 33:25

The main thing which you gotta look out for is added meats put in there. Because if there is no added meats in there, then you can go off the protein to some degree. Because like the higher the protein.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Ah, okay. So look at the bone.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

The less the less diluted it's gonna be.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

But that only works if they have an added extra meat in there.

SPEAKER_03 33:43

That's a good distinction.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

So with bone broth, it's like, you know, try if you can get something which is just bone broth, then you can look at the protein levels and then you can actually then do more of a comparison.

SPEAKER_03 33:54

This conversation will also elucidate for people that the higher price of something that may have a more collagen content is gonna be worth the cost. As you know, so we're always cost and convenience are the two things that, you know, really drives people to purchase something or, you know, select something. So I think this is a great conversation for people to understand the functional value of the food that they're purchasing.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

And and look, I think it's I think it's like one of those things that you instinctively know is that if you have like a big carton of something compared to a small carton of something, and it's for therapeutic means, it doesn't mean the big carton is better. Right. Do you know what I mean? It's it's like I think I think I think you instinctively know a lot of these things that like people understand fillers, and like water is a filler in this situation, to be honest, because water's pretty cheap. Right. Do you know what I mean? And I can just like we could add our own water because I've had that conversation with people before where like you're you know, you've got a therapeutic rate bone broth and you're comparing it against something which isn't, and people say, Oh, this is this is um this is you know it's a bit expensive. And I go, Yeah, just add you know, four litres of water to it and you've got the same product, right? And you've made three times as much. But again, it depends what you want. If you want it as like a a flavor topper, there's a market for that, right? Do you know? And there are a lot of brands in America that I would consider to be flavor toppers. Wow. And that's you know, that's but that's the reality. I'm like, that's not me being a pessimist. No, I no, but no, but like people understand this argument with dog food. They understand it, they go, Oh, well, this has got like four percent meat, and the rest is like corn and fillers and god knows what else. And they understand that argument that if you buy something like a let's say just in the kibble market, a cheap kibble versus a good kiddle, it's still kibble, it's still like a little pellet you feed your dog on, right? But they understand that like one you're gonna spend a lot more money on, but bone broth or whatever reason, they just think lump it all in as yeah, bone broth is bone broth, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:57

That's a good analogy, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

So yeah, yeah. So hopefully I'll upset everyone. Yeah. But already.

SPEAKER_03 36:04

I think it will. It's enlightened me a lot too. So love that we had this conversation. I it will make me uh much more equipped to support pet parents in making choices that are good for their pets. Awesome. Awesome.