Non-Anesthetic Dental Cleanings: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly

Non-anesthetic dental cleanings have been around in the US for decades but have recently been gaining a lot more traction. In this episode, Dr. Katie shares a patient case with Clayton highlighting the potential pitfalls of NADs. They breakdown and discuss why dental health is so important, what really happens in a proper dental cleaning for your pet, and things you can do to help your pet have their best oral health. 

For more information on specific products Dr. Katie and Clayton recommend check out Dr. Katie's store at https://drkaties.com/

Check out Claytons podcast Pet Business Disrupters https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pet-business-disruptors/id1759599442

CREDITS

Executive Producer: Kathryn Rager

Producer: Jessica Leigh

Editor: Rob Bergsma

Social Media Manager: Shana Allan

Thanks to MaxLuxe Studios @maxluxmedia

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Her teeth are completely clean. There's no tartar. There's no visible plaque. But yet her gums were totally receded. They were dark red purple. And they were receded so much to the point where I could see her tooth roots. I could literally see the furcation of the roots like passing right through. That's how much the gums were receded.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Did the um people who are doing the cleaning not notice this? Like, I mean, like, I'm not being funny.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Question, Clayton.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

I'm not being funny. You the you can see the roots of the teeth and they're there cleaning it. Were they cleaning the roots as well? I mean, what the hell's going on?

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Together, an industry disruptor.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

And renowned veterinarian discuss and debate, establish norms and new ideas in the pet world.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

This is challenging pet health. So, Clayton, how's your dental health lately?

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Do you know what? I haven't got a single feeling.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Honestly.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Yeah, like nearly 50 years old, and I haven't got a single feeling.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

That is remarkable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

And I put that down to genetics. Yeah, but that's just purely genetics because that's it's not in the tremendous efforts. No, it's not for pure regime or like me eating seaweed powder or anything like that. It's literally, it's literally just yeah, pure, pure genetics. It's a bit like my hair, you know, it's like it's it's not like I use volumizer on my hair or anything. It just naturally is this insane.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Yeah, I'm totally envious of it. Just saying. Well, I ask about dental health because it's such a passion of mine to discuss dental health, educate about it, support pet parents to know more about it so they can support their pets. Because as an integrative veterinarian, I have such a deep appreciation for how dental health or oral health impacts whole body health. And I love to tell people you or your pet cannot be in good whole body health if you're living with poor oral health. And I really developed such a passion in my background regarding dentistry and oral health because when I started my integrative practice 15, 20 years ago, I actually shared space within a board-certified dental practice with some leading authority, you know, veterinary dentists, um, Dr. Brooke Nemick and his team. And I learned an extraordinary amount about dental and oral health for pets during that time. And I've really brought that into my approach with how I support pet health. One of the other things that we know is really a proactive step in dental care is teeth cleanings. And one of the topics within dental care that I think is worth a really good discussion today is the growing trend of non-anesthetic dentistry or non-anesthetic cleanings. A lot of people have termed it NAD, non-anesthetic dentistry. It is a huge trend in the US. It's been around for 20 years or so, but really gaining a lot of traction in the last decade. Curious, Clayton, is non-anesthetic dentistry cleaning a big thing for dogs in the UK? Or for pets?

SPEAKER_00 3:12

No, it's not. Whenever we talk about like veterinary intervention dental care, we're always talking about anesthetic. Okay. It sounds tempting because I think like, look, especially with older dogs, there's a real chance they could like not wake up and for you know to clean their teeth, that seems like a real, real sort of like it would need to be super serious, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

And a very legitimate concern and a very intuitive concern for the vast majority of people is the safety of the anesthesia and should I put my pet under. The value of doing a dentistry is so tremendously beneficial to the pet's health that it really supports if anesthesia is done well, it supports the necessity to put them under anesthesia to take care of it. And like I said, the mouth tends to hide a lot of problems. And an interesting statistic is that 60% of dental problems, or what we call pathology, is hidden below the gum line. Having dental and oral disease shortens lifespan a lot. Like, you know, it really plays into longevity. And so it's definitely an intentional process to be conscious of taking care of the mouth, even though anesthesia is needed.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

And let me tell you about Lucy, a cavalier King Charles Spaniel. Her mom brought her to me and said, You're a holistic veterinarian. Um, I've been to several conventional vets, and I took my dog Lucy to them because she just acts older. She's not really lethargic, but she's just low energy for a five-year-old. She's like, I've had cavities all my life and she's five and she acts like she's 12. Nobody can figure it out. People have, you know, vets have done blood work and she's like, but nobody's done a full thyroid profile. And she had done some of her own research, which was great. And she was, you know, starting to be pretty convinced that perhaps Lucy had a hypothyroid issue. And that's why she had low energy. So she said, I'm coming to you because I want you to do a full thyroid profile, complete thyroid profile, which I love to do as an integrated veterinarian. And a lot of conventional vets don't do the full panel, they just check a T4, a single thyroid value. So I said, sure, we're, you know, we'll do the blood work and I'll recommend, you know, some other tests to make it more comprehensive as well. But I'm gonna do a physical exam. It's the first time I've meeting your pet, so I'm always gonna be thorough. And I I pay attention to the mouth. Started my physical exam. I opened Lucy's mouth and I look in her mouth and I saw what is kind of shocking to me, but other people hadn't noticed it. Her teeth are completely clean. There's no tartar, there's no visible plaque, but yet her gums were totally receded. They were dark red purple, and they were receded so much to the point where I could see her tooth roots. I could literally see the furcation of the roots like passing right through. That's how much the gums were receded. I touched, she was a really nice, tolerant dog. So I touched the area there, and the teeth were mobile. They were, they were moving. So they're completely diseased and abscessed, but they were sparkling clean. And I said, Wow, she has got a significant level of dental disease and periodontal disease, but her teeth are so clean, that's so odd. Lucy's mom says, Well, yeah, because I take her every two months, every other month, she goes, you know, like clockwork for her non-anesthetic dental cleaning, her teeth cleaning. So they are scaling and polishing the teeth and leaving a ton of disease in this dog's mouth. And so that's the big kicker that I love everybody to understand is just because the teeth appear clean does not mean they're healthy. And that under the gum line, she had a tremendous level of disease, which is showering bacteria, you know, into her body and inflammation into her body.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Did the um people who are doing the cleaning not notice this? Like, I mean, like, I'm not I'm not being funny.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Like question, Clay.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

I'm not being funny. You the you can see the roots of the teeth and they're there cleaning it. Were they cleaning the roots as well? Or they're I mean, what the hell's going on?

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Isn't that like they didn't say and now to take a step back, there are dental hygienist service providers that would be better about educating the client and say that she is beyond what we should be doing for you. Don't spend your money with us, like she needs to go to a veterinarian for an anesthetic dentistry. But there's a lot of very uneducated service providers because you only need like a weekend certification course to do this. This is not a high level of training. This is very different from what a human dental hygienist, they have a few years of training to do what they're doing. And so it is definitely a different level of expertise that a lot of these service providers are, you know, dealing with when they're working with our pets. So in Lucy's particular case, obviously, I said to her as I was doing the physical exam, just so you know, severe periodonal disease can fatigue the body. You literally can have low energy and be fatigued when you have this level of inflammation and bacterial load, because the body's constantly having to use energy to deal with that bacterial load, to try to wall it off from the rest of the body, not succumb to it, you know, deal with all that inflammation. So it's very fatiguing, especially over time. So we did all the blood work. Lucy did not have a thyroid problem. Her thyroid values were completely normal. And so after we did the labs and found out that there was nothing else that I could identify in the labs, which mirrored what previous vets had found, then I recommended a board-certified dentist, and she went to a fantastic uh dental, you know, specialist who did a full evaluation under anesthesia, you know, probe, did x-rays, determined that 14 teeth needed to be extracted. They were that diseased. Lucy had 14 teeth extracted. And a month later, she came back to see me for a recheck. And her mom was hugging me saying, Oh my God, I have my dog back. She is running around, she's got her energy back, and she's like, I can't believe I didn't know this. And it made, I mean, I still feel rewarded. I'm getting emotional about it. And the fact that understanding oral health makes me a better integrated veterinarian. It makes me a better veterinarian. But the level of dental training that I had, I was really cued into the other, you know, markers and parameters of the gum health is actually a better signifier of what's going on in the deeper tissues than the level of tartar. So I actually didn't mention that. But tartar or calcified plaque, hardened plaque, plaque is, you know, the bacterial biofilm on the teeth. Once it hardens and we call it tartar and it's discolored and it's, you know, brown and, you know, darker and gunky looking, that is not as real is definitely not as good of an indicator of what's going on under the gum line as what's happening in the gums. If they look swollen, you know, gingivitis levels, are they red? Are they purple, et cetera? So that's what clued me in, and obviously the gingival recession, which to me was very blatantly obvious. And so the tartar on the crown of the tooth, which is the, you know, the anatomical name for the part of the tooth we can see, it's like the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot of root below the gum line, and we're seeing the tip of that iceberg, and we're not seeing what's going on underneath. If you don't have an extremely tolerant pet and a very good pet dental hygienist, you are not able to curette under the gum line to get that tartar and plaque out from that subgingival space. You can't reliably check that or check it at all without anesthesia.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

So, what was causing the issue in Lucy's mouth?

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Infection and inflammation. The gingiva, which of course the gums, right? Yeah. When the gingiv gingiva gets inflamed, that's our first tip-off. If the gums bleed, that's one of the first visible things that people may pick up on if, you know, the dog's chewing something or they're brushing their teeth or whatever, that's a tip-off to gingivitis. But if they look swollen or reddened or darker colored, um, that's gingivitis. Anything that's occurring under the gum line in the deeper tissues, those are called periodontal tissues. So periodontal means the deeper tissues below the gum line. And once you get disease inflammation and bacterial infection in that depth of the tissue, that's where it's really, I mean, it is through the gums too, but that's where it's really seeding to more significant levels and more systemic administration through the body.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Do you think like the rise in non-anesthetic dentistry in America? Like, because again, it I'm I could be wrong. It might be gaining traction in the UK. But do you think this is part of the wider problem with healthcare generally addressing symptoms rather than root causes? And that like it's all about okay, well, like we can address these symptoms, but we're not gonna look any deeper.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

I think that is part of it. I think that the fear of anesthesia, as you mentioned, cost is a big thing for a lot of pet parents. And that's a, you know, that's a real factor, of course. But I think also what you said is, yeah, just not understanding that there's another depth of issues below the gum line. And the other, you know, the other very important aspect I talked about how dental health is so important for whole body health is that the inflammation and the bacterial load in the mouth and below the gum line is connected to the whole rest of the body. And, you know, it's your gums are a transport system through, you know, the blood vessels and the gingiva and the gums to deliver all of that to the rest of the body. And so chronic inflammation in the mouth or periodontal disease or gingivitis is literally causing more inflammation and bacterial delivery to the rest of the body. So most people have heard like heart disease is, you know, linked or can be certainly exasperated by periodonal disease or dental disease, kidneys, you know, liver. But honestly, chronic oral disease promotes all inflammation in the body. So even arthritis. Literally, arthritis is worse if you have periodontal disease.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

The mouth and the gut is always like, I think we a lot of people know there's a big connection, but I suppose it goes both ways, right? The like the gut, if you've got like a, you know, because we often like recommend things like seaweed powders for dental, don't we? So, and again, it's about sorting out the problems in the stomach to help the problems in the mouth, but I suppose that it works both ways.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Both ways, you got it. The mouth also is a huge window into the rest of the body, and the mouth shares, you know, with the rest of the body.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

So, do you see like non-anesthetic treatments as just being almost cosmetic, to be honest?

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Perfectly said. And I actually meant to say that. So thank you for, yeah. And that's what I really like to describe. Perfect. Thank you. Um, that's what I that's the word I love to use to describe for people, is that it's really more of a cosmetic service rather than a health service. But the majority of the time, it's giving pet parents a false sense of security that they just spent their money and their pet just went through that level of stress and, you know, experience for something that literally was cosmetic to have their teeth look cleaner. But if they didn't get under the gum line or find problems under the gum line, they haven't achieved any value.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

It is also important to distinguish the difference between like real inflamed problematic like gums and real bad dental issues, and just the teeth are a little bit like on an older dog, they're like a little bit tart up or something like that. You know, that they're not that bad.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

And again, the appearance of the gums is a big tip-off. You won't always see, again, could be up to 60% of problems unidentified from a visual observation, how the gums look, how bad the breath is, because bad breath is definitely a tip-off that you know there's an issue because bacteria are releasing those odors. And the other, I think, actually really important tidbit to cover is that small breed dogs, as a general rule, suffer from far more, you know, advanced levels of periodonal disease and earlier in life than large breed dogs do in general.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Like cats.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Cats, cats are even cats too, and anybody with a pushed-in face, you know, brachycephalic breeds, so your Persians, you know, your short hairs and the in the cat in the feline world. Um, and then all your little cute freaking pushed-in face dogs, you know, and the Frenchies and the Pugs and the Boston Terriers and the Shih Tzu's and, you know, lassas and all those kiddos, um have even more dental issues because they still have the same number of teeth. All dog have 42 teeth if they have them all, you know. You've got a big collie or German shepherd, you know, your teeth are all spread out, and you got a little bitty face, you have to shove all those teeth in that little bitty face. So you got teeth that are angled and, you know, um, you know, not lined up appropriately and they're smooshed together. And so you have black and tartar, that plaque and tartar that are gonna um fester more in between, you know, the crevices of those smooshed in teeth, smooshed up against each other teeth, versus teeth that are nicely spaced out is almost a little bit like nature's dental floss a little more, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

I well, I always call Yorkis too. I forgot to call them out. Yorkies, I always tell people you have the poster child of dental disease. Like they're veterinary dentists will joke around, like, you know, most Yorkes by the time they're five, they really should they'll just do better off without their teeth. Like just take them all out. Yeah, like it's that bad.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Um, and so it stops you boying, it stops them buying as well, to be fair.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Like you're seriously, like we'll have less inflammation in their body, less infection. Um, they'll live longer. And so they're not afraid to dig the teeth out if they need to be dumb, but they love to save teeth. And actually, here's a really cool nugget that I can share too. Board certified dentists, and again, I worked with them and did a lot and learned a lot through the years, they call out eight strategic teeth in a dog's mouth. And they're like, you know, we love to save teeth. We're okay with removing teeth that need to be removed, they're diseased, so they're not doing the body any favors, but they will do their best to save eight teeth in the mouth because of their strategic necessity or value in the mouth. And those eight teeth are the four canine teeth, which we would say are the four fang teeth. Yeah. And then the upper fourth premolar, which is a huge three-rooted tooth up here, back here, and then the lower first molar, which is only a two-rooted tooth, but it's huge.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Also, losing your teeth changes the whole like strength and everything.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Strength and structure, right? For instance, if you were a police dog um that needed to have teeth to like do your actual work and job, that's literally a reason to retire a police dog if they lost a canine tooth.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

It's funny because like one thing I always would say, like, because obviously, like um, you got Joe's product in Genius Probiotics, like the dental spray, and then you got, let's say, Carnival seaweed powder. And I always say to people, just brushing your dog's teeth, it's kind of like the way I used to describe it with people, it's like painting over a damp wall. That like the damp will come back through. You kind of need to try and make sure that like what's happening in the stomach is right, but then also make sure the mouth biome is correct, because just brushing the brushing teeth or just giving it a I mean, like look, I think chews don't clean teeth anyway, that they like or minimum.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

No, I mean they can have specific things can help, but most things do not, and people assume that they are. Of course, I developed my own dental product within Dr. Katie's Remedies line, which uh is a fabulous product for um using for routine proactive care. But I would say that brushing the teeth does have value. It's still considered the gold standard in dental care, you know, for humans and even for pets. But as you did accurately say, it's not the end-all be-all, and it's not getting rid of all problems. Um, plaque will re-you brush the teeth, and plaque is right back in 24 hours. So if you're not doing it every day, or a lot of humans, you know, brush our teeth twice a day and we're flossing and all this kind of stuff. So if people are just brushing their pets' teeth once a week, yeah, that's not really making much of any impact at all.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

And also, especially if your dog's got things like bad breath, for example, and that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Like you said, it's coming from deeper and you know, the periodonal tissues, the oral microbiome in the mouth, the gut microbiome. So dental health, as we mentioned and oral health is a true reflection of a lot of things happening in the body. So it is, you know, a deeper level of things that we can proactively, you know, affect with our care. But um, but gingival rubs, like the product that, you know, I have in my line that does have a coconut oil base, or everything's organic, but essential oils of peppermint and myrrh, which are very good at addressing inflammation and even bacterial, um, you know, antibacterial. Um, and then there's trace minerals in my product as well.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

What does myrrh do? Because I always think about myrrh as like, you know, frankincense and myrrh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

It's a powerful healing oil and it dates back, you know, centuries and centuries clearly.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Time of Jesus. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

But it's widely known to help with oral lesions, um, gingivitis, oral infection. So it's been used for dental and gum care for centuries, actually. So yeah, that's a good one. And then peppermint not only is breath freshening, of course, but it's also got natural antimicrobial properties. The two of them in my product are very subtle, very small amounts. You don't need much. You know, they're very um concentrated as essential oils. Um, so it's very palatable for dogs and even cats. A lot of cats like it and do very well with it. But something like that, or even just plain coconut oil. I mean, there's a lot of things we can use in the mouth. Coconut oil itself is, or MCT oil is anti inflammatory and um antimicrobial as well, and it tastes good.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

So here's a question for you. So is there a is there a point in non anesthetic then? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Such a good question.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

Because I'm kind of thinking like there's a lot of decent products out there which you could almost use yourself.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Or if it is veterinary, like veterinary worthy, probably don't do that, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Yeah. So I would say your question, is it worth ever doing a non-anesthetic? Board certified dentists would say no. Um, I, you know, again, I I'm integrative. I try, you know, most people that are holistic and integrative, they're like, I don't want to use anesthesia. So they come to me and they want, they think that I'm gonna support non-anesthetic. And I was like, oh, sorry, I'm gonna have to bust that myth. Like, that's mostly cosmetic. What I like to tell people is the vast majority of the time, it has little to no health value, like, you know, marginally, me mostly cosmetic. Your money is better spent, and the the stress event for that dog is better spent going towards a qualified anesthetic procedure.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

So short answer, no.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

Short answer is no. You got it.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

But it does sound very attractive, doesn't it? Like the IDX is cheaper.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's you know, not a shocker and not surprising why people would opt for that. But actually, like by not doing something deeper, what you're really doing is you're like like yeah, like leaving yourself open, like you're allowing inflammation and infection to continue. So now that said, there is also some tips that we can give to pet parents on what to look for with a dentistry in choosing a veterinarian who does a qualified um expertise level of dentistry. Because to date, still most veterinary schools don't have a high-level dental, you know, program. Um, and when I was in veterinary school 30 years ago, I mean, we got very little dental training. Yet every veterinarian, I mean, that's part of what we do every day. Vets are doing dental surgery. And I love to tell people, like, you know, your MD, your regular doctor, did not go to dental school. Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

I was gonna say that. It's it's a weird thing, isn't it? Because you don't go to your general practitioner as a human for dental or dental, but you go to your vet and assume that they know everything.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

So again, it's nice to know what to ask to see if their level of dental skill is, you know, is something that's a good match for your pet.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

How do you like respectfully ask your veterinarian?

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Like, because again, you've got a situation like Lucy where they were taking her in like on a regular basis and they were basically just polishing disease teeth, you know?

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Exactly. Just cleaning and polishing them and calling it a day. So that's a great question, is what do people ask respectfully? There's a couple of questions that I would ask. I would first ask if they have dental x-ray, because most practices in the US now have dental x-ray. If a practice does not have dental x-ray, I would not have a dentistry done there.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Or dental x-rays the same as normal x-rays.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

No, they're actually very specific. And so I think every veterinarian has regular x-ray capability. I mean, that's something that's involved in everyday practice all the time. But but a dental x-ray machine is a very specific device and machine that's different than a normal x-ray machine. It's standard X-ray machine. You cannot see the level of detail in these teeth, teeth roots, sinuses, things like that that you need from a dental x-ray. So it's a very specific specific machine device to pick up that level of detail. There's a digital plate, you know, that gets put in the mouth. That's also why the pet has to be under anesthesia, because you could not put that in a pet's mouth. They bite down on it and destroy it or not allow you to do it. Um, but that gets placed in the mouth and very strategic angles and everything to get those imaging pictures that they need to identify problems in, you know, every location in the mouth or suspect locations. So very specific. So it's a good thing to ask about. And just because they have dental imaging or dental x-rays doesn't mean that they are superbly trained and qualified. But if they don't have it, you can cross them off the list, in my opinion. Like they should have that. Secondly, another question that could be asked is do you probe around every tooth and measure, you know, periodontal pockets? Because if they're just cleaning and polishing, then again, you're not getting near the value that, you know, that we should be getting out of a dentistry that that pet needs. And so they should be probing just like our dental hygienists and dentists do for humans. I would also ask about their anesthetic protocols, you know, because that's a big part of being safe. And so we want to make sure they're not cutting corners and doing sort of cheaper um, you know, options for people to get more people through the door and signing up for the procedure. You know, if we're gonna invest in a dental procedure, we want to invest in safety. That's like one of the number one important things to invest in. And so the protocols they're using, are they monitoring the pet? Are they using pulse oximetry and you know, EKGs under one of the things that I love to have people ask about is do you have warm air blankets? You know, back in the day when I became a veterinarian, we had heating pads, which was better than nothing, but keeps one side of the pet, you know, warm. Now there's warm air blankets because they lose body temperature under anesthesia and you're working with cool water in the mouth and rinsing the mouth. And if they're under for a bit with extractions, if they need extractions, then it makes the anesthesia much safer and the pet wakes up easier with less potential internal complications if their body retained body heat and they didn't get hypothermic when they were under anesthesia. So those are some of the things they can ask about anesthesia. Another thing pre-anesthetic with all dentistries or other surgeries is it is appropriate and should always be done a preoperative blood panel. So where they, you know, draw blood and check a CBC and a chemistry panel at minimum before the pet goes under anesthesia to make sure that there aren't any red flags that would um prevent them from being a good anesthetic candidate at that time. But if people have access to a board-certified dental specialist, that is always my top recommendation. If people can do that, they may cost, you know, more, but they are worth it. Like that is their specialty and they do the best top-notch dental care.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

Yeah, because I I do think like there's almost like again, you could tell me I'm wrong, but like I always think with dental and vets that I feel like some of them are like really keen to do it because it's an easy thing and it's quick money for them.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

I mean, I mean it sounds like a little bit cynical, but uh that's kind of how I feel with some vets.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

And different veterinarians are gonna have, you know, different tendencies, of course. And I think most vets, their heart is in the right place and they got into this to care for animals. But we can't argue the fact that a veterinary clinic is a business and it is there to make profit. And with veterinary services going more corporate, we're definitely trending more toward the business side of things versus the typical historic mom and pop shop single-owned veterinary clinic. But really, the you know, the take-home today that I wanted to um get across to everyone is the limitations of being mostly a cosmetic service um for when we're not using anesthesia for teeth cleaning for pets.