DNF Does Not Mean Failure

Three letters can undo months of training if we let them: DNF. We’ve both seen how “did not finish” gets translated into something far harsher, and today we slow it right down and tell the truth about what those letters can and cannot mean in ultra running and trail running.

We start with the real-world choices that sit behind a result, like Dawn dropping down to a shorter race distance to protect an ankle and keep her long-term running intact. Becky shares what it’s like to return to a structured training plan with more speed work, drills, and strength training focused on Achilles resilience, plus the recovery basics that actually move the needle: sleep, routine, and not trying to be a hero when you’re run down.

Then we get into the heart of the mindset work. A DNF doesn’t tell you whether you ran 10 miles or 90, whether you were injured, hypothermic, timed out, underfuelled, or simply having a terrible day. We talk about that moment when the thought “I could stop” appears, why safety and navigation change the stakes in long races, and how to use a physical reset and a mental reset before making a decision you might regret. You’ll also hear why we love the idea of getting curious rather than judgemental when you debrief a DNF, so you can learn and come back stronger.

If this resonates, subscribe, share the episode with a running friend, and leave us a review. What’s your DNF or DNS story, and what did it teach you?

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Got a story about a trail friendship, or a question for us? We'd love to hear it — email us at stillrunningstrong@gmail.com, or find us on Instagram and Facebook.

Still Running Strong is for general interest and entertainment only. We share our own personal experiences, not professional medical, nutritional, or training advice. Always consult a qualified professional before making changes to your training, diet, or health.

Transcript

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Welcome And Today’s Big Topic

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to Still Running Strong. My name's Becky and this is episode nine. Hello, I'm Dawn. Lovely to be back. So today we've got uh an interesting topic to talk about. We sort of started talking towards this last week. We're going to be talking about DNFs and DNS. If people don't know where that is, it's did not finish or did not start. And both Dawn and I have got experience of both of these concepts, as well as Dawn's as ever, very insightful knowledge from a mindset perspective. So which do you prefer, Dawn? A DNF or a DNS? DN I don't ooh, a DNS, I think. Yeah, I'd rather do a DNS than a DNF. Um but before all that, which is gonna we've got a lot to say

Dawn Drops Distance To Protect Injury

SPEAKER_00 0:50

on that. Dawn, how's your running week been?

Dawn 0:53

Okay, so well I had to make a bit of a decision actually, which really links into what we're talking about today quite nicely. So as you know, in a couple of weeks I'm meant to be doing the Maverick 25k with you. It's actually the 3rd of October, isn't it? I thought it was 21k.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Is it 25?

Dawn 1:11

Or many remote.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

I'm only gonna run 21. Oh right.

Dawn 1:15

Well you could get at least you'll be ready and prepared for a DNF if you do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

21 and I'm stopping.

Dawn 1:20

Right. Okay, so I'm meant to be doing that, but as I've been saying for the last few weeks, it's a very boring topic now. My angle is crumbling. Really fed up with it. So, um, but it's been particularly bad the last couple of weeks. So I just decided it's not worth the risk. Um because there is a voice that sort of says to me, you know, yeah, I could do it, but at what cost? It's not worth it. I've had 18 months where I couldn't run at all. I don't, you know, I'm I'm getting back to it. It's not worth the risk. So I've decided to drop down to the 9k. I will see it as it's not a consolation prize. I've totally reframed it. I'm going to have a lovely time. I'm not dragging myself around 25k, potentially damaging my ankle further. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to it. It'd be a lovely day out, gorgeous trails, and we'll have fun. So I'm cool with that.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

I think it is a really a brave decision, but it's just a no, no, no-brainer dawn. You and when you just said ankle crumbling, that is slightly worrying. No, grumble, not crumbling. Crumbling? I thought, fucking hell, she got some degenerative grumbling. Oh get on it then. No, I don't and also it's all relative. What if what if we were entering a 70k and you said I'm dropping down to the 50? You know, it's it's still it's just relative, isn't it? To what? Yeah. I mean, 21, in some ways, I keep I can't say 21, 25 doesn't feel a long way. But actually, when I'm at kilometre 17, it's gonna think, fuck, you know, it is a long way. Yeah. This is this is quite a lot.

Dawn 2:52

It's all relative. Like, you know, if I think, you know, I've not been running further that that far lately, so 9k will feel like a decent distance to me. There's some elevation with it, so that'll feel good. But the biggest thing is I'm just looking forward to, you know, getting prepared for a race. I love all of that. And we're gonna have great fun and I'll be then cheer you over the finish line. Does our races start at the same time?

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Well, probably yeah. Well, hopefully I'll finish after you. But you mean it's gonna take me that long? Hang on, right? Are we on the same course though? We go on the same course a bit. No, no, and then do you know what I haven't even checked? Is it a loop? You know what? So once I did No, but I know what's gonna happen because once I did I hate half marathons, and I I did one at that Dawny Lake, you know where they do the rowing. So it's flat as a pancake, and it was around this loop, and then you came up alongside the lake the lake, and it had a little arrow. Go this way for the half marathon, or this way if you want to do 10k. And you should have seen me. It was like, oh, I don't know, on a and I was like, oh fuck it, I'm gonna do the 10k. And I said, when you veer off, I bet we start together and then you'll veer off 9k, and I'll be like, Dawn, I'm coming with you. And I'll be like, no, you're not. I mean, I think it's a really sensible idea. We've also talked about um the race the following month at Stoner Park. Which is I'm deaf, yeah, I'm hoping good for. Well, that and that's the whole point. If you if you limped, literally, limped around 25k, then you probably would damage your ankle for the next four or five months. Whereas build it slowly, I mean you haven't been running on that ankle since Gobi, and that was what, March?

Dawn 4:44

So No, I ha no, Gobi was in June at the end of June. Oh, right, so So I started and I have got back to running, but every time I push a bit too much, it grumbles.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

So I've had to back off. No, I just think it's the right decision. You're still, as you've said, still gonna have a nice day out. All that race prep that you love, the whole experience of being at a race, you know, the camaraderie that we've banged on about that you know we love talking about with being with other people on a race, and actually you are allowed to enjoy it. It's your hobby. Well, that's why this is gonna be a real head noise for you, secondly, potentially long-term damage, and you're still gonna get the oh, I've had a race, get a medal, have a nice time.

Dawn 5:29

Yeah, and the thing is, Maverick was very easy, it was so easy just to change my entry. No bother.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

So that was great, because you never can run this race uh you know s fairly strongly, because you know, it's a shorter distance, you can run stronger.

Dawn 5:45

I think if you were doing that 25, you'd be thinking it would have been so I'm pleased with it. My coach has ever been so good in helping me come to these decisions, he's adjusted my training plan, he's kept in touch, and he's bring brilliant. He's you know, um, so yeah, all in all, that's good. So I'll be I've rested it now totally for a week. I'll go back. I'm gonna tr run tomorrow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Um and that's what a good coach should do is help you make those sensible things.

Dawn 6:18

He's been really, really good. He's just he's brilliant. Um so what about you?

Becky’s New Coaching And Speed Work

Dawn 6:23

You've had your first week back at big school with new coaches. Oh no, I know. Have you have the first question for me to you who hates routine, hates authority, hates being told what to do. Have you stuck to your plan? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

And I was so I was so I was so keen to stick to the plan because, you know, first day, first week, and there was a whole load of illness in my house last week. I felt sort of a bit rubbish rather than full-on ill, just under par, a bit groggy. Um, you know, yeah, I was a bit, I was extra doing more snots out my nose as I I always do snots out my nose.

Dawn 7:05

Well no, no, I don't. I didn't notice it when I ran with you. It turns my stomach if I'm honest, Becky. I'll say it now.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Sometimes I forget where I am and I'm doing it in the waitress. Well you did it, yeah. No. Oh, I do it all the time. It's called a farmer's hanky. No. Don't do it now. Anyway, there were some bigger ones last week, is what I'm saying. Um, and I'm sorry, I didn't know I offended you and I'll run. I do it all the time. I just have to gag a bit when you do it. Oh Yeah. Now that I know. Um anyway, so uh yeah, so I did do one bit last week, and they said you shouldn't have done that if you were ill. But they have got me doing um so I know they think I'm quite slow, and that's good. You know, there's no point going to a coach if if you don't need one, and I certainly would like to do different types of races. So not I've come out the mountains now, and I'd quite like to do races a bit faster. And so they've added a lot of strides in, you know, you do an easy run and then you uh I go out on the road and do strides. But I did post a video on Instagram of me doing I had the dogs with me. I was doing like pogo, like the butt kicks, the A steps, you know, like all those Kenyan runners do it in a really nice group. Dogs were going nuts. One of my um school mum friends said, What are you doing, like Easter bunny or something? Because I was like doing these pogo hops. The dogs were going nuts and barking at me, and but it's you know, for ages, I have just gone out and run, come back and stopped. And I know I'm supposed to, you know, my previous coach has obviously said to me, warm up a bit, yeah. But this is I said to them, please put in an actual routine of warming up and and sort of cooling down. And certainly there is a lot more uh of these strides and fast running. Oh, I had one session that was sort of eight minutes, uh is it lactate? So you're not at threshold, it should be sort of half marathon pace. And when I first got into running, I used to train all round here on the try and still on the flat roads, and I was training myself, so I didn't know how to do it properly, so I wasn't doing long runs, short or fast ones. I was just doing everything and trying to run at my marathon pace. I have dropped off a cliff in terms of speed work and VO2 and all this. So I found running even for eight minutes at a sort of I think my heart rate was supposed to be 155. I found it so hard. Really, really, and I might have been ill as well, so I don't know. But yeah, that and I, you know, reading that Damien Hall book, um, it does say because you see, I it it's hard, isn't it? This whole who do we listen to? I remember going down that route of 80-20 training, which is all about 80% slow, and I think I've got into that because it got so slow, walking the hills. Um, and Damien Hall says it's all about the aerobic fitness, and that is the base on which all other running is built. And that if as we get older, if we don't keep our speed up at points, not at all the time, yeah, just certain points in your training, you will lose it. It's the 20%, probably. I've dealt yeah and you're absolutely right, and I haven't been doing that 20%.

Dawn 10:23

No, because we've got to that 80-20 rule and we've enjoyed the easier bit, we back off. But yeah, his is is that use it or lose it, basically, isn't it? With the speed.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

I don't uh yeah, I I sort of I honestly dawn, if I saw somebody running around here or on the roads quite fast, I honestly would be thinking, Well, you're doing it wrong. You're supposed to be running slowly. And I think I just had in my I think I was doing 99 to 1% as opposed to 80-20.

Dawn 10:50

So yeah, so I tell me about your strength. How's that gone? Because you've got a totally different strength.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Yes, I've only done one of it, and then it but we're doing a lot to build my Achilles. Um I've come away from CrossFit. Um, I mean I think CrossFit made me sort of fit over the last year, and you know, I looked a little tiny bit chiseled. Um, but I'm working with uh Pete Stables now, Pete and Holly Stables, and he's um giving me some strength work, which is you know, it's just that's just at the start, but lots at the moment on um building up my Achilles and giving me good advice, like I have to do a video. And I was very painfully like getting the barbell on my shoulders and then stepping backwards over a Lesmil's little bench, and then starting to squats, and he went, Yeah, turn around. He said really simple. Yeah, he said, You're gonna kick yourself here, but that as we get heavier, that's really fucking dangerous. Don't try and walk out. So that's good.

Dawn 11:52

So you send them videos of what you've done, and yeah. So I suppose he's looking at your form and all that stuff. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Yeah. And how often are you doing your strength? I think I've only got it once a week at the moment, but then he's doing some exercises every other day to get these because I've got really I know it's genetic. You've either got calves like Jack Realish or you haven't. Do you know who Jack Realish is? With footballer, yeah. Yes. It's got very big calves. I um I've got very puny calves. So um but I noticed Courtney Dull Water has as well, and she's quite a good runner. Yeah. So but I just have a few yet. Yeah, I just think that I I'd could I'd like to get a bit more chiseled and muscly, but I'm in their hands, don't you know. Right. If I do what they if I'm space I'm just gonna do what they tell me and the you know, this is all working towards the big race next year, Hundred Mile, try and finish it a bit faster. I'm still quite I s I think I've I'm quite tired from OCC still, but they seem to want me to crack on, so.

Dawn 12:53

Yeah, and you're do you're doing your recovery well, you're eating well and you're making sure you're resting and sleeping and so.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Yeah, you know, my I wear an aura ring. Yeah. So over the summer, when you would have thought it was a bit easier, I was in a two and a half hour deficit, sleep deficit all summer. Whereas now I've got no sleep deficit.

Dawn 13:14

And do you know what I see this? There was a lady I was speaking to the other day about this, she said something really similar. That why now my children have gone back to school, why is it worse? And I said, Oh, are you going to bed earlier at night? The difference, when we go to bed, uh you know, you get the children, you make sure they're settled, you got back into a routine, you're going to bed. That sleep that happens earlier in the evening is so much better for that. I love going to bed. Oh, I love going to bed earlier. That's me. I'm such an early night person. Um, but you'll be getting going to bed earlier and getting up earlier. So you're so you know, your recadium rhythm will be so much better.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Yeah, it is better. And what I told you what this morning, my recommendation.

Dawn 13:57

Yeah, silk. See, I thought now, so Becky, this I got a message off Becky this morning saying, I highly recommend a silk pillowcase.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Oh, I said I've got a good recommendation for you. And I'm like, what?

Dawn 14:10

What? Because I was talking about how rubbish my sleep is lately. And you sleep, well, how the hell is a silk pillowcase gonna help my sleep? But I all I hear is that people have silk pillowcases to not ruin their hair.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Is that right? Is that why I've got really good hair? That's why I've got such good hair. No, and I find them very nice and snuggly, so anyway.

Dawn 14:32

Yeah. So so there we go. So that is your update, and it's going well. And you ready?

SPEAKER_00 14:39

You know, I am I am just saying, I'm in their hands. I I know that I think I'm running harder and better than I typically would now. I mean, I had such a funny last year, Dawn, because I came back from racing the planet Greece with that terrible in, you know, my whole lower leg had blown up. It was what, you know, they couldn't believe it wasn't a stress fracture. It was very boring, but it was bone sheath lining, but it was very swollen and you know, I had big fat cankle. And then I was on crutches for a while and I didn't run. I was off running till January. So I only started training for the OCC in January. We came back really slowly from that injury, and then during the summer I got the Achilles thing, so I stopped training. So I overall I didn't do much training for that OCC. Only well, January.

Dawn 15:26

You did lots of hiking, didn't you? Really?

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Yeah, I did two big weekends, a weekend in the lakes and a weekend in Chamoli on the core, but but I didn't do I I don't know. Anyway, this time last year I I was injured, and I think left at my own devices, I would be guilty of thinking, oh, I've still got the OCC in my legs, I'm not gonna push it. Whereas Holly's like, no, you're not, you're out, go, keep going. So Yeah. Great. Seems to see what she's doing. So that's good. Now, Dawn, have we that's a very long you could I haven't even looked at the timer, 15 minutes. Have you got any news this week, Dawn?

Midlife Women Showing Up In Ultras

Dawn 16:04

Yes, I have. So I um the one thing that it was a statistic that I looked at the other day, um, because when we've spoken a lot on our detectives about where are the midlife women women, and basically the 2026 World Masters 100k championships, the largest women's age category was 45 to 49. Hmm. That's really good, isn't it? You know, that's 13 women at that, in that that's the that was the biggest bracket. So while we talk about women disappearing from sport as they get older, ultra running is slightly different. It's telling us something different. So in other sports it disappears. So midlife women aren't necessarily disappearing. Some of them are running hello running a hundred kilometres in the world.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Is this the races where you get picked for your country to to represent? Isn't that so?

Dawn 16:56

Yeah, I think so, yeah. I like it.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

I like it when they call it masters, because that's an American term, isn't it? For we call it an ultra runner. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas veterans is a terrible name. Yeah. Masters I always think is a nice but that's the age group I've always thought, 45 to 49, is very, very strong for ultrarunning.

Dawn 17:18

Yeah. Well they see that, don't they? The longer you get. Because you've got the experience and I see a lot, I work with quite a few runners that come out of they've been fast runners in their day, not ultrarunners, but maybe, you know, like their 10k specialists or half-marathon specialists, and then they switch as they get to their late 30s, and they can't be competitive in that field, and they switch to ultra running. And it's I mean it's a real change. The mindset change has to really ch be very different. But you see, su they can have such another career, really, after being, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

So yeah, it's very exciting to see that. That's just really good. Um, there was, you know, you know I'm reading that Damien Hall book. There's a lot in there of people who've gone from from exactly that when you can't when the body can't do that explosive short power anymore. Yeah. Um, and then from that to marathons, um, and it's the natural move into ultr-running, which always used to be the sort of sport for midlife. And now we've got these whippersnappers coming in, like I saw in Chamony. You know, there are loads of really young, really fit-looking. Well, we we talked about this, some of the women looking a little bit too slim. Um, but there was certainly in Chamonix there are a lot of younger runners. And I've got friends whose um sort of 18 to 25 year old children are now uh or young people are taking up ultra. Right. I don't know many. My my message to them is sort of bugger off. Yeah.

Dawn 18:53

But we need them for the but yeah, we don't need them running the races we do, but they can run the other races. Because we need them for the sport.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Yeah, need them for the sport, but it's sort of our thing, so we found it first. You're so childish. I am a bit, yes.

DNF As Data Not Identity

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Right, so introducing the topic of DNF and DNS. Is there any little abbreviation, Dawn, but it can have a big effect on the psyche, can't it?

Dawn 19:22

Oh, totally, totally. So the thing that I find interesting, it is three letters DNF. And that's all it tells us. It doesn't tell us whether somebody ran 10 miles or 90 miles, it doesn't tell us whether they were injured, vomiting, could be hypothermic, timed out, mentally exhausted, whatever, or just what went wrong on the day. All it says is DNF. But emotionally, we turn those three letters into something enormous. We go from I didn't finish this race to I failed. And sometimes even I am a failure. And I see that so often, I see it even, you know, I don't just mean in my work, but people I know in on Instagram, you know, um, and I DNF the DNF and the failure are two totally different things. I DNF'd a race is a fact. I am a failure is a story. So I don't know, what's your experience?

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Have you Well, I mean, it's funny, isn't it? DNF. Yeah, I mean it it it's so um word, it's it's so sudden. It's so um uh you know, is it final almost. What's the word I'm looking for? No, I can't think of the word. He's doing this, don't we? You often can't think of the word back then. Oh, it's it's anyway, it's brutal, is the word I'm trying to say. Right. It's so brutal. It's too brutal. It's got no, you know, I wonder, I I mean, I think we should keep it as in the sport, but it could be medically medically removed from race or something.

Dawn 20:57

In the eventing world, they have different abbreviations for what's happened. So for example, if it was a horse fall or a rider fall or elimination, or it's not just a DNF.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

No.

Dawn 21:09

Horse's fault or rider's fault. Well, fall. Or fault, not fault necessarily. Um or it could be elimination or whatever. Yeah. And they so they have certain letters.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Well, I've had two DNFs, and personally, I mean I'll at some point I'll I'll say what happened in both of those, but I definitely was comfortable in those being DNFs. If I had dropped out of my big race this summer, which we've shared about, and there were points on that. There was one point particularly where I did think I wasn't going to make the cutoff, the final cutoff. I definitely, the word failure sort of went through my mind in terms of I really, really don't want to DNF this, but I Do you think if I had DNF'd because I hadn't made the cut-off, I would have felt not would I have felt a failure, I would have felt like I'd failed in I really wanted to achieve that. So that would have been a very, very strong emotion and you know, I'd have talked to you and got over it and you know, but I I would have that would have felt very different had it happened, as it happened it didn't. Whereas the two that I did DNF in um were in my crazy the first six months of 2023

Becky’s UTS DNF And The Seed

SPEAKER_00 22:30

when I entered.

Dawn 22:31

Well, Becky, now you told me earlier all those races that you entered.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Now, just read out for us. Yeah, this is how not to do ultra running. And I I was being coached by a very, very nice man called Sam, but he was a triathlete coach, and also I sort of said, Well, I'm doing them when I want to do it, but I don't think he knew to say you can't. So I did Spine Sprint in January, so that's 47 miles, but it's through the night on the Pennine Way carrying a very big pack. Centurion Hundred Hills, which is 50k around where I live, which is very hilly. The South Downs Way 50 miler. That's all which one came first? I think that was first. And then I DNF'd the UTS.

Dawn 23:15

Which is real was that the 50K? Yeah, which is a really tough race.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

One of the toughest races, I think, out there. It is. It's it's along the lines of the OCC.

Dawn 23:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

And so what happened on that?

Dawn 23:28

But who entered that was your oh those races, by the way, was over a six-month period. That is it's insane. It gets worse.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

There's one more. So what happened with the UTS is I um I it all I was feeling ill on the drive up to Wales, wasn't feeling great. I had a shitty little hotel room, like really nasty, and I didn't get a good night's sleep. I don't think I ate the night before, wasn't feeling particularly well. So it was a it was absolutely everything was going wrong. It wasn't one thing. And I can remember filling my flasks in the morning, and I think I even it was either I used the wrong tap or the cold tap was sort of warm, and I didn't really care. So normally you'd be like, no, this needs to be right. And so I went off with horrible lukewarm water. Um, got to the start of the race, and I just was sending. I mean, I I look back now because I've done that race and I have completed it. And the fact that I stood there half-heartedly not feeling great, I mean, I now know what that course is like. It's so you know what how you need to feel to complete it. I mean, you need to be on absolute tip-top condition to go to do it. Yeah, it's so tough. And um, and then I said we're this is all anything I was gonna say about this, is that moment. So I started off all right, and I actually bumped into a guy who I'd met um sitting in the cafe in E-Dale before the spine sprint, a guy called Jeff, and he saw me on the race because I was wearing my spine um buff. And we were chatting, and he was saying, Oh, this is gonna be a hard race. I hope we get in front of the cutoffs. And I was like, What the cutoffs? I mean, I had done no prep. You'd be horrified, Dawn. I'd done no prep on it. I didn't know the only thing I knew was that the only part near a race near a road was Penny Pass. So you go up Lamberis Path to the top of Snowdon, you come down the pig track, and that is well named because it's an absolute pig of a descent. And it was that moment, halfway down, that I thought, I'm really floundering, and I was feeling really lightheaded. I hadn't eaten properly, and then I fell quite not badly, but I fell off the track. It's quite a nasty descent, and I tripped and then really rolled off down the bank a bit. And then I really slowed down, and it's that moment, and I wonder if people have had this, where it enters your head, well, I could drop out. And I think that's as soon as that seed is sown. Yeah. So did you carry on much further after that? So what happened was it was a really, really hot day as well. And I've carried on for a bit, but I was slowing down so much. And if anyone has walked or run down the pig track, it it is tricky. It's a nice absolutely awful. So you've got to watch all your footing. I was letting everyone come past me. I'd slowed right down, and then I just thought, I I know, and it was the absolute sensible, you know. I did those first three races, spine sprint, I did really well, hundred hills, I raced pretty well. South Downs Way, I did okay. Um, this was obviously way too many, you know. So my body had had enough. Plus, I wasn't feeling well. There's even if I'd been on top, you know, if I wasn't feeling if I was not feeling ill, I don't think I'd have finished it, because I'd my legs were done in. Um anyway, got to that, you know, Penny Pass. So it's the bit where there's a road. I thought if I don't drop out here, I will be, you know, up into the mountains and waiting for the pickup. So I just nipped into the loose there and basically got on the bus queue. And it's really weird because one minute you're in a race, and the next minute there's all these tourists around, and you're standing with them on the bus queue. And I saw this guy, you know, other runners coming past, and this guy's saying, No, come on, you know, and I thought, well, no, you have no idea what I'm feeling right now. Where, you know, what I'm what condition my body is in. But mentally, it's that phrase, isn't it? Mentally, I had checked out.

Dawn 27:23

Yeah. Right. And it was obviously the but you knew after that that that was the right decision for you. I think we're good. The other thing, it's like, I don't think you should minimise how upsetting a DNF can be. You know, for some races, if you think about like OCC, you know, you've trained for six months, you've organized your life around the race, you've spent money on it, you've told everybody you're doing it, and you might have covered an enormous distance already during the race, and then your result simply says DNS.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

DNF. Well, this is what happened in the next race. Well, that's what I'm saying. For for UTS, because I've done so many races, I wasn't as emotionally engaged as how I prepare for races now. Was that I I have my A race. And I was like, oh, well, actually, we didn't even have that. You know, the coach I've just been working with would always say, which is your A race for the year. When I was working with this first coach, you know, there was none of that.

Dawn 28:19

It was just But you learned so much from the mistakes. And that's what ultra runners tend to do. It's we learn from our mistakes. And I see now, you know, when I first started, you know, when we were doing the podcast or first first first started talking about you doing OCC, I see actually how organised and prepared you really are. You do put that work and you've done and now you're gonna be training harder and you've got all that knowledge and skill from what you've done, your race prep is good.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

And that's what I mean. Had I DNF'd in Chamonix this August, I would have been devastated because of the. But what if you didn't Yeah, you would have been devastated totally. Absolutely. Whereas whereas when I DNF'd that UTS, it was like, ah well, I've got another race, because then what happened? So I'd already done that, was my fourth race of the year. All of those races should I mean hundred hills you can sort of slot in, but all of those should be maybe only within a six months, you know, you shouldn't really be putting anything else in. Then I was finishing my undergraduate degree, and then honestly, this is the truth,

Spine Challenger Chaos And Calling It

SPEAKER_00 29:28

this is the truth. I looked in my diary and was like, oh Christ, I've got the spine challenger next week. I mean, that's crazy. That's not prep you want to hear, is it? No, it isn't. So but you've learned and you've moved on. And it's so then I'd I'd pitched up at the Spine Challenger, and that went really wrong. I remember getting there. Oh no, that was the that was the water bottles. That was the forgetting. That was the first of all, I forgot my water bottles. Then on the morning of the race, my car alarm was going off. So you park your car at E-Dale, and my car alarm started going off. And it was because the key or something had run out of batteries, but it's quite stressful because I'm about to start a race. And I couldn't just leave the car there with the alarm going off. I can't remember what I did. I think my brother was coming up to track me, so he sorted out a key or something. But what you've just said before about sometimes you can have gone quite far, that race is 106 miles. I dropped out at 65 miles.

Dawn 30:24

I just had a that's a big part of it. 65 miles is a massive long way.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

I I ran to Hebden Bridge and then I'm I dropped out on absolutely everything. So again, it wasn't like, you know, my ankle flared up or I fell. Basically, what very quickly I got to Hebton Bridge, which I found, which is as far as I did on spine sprint, so same course along the Pennine Way. You're allowed to have a little nap there. So I sort of lay down for a couple of hours and stupidly charged my devices on my own charging pack as opposed to plugging it in. So I did not have enough battery pack to get and you have to run, don't you, with a proper navigation thing because it's because it's unmarked. So you've got like one of those big, they look like big walkie-talkies, those proper navigation things. They're quite expensive. No one wants to buy one. I've got one, I don't want anyone. Um so I had all that. Then uh I was getting a few blisters, I was tired, and then there was a storm coming in and uh trying to think of so there's the big mountain that you have to go over. Penny Gent, is it? Which one would it be? I'm not sure. Yeah, and I was like, I'm not very good at remembering which one it is. And I just remember thinking, and my brother was messaging me, he said, that's oh that and this is it. When I'd looked at all the YouTube videos, because it's a summer spine, you know, people were having a ri I'd pictured me lying in a meadow in my little bivy b in my little bivy bag and having a little sleep. But it was pissing down. It was absolutely pissing down. And I think it was when someone said, if you're lucky, you'll find a spot in the Mardale public loos. Yeah, forget that. Paid 350 quid to sleep in a toilet. And I just thought, so you know we sometimes say, Dawn, that the reasons races give up is feet, faffing, fueling, or the other one for me is fuck it. And I failed- and so I remember Scott Jurek, who's a famous American runner, said the races he has DNF'd is when he just suddenly thought, I don't fucking care. So and I that's what happened to me. I just remember sitting down thinking, I don't really care if I finish this or not. I just I and also not only do I was feeling that, but I definitely had cocked up on the navigation stuff. I didn't have enough batteries for either my phone or the navigation device. So you knew that was going to cause you an issue. So you probably the weather was coming in. Oh, a different. And what's so weird there, one minute you're running on the Pennine Way and you're eating just your gels and that. And then you what's weird about the spine is that you can buy food along the way. So you can go in and have a really nice pub lunch. And then you so you're one minute you're like, you know, on the course, and then I just was having this lovely steak or something, and then I just rang my brother and thought, I think I'll just drop out. And so I did. And then we went for a nice curry and whores and a nice BB, and it was, you know, drove home.

Dawn 33:21

Yeah, four was good.

Resilience Versus Stubbornness In Ultras

Dawn 33:23

Yeah. So I mean, the other thing is sometimes during a race, one of the hard decisions, um, and I think it is really you see it in ultra running, it's the decision is you know, to stop or to carry on. When is resilience a really good thing, or when is it just stubbornness? Because we celebrate perseverance, don't we, so much in running, particularly in ultra running, keeping going, don't quit, find a way, one foot in front of the other, all that. But those can be brilliant qualities, but there are situations when the brave decision isn't to carry on. A bit like your if you think of your decision there, it would have probably been foolish to carry on without the proper navigation. It might, you know, so making the decision because you've got an injury that could, you know, I've seen it with people before, they've made the decision to carry on and they've ended up with quite a long-term injury, or they've become really unwell, or the rest of their years running is ruined because of it. Um they think, you know, it's safety matters.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Well, safety matters. This is the thing, because when I I I remember when I first got into this, I think people say, well, what happens if you drop out? It's like, look, it's not like the London marathon. Then if you pull your hamstring, you pull up, you just go to the side. Yeah. You know, it like, for example, the UTS one, had I not pulled out a penny pass where there was a bus, and in fact, I got a taxi, um, best 20 quid I've ever spent, um, you know, I would have been out in the mountains again. Okay, there'd be lots of other runners, but I'd have had to have waited for the bus to go around Pennine Way, Dawn, at night, you know, I mean, then on the spre spine, you're on your own. You're on your own for long periods of time. And you're self-navigating, it's pitch black, you're up to your knees in mud and got a big pack of your it's I don't feel scared in those points. I mean, I'd look back at it, it's I must it's quite full on doing the spine. You know, that on your own. And it's a and that, you know, that so like you say, it's it's some people, it's not like we're in a 10k and think, oh, I'm gonna see if my knee holds out for a bit more. If you do that, and then your knee does hurt, but you're another 10k into the forest or into the mountains, yup, yup, there's no one else there.

Dawn 35:34

When I when I did the UTS, I always remember coming down, you know, towards the end thinking, right, I might just make the cut off. And somebody had taken a fall in front of us, and quite a nasty fall coming down. I mean, I'm tottering my way down very, very slowly because I'm terrible coming down. And this guy fell and they had to get, you know, they couldn't even get medics to him. They had to get, we had the whole we were stopped, and we had to wait until the helicopter came in. He had to be helicoptered off. There was no other way to get him off the course. So your timing. They didn't adjust it at all. But it actually, if no, they didn't, and uh we uh we ended up waiting for like 30 odd minutes. But hang on. So this because this happened to me on the I wouldn't but then I I I mean I didn't make the I was a bit out I was outside of the time, but I wouldn't have made I'd sort of mentally checked out, but I did keep going and I got through to the end and I got my medal, but it was classed as a DNF because I hadn't made the cut-off time. I was just at but but what would it matter to me because I wasn't doing it for a snow.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

Okay, but I'm just sorry, I'm not gonna let this go. What would have happened if you had finished 29 minutes over the time limit and you were held for 30 minutes?

Dawn 36:51

No, no. I I they would have had to have looked into it because we were held. It was just like you could well you couldn't ri they asked you to wait, you know, there was no way you couldn't get past. It was impossible unless I'd have climbed down the rock face and gone around. No, I but I think And there was a good maybe 15 people held.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

They must have um, yeah. Well they didn't they I mean that it's a horrible thing to say, but when I was in the spy race, this guy I'd got across a little river bit and then he fell. And then there is that point, you think, oh fuck it. You sort of think, uh now your immediate reaction, of course, is is he alright? And then because I sort of retraced my steps and you know, he he wasn't badly injured. Then this woman came running down. I mean, she was just on a weekend run and she said, I'm mountain rescue. I thought, oh my god, thank God. So she said to keep going. But you know, there is that thing. What do you that's another topic, isn't it? If you're out on a race, somebody for of course you've got to stay next to them.

Dawn 37:46

But have you already and that's that's that's ultra-running etiquette, trail running etiquette, isn't it? That you do stay and look after somebody and make sure they're safe. That's known, that's in all the race rules and everything. It does say that, yeah. You don't just skip over the bodies and keep going. No, you make sure they're safe and looked after and you notify someone or whatever. But yeah, um, I think sometimes the brave decision is calling it. You know, I remember a runner recently who was doing a really big long run and she was struggling.

The Dark Place Tool And Resetting

Dawn 38:16

She knew she'd check the weather, the weather was coming in. She made the call to pull out. It was a really wise decision. But what she did before she made that decision, she called me. We had a chat about it. So she felt, and that's what helped her after the race. She felt like she called you during the race? Yeah, we I do that with I I'm called, we have it, it's in their mindset toolbox. I'm their dark place tool.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

You're my dark place tool, Dawn. Yeah.

Dawn 38:42

So if if I'm the you know, no one is allowed to DNF unless they've spoken to me if they're one of my clients. Very good. So so that it's What about the phone reception though? God, that's quite well a tough shit. I get really cross I get really, really cross. I had it with um our lovely Lynn, who did um one of the spines. She did the sum spine subsp. I know she did. She did it this summer, didn't she? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

And she got just kept going.

Dawn 39:14

She but she was very close, and we had a we ended up having a tag team on the telephone for us, you know. But it was just you have but she was remarkable because she did what I said. I said I spoke to her and said, right, I want you to do a mental reset and a physical reset, but obviously you do the physical reset first, because that almost end the So I always get somebody, please, please don't DNF until you've spoken to me. Because it the apart from I might tell I'm not going to talk you out of a DNF ever. I wouldn't do that. But it will mean that you've made an informed choice and part of the recovery from a DNF knows that you did all the things that you should have done. Because if you you don't beat yourself up then afterwards. Yeah. Uh so that helps. Um and also is I'll just say to them, right, don't if I know they're safe and they're not at day in danger, I would say to them, right, take time to do a physical reset, get some food in, you have a rest. If you need to deal with your feet, a bit like you did in OCC, you stopped, you dealt with what you needed to do, then you almost mentally were okay to carry on. And then I would say, right, then call me back and we'll run through some mental stuff. And by the time this woman called me back, yeah, I'm good to go now. Whereas if she'd have made we all know our emotions change in moments, don't we? Feelings change. If she'd have made that decision there and then to prep DNF, she'd have regretted it. So it's always good.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

We have a dark place tool. I mean, it's the it's particularly for a long, arduous race like the spine when you know sleep deprives. There's nowhere to act because people always say to me, So do you actually sleep on these races? So the rule is on any ultra, no, there is no sleep unless you really want it. But they I know in some really long races, some of the aid stations have little camp beds. Yeah, yeah. So you can grab a little, but it's not like you run one day, you all go to sleep, and then you run the next day. No, people drop, they have dirt naps, don't they? They can't wait to get it. Some people, some people might not run, you know, literally won't stop and they'll do the whole thing in whatever many hours. Um but that does make total sense that you don't make a big decision when you're tired, hungry, lonely, feeling shit, you know, everything. You need to sort of refresh and have a chat with a a colleague or a you know, a training coach or your, you know, a mindset coach.

Dawn 41:32

Just somebody to check in with. If you know, if you don't, you know, for people who don't work with me, it's like having somebody who is your dark place tool checks in. And you can always run through with them, you know, if I call you at this point, just get me to look at it. Because one thing that comes after a DNF, the horrible bit comes where you might ask yourself, could I have actually carried on? Yes. And that question can torture people. Yeah. So what if I'd eaten something? What if I'd waited another 10 minutes? What did I give up to early? So having that dark place tool can help with that. But also, if you have DNF, the one thing I would say to somebody is you're judging those feelings now based on the information that you've got now. You're warm, you're not starving, you're fruit, you know, you've eaten. But remember you were cold, you're on the side of a mountain, you were vomiting. You made the decision based on them. So I think it's very hard. Well we forget pain. We forget Yeah, we do, totally.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

There'd be no more that people would only ever have one child if we were and we would only enter one race. I mean, that's what I was thinking in OCC when I was on that bit. I was telling you about like the three really sharp climbs on that 17k loop. And I remember thinking, yes, you are feeling. I mean, basically, what was I feeling? Out of breath, and my legs were tired. I mean that when it really drilled down, that's what all I was feeling. And that's going through the mental hill. Just get up the hill. But I d I remember thinking what you've just said, Dawn. I remember thinking, you will regret so much if you don't if you don't, if you drop out because you didn't get to the checkpoint. So just shift it. So I don't think I ever thought I was gonna I didn't I was never gonna drop out of that race. I was going to struggle with the cutoffs. I mean I not the whole bloody feet thing again. But it is that horrible little click in the in the in your thinking. Once you sew that seed, yeah, and it's just that little thought of I could stop. I could stop, or or or in my case in the OCC is shit, I'm not gonna make it. That that's horrible as well. Because then that's a different thing. Yeah, see, I would hate that person for saying because again, this is where you say those three letters signify the same thing. Did not finish the race.

Dawn 43:44

You could have been one minute over the time.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

Yeah, but it could have been because, you know, you wanted to drop out. It could be because you were crapping your pants, it could be because you were vomiting, it could be because you've cut your knee open, or it could be that you really tried and you ran as fast as you possibly can, but you still Still didn't get in the cutoff. So, you know, they're all different reasons, and sometimes we really want to still carry on.

Dawn 44:07

That can still be a huge success. Somebody could run a really, really long race. Like I still see my UTS, even though I didn't make the cut get to the end of the cutoff, but they still gave me the medal and everything. I still see that as a huge success. I didn't have any about me not having a DNF. I had nothing, because I'd reframed it before I went into it, that I knew it was very difficult for me to make that. But I wanted to be able to do the whole course. That's why I recorded the route. So, you know, even if they pulled me, I'd carry on. So, but to me that was there was no I was it was still a huge success. And I know other athletes out there that have had, they've not quite made the cut-off on a really big tough race, but they've these tend to be longer or tougher races, and they they're still thrilled with their outcome. For some people, they can't understand that. But for me, it it genuinely.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

It's a very individual, but I I I always think with uh ultra races, and it's and it's what I did my undergraduate dissertation was why do we do them? And it's mainly for the experience. It's not for the result. I mean it's not. No, it's not, but it's not for the time, it's not for the getting a PB. It's no such thing as a P B because you've got to have exactly the same course and exactly the same conditions. Well, everything. Yeah. Yeah. So it is for the experience. And as we've said, in the moment, so you know, and when I finished OCC, Emma said to me, Did you enjoy it? I said, No. And hated it from beginning to end. I absolutely hated it. And there's that funny clip on Instagram of this woman saying they're saying this, this woman is they're asking her, Do you like running? No. Are you good at running? Not really. Have you ever won a race? No. What is your hobby? Running three races. But it's like, but it's like, when was I mean, some races I have enjoyed when it's a bit look back at that South Downs way? I remember walking along and chatting with a woman for about an hour, and my coach at the time said, What are you doing? And in fact, my current coach said, Well, if you do that with me, I'll also be pissed off. So I am sort of racing them. But it was more the experience. But um, yeah, so I mean, as we were saying, the whole thing with DNF is it can be a brutal, savage three little letters that can mean so many different things.

Learn From A DNF Without Shame

Dawn 46:23

One thing that I really want to cover, because I notice we've managed to chat for ages already. I know, we haven't done DNS. One thing, just to give something useful, yeah, DNS I think will have to be another time. But one thing is I'd always say to somebody is once the emotion has settled, then you can actually ask yourself, okay, what what happened? So, for example, if a race has gone wrong for you, when you come back and you let those emotions settle and you get over your big disappointment, it's really worth then exploring, okay, what factually caused that DNF? Was it that I wasn't fit enough? Was it that I was too dehydrated? Was it I hadn't done my nutrition right? Was it I didn't know the course? Understand that if you're going to go and come back. And that's one thing that I often my most I would say 60% of my clients come to me following a DNF. And we always go through and we break that DNF apart and we work through what caused it, and you know, they might go back and do that race again. Um so what was wrong? Was there a decision I made during the race that I could have made differently? And so what can you learn from it? Um or was it just genuinely a bad day, which sometimes it is? Um you don't have to manufacture a profound lesson from every DNA.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

No, you don't, but I do think ev I mean I've learnt so many different things on each race, you know, right back to the first race when I it was a hundredk and I thought, oh, it's only just over two marathons, I don't think I need my head torch. I finished it in 19 hours. I thought I was gonna do it. So it's the learnings.

Dawn 47:57

Yeah, it's the learnings, isn't it, that you take. It's only seven hours out. You know, just so the hot a quick recap of this is always think during a race, look after the person first. Look after yourself as a human being first, treat yourself as you would your best friend. Food, fluid, warmth, sleep, and safety. Mm-hmm. That's the first thing to do. And then if you do have your DNF, get curious, not judgmental of yourself. What actually happened? I like that. Was it curious, not judgmental? Very good. Get, you know. Was it inside your control? Was it not? What could I have done differently? And decide what this means. Don't let the first emotional story become the first final verdict. There may be a lesson, or it may simply just like I say, have been a bad day. Um so and don't rush to fix it. Sit with the emotions. So if you're beating yourself up after a DNF or a DNS, which we haven't really covered, do not start, did not start, which I've had a few of, by the way. And I've got a really good story for, so we'll have to do that another time. Well, yeah, that is a really good story, actually. Um I I would just say, ask yourself, if a friend told me this exact race story, what would I say to her? You wouldn't say to your friend, oh well, actually, you're a bit of a failure, a bit of a shit runner, you're not an ultrarunner, you're useless. You'd but you'd you'd say, like, wow, you've done amazing to get that far, or whatever it was. So yeah, that is DNF in a nutshell. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

Yeah. Um I love that. There's lots of really good advice there, Dawn. And it and I just think it's interesting that a lot of your clients come to you after that because they see it as a mindset thing, potentially, rather than a physical thing. So you can't do that.

Dawn 49:41

Well, well, actually, yeah, and I think this see, because the physical and the mind, it's just all, you know, a bit like if I start working with somebody, it's like, right, have they got the right coaching place for them? It's not just all mental.

unknown 49:54

No.

Dawn 49:54

The mindset is a holistic approach to training. In fact, which will brings me on to uh there's something I'm going to discuss in our next episode in the news section, which I've just done a bit of research about this brilliant paper that's come out, which is um it's like a meta-analysis of loads of the grit we need to be an ultrarunner.

SPEAKER_00 50:12

Well, is that Holly?

Dawn 50:13

And I think it's really quite interesting because you know, do we have to be mentally tough about that? And that it's been quite fascinating, actually. I'm still ploughing my way through the bigger article a bit.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

Well, you'll have to send me that because I'm starting college next week and I do my big research project this year. Right. Actually, we'll need uh female midlife ultra honours to be part of my study. I've just thought good. Yeah, there you go.

Listener Notes Next Week And Get In Touch

SPEAKER_00 50:40

Dear listener. Um, right, before we wrap up, Dawn, we've got a very quick mention um on our Dawn and Becky investigate thing. We haven't approached uh we've had other stuff to do this week, but we had our lovely listener Sally got in touch with our Instagram to say that the Cornish nice stripey jumper and wetsuit brand Finistere, she said, don't do use midlife models. I've had little and I can picture their adverts, and I think they do, but I couldn't find anything on there today in my um sort of little move around their website. I mean they're not a they're all the lifestyle brand, but you know, good for them if they are. Um couldn't see any evidence on that, as I say just now, but uh thank you, Sally, for getting in touch. We do like it when people leave reviews and uh are I've read some lovely reviews. Our listener, one of our listeners is in Australia, I think we've view it in Australia, but Helen from Australia, who is not a runner, but wants us, she loves listening about ultra running and wants us to talk more about kit, because even though she doesn't buy the kit and she's not a runner, she's intrigued by all the kit we buy. So we'll have to do a bit more on that because we're gonna. Yeah, we need to do a bit on kit, actually.

Dawn 51:50

Um we can't. There is we have got another lady in Australia called Helen also, who is is does do ultra stuff. She is a friend of mine. It's not that Lady Helen. It's another, we've got two Helens in Australia.

SPEAKER_00 52:04

Um and uh also when we put stuff up on Instagram, we had something the other day um where I'd been saying, What was your long run? And I'm really pleased I did that uh Instagram question because it gave my dear friend Leifa the perfect opportunity. Because I said, How long's your weekend run? Mine, I don't know, mine was like 11k. Hers was like, oh, it was in terms of time, that was it. And mine was 90 minutes, five and a half hours for Leifa. That's crazy. What race is she doing? So she is uh I'll say it here and now, she's promised to come on. So Lee Leifra and I met uh at a recce for UTS when I finally did do it. Um, and she's got a story on that. She broke her ankle. There's a DN DNF story. Right. Coming down coming down the pick track, actually. Oh she is sh so she is doing them bad for it. Oh god, she'd probably tell me off for telling anyway, she's doing a big race. I might say when it's she might not have uh she might not have said, but she's doing a race coming up, and that's why she was doing a big run. She, I hope, will come on whether she will be successful, I'm sure. She wants to come on, and she's a very, very good runner, so she'd be great to get on.

Dawn 53:09

And if you know, if any comments are out there. Oh, sorry, Karen.

SPEAKER_00 53:12

I was just saying, also a shout out to Charlie Freeman. Oh, said a full name. She did a 4K weighted fest walk, and so you know, good for her. It's all you like to hear, it's all it's all part of the same thing. We all do a bit of walking.

Dawn 53:24

Everything, it's really good. Um, oh yeah, and another shout out while we're doing this. Is it a shout-out? I don't know. I don't I don't like that.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

A hello to.

Dawn 53:33

A hello to uh a lovely listener and friend who um has done an amazing big swimming event this weekend and at the serpentine in London. I don't know the exact details, but she's done absolutely amazing. That's to Lisa. And she's really challenged uh we're gonna have Lisa on the podcast because she's done some amazing challenges this year. She's done lots of ultra runners, but yeah, this was amazing what she's done.

SPEAKER_00 53:59

My sister swims in the serpentine. I just can't think of any work. Right. No, we've got uh we really have got to wrap up. This is our longest episode ever. So next week is our last in the series. We've we've decided we're gonna have a series because that's what other podcasts do. And we've done.

Dawn 54:12

Well, we're gonna if people want us to, we'll come back and do a second series. Maybe people don't want us to. Well, I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

Um I enjoy it. Uh anyway, we Dawn and I interviewed um the lovely Kristen Togemeier, uh, who is the director of the Her Ultra Film available on Amazon and YouTube. I urge you to watch it, it's a fantastic film. Uh it was a documentary about um women running the 250k uh Racing the Planet Finland race. She is uh we've done the interview, she joined us from California, and we are gonna get that sharpened up and hopefully broadcast that next week. Then we'll have a break, uh, and then we'll come back again. Yeah. We don't know how long the break will be for.

Dawn 54:56

We haven't even talked about all this. We'll see. Probably a week. It depends how how kind Becky's coaches are to her. She might be exhausted.

SPEAKER_00 55:03

But we have got lots of ideas for things coming up. So thank you as ever for listening.

Dawn 55:08

Yeah, and if anyone's got any stories or has got a brilliant story they think they want to come on and stuff like that, please get in touch.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

Yeah, especially on the DNF front. I mean, I was honestly, Dawn and I were gonna talk about DNSs as well today. That's gone it's an emotive subject, so anybody wants to come on and share about it, let us know.

Dawn 55:27

We're just organising as well some really good coaches to come on and talk, and some physios and some experts in other. So we're just setting all those up for the next season as well. So that's going to be really useful. It won't just be us.

unknown 55:40

Yeah.

Dawn 55:41

Mainly us. But they might be bored of us now, Becky. Yeah. I'm not bored of it though. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_02 55:50

Bye. Bye.