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Parenting Tools
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Parenting Tools
Parenting Tools EP 2 - Using games instead of Timeouts
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Every tantrum has a window before it becomes a tantrum. In this episode the guru breaks down how to spot that window, the arms crossing, the shift in mood, what she calls "the funk", and how to redirect it with a game instead of a consequence. Push-ups, laps around the house, the quiet game, a timer the kid can actually see.
Then Ian puts her on the spot with a grocery store scenario and finds the limit: once you've set a boundary and the kid crosses it, the game stops being the tool. Plus the night she gave one kid "one more chance" and spent the next three months undoing it.
She raised six. He has none. That's the dynamic.
We're finally ready. Oh my god. After all the technical difficulties, we almost gave up on this episode. Or I almost gave up on this episode. Guys, welcome back to another episode of Parenting Tools. Yeah. Tools to raise good kids, turn them into better humans. And as always, my name is Ian. I'm joined by the professor, or as the guru, as everyone likes to call her. You should call her the guru in the comments.
SPEAKER_00Please, please.
SPEAKER_01That's embarrassing. The only operator of all these kids' ideas and how to raise them. I am a single dude, so I have no idea what I'm talking about. But I'm here for you. I'm here for the viewers. I take always the side of the, you know, parent. I'm always going to the side of the parent, and then I like to push the conversation that way.
SPEAKER_05He's annoying.
SPEAKER_01So I am annoying. I'm annoying for you. I put a strain on our relationship for you to make sure that you know all the answer questions you have, we answer them. Or try. So it's it's that that's the dynamic we have. And today, what is the topic for today, Madame?
SPEAKER_05Well, we're gonna look on how to use like games instead of if you want to change the behavior of a of a child instead of doing sort of a punishment. How when can he use a game and what kind of games can you use in order to change their focus of attention?
SPEAKER_01Okay, so I asked, you know, I tried to find a couple of videos on this. It's tough.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I asked AI, and it gave a good distinction or definition. So this is what Gemini came up with. Gamification and redirection are highly popular, true and tried parenting strategies shared across subreddits like parenting, our dad, and our toddlers to stop unwanted behavior without resorting to constant yelling or power struggles. Instead of saying stop doing that, parents use games to pivot a child's energy towards a cooperative, positive task.
SPEAKER_05Yes, that sounds like something that I could have said. It's just way better, actually.
SPEAKER_01It's just like way more precise. Did you use this with us?
SPEAKER_05Of course. Yeah, lots of times. It's like it's one of the easiest ways to change the focus of attention. I mean, so many kids, all you have to or so many times with kids, all you have to do is change the focus of attention. Even with a timeout, that's really the goal. You know, can can you change their where they're where they're at? So they're back in their awesome behavior versus their pouty behavior or whatever they're in, the behavior you don't want. So it's a great way to not constantly give them a timeout or another consequence, or constantly being like the police who just tell them no, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_01You know, do you have a story? Um I'm demanding this time. I'm like, you got a story? You got a you got examples?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, one good story is like, you know, doing something against the clock. Let's say if you don't want to, you have a kid who has a hard time.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's a task. That's not a story. I want to know about like us. Like, did you use it? Was there a time where you used it against or against use it on me? Yeah, use it against us. Last time we talked battle mode, so I'm like against now. Um, but you know what I mean? Like, was there a time where it was like, oh, you know, this time Micah was doing this, and I was able to get him out by doing this, or Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_05I mean, constantly. I used like to give me push-ups, give me 10 push-ups, run around the house. Uh, remember all those when you had to run around the house instead of uh doing uh something else? And not like inside the house, the whole house, and then and then you went once, and if you still were in the funk, I call it the funk, the mood, whatever, you know, then you had to go again, yeah, you know, until it was gone. And it was like much easier than putting you in timeout, then you have to fight me against the timeout because it's kind of still fun to run around the house, you know. And if you have high energy kids, which most parents do, because kids are just high energy, you know, those physical um exercises are great. Also, run up and down the stairs if you have stairs somewhere, or like um give me 10 push-ups or 10 jumping jacks, or you know, there's I mean, I use those all the time, and I could it's a it's a way of uh breaking the behavior the kind is at. So the kind of behavior he's in.
SPEAKER_01Oh, because you said breaking the behavior the kind is at. I think you break the behavior the kid is at.
SPEAKER_05The kid is in a certain behavior that doesn't work. You can feel it, you can see it. But there's always like a window of opportunity where you can get in and actually distract them enough not to fall into that behavior, and to see that window of opportunity and to get in right there and do something like physical is a great way to work with not using constantly um I call it punishment, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, okay. So on that, we have one of your favorite videos that you like to use to just analyze not exactly how the behavior works, but where that kind of timing is where you can jump in and actually do a correct behavior.
SPEAKER_05I just think it's a fun video too.
SPEAKER_01It's an old, old um it is an old video. So please, for those watching, uh please, you know, just bear like give us some grace, okay? This video is old as this is like, yeah, it's old. Okay, we're gonna watch it now, right? For those of you who can't see, the kid is taking the bag of candy, putting it in the stroller, and dad's like if you heard that, you know exactly what's going on. Kids run around tearing the uh child apart. At the end it says use condoms.
SPEAKER_05It's too late for that, obviously.
SPEAKER_01You played too many games and now you're figuring it out.
SPEAKER_05No, but you can see in the very beginning of the video when the kid starts just crossing over his his hands, and he's not in the tantrum yet.
SPEAKER_01But he's giving you a warning.
SPEAKER_05He's he's looking at you, and you know what's gonna come, but that's your window right there.
SPEAKER_01That right there.
SPEAKER_05Right there. That eight. Right there. You have to get in and say, okay, time out. There's always like there's always a window like that. So the earlier you can get in, the better. You know, it's it's like once he's on the floor just throwing a fit. I mean, it's like, oh well.
SPEAKER_01Then you give you give them to somebody else, it's somebody else's problem, then you just give them like give them away.
SPEAKER_03Just pretend it's not your kids. Exactly. You just walk away.
SPEAKER_05No, no, I mean, uh obviously you have to handle it, you know. You sit with them or whatever, let him go through because he's in it, then it's most likely no no matter what you do, you're not gonna get him out of that. He just has to go through then. But there in the beginning, there's actually a window where you can get in and change his behavior. Okay, what would you do?
SPEAKER_00What would you do there?
SPEAKER_05I uh a time out, or maybe I would say, Hey, I mean, I see where you're going. Let's see who can get over there first, you or me. Okay, who is first at the at the at the ice cream boot.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so now my turn play devil's advocate because this kid is old. He's like nine. I would say he's like nine or ten.
SPEAKER_05He's not nine, he's six. That kid? Yeah, well, you're not a parent.
SPEAKER_01Well, okay, he's six then. But like, he's old enough to know what the hell he's doing. And like, I can easily imagine that if you say, Okay, let's see who can. Well, you gave a terrible example. Let's run to the ice cream booth. He's gonna be like, Oh, not ice cream, yeah, ice cream, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, you know, like it's uh but let's say you gotta run to a thing.
SPEAKER_05But like that could be one thing. I could also say, look, you really want those? You wanna you wanna get those? Let's try after uh again tomorrow. If everything works well and tomorrow we're gonna come back, you can get them, but everything needs to be but I want them right now, then uh that's not gonna work, you know. That could be one approach. I I would try different things, you know. It also could be a timeout right there, and then say, I see what you're doing. You're just about going to throw a fit. Great job, it's really smart, it's not gonna work. So here you come. Come on, sit down right here. If you do if you do it really nicely, I let you pick up one thing at the store that's not sweet, and you can decide what that is.
SPEAKER_01Ah, see, that was like that was my next part because you're like, Oh, if you do the timeout nicely, I'll let you put something out. Because I was like, if this kid gets put in timeout with the way he reacts, he's gonna explode anyway, right? So he's gonna have that temperature.
SPEAKER_05Not necessarily, yeah.
SPEAKER_01If you you but you you bribe him.
SPEAKER_05I bribe him all over, you know, because I I I see I also acknowledge what he's doing. I say it's smart, it's not gonna work. And I tell him you do a timeout, and if you do it nicely, you can pick something which is not sweet and you decide what it is.
SPEAKER_01Something that you like if you're being good. But that's it's it's it's an interesting, like only when he does the negative behavior that you don't like, then you say the timeout, but you offer something and he does like. How do you make sure that that doesn't become like a thought process for the kid where they're like, oh, I have to do something that they don't like for them to put me in timeout to promise me something that I might like, then you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it it could be, yeah, but uh, I don't know. I mean, it's the usually I don't think they're working that complicated, you know.
SPEAKER_01So they're smart, but they're also dumb. Kids are smart, but also they're not like they're not gonna remember. You tell them like we'll have it in an hour, they don't remember what was 30 minutes.
SPEAKER_05If that happens, then you have to change that. You know, if that becomes a behavior that they use all the time, then obviously that didn't work.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_05I mean, I've done so many things that didn't work, and I had to correct them because that's that's the that's the daily thing. You try a tool and it doesn't work, so you have to find another way to deal with the situation. It's that's normal parenting. It's not just like here's a tool applied and it's gonna work. It's like you have a tool built, you know, and you try a tool, it may work. Great, and it may work on one kid and not on the other one.
SPEAKER_01So just because we're talking about gamification doesn't mean that it's like always going to be the go-to when kids act like this.
SPEAKER_05It's just one of the things it's like, it's just one of the things, and it's such a good one. And there's so many games you can do where you take yourself out of the picture. Like again, the one one really good I liked was the the parent who had a uh a picky eater, and she would just take an hour to get over the food, and you know, and and the the one lady said, Well, what I did is I said, Look, I started, I bought a timer, I put it on, I said, Look, uh, we have 20 minutes to eat, and you have 20 minutes time to finish your food if you're not done in that 20 minutes. Well, I just take the food away. Okay, it's fine.
SPEAKER_01So, what were your favorite go-to games?
SPEAKER_05I like the timer. I like having a timer because it takes you out of the picture. The kid doesn't have anybody to attack. He's running against the timer, and kids like to win.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So if they they're here, they win against the timer.
SPEAKER_01But also, timer is easy. You have that on your phone.
SPEAKER_05You have them on the phone, and they're everywhere. And but it has to be where he can see it, where the kick kid can see it. I like a timer where actually he can see it and say, Okay, and even if he can't read, yeah. He's like, Oh, you man, you have three minutes left. Go, go, go. You know, then it becomes like, oh yeah, I can do this.
SPEAKER_01Got it.
SPEAKER_05Whereas uh, you know, if you're just on your watch, they don't know if you're cheating or not.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, oh, I would cheat like maybe half hour. You got 30 more seconds, bud? Because I don't know what 30 seconds is. Like, this has been so nice, it's been so quiet. What else? What else? What other games are you like?
SPEAKER_05I love the quiet game.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god, we played the quiet game so, so, so much in the car. Everyone talks about childhood trauma. I'm traumatized from the childhood, the quiet game. Like, I don't want to be quiet in the car anymore. I will use it when I have kids for sure. Like, but yeah, it's such a good game, man.
SPEAKER_05You know, it's such a good game, and they sometimes they have to play it for half an hour because well, you know, as someone keeps whispering. So many kids, and one of them would fall in, and then the other one's like, Oh, I won, I won it. I want to win. Okay, let's try again. And it was just dead quiet. It was yeah, I it was heaven, man.
SPEAKER_01How would you launch into the quiet game?
SPEAKER_05Well, I just said, you know, I mean, hey guys, show play a game, and usually playing a game is fun for them, you know.
SPEAKER_01So um I feel like it was usually in the car.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, usually in the car. We usually don't didn't have to play it at home, you know.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it wasn't because the house was huge and we were at trampoline and a pool and all that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it could just throw you outside, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Loud as you want.
SPEAKER_05But and they have to have outlets too, you know. You can't play the quiet game all day long.
SPEAKER_01That's neglect.
SPEAKER_05But in the car, it's just a great tool, you know. And you could do, okay, let's play some games. Maybe you do a little bit like my I see with my little eyes. Oh, I spy. I spy, yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's a good German. I see with mine eyes.
SPEAKER_05That's a good one. Or, you know, um, who can find more red cars, or you know, I mean, you make it up, you know. Find who can find the biggest sign that has an O in it, or I mean it depends on the age of the face and everything. I mean, but you make it up. I mean, just so they get distracted and have the attention outside on something else, and it's fun because they're doing something now. So the games in the car I really enjoyed because we didn't have like entertainment in the beginning, you know, before we had all those videos.
SPEAKER_01And then when the entertainment came in, boy, did we get everything. We got the TVs, we got the Game Boys, they're like, whatever, six kids in one car, like hell yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, long trips, man. Heaven, heaven. So but it's also but you guys weren't spoiled watching them, so you know, now the kids have them 24-7. Yeah, that doesn't work. It's a little bit too much.
SPEAKER_01It's it's I I like I will say I see the tablets. Like, I think this is a completely different like podcast, but I see the tablets. I'm like, you know, I think there is a time and place for it. Like, if you really need to get something done, then bust them out and then let them be zombified for like 10 minutes and then go do your thing. But like, yeah, it's it's it's but like it's amazing.
SPEAKER_05You see little babies already on the on their phones and they know what to do. Yeah, I mean, my crazy yeah. Alexander knows how to turn my watch on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Those little they're like two years old and like swiping through. I'm like, bro, why are you in my ass?
SPEAKER_03Change changing everything on your phone. I mean, two years old, you know.
SPEAKER_01It's it's like let's let's let's not get distracted. Okay. Uh, so what other games do you like? You like the quiet game?
SPEAKER_05I like the quiet game.
SPEAKER_01Uh I spy with my life for the car.
SPEAKER_05Pointing out little things and just make them up, you know.
SPEAKER_01You mentioned you mentioned one uh at the house that we used to do. I don't know if you if it was a game or if you just wanted us to run, but it was like uh laps, laps around the house. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Running around the house is a great one. Running up and down the stairs is a great one.
SPEAKER_01Um but there was also like like when you not to cut you off, but when you did that, it was also very specific, like goal, end goal for that. And it's when kids are still like you call it a funk, or you call it a funk at the beginning. But describe what a funk is.
SPEAKER_05Well, if they're if they're getting into a mood, you know, that the mood is where they start to um try to manipulate you, and you can feel it where they start pressing against you. And there is a is it it starts usually very lightly where they're not fully in it, and at that moment they're easy to distract into something else that's more fun.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, but like describe then the funk that they get into. Like what what is that? Like what what is a funk? What is a mood? Like, what do you what do you mean?
SPEAKER_05Where if you you can feel like with this kid, you know, when he starts to cross his hand and say, now I'm gonna get my way, basically. They want to get their way and you can feel it. They want to push against you, they want you to get engaged, and you can feel it. Yeah, that's a good time to actually have them do something else, you know, something that's fun. It's like, oh, let's see who can run first to the door and back ready, set, go, and you go, and you know, I'm at the end and say, Hey, I win.
SPEAKER_01And you know, I'm gonna be annoying because I'm gonna push it.
SPEAKER_05Well, that's your job.
SPEAKER_01So we need to because a lot of people don't know what that means when you say funk, when you say mood. I know what you mean, yeah. But like it's like for us, it was very clear that when you're like happy, go lucky, and then like you do the thing. So, for example, this kid asked for the candy, yeah, and then he didn't get the candy, and so he like shifts, like he goes from being super happy, go lucky, and everything is fine, to now I'm pissed off, now you're making me mad, I'm not getting the thing that I want, I'm gonna be mad. And like the mood of the funk is when the kid gets mad or when the kid gets sad and they actually change, like you can see them physically change into like this crazy. I mean, with some kids who are like worse behaved, like not not not like don't really have good behavior, it's hard to tell because it seems like they're constantly there, you know. Like they get, they sit down, they grab bread, they throw shit around and everything, and it's just like, oh, that's just how Tommy is, like, you know. But like, because I I think it's important because there's people out there who are like, okay, what what am I looking for? Yeah, you know, like we have to like what what are parents looking for when this to use this game to to avoid it? And for example, if we're running around, well, maybe let's answer that one first. Like, what do you what's the key thing that you are looking for there? The video is a good one, yeah, but like can you describe it? It's it's tricky, no?
SPEAKER_05It's very tricky because it could be it could have different triggers. You know, it's always a trigger, it's always something that doesn't go the way the kid wants it to go. In his mind, he wants it to go different. So, in order to change how it's gonna go, he has to use a manipulation. And the manipulation he has available is an emotional manipulation to push you to a different behavior than what you're doing. So, if that's is just is that clear? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So it's now you said I think you said it nicely where you said like the moment they try to shift into that manipulative, like uh it can, and that's it could be whining, it could be you know, it could be it could be screaming, it could be like arguing with you, it could be like, but why?
SPEAKER_05You know, like it's like negotiating, there's a lot of different gears. Trying to to get you to engage, yeah. And it's instead of engaging with them into that behavior that's not gonna, it's gonna get worse and worse, they're gonna get more and more into it. No, if you can get there in that wind that in the window of opportunity, I call it right in the beginning, and distract them for where they want to go into something that's more fun, right there, because they're not, it's not they're not in the the funk yet, they're not completely beaten into the apple yet. Right, they're still trying to buy it, but they haven't they haven't taken a bite yet. And there you can distract them into something that's much, much easier. Yeah, and you can just and and then they're not going into the funk, into their into the mood, into the manipulation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it's almost like the when they start doing the pre-threatening of the move. I know threatening is like a battle. Like that beginning, like when you can see them go, not going my way.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's like, oh, it's like not gonna now I'm gonna do whatever, and then it's like, hey, can you do can you do more push-ups than me? Ready, said go, and you start.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but then you gotta do the push-ups.
SPEAKER_05If it beats you, then you make up the game. I mean, it's your house, okay? You can't do any push-ups.
SPEAKER_01We're gonna do push-ups all day long, baby.
SPEAKER_05Or even jumping tracks or something like that's distracting.
SPEAKER_0110 mile ruck.
SPEAKER_05Or just I know, take a ball and say, let's see if you can catch it 10 times. I mean, that's more fun than throwing a fit.
SPEAKER_01Yes. If you get it in the right moment, if you get it in the right moment, it takes a bit of practice, and also like I'm always thinking of the parents out there, right? And the parents, like the well, the grocery store example is perfect because you don't have a ball, you don't have anything there. Yeah, you've got nothing. And so it's like, again, it as we're like discussing these things more and more. I think two things stand out quite clearly every single time, which is one, the training is not on the kids, the training is on the parents. Only it's on the parents. Like, you guys, you guys gotta get good at recognizing this shit, and that takes practice.
SPEAKER_05Practice, and you have to be kind to yourself because you're gonna mess up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're not gonna get it. No, of course not.
SPEAKER_05That would be bad, actually. I think you have to get engaged. Uh, don't worry about it, even if you're like, I mean, you're still gonna get engaged. There's there's no chance of not that not happening, but if you can reduce it instead of getting engaged 80%, getting only engaged 20%, man, that would be huge. You know, you're gonna have such a much easier life, and your kids are gonna be it, they're gonna be much more at ease.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_05The the funny thing is when a kid is in charge and he runs the family. Oh, it's super uncomfortable. It's super uncomfortable for the kid, yeah. And it's very stressful, yeah. Because they're constantly in charge. And a two-year-old or a five-year-old or ten-year-old shouldn't be in charge. It's stressful, you know, and doesn't create a safety, they don't have a safety in account because anything goes. It's like there's nowhere boundaries. It's like it's it's it's it's stressful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So if you have you actually do your kid a favor if you set up boundaries and firm boundaries, boundaries are only good if they have consequences. So you have to have consequences, boundaries. And we can talk about that another time.
SPEAKER_01That'll be another time. It's just so the the first thing is like it is the parents. Like, you guys gotta practice this. And like the practicing you can do by just re listening to this and going through and saying, like, okay, how do I what's the main thing? First thing, don't get engaged, but also second thing, don't try to. Do this in a grocery store with for the first time, right? Do it at home.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Home is like you have to get it right at the base.
SPEAKER_05In the grocery store, if you actually see the window of opportunity, I will go in first.
SPEAKER_01But you would. You would know you know what you're looking for. Yeah, but no. You know, if you go fishing for the first time, you don't know what fish is.
SPEAKER_05People who look at that, they say, Oh, yeah, I see there's a window of opportunity. I could go in right now.
SPEAKER_01Some people will see this. Some people not.
SPEAKER_05If you do see it, go in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if you if you do recognize it, then recognize that your kids are, you know, doing that, then chapeau, because I think you have like a you're a lot more aware than some people because nobody knows to look for it.
SPEAKER_05I think parenting is so much about curiosity, being curious of what the kid is doing, where he's at, how he's pulling you. That's the most I mean, if you can identify that, that's gonna be a make a huge difference because noticing fixes more fixes a lot. You you notice things, and then next time he does it, you notice it before you get pulled into.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And you can actually feed back and say, Look, I mean, I see what you're doing, man. It's so clever. And if you tell that to your kid, and then you have after that, you maybe have the consequence, it's much easier for the kid to actually acknowledge it because he's not doing it consciously, it's a behavior he has practiced and put into the drawer in his brain. Oh, that behavior works. But if you start noticing it and you you actually tell them, he can see it too consciously, and he's gonna see, oh man, she actually saw that. It's just a game. Okay, next time I have to find something else. And don't worry, they'll find something else.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're they're gonna be good at finding other stuff. Yeah, um, so any other games that you like? You like the timer, you like the one I see here. This is uh you want to know what chat uh chat says as a as a game that you haven't mentioned?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, tell me.
SPEAKER_01Um slow motion race.
SPEAKER_05Oh, cool. That's cool.
SPEAKER_01No, it's like stop running and thrashing by challenge and move as slowly as a slot. That's like that's so good.
SPEAKER_05And then as fast. I mean, you can change it up, so it's really fun because it also should be fun for you.
SPEAKER_01But also your environment, you know. If you have like I would say if I was in the car, the the games that I really like are I Spy and the Quiet Game. If I'm in the grocery store, I could then try the quiet game again. But I think I spy would be a much stronger game to play there because there's so much stuff around, or the sloth. Because if I'm a parent, I don't want them running around and everything. I need them to chill, you know, I need them to stay. And then if we're outside and we're at the park and then they start giving me attitude, then I'm like, hey, how fast can you get to that tree? You know, how many jumps?
SPEAKER_05You adapt it to the environment and you make them up. I mean, the games I can give you a few, but the best ones are made up on the spot where you just come up with the game. Anything can be a game, you know? I mean, um, I don't know. Uh find 10 red things within two minutes in the store.
SPEAKER_01What about what about lying to your kids?
SPEAKER_05I don't like that.
SPEAKER_01No, you don't like saying, oh, we can't scream in here because the aliens are watching us, and if they do, they're gonna take you up to space. No, I don't I'm like, listen.
SPEAKER_05You do whatever you want, but I tried not to lie to you. I I think it's part of the relationship you want to build. You know, if you want to build a I I for me, it was very important to be truthful. So also when I was like when I lost it, I wanted to be truthful, and I was sitting with you guys and tell you know I really got mad, but it wasn't really your fault, it was just like happening. For me, that worked because you do every parent has to do that.
SPEAKER_01Flashbacks, yeah.
SPEAKER_05It's it's it's true, you know. I mean, it's like I think the kids don't expect you to be perfect, not at all. It's good if they see that you make mistakes too, you know. Yeah, it's like it's it's absolutely okay.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so now your favorite segment that we like to do, I like to do it's put on the parenting shoe. I don't know what we're gonna call this yet, but it's where I give mom a scenario, and she has to give the tools that she just used to execute. Yeah? So let me see here. You have a we've gone younger. Let's go older. You have a nine and a 12-year-old. Yeah. And the 12-year-old. Where should we go? We've been, have we done grocery store yet? I feel like we should go grocery store since well, I mean, we've we've I feel like we've done that as an example. Car. No, let's do a trip to the grocery store. Okay. A trip to the grocery store. You have a nine-year-old and you have a 12-year-old, okay? And we're doing a trip to the grocery store, all right? And the 12-year-old is giving you grief, all right? Wants to wear the blue shoes, not the red shoes, all right? And because the nine-year-old sees the 12-year-old doing this, guys. Again, I don't have kids, so I don't know if that's way too old, but like those are the ages that we're going. She's like, Yeah, way too old. Maybe not. Maybe there's some kids out there who are at that age who need, you know, like we don't know. So let's let's be let's be open for all these questions. All right. Red shoe, blue shoe, and he's giving you grief. He's like, I'm gonna wear this shoe, or I'm not going.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01It's at home. No, no, they have to go with you. No, you can't leave the photo arm. Can't? No, you can't. Them's the rules, lady. Okay.
SPEAKER_05Well, in that case, I said, look, we do need to go. I really don't care what cut what color shoes you wear.
SPEAKER_01No, you gotta use the God. We gotta use the tools that we're talking about. You gotta use gamification. Yeah, that other one works, but like you gotta give me examples for the shit that we're talking about.
SPEAKER_05Like, I mean, you have to you have to you have to fight the battles worth fighting for I don't care if you wear blue blue, you know.
SPEAKER_01Okay, indulge me. Like God.
SPEAKER_03That's definitely not a battle I will go into because well, you wanna you want like he is causing stress about it.
SPEAKER_01It's just it's not about the shoes, he's just being a dick. To be a dick, and he's like, I'm not wearing that shoe, blah blah blah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, okay. Then I probably would say, Okay, uh it looks like you just in a mood, you know. I have a great idea. I want you to start running around the house. I want your little brother to chase you, see if he can catch you. You have two seconds advanced. You can go two seconds before him, and then I'll let him go and see if he can catch you. Are you ready?
SPEAKER_01Said, go awesome, but now we're late to the grocery store. It's a grocery store now. That's true. 24-7.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that's true. Something like that, you know. I mean, I will be able to go there. Just to get him out of the mood. Yeah, to break that whole like once they're around around the house, and I would look at them and see, so the little one didn't catch him as a man, you almost got him, you know.
SPEAKER_01I think now the little one's crying. No, the little ones, but I want to catch him.
SPEAKER_05So then say, okay, let's turn it around, okay? Now the little one goes first, and the bigger one has to catch the little one. But this time the little one has four seconds or whatever. You know, I do it so he can't get caught, whatever. You know, I know the two, so and then it goes like that, and then they've run around the house two times, and most likely they're out of the mood.
SPEAKER_01They were in before, and they just say, put your shoes on, let's go.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, let's go now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, okay. So let's say that works. I'm gonna give you a benefit of doubt. Yeah, we got the blue shoes on. The nine-year-old also got blue shoes on, wants to be like his big brother, and then they're in the car. Okay, car is um cars bad. Car's mama, mama, mama, mama. Did you see when I was running? I scraped my knee. Mom, my knee, mom, my knee. It's bleeding. You want to play a game? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if I can because my knees all scraped up, but I'll do my best.
SPEAKER_05Well, I don't know. I mean, last time your brother won the quiet game, you want to try again?
SPEAKER_01Ooh, that's a good one, though. Like, say that the other one won, and it's like going down. That's why you shouldn't have one kid. You gotta have someone to fight against. And else they're gonna make imaginary friends, and that, trust me, you need another like physical human there.
SPEAKER_03Imaginary friends of Lydia.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god.
SPEAKER_03Who had to go pee one time?
SPEAKER_01So just like we're we're gonna do a little like small segue to a story that's hilarious. Our my smallest sister had this friend, Sarah, and we were on a road trip, all of us in the car, all eight of us in the car. And she goes, pull over. And then dad goes, You have to pee? And she goes, Yeah. And we open the door and she sits there and we're all looking out the door, and she just we're like, Leah, go. She's like, No, Sarah has to pee. There's no one named Sarah in our family, like nobody. And we're like, What? She's like, Okay, she's done, you can close the door. So we pulled over so imaginary Sarah could go pee. And my dad hated to pull over to go to the bathroom, and so that was yeah, epic, epic. So, made it through the car. Now, grocery store already played the quiet game, you know, they've they're they're okay, they're getting the stroller, you know, they're being kids, not like uh like they're not gonna be perfect, but they're kids, right? Yeah, so now um in the grocery store.
SPEAKER_05Okay, before before we go into the grocery store, because they're seven and what is no nine and twelve. Nine and twelve.
SPEAKER_01Well, they act like 46 and 30.
SPEAKER_05They acted a little younger, you know, in that well anyhow. So we we before we go in, we said, okay, you know, we agree on a certain behavior in the store, remember? So the behavior I want is like you can't pick anything up. Other if I don't ask you to pick it up, then it's great. But if I don't ask you, you you're not allowed to pick anything up, okay? And we're gonna go through this and you guys are gonna behave. And if you don't behave, then we have the consequence that we always have, which is we're going home right away, and um I don't know, you don't get uh dessert.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Which is a nice way of thinking about it.
SPEAKER_05Now consequences in advance.
SPEAKER_01That's okay, which is fine. I'm telling, like, this is this is good, but I feel like that is a skill that someone will get from the practicing. Well, uh huh.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, you don't do it the first time, but even the first time you can do something like that that is really and pick something that's that they really love, you know. So if you're good and you go with me and we're doing this quick and without interruption, then there could be like then we go out and get some I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Uh 10 minutes of tablet or whatever.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, or whatever, strawberries or whatever, you know, then you get a watermelon. Then we buy a really nice watermelon and we go home and we cut it in pieces and put it in the fridge. And then for dinner, after dinner, we can have like watermelon ice cream or whatever. Homemade watermelon or something, something they like. I mean, you know your kids, you know. I don't know your kids, so I'm making this up.
SPEAKER_01So it's just like I don't know your kids, so you can't put me in the corner here.
SPEAKER_04It's very different if you know the kids because then you know what's you got a 12 and a nine-year-old, and one doesn't like blue shoes.
SPEAKER_01You want blue or red shoes, okay? That's what you got right now, all right? So you're gonna give them a like uh little pre-warning. Like, uh, listen, uh I know you came for me, but I I brought you into this world and I will take you back out. Is it like that, or is it more like no? No, no, it's just kidding.
SPEAKER_05It's not like that. I I don't, I don't, I mean, I can tell you that the story that where I really messed up with my um parenting, and we it was a situation like that where we went somewhere and we agreed on the consequences.
SPEAKER_01Give the details of the story.
SPEAKER_05We um had an appointment with friends of us to go to the movies, and um there were we had to drive, so it was like a half an hour drive to get there, and uh it was a movie I wanted to see. So we went over in the car, we went over over the behavior, you know, not being rude, no fighting, all the things that we usually do before we go somewhere. And I said, and the consequence is one of us is not um following the rule, we're just gonna go back home because that was usually what we did, and I was pretty good at and it happened too.
SPEAKER_01Trust me, when you got the car pulled over for all five of your siblings, like it was like prison, man. They were like, You suck, like can't you be quiet next time?
SPEAKER_05So we went, and you know, I mean, of course, um my colleague Ian here stepped over the line. I don't know, something very minor, but it was a stepping over the boundaries, and I really did want to watch that movie, and we were already at my friend's place, so I said, Okay, Ian, this really didn't work, but I'm gonna give you one more chance. And man, I lost all my kids that evening. Everybody needed another chance, and then for the next three months, I had to work on being on building the trust because every other word out of my kids were can I have one more chance? Because it worked one time, it's gonna maybe work again. It took me three months.
SPEAKER_01We were like synapse aliens, like we heard one like guys. She gets one more chance now. No, no, the guys we can get away with more.
SPEAKER_05Three months I had to fight back for them to trust me that what I say would also be done. So it was it was a hard lesson.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no more chances now or never no more chances. I also like you you kind of brush over that point, but I feel like it's a good one. Like it's also a tool and a pre like the pre-discussion before you go into places, yeah. Because sometimes like people just unload the kids from the car and they expect them to behave without telling them what's up. Yeah, you know, like you can you can tell your kids what's up, you should tell your kids what's up. Like, hey, last time we're in the grocery store, you are a nightmare. If you do that again, this will be the last time I bring you with me. And if you be if you're cool, then when we go home, we're gonna get like we're gonna get watermelon and ice cream. Oh, but like it'd be cool the whole thing, and that's it. Like, easy.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's that this is cold, and we're gonna go into that in another uh episode. But this is this is one of the best ways of um doing it because here what you said, you set the boundaries before you go into whatever you're going into, and the boundaries have a consequence. So once you're then in the situation and the kid steps over the boundaries, it's not you on the spot trying to find something to correct it, it the kid actually picked the consequence, right? So it's not you being the bad guy, yeah, it's the kid picked.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it's very different.
SPEAKER_05It helps you, it's it helps you to stay out of it. Yeah, because you just like I mean, you also have to accept that they sometimes pick the consequence, yeah. And you have to be okay. Don't set a consequence with in my case where we're gonna go straight home. I should have picked a different consequence there. You know, pick something that you're actually gonna do. It's like you can't say, you know, uh if you do that, uh you're never gonna go back to the beach if you live in the beach. You know, it's not gonna be a consequence. Never ever.
SPEAKER_01You're gonna live inside your house, your room. You're never coming out, you'll never see the sun again.
SPEAKER_05Pick a consequence that you actually can do, and that you will do, and you know, so yeah, that's very, very important. Do something you you have you're the parent, you're the coach, you can set up the way you want it to work, you know. So do it so it works for you.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so here we go. In the stove, you've explained what's up, what's not cool, and little Johnny Blue shoes is uh grabbing candies. Like, ooh, this one I want. And the nine-year-old sees that and looks at you.
SPEAKER_05Yep.
SPEAKER_01So what's up? What are we doing?
SPEAKER_05I say, okay, well, you picked up the candy, please put them back. And I really um like that blue shoes or with the red shoes. Sure, we'll go Johnny blue shoes. The the the older one I really um appreciate that you didn't grab anything. So you're still gonna go, we're still gonna go home, and you're still gonna get the watermelon. But little red shoes won't get the watermelon now.
SPEAKER_01Okay, we we need to say so. The 12-year-old has grabbed the has been the day. Okay.
SPEAKER_05Oh, the 12-year-old, okay. But he doesn't get the whoever grabbed it, it's like, okay, put it back.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's the 12-year-old will be blue shoes, and the nine year old will be red shoes. Oh, well, whatever. It's a 12 and nine-year-old.
SPEAKER_04This is more complicated. I can't remember who wears water shoes because I really don't care what shoes they wear.
SPEAKER_01The 12-year-old, Johnny blue shoes. I don't even remember if it was blue or red. So it's the 12-year-old. He grabs a candy and is like just puts it in the car.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Straight in.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you just take it out and say, nope, that's not what we agreed on, remember? Yeah. So now um red shoes, nine-year-old, you very well. You didn't pick a candy. I appreciate that. And Johnny, you just tried. That's okay because we agree.
SPEAKER_01I want that.
SPEAKER_05That's too bad because you're not gonna get it.
SPEAKER_01What are you doing? We had the chance there. I gave you the window of like before going in the mood, and now he explodes. He goes crazy. He's like, Want throwing shit around because we didn't detract him with a game. He's too old. With a game, I don't care. We need to give examples.
SPEAKER_05But that's God.
SPEAKER_01Like he is too old for that. It doesn't matter. We have to give them an example of what to do. God, I gave you the kid in the store. That's right.
SPEAKER_05If it would be my kid at a 12-year-old, we said, no, another like that. We agreed, we have a consequence. I don't give him a game at this point because I already this is a different approach now.
SPEAKER_01I gave you to give him a game because you literally said that the candy was a good point to then give them a game and distract them. And I gave you the exact same scenario.
SPEAKER_05But with a 12-year-old.
SPEAKER_03Oh my god, who cares? There is a difference between ages.
SPEAKER_01Make him whatever fucking age you want. He could be a lizard for all I care, okay? He could be an embryo, he could be a dolphin, he can be a shark. It doesn't matter. Same scenario, same candy. Now what?
SPEAKER_05Well, then you can do whatever you said before. Pick 10 red things right here. Who can pick which one of you can first show me 10 red things? But see what why I don't want to do that because we went to a different approach now. We had a consequence in advance on how they're gonna behave in this in this in the store.
SPEAKER_01Right, but can't you use games?
SPEAKER_05Not if you have another consequence for the whole thing, because otherwise it's confusing.
SPEAKER_01You don't want to have them like, okay, they grab it. Let's say Okay, maybe the grabbing the candy was too far. Right? Because he already broke the rule and set the consequence in place. But let's say he's being fussy and really wants to grab a candy and keeps like, oh, but I really want it, can I really just get it? Can I get it? Can I get it? Can I get it? Can I get it? Can I get it? Yeah, you're there.
SPEAKER_05Okay, there I could do something. Because yeah, but why I went in there with the consequences because you have another word. Yeah, because and you you you you broke it and you nod your word if you didn't start the game.
SPEAKER_01So it's more important for you to say, like, okay, no, that's what I said, that's what I'm gonna do, and that's it. Otherwise, um Yeah, literally what we just did second chance. Yeah, second chance.
SPEAKER_05Um then I do a game instead. No, it's a consequence. We agreed on it, it's easy.
SPEAKER_01Oh, right, because then you use the game as like, oh, instead of the consequence, I'll just do the game. Okay, that has so many layers to it. So I because I didn't understand that I had gone a step too far. You clearly had understood that he had already broken. So I went to the point where you he had broken the rule that you had set, and you said, Okay, no, the consequence now stands. Yeah, so we need to go and have so that's too late if they go and grab obviously it's too late because you already said that they're not so.
SPEAKER_05That's not the what we agreed on. No big deal, because we had agreed that what's gonna happen if that happens, and you just pick the consequence. Yeah, that's what you want. Okay, so you want no ice cream. That's cool by me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but now he's being fussy. He's like, Oh, can I can I just get I just want to get this? Like, but just let me get this. Let me go, let me get let me get let me get this one. Okay, but like if I can get just good, you know, that yeah.
SPEAKER_05Well, that's still not so you would like I uh what I what can I be?
SPEAKER_01What can I give you?
SPEAKER_05It's still there.
SPEAKER_01You can distract with a game.
SPEAKER_05I could I could say, hey, remember what we agreed on?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but also like yeah, hey, remember what we agreed on? Okay, cool stuff. Why don't you show me how slowly you can go from this aisle to that aisle?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and you could do maybe you could do this and say, remember what we agreed on.
SPEAKER_01You just guys, if you need parenting tips, call me, okay? I'll let you know.
SPEAKER_05You just about you're very close to breaking it. So let me see. No, let me help you. Who can first pick out 10 red cans in the store? You or your brother, or something like that. You know, you could do that.
SPEAKER_01Which is also a terrible example because now you're having them touch all the stuff, running around touching everything when you said specifically find 10 red cans?
SPEAKER_05No, they don't find it, just see. They see, you know, like I see it again. No touch, no touch.
SPEAKER_01Got it, got it.
SPEAKER_05You don't go tell them pickle, go and see who can steal more strawberries or something either.
SPEAKER_01I mean, the grapes, the grapes are free game. Everybody knows those grapes out. Listen, that was always when money was tight, man. Every day, free cookies at Sam's Club.
SPEAKER_03Not every day. Every day. Yeah. So yeah. See distinction though.
SPEAKER_01It is like, it is super close. Like it is like for me, even just giving an example, I had already jumped across the boundaries of where the consequence kicks in.
SPEAKER_04You have to be a word. You have to that's the following.
SPEAKER_01Great, but like I'm literally sitting here talking to you. We don't have that distraction going on. And then it's like, oh, you just gotta find out when that's happening. It's like that's tricky shit. Like to know when when have they already crossed the line? When are they about to cross the line? What does that look like? And like how do you deal with that? It's it's hard.
SPEAKER_05It's just you have to be consistent, I think. I think parenting is about curiosity, being in your word, being consistent. Okay. I mean, if you're curious about where the kid is at, and then you you see you you you put up the the boundaries, you put up consequences, and then you be consistent with it. And then it's not that then it's that it makes it much easier because whenever you don't have like boundaries with consequences, you have to make stuff up at the at the spot, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Which is shit.
SPEAKER_05And then you become like the authority again, you know, and it's much easier to get engaged when you're the authority, you're like you're right and they're wrong, and you know, you're like uh you you have the rights to convict, right?
SPEAKER_01You're trial and jury and executioner at that point, yeah, yeah. Which is like for those of you with a complex, you don't I mean you want that, but for everybody else, you probably don't want that. So I'm gonna throw you a little curveball, okay? They're all curveballs, but let's say you have we go with my example. Grab the candy, put it in the thing. You say you're now not gonna get that. Yeah, kid crashes out, which means he's like throwing a fit because he's 12. We know 12-year-olds do that.
SPEAKER_03You know 12-year-olds do that.
SPEAKER_05I haven't seen many 12-year-olds do that.
SPEAKER_01No idea. So then in the store, like five-year-olds, yes. Cool. Like, but my example is 12. Uh, just you know, yes, a little old for that, but listen, like, we're we're we're we're accommodating to all children here. You can all, you know, all of them work. Um so then you what do you do then? Because you know, he is gonna have a fit. I mean, do you then in advance have a more intense no?
SPEAKER_05If he really throws a fit then there and then I'm probably just like have him go through, make sure he's safe and not hang banging his head, and then but uh with a 12-year-old, I I literally I I don't have it seen a 12-year-old doing that. But like pretend like it does, yeah. Smaller kids, yeah, you just make sure they're safe and go through the fit and then go. Yeah, pick them up and go home. Yeah, don't get any and don't make a big deal. He picked it. So it's not it's none of your business, really. I mean, he wants to show a fit, great. You know, you wanna you wanna do all day? Great.
SPEAKER_01But my question is then, like, if if if I if we have this agreement, right, and then we go through and he does it, and I give him the consequence and he has this fit, I will be chill, I'll let him sit there and like go through the stuff, and then we'll go home and then make sure I follow through with the consequence. But then I'm gonna sit him down afterwards and be like, hey buddy, that doesn't work. Like the next time you do that, it won't just be this, it will be this, and then there will be like you're gonna clean the whole house, like if you act like that in public.
SPEAKER_05Maybe not you uh if you do it in a kinder way, you would sit down in a good way because now you're engaged.
SPEAKER_01Because yeah, but also it's like you know, you have to like I feel bad for parents out there who have kids screaming like it's annoying for everybody, and it's like see it like I know, but what do you know about the consequence you picked is it didn't work. Well, it worked because he's upset that he's not gonna get it.
SPEAKER_05No, it didn't work because he Oh, he did it. Yeah, he did it, and and he he picked the consequence, it wasn't strong enough. So you know one thing, the consequence wasn't good. Okay, so you sit and say, Look, I mean, obviously that didn't work. You know, the consequence wasn't good enough. What do we have to do in order to make you not do this anymore? Well, what kinds of what kind of consequence do you need to pick? I don't know if you remember the baseball thing we did, you know, when when you played baseball and you got pissed off.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, I always used to get pissed off.
SPEAKER_05You got pissed off, and then what happened is you got so mad when he struck out, but he took it into the dugout and he kind of uh impacted his teammates too, because he couldn't shake it off.
SPEAKER_01And then next AoE effect.
SPEAKER_05Next time you went out, you were still kind of mad. So we sat and I said, Look, we have to find a way for you to. I know I understand that you get mad when you when you don't hit the ball, but you have to find a way to drop it until you can you can be mad until you get to the dog out, and there you have to drop it. What kind of consequence would we have to pick for you to act strong enough that you can drop it by the time you get to the dog out? And remember, we we we talked about it, and at the time money was important, so um money's always important, yes. So you said we we agreed that you would have to pay me five bucks, which was a lot of money for you at the time.
SPEAKER_01Still a lot of money right now, five dollars.
SPEAKER_05Five bucks if you got mad and took it into the dugout. So one game was good, the next game was good, the third game, uh it didn't work. You know, you got out again and you walked in there and you couldn't shake it. So after that, we sat and said, Look, man, it's it's it it worked for two games, but it's not strong enough. We have to up the we have to up the game. Let's make it seven bucks. And it was no, no, not seven bucks. It was like, I mean, Armageddon. It worked. Yeah, from that from that day on. You never had to pay me the seven bucks. You were able, it's like for you.
SPEAKER_01I was very good at hiding how mad I was.
SPEAKER_05But it worked because you didn't you didn't take it into the luggage. Right.
SPEAKER_01I was like, yeah, all good.
SPEAKER_05So that's that's that's how you know if the bat if if your um consequences work or not. I mean, if the kit breaks, it it didn't work. Right, it's not strong enough. Yeah, so you have to find something that actually will make it strong enough.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think that's a good place to leave it. Yeah, I think it's uh you know, good, good ending point. Um, like always, guys, if you like this, like and subscribe. And if you have your questions or anything like that, uh please leave them in the comments. And if you have good questions, then maybe it'll become a podcast. Uh, anything do you want to say to our if we have any questions?
SPEAKER_05Well, if you do have any questions, don't ask them to Ian, please.
SPEAKER_01She doesn't know that I control all of this stuff. So you can ask me whatever you want. She has no idea how this works. So ask away. See you guys.
SPEAKER_00Come on.