Sacred Sitdowns
Sharing one’s personal story is sometimes hard, but it is holy. Sacred Sitdowns seeks to allow a safe space for faith-filled conversations with members and friends of Geist Christian Church. Hosts Kyle Brown and Danny Gulden hope that all those who hear will be enlightened and inspired. Listen with us. You’ll be glad you did.
Sacred Sitdowns
Rev. Troy Tatum
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Rev. Troy Tatum has served in ministry all of his adult life. Diagnosed with ALS in January 2022, he recently retired at the age of 47 from Hillyer Memorial Christian Church in Raleigh, NC. He is a gifted musician, preacher, and storyteller. Troy joins us to share his powerful insights on ministry, faith, and the power of the church community as he and his family navigate living with ALS. He has just released a new album called The Journey is Our Home. Troy also shares one of the songs of the album on the podcast. You can purchase and listen to The Journey is Our Home on all major music platforms.
Let's tell you a story.
SPEAKER_00A story that will transform and light challenge and change the world. My name is Kyle Brown. And I'm David Goldworth, and we'd like to welcome you to Sacred Sit Down. A conversational podcast that explores how the Spirit of God moves with the world to the power of stories.
SPEAKER_01In today's episode, we will sit down with a member or friend of Guy's Crystal Church.
SPEAKER_00We hope you will be enlightened and inspired by the World Chair today.
SPEAKER_01Today we have a friend of Guy Christian Short joining us. His name is Troy Titan, and Troy is coming to us from Raleigh, North Carolina via uh calling us on the phone. So this is our first interview that we are having with someone uh a little further away. Uh I have known Troy for uh a couple of years. We were on the board at Christmas together, but Danny and Troy grew up together. And so hopefully sometime in this podcast, Troy, you're gonna be able to tell me and tell our audience some good stories about Danny Golden. Um I know he's excited about that opportunity, right, Danny? Troy. Oh, Troy Story. It is it is the one thing I hope to get out of Troy. But before we hear stories, a couple we could tell, but probably not.
SPEAKER_00This podcast may not be the best format for those.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01But before we get into Danny's stories that you have, um, tell us a little bit about yourself. Why don't you introduce yourself to the audience?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um glad to be here with you guys. Uh my name is Troy Tatum. I am a disciple minister, uh, raised uh in the Christian church in Atlanta. Uh Danny and I indeed did grow up going to school together and uh youth group together. And um there there will be some some good dirt we can share later. Danny, it may be a good fundraiser where um you know people can can donate to the church, you know, bid for the best stories, and you can you know match them by uh trying to get me not to tell the story.
SPEAKER_00That is a brilliant idea. I'm not sure I have enough money. Might have to borrow some money first.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um well I am uh I've been a disciple minister my entire adult life, um, but have just stepped down from ministry. Uh I was diagnosed with ALS in January of this year. Uh and I'm sure we'll we'll touch on that as as we we talk today because that's that's uh a rather sharp turn and significant development in uh my faith journey. Um but the the kind of the exciting thing about that right now is uh that I am uh have more free time on my hands, and and that means I've been able to do a little more music, been able to spend uh some more time with my kids, and uh get to explore what it is to be uh a member of a church. I've been employed by the church since uh I was 20 years old, so I have never been an adult member of a church. And uh, you know, we'll we'll see what that looks like. So I'm I'm excited about uh uh some of what's uh in front of us right now uh and continuing to stay involved in the church and uh do some consulting with congregations and coaching with ministers as well as some music. So uh that's kind of where I am right now.
SPEAKER_00Troy, I think what makes you unique, I was telling Kyle before we called, is that even though you've retired at age 47, you had nearly a 30-year career of professional ministry because you started at 20 at First Christian Church of Atlanta as uh director of youth ministries there. Um how did you how did you decide, because you were in college, how did you decide to make that transition into working in ministry? Um because I think that was even before you felt the the full call to do seminary and ordination and all of those things. Um how did that come about?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh uh our home church, First Christian Church of Atlanta, uh, was looking for a simply a summer uh youth director. Um uh and my thought was, you know, I'm home from college for a couple of months. I grew up, you know, active in youth group and church camp and all those things, which had had been a hugely important part of my life. Um, but at that point was still thinking, you know, uh uh music or or something was was going to be the music or teaching, really were the two um uh leading contenders for for what a career path would look like. But anyway, I I ended up uh saying, yeah, I'll do this summer youth director gig. Uh and I'll get to go to camp. I'll get paid to go to camp and and some of those things that I would do anyway. Uh so I thought that'd be great. Um so the the summer turned into about 13 months.
SPEAKER_01Uh they they just kept that's how ministry works, they get you in and never say yes to the summer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, when you say yes, you're in till you find your own replacement. Uh it's just the story of the church. Uh or you die. I mean, those are your choices. Um but uh I I started and uh you know it was euphemistically a challenging youth group, uh let's put it that way. Um the the it was it was a wild group of kids, uh and I was of course in no way mature enough to deal with them at all. Um but you know there was some joy in it too. And and I I eventually stepped away, um, but ended up uh uh serving another church uh just about a month after I stopped at First Atlanta. I ended up at First Christian in Winder, Georgia. Uh and you know, I found after that 13 months, even as trying as it was, as ill-equipped as I was for that job, um, as frustrating as all of it was, that I still kind of felt a pull to do that kind of work. And thankfully ended up in uh what was a better fit for me and a healthier group of kids uh at First Christian Winder. And you know, I have been employed by the church ever since. Uh, you know, so that was 1995 was when I started at First Atlanta and have been in ministry continually since then until uh October.
SPEAKER_01Now, Troy, everyone likes to talk about that call story. I mean, every minister has one. And and you know, Danny alluded that you kind of were serving the church and working in the church before maybe that call had um fully come to fruition for you. Do you do you remember that moment? Uh I assume it was maybe that second uh second church that you were serving. Like what about uh an experience for you said, yep, this is it, I'm going to seminary. This is exactly what God is calling me to do.
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, uh I don't know that I've ever had that experience. Uh I don't know that it it was ever fully confirmed for me uh as much as it was kind of the slow pull uh in in that direction. Um you know, I I came out of the bad experience and said, Yeah, I think I may still want to do this. But it wasn't like it was all, you know, rainbows and puppy dogs after that either. Uh and I I kept having opportunities to do something else. And I just couldn't ever bring myself to do it. Uh I kept feeling like um I am doing what God put me here to do uh in those those moments, even as frustrating as it was at times and uh as hard as it could be. I there there was still a sense of joy uh and purpose uh in in the work and in the relationships. Uh I was incredibly grateful for uh mentors in ministry who kind of uh stood alongside me in those times and and helped um kind of name God's call in my life, even when you know I might not have been able to name it or see, you know, shrubbery didn't burst into flames or anything. Right. You know, it it it was it was that slow pull uh where you know I eventually was was able to say, you know, I I think I think this is what my gifts are for. Um and I felt such a home in uh congregation uh and community um that my gifts were affirmed and and um I I sensed God's presence in that. Um I I I also you know there were there were lots of opportunities for off-ramps too, and um I just kept feeling like this was right for now. But I don't know that there was ever a um you know kind of lightning strike moment where where it was crystal clear. And that to me is my experience of the way vocation works with with a lot of folks is um you kind of live into that reality and and gradually it uh takes hold in your life. Uh, and that was definitely my experience.
SPEAKER_01You know, I appreciate your honest um telling of that story because I think uh our listeners, some will say, uh, the church is rainbows and unicorns. And I think others have seen behind the curtain and they realize the church is not a perfect place. No matter how much we are like it, there is there is difficult things that take place um and and for some folks that's that's a really difficult thing to um to deal with when they're faced with it, um when they realize that it's not as perfect as they once thought, whether it's uh as a member or whether it's as a elder or leader of the church. And so I'm curious what grounds you or what has grounded you in those moments when you may have um struggled um in your call?
SPEAKER_02Well uh I I I'll answer that in just a second, but I was gonna say kind of the other piece that helped me see it. So this might might be might not be exactly what your question is, but uh an important part of it to me was growing up in the church and having ministers be real friends uh and and real presences, uh real a real presence in our our lives as a family and and my life as uh as an individual, where you know I think as involved as my family was in the life of the church, there was never a moment when I really didn't see how the sausage got made.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02Uh the the the the um kind of warts and all of the church was always present in our lives. Uh we we even there was there was a time when I was a kid where uh the music minister at our church lived in our basement uh for a couple of years as she was going through a divorce. And you know, it it's it's hard to put ministers on a pedestal, you know, when you see their curlers in watching days of our lives, you know. Uh and and and so that sense that, you know, yeah, some people may put the church on a pedestal or ministers on a pedestal, you know, I I could get that sense, but I also um kind of saw behind all of that pretty early on, which I think helped me have a healthier understanding of the church and of what ministers might be. Um so it in terms of of staying grounded in that throughout my life, uh there was, I think, a more realistic set of expectations, expectations due to what I talked about. Um and I just, you know, um I'm I'm not gonna throw Danny on the bus with any kind of Danny stories, but uh at least at this point, we'll we'll see. We'll hold hold out on that.
SPEAKER_00Just nothing about the we are from the school of when um you mentioned the brush, uh the shrubbery being on fire. We're usually going to see which one or two youth actually uh yeah, set the brush on fire.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, and that that was very much the church, the the youth group at First Atlanta when I was there.
SPEAKER_00We could definitely throw a few names out there, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll we'll we'll save those. But but anyway, um, you know, my circle of friends throughout uh the majority of my life has been the folks I went to church camp with, like Danny and and others, uh and colleagues in ministry, and and I just have been uh abundantly blessed throughout my life to have uh colleagues and friends who have been in the thick of trying to make ministry work and could be a sounding board and conversation partner um through the struggles of that. So so, you know, I think you can you combine a sense of realistic expectations for the church and ministry along with a community of colleagues and friends going through the same thing. And so it never did never really feel all that isolating, even when it could have. Uh I always uh have had uh a strong and faithful community around me. And you know, that's that's what keeps you going. That's what keeps you down for me anyway.
SPEAKER_00I'll add too, I mean, many of the mentors and friends in ministry Troy and I have are the are in the same orbit, or we you know, we've been influenced by the same people. And I really, even from the time we were in youth group, I mean, both of our um youth ministers, we had a change in leadership in our youth group about halfway through our experience, but both of them were very real with us. Like I think for me, that's what made me the most um comfortable about going into ministry is that um I mean this in the best way possible. I was heavily influenced by normal people. Um you know, and there was no I I I mean, I there was no pedestal they were on because we we got to see them struggle and they were open and honest about real life things. Um Troy, now how is that circle um as as you have been facing health challenges, as you've been um dealing with ALS and moving into this new normal of your life, how is that kind of circle of friends um how has that evolved for you and what is what is that role of people play for you now?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh, you know, it's again, I uh I can't imagine trying to go through this without that kind of community of of support around me. Uh and um you know I I I don't know how people who don't have uh a circle of friends like that or a church community like that go through things like this. Um, but I have been um just abundantly ridiculously uh blessed by uh uh folks like Danny uh and others uh who have um been standing with me in the thick of this, have uh allowed me to be honest and and vulnerable, uh, which are not things that come natural to me. Uh and you know uh being having spent a life being a caregiver uh rather than the one who has to receive care has kind of um you know uh built up some some scar tissue around my life where where it's a little rough to uh to come out and be that vulnerable. But um, you know, we I've got folks around me uh and colleagues in ministry and my congregation here in Raleigh, in addition to uh virtually every congregation I've served, uh, has just um kind of come out of the woodwork in amazing ways to be uh supportive of us, uh of myself and my family uh through all this. The um you know the highlight of of all that for me was um a couple months after we got the diagnosis, uh Beth Thomason, a clergy colleague uh friend of mine at Danny's for a long time, um, kind of said it, you know, I don't know what you need, but I kind of need to be together with um our friends. And and so we did a we did a retreat at Christmount with uh kind of my my closest circle of clergy colleagues. And um that that experience of of those few days together uh at Christemount, in addition to the uh continuous support since then, you know, I I I don't know that I could uh have done it without that and without them. Um so it it's been a remarkable uh experience to stand uh and be vulnerable um with folks I love. Um yeah, I I I I'm struggling to put it into words, but um that the that community of colleagues and friends are just essential for uh my mental and spiritual health right now.
SPEAKER_00I think you said it beautifully. We uh we even have a text thread, Team Troy, and we've had several efforts to get hashtag TatumTime. Um, but we'll get there.
SPEAKER_01So Joy, I I'm curious um how has your conversations uh with God been in this season? And and I know it's a very personal question. Um and you can always say we always give any of our folks, you know. I'm just not able to answer that. Um that is a perfectly acceptable response. But uh with your theological background and everything, I'm just I I'm wanting to sit at your feet right now to to glean what information you you may be able to give to me as a pastor who might have to sit with someone who has been diagnosed with um ALS or uh cancer diagnosis. I mean, you know, sometimes we wonder what words to say, and oftentimes there are no words. Um I'm just um if if you're willing to share, I'd love to hear how that is for you.
SPEAKER_02Well, I I I think the uh the challenge for me early on uh was to stick to the theology that that I had that has served me throughout my entire adult life. Um which which in simple terms is God doesn't make things like this happen. Uh God stands with us in the midst of of our pain and uh our journey and our struggle, but God's not you know pulling uh the strings on the marionette in your life to to make all this stuff happen. And so, you know, initially I think there is a kind of gut reaction to be angry and to be mad, and and um I I certainly felt those emotions, but I I I really I think the the grounding in a life of ministry where I have tried to help people see God as uh uh an abiding presence in these moments and not the cause of them, um you know, the the words that I've shared so many times kind of came back to me. And I I even as frustrated and angry as I was, I you know in my gut knew that God's not the one to blame in all of this. Uh and I think you know that really believing that about God you know kept me from going down some dark paths with all of this. I think likewise, um there's lots of reason to be angry and frustrated and and lament and and and all of that. And so uh I have have really again kind of taken the advice I'd given folks so so many times through the years is you know, go read the Psalms. Go go spend some time with folks who are uh experiencing uh the the depth and the width and the breadth of of human emotion um you know at full stretch. Uh and and I I think that's what we find in the Psalms is the um all of those experiences of of what it means to be human are are shared in a um you know kind of to borrow uh Bill Coffin's language, you know, kind of a lover's quarrel with God. Uh and um that's I think my my experience with this has has been to um to to dig deep into all of those emotions, not to try to shut the Down, um, but to find ways to express them. Um and and music has has been a big part of that for me, is returning to writing songs again, which I had not done much for a while. Um, and that's been a way for me to kind of express and and and process all of this. Uh so you know, there is there is this sense that God has not abandoned me in all this. Instead, God's in those communities that I've spoken of, the friends and colleagues who who have walked with me through this, and and that God can take whatever I dish out. Uh, you know, uh I'm when I'm angry, I can express that. When I'm I'm fearful or or or doubtful, I can express that. Uh and I'm grateful to have been shaped by an understanding of God throughout my life and ministry that you know God is sturdy enough to withstand whatever I can throw at God in the midst of this. Uh and how how thankful I am to have a faith that can stand the test uh in these um difficult moments. Um so you know that's that's a big piece of it. Uh I and the the other thing that I have found myself doing, uh, and it's been more through through songwriting than anything else, is just kind of finding resonance with uh some of the biblical stories that uh uh deal with some of the stuff that I'm going through. And you know, the one that uh I keep coming back to is kind of Moses on the cusp uh of the promised land, but knowing he's not gonna get there. Uh I'm sorry. There we go.
SPEAKER_01No, there we go. We we lost you for a minute. Sorry about that, Troy.
SPEAKER_02Okay, all right. Um anyway, was was saying that, you know, kind of the the I've been finding meaning in some biblical stories that um really resonate with me. And and the one especially is you know, Moses kind of standing on the cusp of the promised land and knowing uh he he's not gonna get through. Um and you know, have have written some about that. But those those kind of stories uh have them speaking to me. So I I don't know that there's you know um I have the words to go to God in prayer, but I I have a um I try to take a prayerful attitude in um you know wrestling with these stories and in giving thanks for the community of love and support around me.
SPEAKER_00Isn't it um powerful and yet strange when the advice you've been giving and the theology you've been teaching for years upon years, uh you suddenly discover it it's actually true. It's actually helpful. It worked. I listened to my own sermon and I said some good things. That actually worked.
SPEAKER_02You know, Craddock, Fred Craddock used to uh talk about when he grew up um that one of the things they did at Sunday school was he had to have a Bible verse memorized for every letter of the alphabet, you know, start with A and you know, um uh a text that started with that letter, and he he'd have one for all that. And you know, he talked about how frustrating it was as a kid to have to do that, but how many times uh throughout his life uh that he was grateful he had that deep reservoir of scripture from which to draw when when life got rough. And and that's that's kind of where I found myself in um you know the stuff I've been talking about for 30 years. Uh I haven't had to face it in nearly the same way as I have now. Um but how grateful I am for that that reservoir of of scripture and tradition and theology that uh allows me to uh draw deeply uh on that reservoir through this kind of experience. So I'm I'm incredibly grateful for it.
SPEAKER_00Troy music's always been a big part of your life. And um I'll say this, you know, when you were at youth events as a kid and young adult and all that, and you'd be sitting around talking. I mean, as soon as Troy brought out the guitar to start singing, it was um that was it. I mean, you knew what you were doing for the next three hours. And uh probably literally Troy had to play a little finger split, I think, because um, you know, it just draws you in like that. So how in the season, and especially with um having to switch to worship online during the pandemic did some really amazing online worship around music, you have a talented music team. Um that's who you recorded the record with. But what what role has how what have you rediscovered about music since your diagnosis and what role is it playing in your life in this season?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, you know, I have uh like I said, I've I've played all my life and you know, early in my life, before I really kind of claimed ministry as a vocation, I I thought music might be the the direction I'd take professionally. Um, but you know, I I looked at all the musician friends in my life who were uh sleeping on couches and didn't have health insurance and said, you know, I'm not sure that's really the direction I want to go in. Uh there's to be said for security. Uh so I did, you know, uh kind of set it aside uh as a career goal and spent you know so much of my ministry, uh especially with with kids and youth, you know, the the music I was playing had lots of hand motions and uh animal sounds in it.
SPEAKER_00So it wasn't wasn't quite what uh uh you know I really wasn't your genre of choice.
SPEAKER_02Right, right, right. You know, lots of arky archie and twosies toosies. Um so yeah, when when COVID hit and we went online like the the first Sunday, um, you know, it was me and a guitar here in my home studio uh with a cell phone, and you know, we kind of made that work. But uh as we as we kept going, you know, COVID dragged on and on, um, we got more folks from the church involved uh in doing music, and we found ways to collaborate online, you know, individually to do stuff. And so I ended up, you know, uh being the band, uh, our our worship band, because you know, I play guitar and some other instruments too, and we could kind of multi-track things where um you know we could have a full band and lots of uh vocal harmonies and stuff, and it sounded great. And and so we uh we have two just incredibly talented singers on our staff uh at Hillier, Julia Cardi and Christiane Newell. And I had such fun making music with them that I said, well, you know, I need to start writing again so we can do some of our own stuff. And so the the idea was, you know, let me write some some stuff for uh our folks to to sing and to use and worship. And I started all that about the same time uh ALS showed up in my life, and so it was kind of this perfect storm of uh you know ready to to play and record more at the same time that I I found I really needed an outlet to process what was happening. Uh and so that's you know, the the record that that we recorded, you know, I all the songs written over this last year when when we've known something was wrong, and then when we found out it really was ALS, and and so forth. So it's been my prayer time as much as anything else has been uh writing and and um you know getting this experience uh out in some way. And and and along with that, you know, as a musician, I know um you know ALS is gonna take my hands eventually. Uh and so there's there's kind of like this this ticking clock in my life that says, uh, you know, do as much of this as you can while you can. Uh and so music's been a really um big driver for me and has given me uh a continual sense of purpose even after uh I've stopped uh serving in uh professional ministry. So uh it's it's been a huge part of my life and and uh has the the rekindling of it came at the perfect time uh so that I was ready to kind of dive into it when ALS came.
SPEAKER_01You know, I think it's important for us all to have something in our lives that give us purpose. And in your gift of music, it's such a joy. I've enjoyed your online worship services. I would usually tune in just because the way in which you approached it was so um relatable for me in that sense. I think all of us were trying to figure out uh how to do ministry in a new way, but also find grounding it and so much. So I'm thankful for that. You talk a lot about music and we often ask people a book or television show just to kind of have a little fun question. Um you can answer that. Or being uh a musician, what artists do you turn to um that you that that you listen to that that that give you joy or that's uh kind of on repeat for you right now?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um you know, uh as a songwriter, uh John Prime's who I go back to over and over and over again, uh just for uh uh the brilliant use of language and and uh how he can make the uh the ordinary sacred uh in the way that he uh pays attention to it. Uh you know, Guy Clark's another favorite songwriter, and I think he was the one who said that um you know love is largely a matter of paying attention. Uh and I am grateful for for songwriters who who can take you know that little slice of life and and find meaning in it. Um so John John Prime is is uh definitely uh a favorite. Yeah, the other one that I've gone back to quite a lot lately, um Warren Zevon uh died of cancer, um, I don't know, 15, 20 years ago, uh, and and put out a record with his friends um right after he was uh diagnosed and kind of in in late stages. And and uh I I've really uh resonated with um those songs and those performances now uh and have uh have really enjoyed getting uh um enjoys probably the wrong word, found found um some some meaning uh in it and resonance and in his work. Um and from a uh I I never listened to much Christian music growing up. It was you know, the secular stuff was all I really did, but I found that a lot of Christian music has gotten better, especially over the last decade or two, certainly than what you know from it's evolved from Carmen that we heard at church campus one time. Yeah, yeah. Uh Sarah Groves is one I I really, really love. Uh and she's especially some of her uh reimagining of familiar hymns, uh, I think is is just phenomenal. So uh those are a few who I've been listening to lately for sure.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. I'm glad you uh I'm glad you asked him the music question rather than the TV question, Kyle, because growing up, Troy and I watched some really bad television. So um I know I still do. I don't want to out Troy, but um he pr he probably does too.
SPEAKER_02So Oh yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00All right, here comes the the big question is um if you could ask God one question, what would it be?
SPEAKER_02Uh I don't know that I can put it in into words. Uh and and and some of that, you know, I I think there's this natural inclination to want to ask why. Uh and I I don't know that I believe God, you know, as I said before, pulls those strings. Uh and and and so less a question and more of a of a prayer uh would would just be to to say, God, please um continually make me aware of your presence in my life. Uh keep keep my eyes and my ears open um for the for the movement of your spirit in my life because I I I want to see it, I want to pay attention, uh, I want to to notice uh what God is doing. And uh those those little glimpses of grace um are enough to keep you going, you know?
SPEAKER_00That's wonderful, that's powerful. That's a that's a good answer.
SPEAKER_01Well, Troy, I know uh as we conclude our time together, you're gonna lead us um, or you're gonna share with us one of your songs, and we are eager to hear. Uh, do you know what song you're gonna be playing for us today?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's the uh it's the title track from the record called The Journey is Our Home, and it's kind of um almost midrash, I guess, uh of you know what Moses might have been going through um on the cusp of the promised land, as I kind of uh referring to earlier. So it's it's kind of um what I often say when when preaching a funeral is you know, my job is to take the biblical story and the person's story and and put them together. And just not a not a funeral, not to make it uh uh that dark or anything, but but the the approach to this song is kind of take my story and and Moses' story and uh kind of lay them over each other and see what pops up. So so that's the song, The Journey is Our Home.
SPEAKER_00I love I love that imagery. And so the record, I like that we can say record now that um Arnold's back, but The Journey is Our Home. Folks can get it, um, support you all, right? We'll put a link in the show notes to where they can purchase it, but they can find you on Facebook, right? And um it's on the streaming, but um you can find it Apple Spotify, but also um it'd be great to purchase an actual CD copy, support um support Troy and support their music. And I know you guys are playing around town a little bit and doing some of that. And um we're just we're just grateful your ministry is continuing in that way because it's very um it's very powerful. All right, take it away. All right.
SPEAKER_02All right, thank you all. Enjoy being with you.
SPEAKER_01This has been another episode of Ticker to Doubt. We hope you will join us next time as we explore the power of story. We can be found on all major platforms, so be sure to subscribe. As always, thanks for listening. Until next time. This is Sticker to Doubt.