Sacred Sitdowns
Sharing one’s personal story is sometimes hard, but it is holy. Sacred Sitdowns seeks to allow a safe space for faith-filled conversations with members and friends of Geist Christian Church. Hosts Kyle Brown and Danny Gulden hope that all those who hear will be enlightened and inspired. Listen with us. You’ll be glad you did.
Sacred Sitdowns
Max Michael
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Today, Danny and Kyle sit down with Max Michael. Born and raised in Pendleton, Max embraced a unique blend of interests during high school that have continued throughout his life. Married to Dana, he spent a large portion of his life working for the Indiana Department of Environmental Management, where he managed the statewide emergency spill response program for two decades. Now retired, he balances part-time roles at Roxley Games in Calgary and Saltire Games on Pendleton Pike. A dedicated history buff, Max loves participating in reenactments and having served as an Elder. His pride lies in his two daughters, Alyson and Kinsey, who embody bravery and brilliance.
Let us tell you a story. A story that will challenge, inspire, and change the way you see the world. We're your host. I'm Danny Goolden. And I'm Kyle Brown. And this is Sacred Sit Downs.
SPEAKER_01A conversational podcast that explores how the Spirit of God moves within this world through the power of story.
SPEAKER_04In today's episode, we will sit down with a member or friend of Geist Christian Church as they share their dynamic, faith-filled story.
SPEAKER_01We hope that you will be enlightened and inspired by the words shared today as we gain deeper understanding of ourselves and the world around us. This is Sacred Sit Downs.
SPEAKER_04Well, hello, everyone. He loves uh creating board games, playing board games. Uh, and we're gonna talk a little bit more about that uh later. Uh and he also has a passion for uh history, um all types of history, but primarily he loves the Revolutionary War time period within American history. And so we're gonna uh we've got a wide range of topics to talk about today, and we're so glad to have Max with us.
SPEAKER_01Uh this is gonna be great. Max, hello. Glad you're here. Um thanks for being here and spending some time with us today and with our listeners. And um, we're all in for a treat. So maybe to get started, tell us a little bit just of your story and faith.
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, I grew up in the disciples of Christ Church. Uh dad got us up every Sunday, made sure we go to church. Uh even when I brought my college roommate home and we stayed up a little late one night. Uh went to church the next day. He was quite pleased to wake us up, I think. That's impressive. Where was this at? Uh Pendleton Christian Church. Okay. Uh it was we were in no shape to go to church. It was the longest sermon ever. Uh but uh I think dad smiled throughout the whole time because he knew exactly what he's doing. But yeah, my earliest memories are uh are putting on uncomfortable clothes because back in the day you had Sunday clothes, right? And uh uncomfortable shoes and walking to church, about three blocks to walk to church. Was it uphill both ways? Uh in the snow. Oh man. Gosh.
SPEAKER_01Rain and sleep.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So um, so yeah, and uh and then after church, uh we'd have, you know, traditional, you know, Sunday dinner, and then uh clear off the dishes, and dad would count them offering because uh there was no direct deposits. Yeah, right, right. No direct deposit, no online giving, no, it was checks and uh and cash and he hated those little fold-up boxes that you hand out to the kids and they put coins in. Because you have to count all those pennies and nickels and dimes.
SPEAKER_01So the Sundays you had the noisy offering where they told everyone to bring all their pennies and put it in the box. That was not a fun day for your dad.
SPEAKER_02No, he wasn't too happy. No.
SPEAKER_04Now on Sunday evenings, did you have uh a typical meal that you all would share? Or or that was that was right after that was after church.
SPEAKER_02Okay. That was that was lunch. Okay. The big fried chicken, mashed potatoes, good stuff.
SPEAKER_01So your dad would eat and then count the offering? Yeah. Wow. Priorities. I couldn't function after Sunday lunch.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I remember Sunday lunch, just wanted to take a nap. Well, this is you know, the interesting thing is dad would sit down, get the offering out, light up a cigar and get out a beer and count the offering. Nice. And and when I tell my Wesleyan friends that, they're like, oh no. Smoking and drinking. I said, Yeah, and it's the same kitchen table he played poker with his buddies on. So yeah, that's uh it's a pretty interesting perspective. That kitchen table got used for lots of things.
SPEAKER_01Jimmy Buffett says there's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning. So you said uh your Wesleyan friends, did you?
SPEAKER_02I w I went to Indiana Wesleyan University. Okay. Uh back in the day, it was called Marion College, I O N up in Marion. And uh I went there for a couple of reasons. One was when I went to visit, the uh the guys I met were just like instant friends. So it was just comfortable. Also, it was uh even then it was a tiny, tiny college. It's ten times bigger now. Uh and uh it just felt manageable. But one of the big things was I could get out in three years. And you know, the tragedy of my life is I'm good at school and I don't like school. So there you go. I can get out in three years. Sounds like a good deal to me. So what was it like going to school there? It was interesting. Another reason I went there is because I had a lot of friends that went to IU. Okay. And they came back after a semester and didn't go back. Uh so you know, I was like, okay, maybe not go there. Maybe go someplace where there's nothing to do but study. And there wasn't anything else to do but study because there's no card playing, no dancing, no movies. You lived Footloose. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, pretty much.
SPEAKER_01Were you all good dancers? Like in Footloose?
SPEAKER_02No, but there it wasn't allowed. You just you didn't do any of those things.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's the ironic thing about Footloose is in a town uh where you can't dance, everybody's like an excellent dancer. Like how is I've always wondered that, so I didn't know if you had that. No.
SPEAKER_04I never even thought about the movie. There are some.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, when they're finally able to dance, it's like they're all like champion dancers. It's amazing. It's all pent up. Yeah. Maybe so. Maybe so. Maybe so.
SPEAKER_02Well, they they also had this and may still have it. They had this great reputation of everyone that went into uh everyone that graduated from their pre-med program, three out of four of their applicants got into medical school. Wow. At the time, that's what I thought it was going to do, but that uh I decided against that. Aaron Powell So what what made that shift for you? Uh well the second semester of organic chemistry didn't help. But yeah. Not you know, a middle child overachiever, my mom was a nurse. Oh, you're a good student, you should be a doctor. It's like, okay, I guess. Studied really hard, and I just decided I didn't like hospitals and sick people too much. So I thought, well, you know, what else can I do with this degree? It's like, well, you know, I'll apply to dental school. It's like, so I spent six months at U Dental School learning I didn't want to be a dentist. Uh they taught me that really well. Uh and then the environmental field opened up with the passage of Superfund, and I got to wear a hazmat suit and walk around vats of nasty chemicals.
SPEAKER_04That's just scary.
SPEAKER_01Walking around like Oh, it's it's fun. What is fun about that? Do you feel invincible in a hazmat suit?
SPEAKER_02Like, you know, you're you're 21, 22, and you're in a hazmat suit. And it's it's like being an astronaut, man. You got the Darth Vader breath going. This is awesome. So like where did you do this at? Like Oh, all over the Midwest. I worked for a private company that had a contract with EPA.
SPEAKER_04And so your job was to go in and uh identify the issue or clean up the issue?
SPEAKER_02Well, well, we were just identifying. We're taking samples and categorizing it and and all these things. But you back before there's regulations, there's like, you know, vats and vats and drums and drums of hazardous chemicals laying around that people just kind of hid away.
SPEAKER_04Aaron Powell Like what kind of chemical like where does this stuff go? Like how do you think that's the same thing?
SPEAKER_02Oh well well after we characterize it, then the the next this is where superfund comes in. Gotcha. And the EPA pays for disposal. It's either incineration or it's or it's uh solidification and just all all this kind of technical stuff.
SPEAKER_01Was the EPA fairly new then? Like how old was the first time.
SPEAKER_02Right. So this is super fund in 1980 when when all the regulations come out on how to dispose of hazardous waste and all that kind of stuff comes around. Before then you could just kind of stick it in the warehouse and worry about it.
SPEAKER_01There was no guidance at all. Yeah. Which is the wild, wild west out there.
SPEAKER_02It was yeah. Yeah. So imagine that people made messes.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02And your job was to identify those messes and then i if people didn't make a mess or make mistakes or things didn't break, I would have had to get a different job.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02It's a good point.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So at what point in life did you and Dana find Guy's Christian church?
SPEAKER_02Uh we had uh moved here in eighty eight. And uh you know, we had and uh so I was sleeping in and she was church shopping.
SPEAKER_01And uh she went to she was doing the work for you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, she goes, I'm going to church. Like, well, okay, go ahead. I'm still banking on the every Wednesday chapel at Indiana Wesley and like so you'd kind of been out of church from that point from growing up in Pendleton and then Well well Dana kept going to school and then we ended up getting married, and uh we lived in Elkhart for three years. Okay and then moved here in April. Okay. So yeah, it goes from I I'm running around in hazmat suit when I'm living in Chicago and she's going to vet school. Then we moved to Elkart. We find Elkart Christian Church, enjoyed that immensely. Uh move here, and it's like, yeah, I'll go take a break. So Dana's shopping around, she found Geist Christian Church in the Yellow Pages.
SPEAKER_01Really? Wow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. And there was like a building by the time we joined. Yeah. Yeah. We were missed being charter members by like a couple years.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Yeah, if you were 88 around there, yeah.
SPEAKER_02The the building. Yeah. Which is the Great Hall now. The Great Hall Now. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Interesting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01There probably was not there was not much out at the area at that point, right? At 86 and Mud Creek.
SPEAKER_02It's about the same. What has blown up is McCordsville and Fortville and Fisher's. Right. Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Because I mean it it it was surprising. I uh as as I understand the story is Mud Creek, uh it took a lot of work to even get a church in that spot because they really wanted it to be all residential. They did not want any church or business to be there. And then where uh for 79th and Fall Creek, they didn't they thought that was a floodplain. They didn't really want Kroger or any of that. You had to be on stilts. Um I believe there used to be a uh talk to Tucker uh residential uh real estate that had to be you had to have it on pillars uh in case it did flow, like you would see if you were at the beach. Um and of course that's drastically changed in that area. So uh you and Dana, you guys have two daughters, right?
SPEAKER_02That's right. Two beautiful, brilliant, brave daughters. Uh Allison is a chemist in uh Vermont, and uh Kinsey is in uh southern uh Indianapolis and applying to med school.
SPEAKER_00That's wonderful.
SPEAKER_04So, Max, one of the things that I know you love, um, because we've we've chatted about it, uh, is is board games. Uh you love board games, you have a passion for it. Not only do you enjoy playing, but you have created board games with friends. You travel all over to um events uh where other board game creators go and you swap stories. Um how did you get into to board games?
SPEAKER_02Oh, um my grandparents on my my dad's parents played uh Aggravation, which is basically sorry or trouble, and they played for blood. So, you know, you're you're six years old and you put your marble in the middle, you better watch it, you know, because they're gonna they're gonna get it. Uh you learn early on and this is serious. This is serious stuff, yeah. Yeah, so yeah, I I can't remember not playing board games.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04But your level of board, so you have educated me on board games, right? Because I I love Monopoly. Monopoly is I I know you say this every time when I say family loves Monopoly.
SPEAKER_01I was gonna ask Max about Monopoly too.
SPEAKER_04I love Monopoly. Uh it's it's cutthroat. Uh I I love playing it with youth, and they try to gang up and and have at times tried to beat me. I turn into another person when I play that game. It's not pretty. Uh all my values that I brings out the worst in you. It brings out the worst in me. Um I turn into somebody I don't like.
SPEAKER_02I've got the coffee cup that says if you don't lose friends playing board games, you're not board gaming hard enough.
SPEAKER_04I I would agree with that. Um but so you say I'm sorry because are are you saying unchecked capitalism brings out the worst in you? There is uh that's probably a podcast for another decade. Probably so.
SPEAKER_01Probably so.
SPEAKER_04But some of the games that you play, there there is a uh a style of game that uh not only do you create, but you play that is a little different than Monopoly. If you could kind of share us a little bit like how those games are played, what what makes them different and and why they bring joy to you?
SPEAKER_02Well, first I shouldn't be too harsh. At least you're playing a game, even if it's Monopoly. Right. So you've you've got that social thing going on in the real world. You're not you're not staring at a screen. Uh you're you're behaving in an analog way. And and so yeah, that's it that's all good. The trouble is there's there's so many more better games than Monopoly out there, and they're European-style games or Euro games. And the ones most familiar folks will be Ticket to Ride or uh Catan. And uh Catan was brought over in the 80s uh from Germany. Uh Germany has this huge tradition of uh making board games. And the best explanation I have for the difference between American style games, Monopoly style games, and Euro-style games is what if in Monopoly, instead of ruining your dice and moving your man and you land in a space and you do what that space says, what if instead you could choose? I can move my I can move my meeple, I can collect rent, I can buy property, I can buy a house, or I can draw a card. Choose three of those. And next turn you can't choose one of them again.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02So that's the best explanation I've got for the difference. So it's games of choice. And the choices change how choices change sometimes. Basically, it's uh what properties are on offer will change, right? Or or their price will go down the longer they're up there. So you've got you've got these choices to make uh rather than roll and move. And and the game tells you what to do or gives you that opportunity to do one thing.
SPEAKER_01That's helpful. Because I was gonna ask what the difference is, but it sounds like it is a uh the the game changes as you move along, depending on the choices that people make and that they don't make, right? I mean the equation changes in sort of the European style games. Where Monopoly, it's just sort of a game of yeah, roll and move and luck, and um, that's a good that's helpful because my f I what's interesting about board games is I feel, Max, and and you may correct me on this, I feel like they have come back around as something that is fun for people to do. Like my family, my two daughters, my wife and I, um, we love playing board games. And we were at the beach, you know, a few weeks ago on vacation and played Ticket to Ride, and we did play Monopoly. Um, but but my kids love, they're the ones that say, hey, let's do this. And I think that's um I just felt like there was a lull in my life in playing games until I kind of had kids again, and they're all into it, which has been really good. But it feels like in general that that more people are playing board games again. Is that true? Or it's very true.
SPEAKER_02Gen Con just occurred what last weekend, two weekends ago, and uh biggest tense ever. Right. And when I first started doing Gin Con decades ago, everybody kind of looked like me. Right? Now there's families. Cool, super cool, super cool dudes, yeah, you know. And uh and and or nerds or geeks or something, but they uh but now it's families and very pleased to see uh more diversity and very pleased to see more women uh uh playing board games. So it's it's grown tremendously. It's uh I I think a couple of things have have done that. One is we're sort of over the digital integration of things into our lives. Uh we go to work, stare at a screen for a large percentage of of the day. Uh we don't want to do that again. Um through uh through Zoom and other kind of things, we're we've got less human interaction. Uh so it's a very social, uh very social activity, uh and one you can have a laugh over. And uh and my good friend Doug Eckhart that designed one of the games I published uh says when you make that move you feel clever. Um so so I think it touches a lot of that basic human need kind of kind of thing. And I'm glad to see it really taken off.
SPEAKER_04So uh Max sent us a game. It was called Moshikoro. I think I pronounced that correct, um, or as best I can. Uh it is much like Monopoly, but it's based on cards, roll of the dice. Yeah, you build your own board. You basically build your own board to try to win the game. And there's four cards in front of you that you have to flip over. And we played it on a mission trip that we just went on together uh down in kind of the Mayfield, Kentucky, uh, Madison, Dawson Spring area uh of Kentucky that was hit by tornadoes. Uh we played.
SPEAKER_02And somebody won a couple of times and got real cocky, and then that win streak ended.
SPEAKER_04And we're not going to talk about who started with a win streak, but it was probably the only child uh who maybe got a little full of himself. But uh I'm surprised. This surprises no one uh who knows me. Uh I came home and lo and behold, the first game we play as a family, my daughter, our daughter, uh Miriam won the first game, and surprise to no one, super cocky, just like her dad after he won his first game. Uh, but we we'll play that one. Um we uh sushi roll, sushi go are two fun games that kind of um very popular. Yeah very popular and and she enjoys bringing those games out to teach other people uh how to play um because they're a little different. Uh the problem with some of these chance games, not chance, but these choice games, if you will, uh they're kind of heady and a little hard to learn right away. It's much easier when somebody teaches you how to play because there's there's just more things, there's more moving pieces in these games, which can make it a little difficult.
SPEAKER_02It's just different.
SPEAKER_01It's not hard, it's just different.
SPEAKER_04That's probably a better way to put it, yeah. You need someone to walk alongside of you, it sounds like well once Mac showed me how to play the game, I was all in. But it it it's it took a little setup and YouTube video, how to play videos are great. Oh man, YouTube does pretty much answer all our questions.
SPEAKER_01It does indeed. So what's the what's the best uh movie adaptation of a board game? And tell me why it's Clue. No. I do love that movie, Clue. I went uh when I was horrible. When I was a kid, I saw I went to the theory three times to see all three endings. It's horrible. It's horrible. Was it Tim Curry? We went as a family to flicks last year. My kids, because we like playing Clue too. I mean I love that movie. It was so good. Is the game horrible or the movie? What or both? The movie's horrible.
SPEAKER_02Okay, the game the game's actually I think the game actually started in Europe as Clue. So it's so that's so yeah. So that's that's like if people know Clue, they kind of know the vibe of Euro games. Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Well, it's Colonel Mustard. I can just tell you that right now. With the candlestick. With the candlestick. I love the conservatory. I've never lived anywhere with a conservatory.
SPEAKER_01I'd like to. Next time I do really well in Monopoly, I'm buying a conservatory instead of a hotel.
SPEAKER_04So I know there is so much more that we could talk about games. I know you have traveled to Germany almost yearly for their big uh event uh of board games.
SPEAKER_02Their Gen Con basically, that's three times bigger than what we have here. Wow.
SPEAKER_04Um I would like for you to share uh one of the games that you've created so that people can uh be aware of. I mean, I I think it's one thing to play a game, it's another thing to have that ability to create something.
SPEAKER_02Oh, let's see if any are still in print because it's been a it's been a minute. Oh, they could probably still get uh Credit Mobilier from Rio Grande, which is a uh train game uh where you build track and move goods and buy stock and there's enough luck in it that I can win. There's oh, there's a couple of games on uh at Simply Fun that I've had a hand in. Uh one's called let's uh one's called Pack It, where you're um packing your uh backpack. Oh fine. And then you go on a hike. If the bear comes, he eats everybody's granola bars. Uh so there's there's that one. The bear doesn't eat the people, just the granola bars? Well, the original version, um the uh folks with the heaviest backpacks lost all their goods because they got caught, basically. Well, sure. They couldn't outrun the bear. That that was seen as a little mean, so we had to change it up a little bit. Change it up a little bit.
SPEAKER_04The other passion of yours, other than games, is is history. I know you have traveled extensively. I'm curious, uh I did mention uh kind of the Revolutionary War era. What what about that era for you is uh is so enticing for you?
SPEAKER_02Well you had me choose. I mean it's French and Indian War and Revolutionary War and World War II and you know, so anything in history you have to do. Right. Yeah. But uh the Revolutionary War has got some some unique kind of aspects to it. One is it's uh it's a bunch of rich folks to uh that decide to rebel against the government. I'm not unaware of that happening very often. I mean the French Revolution, everyone's starving, they don't have anything to lose. These folks have a lot to lose. And the uh the fact that you know our our founding fathers you know yeah, they're marble icons, but they're they're people. And the more you read about them, the more you realize they're they're people and they're not all knowing and they're not perfect. But when the crisis comes Or when it's a test of character, they come through. You know. And so that's that's interesting to see. I mean, the fact that um, you know, Washington starts the French and Indian War when he's 24, uh by uh leading a patrol into what he considered was Virginia and the French considered was New France out in uh near Pittsburgh. Um and he and his militia and his Indians ambushed a bunch of Frenchmen, a bunch of French soldiers uh eating breakfast. Uh there's no war declared. This is a a border incident, if you want, and he starts it. Um and all of his journals are all full about how wonderful he is. And it's like, well, he's the one writing the journal, so he's a writer. Usually the victor gets to be. But the you know, and and he's you know, he owns slaves, he's he's not he is this ambitious young guy, uh maybe too ambitious. But uh when the war's nearly over and the Continental Army has not been paid, and the officers start to talk to him about, hey, let's just march the army up to Philadelphia and make Congress quit doing what Congress still does, uh dither around and not do much sometimes, um he sits them all down. And uh he uh gets their attention and he pulls out his spectacles and says, uh not only have I gone gray in the service of my country, but almost nearly blind. So forgive me while I put on my spectacles, which you don't do in public in that time period because it's a sign of physical weakness.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02And he reads his speech to them about how much they've gone through and what their ideals are and why they've done it, and why do you want to throw it all away and be just do this again, you know, just just have a military impose its will on the people is what we're fighting against. And there's and he basically kind of shames them, and there's not a dry eye in the house. Uh so here's a guy that could have been king uh and uh and wasn't, could have stayed president forever, but didn't. So this so at the time of crisis, uh you get this great example.
SPEAKER_01I think one of the things that's and there's a couple of things to me that's interesting about history is I think when you study it, you realize in in the in the Bible, Book of Ecclesiastes, Koheleth says there's nothing new under the sun. And when you study history, you you you tend to see that, that that some of the things we deal with today, um, because I think we tend to look back at history. I think you said we deify some folks, right? And and and they were flawed, and our our systems were flawed then, and and you know, and so I think there's this sense that we as a a people have gotten worse in some ways, and and you realize we're actually kind of getting better. I mean, in some ways, we're getting better than we used to be. Um we're learning, um, you know, I think America is especially still kind of a grand experiment, right, among um countries. And so um I I think history is always interesting because you, you know, as a kid, you think, oh, George Washington was perfect. But then as an adult and you kind of read more, you realize he, you know, and that to me makes it even more powerful that when it counted, they were able to do what you know what was right, and um because they were deeply flawed folks.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh one of my favorite stories, of course, everybody knows Benedict Arnold, and you know, is this bad guy, but he's all until then, he's a hero. He wins he he's in three big campaigns, saves the revolution at least uh once, even before Saratoga. Uh, and then as the hero of Saratoga, because well, because he wanted to be, uh, which is another story. But um yeah, he gets kind of mistreated a bit by Congress. He gets passed up for promotion, and and he gets his feelings hurt, as just about anybody would. Now, so did this fellow called General Stark, and he gets passed up from promotion, and he gets his feelings hurt. So he just kind of says, okay, well, good luck, boys. I've done my bit. You're not going to promote me, you're not going to give me credit, I'm going to go back home. Well, Stark goes back home, and then Burgoyne comes down the Hudson River, uh, sends a few hundred Hessians and Brunswickers out to raid the countryside and forage and get food for the army. And uh the militia says, Hey, General Stark, why don't you lead us up to to stop this raiding going on in our in our farms? And he's like, Okay. So he's got 500 militia or so. And then here comes a continental general, uh, Lincoln, with uh with a couple hundred uh continental soldiers. And he goes, I'm in charge. And Stark just looks at him and goes, I don't work for you anymore. Uh but if you want to join my 600 guys with your couple hundred guys, you can tag along if you like. So those two guys put their egos behind the cause. You know, it's like we're fine. Let's just agree to get along and and go against the common enemy and not worry about who's in charge here. And they win that battle, and that's the start of the of winning the Battle of Saratoga, which brings France into the war and changes things drastically. So here's here's two people. I mean, Arnold gets his feeling hurt uh repeatedly and and takes one route. Stark gets treated not quite the same, but similarly, and takes another route. And uh but when the cause needs him, he says, okay, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna not worry about the past, I'm gonna go forward. I'm not gonna worry about this other guy that says, you know, I'm in charge. It's like, no, you're not the boss of me, but we can work together here. And uh and not worry about the personal issues and go forward on what's important.
SPEAKER_04So this love of history, where did that come from?
SPEAKER_02Oh no, what again, one of my earliest uh memories is riding my bicycle to the public library, the Carnegie Library in town. And uh on the basement floor, there's the row of the green books, right? Of you know, Davy Crockett, Daniel Boone, Benjamin Franklin, George Weshnan, Thomas Jefferson, all those biographies. And uh, you know, in the summer, when you're eight and you live in Pendleton and there's three channels on TV.
SPEAKER_01And you have to get up from your seat to change them. Yes.
SPEAKER_02If there's not golf on and you're allowed to change them, um, you you find something to do.
SPEAKER_01Uh Kyle mentioned that you all were on the mission trip earlier this year to Kentucky. And what kind of led you to to start doing mission trips?
SPEAKER_02Well, you're retired and uh and I grew up, you know, dad was working on the house, seemed like constantly whatever, and and I was told more than once to make myself useful. Uh so uh you're retired, you have some time, and uh it's like, oh, okay, well, I guess I could make myself useful and uh and go help out. Uh so that's that's one thing. Plus still just the opportunity to hang out with uh great folks from Geist Christian is uh is just a real opportunity.
SPEAKER_04It's a lot of fun. I think we play hard and we we work hard and and and in the afternoons we play board games.
SPEAKER_01Well you get to really know people. I'd agree with that. It's an intense environment and you get to know one another and build pretty deep relationships.
SPEAKER_02And everybody's a little bit out of their comfort zone and and uh you know all the usual trappings are are not there. And so uh I mean who knew the Pellmans were just these crazy Cardinal fans.
SPEAKER_04So I learned so much. I meant every they don't miss a game. It's so impressive. That's interesting. St. Louis Cardinals. They are St. Louis Cardinal fans, they go. Uh I meant uh Dale would have the game on in the evenings, uh, Kathy would check the score.
SPEAKER_01Um and this is a tough year to be a Cardinals fan because they have not been very good.
SPEAKER_04Uh and you also learn like a uh a Rob knows how to make burgers in a way that I've I mean it it you're right. You learn about people and and the and and what makes them tick, but what gets them excited. Uh at times you can learn what can frustrate folks. You're living in an intentional community. You are and and you have to care well for one another when we're at our highs and when our lows, and in a week you really can experience both. I I've and all the mission trips I've been on, you you definitely have that experience.
SPEAKER_02You will get hot, you will get tired, you will get thirsty, you will get hungry, you will get cranky, you know. Just just and then it's just like take a breath. Yeah, and you'll get up the next day and do it all over again. That's right. Starting with the cranky part, because I get up awfully early on those mission trips.
SPEAKER_04Although the last one we went on had some really comfy temperatic beds. So it was the most cushy uh sleeping arrangements we have ever had.
SPEAKER_02Made it even harder to get out of bed.
SPEAKER_01I was about to say I think one of the nice things about mission trips is the uncomfortable beds because you're okay getting up early. I was real comfortable. You have a comfortable bed. That's uh, we'll be going back.
SPEAKER_02I need another night's sleep like that. Which it was real nice.
SPEAKER_04Well, Max, there is uh so much more we could talk about. Um I know I I'm so thankful for you uh coming and spending time sharing a little of your story and and passion and love. And uh it's uh it's just always unique to hear uh your take on history, elements of history, um, your love of games and sharing them with me and with others. Uh one of the things that Danny and I usually always ask uh our folks is uh is there a movie or a podcast or a show or a book uh that you are reading or have read that that that our audience should check out? And and with your breadth and depth of interests, uh you may have uh several things you would like to throw out to the audience today.
SPEAKER_02Well, if if uh you're a history nerd uh and you wonder how things ended up like they are, uh Guns, Germs, and Steel is a is a big thick book, but it it's very interesting take on um why things are how they are, just based on geography and and a million other things. Uh so that's that's that was eye-opening for me and very interesting. Uh when was it published? It's been a long time ago. Okay. Uh but guns, germs, and steel is is just kind of helps explain why is South America the way it is, and why is Africa the way it is, and why is it's one theory that that seems to make a lot of sense. Uh I also like uh I haven't read it for a long time, and there was a TV series about this in the 70s, early 80s called The Day the Universe Changed. And it is sort of Renaissance-ish on all of a sudden paintings start to detect perspective and how that changes how everyone looks at the world. There's another neat book called Against the Gods, which is a play on against the odds. And it's sort of the discovery of probability and how that gets used uh instead of just going through life and something happens, you go, well, that's just you know the the will of the gods is that this happens. It's like, well, if we start thinking in terms of discovering probability, and we can kind of predict, not with certainty, but with some assurance, the range of outcomes and what's likely. And that and the idea then that folks have so much more control and in their lives than before. Those are those are three interesting kind of broad spectrum books.
SPEAKER_01Very good. Max, thank you for joining us. Thank you. What a wonderful conversation, as Kyle said. We just began scratching the surface today, but we we appreciate your time. Thank you. Oh, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_04This has been another episode of Sacred Sit Downs. We hope you will join us next time as we explore the power of story. We can be found on all major platforms, so be sure to subscribe. As always, thanks for listening. Until next time, this is Sacred Sit Downs.