Sacred Sitdowns
Sharing one’s personal story is sometimes hard, but it is holy. Sacred Sitdowns seeks to allow a safe space for faith-filled conversations with members and friends of Geist Christian Church. Hosts Kyle Brown and Danny Gulden hope that all those who hear will be enlightened and inspired. Listen with us. You’ll be glad you did.
Sacred Sitdowns
Ted Baker
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In this episode of Sacred Sitdowns, Danny and Kyle welcome Ted Baker to explore faith, identity, and the long road back from brokenness. Ted shares his journey growing up as the son of two ministers in Anderson, Indiana, and how his big, magnetic personality became both a gift and a defense mechanism. They discuss what it has meant to be an African American man in a predominantly white church, why he chose Geist after walking away from a congregation that would not fully welcome his LGBTQ child, and the season of depression and suicidal thoughts that brought him to his knees and, ultimately, closer to God. Ted opens up about the friend, the faith, and even a little Joel Osteen that helped him claw his way back, and what it looks like now to hold onto grace while still calling himself a broken, hot mess. Tune in for an honest and moving conversation on shame, healing, and finding belonging in the body of Christ.
Let us tell you a story. A story that will challenge, inspire, and change the way you see the world. We're your host. I'm Danny Goulden. And I'm Kyle Brown. And this is Sacred Sit Downs.
SPEAKER_02A conversational podcast that explores how the Spirit of God moves within this world through the power of story.
SPEAKER_01In today's episode, we will sit down with a member or friend of Geist Christian Church as they share their dynamic, faith-filled story.
SPEAKER_02We hope that you will be enlightened and inspired by the words shared today as we gain deeper understanding of ourselves and the world around us. This is Sacred Sit Downs.
SPEAKER_01Hey everyone. Today on the podcast, we've got Ted Baker. It is good to have you with us on the podcast today, Ted. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Ted, we're glad you're here. Thank you for saying yes to joining us on Sacred Sit Downs. So we will jump uh jump right into it. Ted, just tell us a little bit about yourself. What do you want people to know? And maybe don't tell us what you don't want people to know, but tell us what you'd like people to know.
SPEAKER_03My life is an open book. That's not true. I I think that uh for the purposes of the podcast, I thought about, you know, what would what would I say about myself?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Uh and I think I need to provide some context. I mean, they probably can't tell, but I'm an African American. That's probably one. Uh two, both my parents were ministers. I grew up in um a very uh we weren't we weren't poor. We weren't weren't we weren't rich, I should say that, but we never felt poor. Uh so I spent most of my life in the church, but I would say that my walk with Christ has gotten much stronger in the past two years than it ever has been. So from my perspective, I've been in a lot of different environments. Our emphasis in our home was always about, you know, basically there are good folks and bad folks. We didn't we didn't really see a lot of color, although as an African-American family, we had a lot of the black experience that uh is is common to my folk, I'll put it that way.
SPEAKER_02Did your parents, both ministers, were they ministers in the African American church?
SPEAKER_03So yes. So it's kind of a make a long story short. My mom was a chaplain and she started that later in life. So she did a lot of hospital visitation, funerals, you know, uh things of that nature. And she sang with her sisters early on in her life. They sang at churches everywhere. So uh when my dad was introduced to my mother and her family, my grandmother said, as long as Mary can continue her ministry, you're okay. But my dad didn't always grow up in the church. So he had a different experience. My mom was always in the church, my dad wasn't. So dad had a later conversion experience, and he felt the call of the ministry. So when he got the call, he didn't end up pastoring a church, he ended up kind of doing like interim preaching for churches that were kind of in between picking out pastors or he would do guest preaching, that kind of thing. So I always thank God for that because I could not have been a true pastor's kid in a church. I would have what do you mean by that? I mean Well, I I so so yeah, you get to know a lot of uh pastors on behalf of our daughters. On behalf of your daughters, so first of all, it's that's a very cruel thing to do. No, the what people don't realize, they have outsized expectations for pastors because they forget that they're humans. Now we expect you to come to church and we want to unload on you, whether it's good news, bad news, in-between news. We're very critical of your life, of your lifestyle. And and by the way, we don't want to pay you anything, which blows me. I want 24 by 7 service, but I won't pay you nothing. And we're okay with that. In fact, there are many people, friends I have today, who think, well, why would we? I mean, that's their choice. It's like, okay, yeah. See how that works for you. So I I I there's a lot of pressure there. And then you have to have the right spouse because as as particularly as as as males, and and I would imagine as females, you have people that attach themselves to you, whether it's proper or improper, and your spouse is there and go, Well, I guess Sister Johnson just likes my husband. You know, uh, it's it's it's uh it's not an easy life. And the stress and the pull, uh and and and then in the midst of all that, you guys have to be fathers, uncles, uh, you have to be people in the community outside of, and we didn't we don't we don't always give you that grace or that breath. In fact, we can be rather cruel. So, so I've always I've always felt for pastors, and and at least in the African American church, the pastors kind of sit on a little more of a pedestal. You all over here, I mean, woo. Some of the stories I hear about my good white brethren, uh, about you know, hey, he preached too long. I mean, that never happens in the African-American church. We're like, well, we're here for three days and we're dang glad it's not four. Uh you're ready to settle in, yeah. Yeah, we are, we are. We're uh we have a different perspective on some things that I think it doesn't make it any, you know, easier, but at least there are some things they don't have to worry about. But I I was like, no, I could never have survived that. It's it's tough. It's really tough.
SPEAKER_01So did you grow up in the Indianapolis area? Where where was home?
SPEAKER_03So I spent the majority of my time uh growing up in Anderson, Indiana. Okay. And then after college, moved here to Indianapolis to take a job and then spent some time in Chicago, and now I'm back here, Indy.
SPEAKER_02How do you feel about Indianapolis as compared to Chicago? Because I know a lot of people kind of go back and forth between the two cities and I don't.
SPEAKER_03The the uh the thank you for that question, Danny. Thank you. Let me think about that for a moment. No, no, I I so what I learned living in Chicago is that actually Indianapolis was a little more integrated than Chicago. Chicago claims to have all this wonderful diversity and culture, but they're all in their own neighborhoods. Like there's south side of Chicago, there's a place where all the Puerto Ricans gather, the Chinese are over here. And and what I always used to laugh at when I lived downtown was that every month there was a week where each ethnic community got to throw a big parade, and that was kind of that that was about as close as everybody got. So when I came back to Indianapolis, you know, it felt like we were all just kind of, you know, we had our thing, but we were all kind of people sharing the same city. So I actually prefer Indiana. Now I have a brother who lives in Chicago. He loves Chicago, he loves that big city vibe, if you will. But uh no, I don't, I don't, I don't particularly miss it. I don't mind visiting there, but I don't miss it.
SPEAKER_02I have the same observation of growing up in Atlanta, kind of the same way, where it's a diver, very diverse population, even more diverse today. But growing up, one of the things, I mean, you had different segments of town. There was not a lot of you could see the old kind of effects of redlining and the mortgage industry and housing and all of that stuff. And then Atlanta had a big white flight in the 80s where and so even though it was a diverse city, uh, is very diverse today, and this has gotten better. But I remember as a kid, really, you you pretty much lived among people who largely looked like you and thought like you and all of that kind of stuff. So it's an interesting, interesting thought. Ted, I've always felt a kindred spirit with Ted. So I was here, uh I came to Geist about six months before the pandemic, and then Ted Welcome. Right, welcome. And then Ted started coming to church right after we opened, after kind of the initial pieces of COVID-19, still very much in the midst of a pandemic. We were wearing masks, and so probably the the church you came to has evolved in that time. I mean, I feel like you and I have kind of grown with it a little bit, and that people would come back to in-person worship and be like, Who are you? Well, I've been here 20 years. Well, I've been here six months, but I've been here, you know, it's they just hadn't come back to in-person worship. So kind of what brought you to Geist and what has uh kept you here?
SPEAKER_03Well, let me start with the pandemic. Being one of the few African Americans here in the in the congregation, and I only say this for this example, I met everybody with their mask on. So I still have people that know me, but I don't know them. And so they'll say, Ted, how are you? I'm like, I'm great, but I don't know who you are. You know, and they can tell, like, oh, you this guy's not really sharp with names at all. I mean, can we can we get him a name tag or something? Um, so that was the first thing. I mean, you know, and and and and everybody at Geist was so warm, and they're all like, Hey, how are you? I'll give you a hug and Ted, how are you? I'm like, I don't I I don't remember it. Right. So so I still have that going on today, and people, I'm sure, like, I don't think he's very friendly. I mean, we try. But so, so why did I choose Geist? I'll be very frank with you. I had kind of been on a journey and I was ready to visit churches and pick a church. And I had I was a Methodist uh when I lived over in Zionsville and would go to one downtown. Moved up here, didn't really kind of, you know, nothing personal, but didn't really like the Methodist Church up here. I I just didn't, you know, fit in. Uh not because of anything they did, but it was just more the feeling I had. And so I went to that place down the road with the uh great Sunday morning service and was all ready to join. And then come to find out, well, we have a few rules. One of which, because I'm a parent of an LGBTQ kid, who I love dearly, who to me is just my kid, he couldn't really worship fully there with me. And so walked out of the membership meeting. And good for you for doing that. Well, it wasn't really hard. I mean, it's kind of like a parent, well, we like you, Danny, but you can't bring none of your family with you. Right, okay. Unless they change. Unless they change, unless they start wearing clothes, that'd be helpful. No, but so so that that I was kind of like, well, what do I do now? So I I I called up my my height, my college roommate, and he said, Well, he said, Why don't you try this place uh Geist? I said, Okay, sure. We went, showed up, and I was like, and you you preached that day. It wasn't one of your best sermons, but it was okay. I mean, I saw people weren't falling asleep or walking out going, but I'll tell you what, whoo!
SPEAKER_02I didn't want I didn't want to raise X. Come on, buddy, on your first visit.
SPEAKER_03Ten minutes to the Colts game. Come on, I'll miss the previous. No, no, no. It was shorter sermons in the fall. Definitely in the fall, shorter. Well, we're sleeping sooner too. No, right. Anyway, uh, so so that I I picked guys because people were just they, you know, you kind of walked in here and you felt like, hey, people are just people are just friendly. And and then, you know, my buddy and I, we started attending here together for I guess maybe four Sundays, and we'd go afterwards and get coffee. And I just this just became my church home. And finally I said, well, I guess I'd stand up and join. And then I I joined and I didn't realize, I didn't realize it was a Mud Creek campus. I mean, I kind of knew that, but then you put the fact that I joined in the newsletter. So people are coming up to me like, hey, you joined my church. I'm like, okay, I don't really recognize you and I don't know who you are, but yeah, I guess I did. But I had several people who went to church and I didn't know it, and you know, approached me and said, Hey, we're glad you joined. This is fantastic. Anybody else out there? You're like, these are friendly people. They are friendly people. Let's put it Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So so we are 10 minutes into this podcast. And the one thing folks have probably already noticed is you have a big old personality. I mean, it is outgoing and friendly and engaging. I'm not sure you have ever met a stranger. Have you always had this personality? Is this something you've lived into? Are there experiences that have shifted that? I just you just radiate joy in a way that is such a gift. And I'm curious how how did that come to be? Well, I mean, yeah, he learned it.
SPEAKER_02He learned it in my first sermon.
SPEAKER_03That was my first time, and so then look, I'm gonna come up here for him. You need somebody new. No, uh, up till third grade, none of this. Uh, in third grade, um, for some reason, and I don't know, I don't know what it was, but um I learned to swear, cuss before the rest of the kids in the class. And it was a tremendous tool. That was actually school or out of school. Uh well, I mean, hey, look, I'm in this, I was in a Christian home, Daddy. Preacher's kid. Preacher's kid. He used to put up a list, say, don't say these words. And I go, I'm learning them, Dad. I'm learning them. I'm kidding. Kidding, kidding, dad. So so I I learned to do that, and then I, you know, through the attention, it kind of just fostered this personality. Now, the that's the that's the interesting thing. The bad thing is it became more of a defense mechanism because what would happen is, you know, people are so taken in by all of that that they don't get to know me. And so people who are very, very close to me know that. They're like, okay, what's going on? Because you're really like you're you're I mean, when I'm on on the thing of beauty. But uh, yeah, and and and and they'll they'll reach past that. So it really has been a defense mechanism. You'll find a lot of times when I'm in situations and not sure where to go, I'll go to that.
SPEAKER_01So when did you realize it was a defense mechanism?
SPEAKER_03Oh, immediately. Did you immediately so I would go to uh I remember distinctly, I don't know, what sixth or seventh grade, you know, because you have the youth group, you know, goes away on these retreats and all the crying and kumbaya and guitar playing. And I remember that was a good description of youth retreats all right there. All really I just like I said, I grew up in there. I know these things. Yeah, wow. Anyway, so I realized when someone in the group, several of the group, said, Oh my god, they go, Well, thank God you're here, Ted, because you'll be funny. And and and then I was like, Oh man, so put Ted away, bring out the funny Ted, right? And it was it was like I would watch the room, but this other person was just riffing and going and going and going and going and going, you know. And and in some ways you begin to buy into what that gets you. You also begin to realize that that it is a gift because there are some times when things will hit so quickly. I'm like, I don't, man, that was really good. I wish we could come back and just wallow in that for a while. But it's not who I am, and so that part kind of stays in a different lane altogether.
SPEAKER_02I can see that being difficult. I think as pastors, Kyle, I think you and I probably both identify with the idea that when people see you on a Sunday morning, you're on, right? When I'm preaching, when you're praying in worship or preaching, you're you're kind of on because you're doing public things. And so people will sometimes ask me, Are you always this outgoing? And the truth is, no, I'm not. And so how did you learn it was a defense mechanism earlier? And how do you how do you kind of cope and balance that now with uh just where you you kind of need a a rest from from being who people might think you should be?
SPEAKER_03Well, so I would I would give you a couple of examples. One, if you think of the, I feel like I pick them up, but think about the praise and worship team.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03I mean, sometimes like after the second service, they're like they're out because it's exhausting. So a lot of times I'll be exhausted and I'll say, Oh, you know, it's time you need some rest just to kind of pull back. Uh early on um in in my life, we were a family of prayer. So, you know, you'd have these highs, then the lows, and then you'd find yourself talking to my dad uh about, you know, how I felt and and praying and and and feeling that there was a presence of God that was gonna pull you through this, right? I would learn later that I had anxiety and and and some depression things going on because of some health issues, but also just because that's the makeup of who I am. So then I got some therapy and I have some medication so that so that it doesn't take its toll on me as much as as as it could. But really, how do I refresh and renew from all of that? A lot of it is my faith. A lot of is a lot of it is saying that as a Christian, no matter what my brokenness is, no matter where I am, I can stand or sit in God's presence in a sense of silence and worship and the Holy Spirit and just be enough. You don't have to be on for God. Exactly. However, sometimes I am.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03You know, I mean I I've struggled with God. Can I just I'd like to just pray a simple prayer, right? I mean, whoo, you know, and then and and sometimes I need to learn to just yell at God and go, hey, this is not working. It ain't going well.
SPEAKER_01Now, do you have a place that you lean into that more than others? Is it or is it a a time or a season?
SPEAKER_03Um so you know, I i i I do it in the morning. Uh I have an alarm that goes off in the middle of the afternoon that says pray, and I'll try to stop and do some kind of reflection. There are times when it just hits and I go. Sure. I try to keep my Sundays, the hour for church, open because I think that's important. It's kind of the framework where it's okay to kind of not be doing anything and just kind of focus in. In fact, I get so relaxed sometimes at church I doze off. Not because of preaching, but well, okay. No, you're you're in good company. Okay. All right. So it's really dark in there.
SPEAKER_01I can't go to sleep. I put on a Danny sermon and it's it lulls me right there.
SPEAKER_03And I I guess you'll you'll soon see my sermons on a sleep app. Um I think that you know, the way that uh I tie in to God on a regular play basis is by almost doing a little bit of the walk in and of itself kind of forces me to kind of take a deep breath and exhaust myself in a way that that is naturally leading me into a time of prayer and meditation. I think learning to meditate was was very helpful because learning to stop all of this, not my day, my just stop all of this, um, it in and of itself was kind of a skill that I had to acquire.
SPEAKER_02I think that's a good image though, because I think we we don't often give enough credit to the skills we need to acquire to pray or meditate. I mean, sometimes it's just the skill to force ourselves to slow down, but it is a skill, it's a muscle. The more we the more we work it out, the more we do it. I tend to think the better we get at it and the easier it comes to us. But we have to be intentional about it. Like you said, I love the idea of an alarm. That's that's some really good intentionality.
SPEAKER_03But let me be clear though. I wasn't intentional about it until my world crashed. I mean, it was I I I want to be very careful how I say this because I think sometimes people hear people talking about, man, that guy his his Christianity is pretty good. Mine, my mine's broken and I'm still trying to figure out how it all fits together. The reason that I I got into this space was because I had an experience that where I just I broke, broke, broke everything, and I was contemplating suicide. And so that's kind of the moment when I was like, ooh, I guess I better change what how I'm approaching this thing. And it was at that point that I I got a real sense of what God can do in your life. Um, and let me rephrase that. That God is always with me in my life and he's always been there. I just didn't, you know, you grow up in the background that I did. You're usually making, you know, 80% of your decisions are probably the right decision. So you think, well, hey, this is going pretty well. And then you make that, you make that bad one, right? You pull it on yourself, and then you you break something, and all of a sudden you're like, wow, I guess we're gonna see how real my faith is, because it wasn't.
SPEAKER_01So who was there to help you in that brokenness, help you begin to put the pieces back together?
SPEAKER_03Uh God was. So so I I I was out running and I was I it was hot, one of those hot Indiana days, you know, it feels like you're running in an oven. And I'm not a good runner. I'm in fact, I at that point I probably shouldn't have been running. I should have been you know, one of those paddle classes at the gym with all the ladies who were listening to uh big band music, but I digress. Um and I was sitting there thinking, okay, yeah, it's better for me and the people around me if I go ahead and commit suicide. And I remember I was running, run walking, actually. Okay, I was jaw glimping. And I see this person ahead of you. You were yawning. It was more like yoga than on a on a bicycle. It was bad. It was I mean, it was bad. I don't want anybody like it's yeah, so it was about there running like Jesse Owens in the uh Olympics, thank you. That's what the image I had was you looking like Jesse Owens. Yeah. Yeah, that's the image I always have when I'm running, but it never looks that way. So I and I was I was I I see this person ahead of me, and and um, I'm like, well, now that I've decided I'm gonna end this thing, I might as well go out a winner. So I see this person ahead of me, and I I go, I don't care what I'm gonna do. He because this person's walking. I'm gonna run jog until I can get past him, right? Because I'm like, I'm not going down like that, but I'm going out. So I I do and I catch the person. And this person happens to be someone that I had worked with 30 years ago at IBM. And he goes, I go, is that you? And he goes, Is that you? And I said, Yeah. And he said, Well, you mind walking? I'm I'm I I walk a lot. I go, Yeah, sure. Because I I mean I couldn't I couldn't run another two steps anyway. So we walked and and we started walking and talking, and we shared with each other really openly because our backgrounds were the same. We had all we had made the right decisions at the right times and had on been on this trajectory almost as like the the the the the tokens of our of our race and and it viewed as very successful. And yet in inside, you know, when when we had crises in our lives, it bound us to our faith. And he was able to share that with me. And I I looked like that happened to you? And yet I very much understood what that person was talking about. So that began kind of a gradual kind of pulling, and I don't mean quick, I mean just taking baby steps out of the pit. The other thing that helped is Joel Olstein. And people go, Joel Olstein? I mean, really? Because I couldn't handle any more than what Joel was giving me on the on the on Sirius XM, which by the way, I never listened to that channel very much at all, and it became kind of a regular thing. So between my friend and Joel, I began to kind of slowly claw my way out. And then I began to add maybe a little bit of Bible reading. I started to read the Psalms again because I I couldn't take like I couldn't take anything that was going to tell me, as a Christian, you're not doing enough right now. Because I was like, I don't care. I would say to you is the the the psalm that I that probably resonated the most with me was the one where uh David is like hiding in the cave, who's hiding in the cave? Somebody's hiding in the cave, and they are like, please, Lord, I'm hiding, but but don't let me put be put to shame. That's a lot of times how I felt. I was like, Lord, I know I'm hiding, but don't let me put to be put to shame because I don't think I can handle that right now. I can't handle the shame of what's going on in my life because the people knew they just freak out. And and you know, I took, I mean, I took re refuge in that because I believe that, you know, Gunson, okay, I'm gonna put my arms around you, pull you along. Okay. I'm not gonna be let you let you be put to the shame, but but I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna bring you along. And that's the beauty of that is is that you know, he's always there, but he finds ways to meet us where we are at. The fall for me, the fall for me was just huge, you know, and and you realize how big your ego is, right? And I was the oldest. I mean, I'm not supposed to be getting into trouble. I never got into trouble. And now this situation I have in my life has just broken me. So my prayers were I'm hiding, Lord, because I can't really fight, but please don't embarrass me. I mean, that's a heck of a prayer to pray, right? Because you're like, Oh well, okay. I mean, you you this is the Lord, yeah, you messed it up. Uh we're gonna let you be in bed. Yeah, I was like, just don't let me be put to shame. Please. Because I can't deal with that. It's almost like he knew.
SPEAKER_01All right. How has your relationship with shame shifted since that experience?
SPEAKER_03I'd be lying if I said it was much better. I think I think because I know God is with me and his forgiveness and his grace are truly real to me now. I'm probably able to handle more shame. But I but I don't think that the idea of being embarrassed or or facing true shame is any less a reality in my life than it was before. And I I think when you when you go through a trial, the one thing I've emerged from it from is to really try and be real when I'm talking about what God means to me. So broken hot mess, right? Still broken, hot mess, but I know that God is closer to me now. Not that he moved, I n because I can really I can feel him in a lot of different ways, you know?
SPEAKER_01So I am curious what an experience as an African American male in a predominantly white church for you is like.
SPEAKER_03So I when I grew up, we had we went to two churches, right? We had we had a black church, Sherman Street, which kind of was our home church, and then we had a white church we went to because they had like like I ran hang I rang handbells for all the way until at my sophomore year of of college. You know, I grew up listening to the gospel in our church choirs, but then also going and singing like the Vienna Boys choir, and that's not easy on Sundays as well. So the mixture of of cultures to me wasn't a big deal. And then our our our parents were in something called the Quest group, which was kind of a precursor to the small groups, right? With the white church. So so we really didn't when you say what's it like, I mean, to me, this is kind of like I've always done this. Sure. And throughout our course of our life, we've had help from Christians who are white, Christians who are black. We've gotten heat from both sides too. So when I come into a church, I'm really looking for uh what is what is the love of Christ, what's the body of Christ feel like? Because after that, I mean I don't care. In fact, if I were to boil you know Christianity down to just something very simple, here at Geist, the best example of Christianity is is I call him the coffee guy, right? Because I come in and I'm typically late. He doesn't judge me, he gets me the coffee. In fact, sometimes he knows I'm coming in late. So he has he sees me coming through. Here's your coffee.
SPEAKER_02Bruce is ready for I've seen it.
SPEAKER_03Well, he'll have it. He'll have it out. He'll have it out. He knows Ted's coming in. It's about three, two, and boom. But he is always there, he's always faithful. He he never tries to overreach. I mean, to me, the coffee man kind of, you know, he sets the tone. I mean, you can come in, and yes, we got greeters, right? They hit the button the door for you. But his stability and servant attitude, if you will, of just offering me coffee, not looking at me if I don't put the money in the basket, he does all that with a sense of humility. And what I remember is coming into the church, him offering me coffee like I was anybody else, with without a, you know, an overdone hi, how are you, or an underdone, hmm, here you go. But that to me is kind of what I like about Geist is the people just kind of like me. You know, I mean, I I know I'm kind of a unicorn, but I mean, they they they just kind of like you. They're there, sure. You you feel a belonging in the body of Christ, a connection, if you will. And so that's that's really enough. I mean, I can't expect people to go, Ted's here. Could we go ahead and kill the fatted calf again today, please? No, I I mean I want to be like everybody else. I want to come to church. I want to be challenged by, you know, the word and and I want to, you know, worship and connect with people. I mean, there's some Sundays I do that really well, some Sundays I run out of here like everybody else. But that was my expectation. I I that's what I felt when I came here and I was like, oh, okay, this is good.
SPEAKER_02I think that underlying sense of hospitality is what makes Geist so unique and special, especially compared to other um expressions of church and our community, is that it it is it is real and it it comes from this idea that we're all part of the body of Christ. It comes from Ted Lasso Ted Lasso. It comes from Ted Lasso in a true and good place, the body of Christ or uh or Ted Lasso, one of the two.
SPEAKER_01One I think that's you know, for churches, we we want to see the full expression of God's kingdom. And we and I think for many pastors, you struggle how to do that authentically and and honestly, whether young, old, I mean, you really want a full expression. And I think we we sometimes struggle with that and how to embody and live into that. And maybe we try to overanalyze that.
SPEAKER_03I think I think we do. So my my my my suggestion, um, at the risk of sounding way outside the echo chamber I usually live in, is that as a church, as Christians, we're called to love one another. You know, we should be leading the way and having an open and dare I say it, inclusive environment, but but that doesn't mean we're gonna have that. I think, you know, when I came, I felt the love and the connectedness and you called a hospitality of the church, which is I think if we did more of that, did more of the coffee man, if you will, we would be okay. I think what happens is we try to create these frameworks of what we want the church to be, and and then we go out and do all this quote unquote stuff and we fail at it. I mean, we fail miserably. Like, you know, why doesn't Geist have more blacks in the church? It's who's gonna enjoy this? I mean, it's it's kind of like, you know, who cares? We're trying to love people, right? I mean, in our community, our neighbors, we're trying to love people and show our love. If God wants Geist Church to go out and create a huge African-American following, he will, he will tap you on the shoulder and let you know. I'm fully confident of that. But I think he probably wants to also say, well, there are people within a five-mile radiance that need your help and your love. There are people across the street at that high school with mental health issues that need to know the love of Christ. As I told Danny before when I walked in the day he talked the sermon about mental health, people were like, This is a fantastic service. It was great. You're really going because I've been coming to the second service, so they're ruining the whole thing for me. I was like, that's a lot of expectation. I'm thinking, boy, Taylor Swift is here today. We're gonna, the guest singer, that's gonna be outstanding. I'm gonna be in there the whole time. And then Danny gets up with mental health. Like, okay, I've had therapy, big deal. No, no, but I mean, but but I think that that sharing of who we are and that we we love you, and we're all kind of I I hate to use the word broken, but we all have these things, right? The the problem is that some of us can hide what people call sin easier than others, right? But there are other things that are going on in people's lives that are just as, you know, burdensome in in some cases that we don't talk about, we don't share, you know. I mean, if we all had to come one Sunday with signs around our neck and said, this is my problem, I mean, it it would be like, whoo, but it'd also be a great bonding moment going, I thought they were perfect. So I think that's really, you know, when you talk about connecting and including people, that's the first place to start because people are people are hurting right now. I mean, they are in the church is really, I mean, you know, I I apologize to them. I'm sorry for our religion, we're really messing it up. We're we're pushing people away. Like people are going, I don't want to come, I won't go to church, you know, because they they they what they see, and it's an indictment on all of us, right? But that connectedness, the way God created us to be in communion with one another is is so perfectly wonderful that if we were just to step out on love, right? We probably would solve all these inclusion issues that we have right now because we're trying to reverse what we've messed up.
SPEAKER_02And I think people are hurting. I I love what you say. I mean, if we what's sad to me is the church, the big sea church, has has in some respects walked away from its its mission as a place for healing. That idea that we are broken, we are hurting. We need people in a community where we can heal. And and so many churches have gone the other way to being a place that hurts and not a place that heals. And so I think if we can authentically continue to be a place that heals, that's a good thing. I like what Ted said about God tapping you on the shoulder. That to me is a God tapping you on the shoulder moment. Are we how are we doing on time?
SPEAKER_01And we're doing great. I am curious about uh Danny has this new series of questions in the podcast of uh would you rather So here it is.
SPEAKER_02It's would you rather never be able to go out during the day or never be able to go out at night? So if you had to make a choice between only being able to go out during the day or only being able to go out at night, what would you and we're assuming you live here, not in northern Alaska, let's say. I'd rather go out at night. I'd rather be able to go out at night.
SPEAKER_03Why is that? The silence, the quiet, the ability to just be in nature, the fact that everyone is resting, so to speak, and so you're able to do things and get things done without the pressure of keeping up with everyone else. The fact that to me there's beauty even in the darkness, because I think it's your perspective. You know, I mean, we're all taught when we're young, this is the day that the Lord's made will be rejoice and be glad in it. Most people are like, it's the daytime, he's talking about. But I think it it spans that whole continuum. And so I thank the Lord even for a beautiful night, um, because it is the time when we can rest, but but there are things that are beautiful in the night. I love that answer.
SPEAKER_02I I think I would go night too, if especially if I could include maybe the first hour of daylight. Because I do like that when the sun rises and the house is quiet and being able just to think and meditate and pray, have a little cup of coffee. Kyle, what about you? Not to put you on the proverbial spot. I have no clue. I really don't know which one I would prefer. That's a tough question, isn't it? I mean, Ted brought theology into it.
SPEAKER_01He did. And I I've never thought of the night quite like you expressed it. And there is deep beauty. I mean, I enjoy those late nights. Um, I think what I struggle with is to be present even in those those nighttime moments instead of trying to wait for the next thing to come.
SPEAKER_03Well, the the thing that happens, you know, when you have trials in your life is you learn very quickly that the part of the Lord's Prayer that talks about give us this day, if you can just get through a day, an hour, a minute, it begins to break down. Because a lot of times you can't handle what's going to happen tomorrow. So for me, that stillness is so important.
SPEAKER_02Ted, thank you for joining us today. What a great conversation. That's all we got. That's it. We told you this would be a great experience.
SPEAKER_03Well, I I was hoping for a part two. Well, we may have a part two.
SPEAKER_02We have a we do have more ground to cover with you.
SPEAKER_03So I mean, that is what my agent told me. I was told that I was going to have a part two, a sequel, and I thought maybe.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's next week. Next week, then that's next week. And I hope it's a docudrama book. We're gonna we're gonna add video to the next one.
SPEAKER_03Well, I need I need a Tony. I need a Tony Award, and I don't do musical, so something stage presence, please be good. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01So, Ted, before we let you go, though, we do always kind of at the end, is there any book, movie, podcast, anything that you have read or watched or listened to that might be of interest to uh our audience? It's always fascinating to hear what others are are doing. And and Danny and I are always very quick to say, uh, we watch lowbrow TV. Give me a few explosions and a car chase, and you've wrapped my attention.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I do. I watch a lot of I watch a lot of TV, but I would say if there's a book that was life-changing, there were two. One is Frogs into Princesses by Bandler and Grindler, which is a book I read in college. Don't waste your time on that. Anything by Paul Tillich is important. The book that I I revert back to is Wherever You Go, There You Are. I can't remember who wrote that, but it's a book about meditation. It's it's steeped in a group of people that actually taught this to inner city kids because of the violence and everything that was going on around them. Thought if we can teach these kids to meditate, meditate them.
SPEAKER_01So you were the first non-seminary student I've ever heard to say Paul Tillick. Paul Tillick. I'm super impressed.
SPEAKER_02I knew Ted was a kindred spirit. I know.
SPEAKER_01I just have never I love Tillick.
SPEAKER_03That is that is such a unique response. My dad was a big reader of books and he had books all over the place. And so um what he would do is once he finished the class and as he was going through seminary, he put all these piled books everywhere. And he would also go shop at booking bookstores. And so you had all these books around, so you just kind of pick up and start reading, going, Wow, this is interesting. So at an early age, I got to read a lot of things that I think a lot of people would go, Well, we was doing Little Red Riding Hood, what were you doing?
SPEAKER_02So Tillick had a great idea for a Bible study, Tillic with Ted. Tillick with Ted.
SPEAKER_03Thank you very much. Thank you. The courage to be. There are certain symbols within the church that while they are symbolic, we don't necessarily find them to be idolatry, but we do find them to have a meaning far beyond the symbol itself. And in that way, we are expressing our faith as well. But really, this faith that we have as Christians comes down to our courage to be in this world.
SPEAKER_01And there he is. There it is.
SPEAKER_02There is nowhere that there is, I feel like I'm sitting up there. There is nothing else to say. Uh thank you all. We will see you next time.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Ted. Thanks, Ted.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01This has been another episode of Sacred Sit Downs. We hope you will join us next time as we explore the power of story. We can be found on all major platforms, so be sure to subscribe. As always, thanks for listening. Until next time, this is Sacred Sit Downs.