Sacred Sitdowns
Sharing one’s personal story is sometimes hard, but it is holy. Sacred Sitdowns seeks to allow a safe space for faith-filled conversations with members and friends of Geist Christian Church. Hosts Kyle Brown and Danny Gulden hope that all those who hear will be enlightened and inspired. Listen with us. You’ll be glad you did.
Sacred Sitdowns
Core Value - Inclusivity
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In this episode of Sacred Sitdowns, Danny and Kyle open season four by sitting down with Samantha Copeland, pastor of youth and young adults, to talk about our core value of inclusivity. They explore how the call to welcome every person as a bearer of God's image traces back to Genesis rather than a modern agenda, and share the mentors and moments that first showed each of them what real belonging feels like. Sam and Danny get honest about the discomfort that real inclusivity requires, the temptation to make ourselves the standard instead of Christ, and why being told your church will accept anyone is the best review you could ask for. Tune in for a candid conversation on what it costs, and what it gives back, to be a truly welcoming church.
Let us tell you a story. A story that will challenge, inspire, and change the way you see the world. We're your host. I'm Danny Goulden. And I'm Kyle Brown. And this is Sacred Sit Downs.
SPEAKER_02A conversational podcast that explores how the Spirit of God moves within this world through the power of story.
SPEAKER_01In today's episode, we will sit down with a member or friend of Geist Christian Church as they share their dynamic, faith-filled story.
SPEAKER_02We hope that you will be enlightened and inspired by the words shared today as we gain deeper understanding of ourselves and the world around us. This is Sacred Sit Downs.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to season four of Sacred Sit Downs. Danny, it is good to be with you again for this season. Great to be back. It is good to be back. So often we focus on other people's stories within the life of the church, friends of the church, folks that we know. Uh, because we we understand the power of story and how it shapes and shifts our perspective of one another. And so we thought it would be fun to begin with kind of the church's story through the lens of our core values that we've just come up with.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we underwent a process working among our clergy, our board, our elders to kind of come up with core values. So we're going to unpack these four over the coming weeks inclusivity, faithful curiosity, engagement, and community. And yeah, we thought this would be a great chance to kind of take it beyond what you might hear in a sermon, what you might experience in worship, what you might read in a newsletter.
SPEAKER_01And so today to help us explore what it means to be an inclusive church, we have Samantha Copeland. Sam, to many of us, Sam was on season two of our podcast. If you did not listen to that, you ought to go back and check it out. Uh, but for those that are new to Sacred Sit Down or Geist Christian Church, Sam currently serves as our pastor of youth and young adults. Sam, it is good to have you back on the podcast.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. I'm I'm happy to be back. I'm I'm glad that I didn't scare anybody away last time.
SPEAKER_01I wanted to know what what's a core value for you as an individual?
SPEAKER_02Well, let me give a quick definition of how we're kind of defining core values and then we'll we'll go into that. Core values are like a compass, guiding principles that direct our decisions, our relationships, and even how we see ourselves. For individuals and for churches, they're the heartbeat that keeps us steady. So for me, I think one of my core values is I like to make people feel comfortable in environments. I think just where they can be themselves. So I value authenticity a lot. And so I always try to come across as an authentic person and hopefully create environments where others can come across as authentic as well. Sam, what about you? What's what's a core value that you you hold?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would just like to start off by saying how daunting to think about your core values and who you are as a person. Um, and to do that, it's so much easier to look at like an organization or a group of people and be like, what brings us together? Um, but to look at my individual life and be like, oh, what's my core value? But when I was thinking about it, I recently got a new print that I put in in my house. And it's in my living room, it's one of the first things you see when you walk in and it says, All y'all are welcome here, but you gotta act, right?
SPEAKER_02I like that.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, I d I think that that's one of my core values and not so much the policing how people should act, but more of a joke of, you know, let's be on our best behavior. But just creating spaces that that people are welcome to be themselves in. Uh, like Danny said, authenticity is really important to me. Um, and I think in a world where, you know, we have so many rules and so many things that tell us how to be, I am way more interested in who you actually are and who uh who God has created you to be. Um and I think that that comes out when you are in a space and you are able to be who you are. And then I in return in the in those spaces get to see more of who God is. So welcome and authenticity are really important to me.
SPEAKER_01I think those are great. You know, it's always funny is if we asked other people what they think our core values are and what we think you really hope they align, right? Is that is what the world sees and those people we interact with would say, oh, I I could see that as being an important value, a core value of of who you are and how you live. Uh, you know, to me, I think it's that creating space for people to learn and grow from one another, allowing folks to be fully present, to be uh authentically themselves, allowing uh a space of growth and maturity and questions and kind of all that that goes into spaces that for me have been very life-giving and and life-sustaining. And so I really relate to to those experiences, those values that you all share, because I think that's what I hope people would say about me and the spaces I create. But uh it's also what I hope the churches that I've worked with and in would also say uh about those spaces and places.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell I think you want, I think all of these lead into seeing other people flourish, which I think is a very important part of ministry, teaching, coaching, whatever it is, is is helping other people flourish. And I think just working with both of you, I think we all get joy when we see other people really flourish and become the best version of themselves.
SPEAKER_01So as we move into uh our first core value of what it means to be an inclusive church, uh, how do you see or how have you seen that play out in the church?
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell On Sunday, we talked about, you know, sometimes people hear the term inclusivity and they think it is a ethic or a value that people are making up because they have a particular agenda, right? And so I thought it was important to sort of bring back in not only the Romans text, but also Genesis 1, where we hear that God makes humankind in God's image. So right from the very beginning, the idea that that every human being has value, every human being reflects the image of God is a biblical ethic right at the beginning. And so before anything else gets going in the biblical story, that's where we start from. And so I think reframing it, because I think a lot of people when they hear the term inclusivity, they think it's something someone made up, you know, 20 or 30 years ago. And actually, it's really one of the it's part of the creation narrative in Genesis. And so it's really our starting point. We can't really go anywhere unless we are seeing that image of God in every person.
SPEAKER_01And so who's someone that helped you recognize that divine spark, that divine image that that is part of that creation story, but part of our story?
SPEAKER_02Before we get to that, I I do want to say when it comes to being welcomed for myself, I I want to name that as a straight white male, there are very few of privilege, there are very few spaces in my life where I've walked into where I wasn't automatically welcomed just because of whatever, right? And so as you asked me that question, and even as I was preaching about it Sunday, I I feel I feel kind of limited because there's very few spaces I haven't been welcomed into. Um, I mean, I do remember growing up in the church. I mean, my Sunday school teacher just took in, we had a wonderful Sunday school teacher. I'm not sure how we divided the classes because I remember having her for like four or five years, but she was there every Sunday and just welcomed whoever. I mean, we had a a fairly diverse church growing up, and so it was an opportunity for me to be around people that didn't look like me and think like me and act like me. And so um I really valued that early Sunday school experience, right? Um, and I'm still grateful for that. But I I also know that I'm I'm still probably when it comes to creating welcoming spaces, I'm still learning a lot about what that means.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00For me, the first person that comes to mind is um my youth minister when I was in junior high. Her name's Susan, you know, pointing out like Danny did, I am a white female, like I have and hold a lot of privilege. And I felt a lot of welcome from Susan. Susan, one of the things that she loved to do was encourage our middle school weirdness. Anytime we'd be like, oh, that's so weird. She was like, That's so weird, isn't that so great? And so, you know, for a seventh grader, I was like, Yes, I love being weird. And the church to me was the space where I got to be myself. And there was no boundaries of, I mean, there were boundaries, boundaries are good, but there were no walls up of like, oh, I need to act a certain way or or I need to be cool in this way, which is really important to a seventh grader. But I I just got to be myself and explore those things. And and Susan really encouraged those by just being positive and happy with us. But looking back, one of the most important things to me is that I didn't realize at the time that I was being influenced by a strong woman in the church. And so I've been very privileged that my entire church experience, I have never even questioned that a woman in the pulpit, a woman preaching and teaching would even be something that someone would question. And so I am so grateful for that. And having grown up now and seeing that and being a minister myself and learning and hearing of other women who have fought against that and had to push past that, I give such great thanks for my experience in the church that in that small way and in a way that I think is just normal was very inclusive and not only helped me as a middle schooler um be able to combat the awkwardness and the toughness that is being a middle schooler, but also ingrain in me just a normalcy of inclusivity.
SPEAKER_01As you were talking, uh, some of the folks that that came to mind for me were older women in the church as well. And it probably hits it would hit me differently than it it would hit you. And at the same time, I don't think it was something that I really realized at that particular time of the power of seeing powerful female leaders who didn't have a a pastoral role, but had a role of service within the church, uh, both in front and behind the scenes in many ways, and what a gift that was that I probably took for granted in many ways growing up. Aaron Ross Powell Those type of people are so prevalent in the church that you just take for granted they're everywhere in some ways. Aaron Powell And I'll never forget the first time that someone asked me my opinion. What did I think? And being a a youth serving as a person on the board, a youth representative or something, just someone turning to me and go, Well, Kyle, what do you you think about this? And not just asking, but actually was curious to what it is I would say uh and and seemed to take the time to pay attention to to what it is that I thought was important on a particular issue. And and I thought that was such a gift because I was a kid, right, in in a room full of adults. And so to have that to have that space where I could feel included, uh, to have my voice heard, I thought that was extremely important in my faith development.
SPEAKER_00And as someone who had a similar experience with that and and acknowledging that not everyone has that experience in the church growing up, I noticed how much it changed who I was and how I presented myself outside of the church. Like that helped create who I was. I was a incredibly shy child. And then I was encouraged through the church to share my wisdom, which I didn't know I had. And there was not many places outside of the church where I was being given the notion that I had any wisdom, that I had anything to contribute as a young person at the time. And that led to, hey, maybe I'll go try out for this dance team. Okay, like maybe I'll go try for leadership in other places because the church saw me and I was able to live more fully into the person that I am instead of the person that the world was wanting and hoping for me to be.
SPEAKER_02So on the flip side of that, for either of you, was there a time you didn't feel like you belonged? How did that impact your faith?
SPEAKER_01And I think we highlighted that all of us come with an element of privilege, right? Being a straight white male, a white female, we we come with that to the table. It is something that we have all named. And yet, even with that, there are times where we are not accepted for who we are. Or the world tells us that we need to look differently, be differently, act differently. And so as the world goes, sometimes we find ourselves in spaces and places in which we don't feel as if if we belong. Even though we may have power and privilege, it's still an experience that is scarring and that in many ways we carry throughout the rest of our lives.
SPEAKER_02There there have been spaces when I think about belonging where maybe I haven't felt like I belong, but more so like I was an imposter. I remember taking a class in college, I was a political science major, and I took an elective called Gender and Ethnicity Problems in International Relations. And I went into that class thinking I was a pretty enlightened person. But there was so much wisdom and diversity and different experiences in that room. Um, and some of the issues we talked about, just felt like I know nothing about being inclusive or welcoming or, you know, here I am. And and there were all these things that just introduced me. And there were moments in seminary where that happened too, from contextual education, working in a in a women's prison, and just understanding the dynamics of that and how things play into how women end up in prison and whether that's racial or socioeconomic. And so there's moments which I think for my faith is good because it propels me forward to remind me. I don't have it always figured out. Sure. Um, and so I don't know if I I've been in spaces where I didn't feel like I belong, but I've definitely been in spaces where I felt like in a in a in a way that moved me forward as an imposter.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's such a good point to also note the the really hard difference between the the spaces that we're trying to belong in and that we want to create be belonging. Um, and that is very important. But also that doesn't mean that we're not ever gonna be uncomfortable. We are gonna be uncomfortable and to include and stick to this core value of inclusion, that this ethic of inclusion and seeing the image of God within every person, there's gonna be a lot of times where how we have found belonging, how we have found welcoming and inclusivity in the ways that things are right now might get shaken up and changed. And that feels really uncomfortable, that is different from then being unwelcomed ourselves. So I would I would say to Danny's point, there there's nothing that's popping up for me as a moment within the church that I did not feel belonging and where I did not feel welcomed. And that is so important to my faith because I've felt that so many times outside of the church and so many places outside of my faith realm. But God is always someone I can come back to as someone of loving me for who I am, exactly as I am, and the person that I'm becoming as well. And that's not the experience that everyone has. And so I guess holding on to that more so for me is something that I want to make sure everyone has that experience.
SPEAKER_02So let's talk about Geist Christian Church and how we live out our inclusivity today. One of the things I said uh in my sermon, it's always good to paraphrase yourself, was in introducing the core values was to say, I hope that you these are these are appealing to you. I hope that this is a church you would invite someone to, but most importantly, that these are core values that you've already experienced even without us naming them, that when we name them, it feels already like, yes, this is who we are. So how do we live out inclusivity today?
SPEAKER_01In a world that I think is fascinated with labels and checking certain boxes or creating silo echo chambers in which we kind of find our group and they seem to meet all the litmus tests that we may place before them. And I think the world wants us to create those tribes and to stay in those tribes and to live in those tribes. And so to me, church is that one place that should challenge us or at least model what it looks like to bring people from a variety of tribes together to learn and to grow from one another. Uh Ryan in his sermon on Sunday said, I want people to look at our church and say, what in the world do those people have in common? They are so different in how they may vote or how they may view a particular issue. I don't understand what it is that brings them together. And yet we continue to create space where people want to come week in and week out and create experiences outside the walls of this church where people can come together and rub shoulders with folks that may not necessarily believe or think exactly like they do. And I think there's power in that.
SPEAKER_00I think one of the beauties of Geist and how I see this being lived out is when someone asks me to describe the church as it is and our members and you know, demographically, there are many ways that I'm like, well, we're kind of all over the board. And that's that's exciting. Like that's exactly and exhausting. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00That is the beauty and and the challenge of of having a core value of inclusivity and and and being a church in general. But I think it is so true, and I think it's so hard to pinpoint and define. And that is what makes it so beautiful and so exhausting. But but so good. And and that's how I see guys living out inclusivity today. And I think we have a lot of growing edges there too. I I think at any point, any church, any community, any person who says, I think I've mastered inclusivity. I think I'm pretty good at welcome. I don't know if that's a good place to be. I think it's always a challenge. It's always something that you are pushing forward in. Because the thing about inclusivity is that it is going to be uncomfortable. And that it is, it is a challenge, but it has so many beautiful things on the outside of it. Like when you push past that challenge, because what you're asking for in inclusivity is that everyone's wholeness is recognized, is received, right? And right when you get comfortable and good with your wholeness and the wholeness of those around you, someone else comes in, maybe, and changes that view that you have, changes what that looks like. And so we have the opportunity to either get uncomfortable ourselves and kind of change with that, accept that newness, honestly, muddle through it together. Cause let's be honest, it's never perfect. It never looks really, really great. Or settle for someone else to be uncomfortable, to sacrifice their authenticity, to sacrifice who God created them to be in order to fit in to a circle or a set of rules that have been made up, honestly. And so I just think at some point we're all going to be uncomfortable and that's gonna be a challenge.
SPEAKER_01And I think one of the things that's important to highlight is is as a pastoral staff, we get uncomfortable. And and we name that as well. I mean, I always tell folks, I'm really preaching to myself here. You just get a chance to listen to my inner dialogue as I preach this sermon. Like if you're uncomfortable, I promise you this entire week, I've been wrestling with that, that, that level of uncomfortableness that you're experiencing right now. I've been muddling through it, wrestling with it. I'm as uncomfortable as you are.
SPEAKER_02Really, we're letting you in on a conversation we've been having with ourselves and the text all week, and it's a continuing conversation, and now we're we're bringing you into it. What I have learned about myself at least is when I am not as welcoming or inclusive as I would like to be, or as I would like to fancy myself, it's because I've made myself the standard. I'm the center that everybody should be like. When really it's Jesus that we're supposed to model our lives after, but I have made myself the standard, and so you're not like me. And so I think that's one of the growing edges of faith is to understand that people are not supposed to be like you. You're not the center of the universe. And that can be difficult. I mean, that happens to me all the time. Um, I think that happens for all of us.
SPEAKER_00For sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You had you had a great line from Anne Lamont in your sermon this past week. You said, You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out God hates all the same people you do. That's absolutely true.
SPEAKER_02I think that's one of the the sins we commit is that we think everyone's supposed to be made in our image, right? Yes. Uh, and not God's image.
SPEAKER_00And I think one of the the gifts of inclusivity is the depth we get in our faith when we allow ourselves to come in contact with other perspectives, with other life experiences. That only deepens the breadth of the spirit that we're seeing, of the creation that God has created. And we would not have that if we decided that we all needed to think and act and look and be the same. That is a disservice, in my opinion, to who our God is. God is so much bigger than that.
SPEAKER_02A mentor once challenged me with this question, and it kind of stays with me. He asked me once, how much time do you spend with people that aren't like you? And what he meant was live in the same community, same race, same sexuality, same socioeconomic status. And I'm always confronted by that question because I realize that I spend a lot of time around people who are just like me. And most of us do. And so one of the reasons I think the church can be such a powerful place is Kyle, you mentioned there are fewer and fewer places right now in our culture where we can spend time with people who aren't like us. Sure. The church can actually become and be a place where we can actually go. I mean, it's countercultural, which the church is always at its best when it's countercultural, where we spend time with people who aren't like us. Uh, you know, don't aren't the same sexuality, don't vote the same way, don't make the same amount of money, not don't, don't come from the same racial background. I mean, all of that stuff. The church can be a place where we can spend time with people who aren't like us, but in the name of Jesus, in this fellowship of shared mission and ministry and all of those things.
SPEAKER_01And I think that's what Jesus modeled so well that the church could really embrace more, is Jesus always met people where they were at. Jesus never said, hey, come and model and be exactly like me. Let me come hear your story. Let me sit with you where you are at. And I think the church, to me, that that's what a church when we include is when you come through these doors, I don't want you to fit a certain mold in order to say that I'm a member of Geist Christian Church. Um, I want our church to be a place where we sit with others where they're at, learn their stories, learn their experiences. And because of that time spent together, we grow as a community. And the fullness of who God is calling us to be is lived out in a way that I think is is quite beautiful for my hope, our church, but but any church that gathers week in and week out.
SPEAKER_00Yes, for sure. And one of the things that I wanted to highlight is that when writing our our statement about inclusivity, the term radical welcome was used. And I know that that can be a little uncomfortable to use the word radical, but like Dany said, one of the key things about the church is being countercultural at many times. And I think in our in our culture, in our world, we want to build systems that that allow for power, right? So you want to keep people with their own people, you want to keep people separated so that power can be gained, right? And so it is radical that the church wants to bring people together to talk, to see one another eye to eye, because you you lose the power there. And Jesus was not about gaining power. That's not what our faith is about. That's not what the church is supposed to be about. And so to welcome and be inclusive is radical.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's about transformation and growth. And that any growth change makes us uncomfortable. It's not a bad thing to be uncomfortable. I think when you look back upon any season of growth in any in your own life and any community you've ever been a part of, there are uncomfortable moments. You don't grow and change without some uncomfortable things going on. I also value the church as a place where we can come and experience some level of comfort. This is home, this is our place, this is where I'm accepted for who I am. When we come in on Sundays from the chaos of the world and just to have that moment to be comfortable, but also to be a little uncomfortable, to look and say, how do what do I need to do differently? How do I need to live differently? How do I need to see other people differently? And so there's that mix of both being comfortable and uncomfortable that leads to our growth and faith.
SPEAKER_00And not to jump ahead on our core values, but I think it's important that we're in community together doing this.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00So that, you know, in the moments when I I think back to the times in my life, going through the most immense amount of growth that I did that was the hardest and most painful, I I think about the people that were around me. And so that's why we do this together, that we find comfort in one another and that we're living authentically what life is. We don't come here to escape life. We come here to embrace life.
SPEAKER_01And you know, you talk about jumping ahead. I I think inclusivity is something that we've highlighted today, but uh being curious helps with us including one another, our engagement with one another, as you mentioned, our community. I mean, all of those build and flow into this idea of being a welcoming church, saying that all are welcomed. And boy, that's a really great tagline. There's more to it than just saying, hey, all are welcomed here. It requires action. And sometimes that action may be giving up a little of ourselves so that someone else may feel a level of welcome that they have not experienced walking in the doors of a church.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell When we were wrestling with the word radical, I think one of the reasons we felt strongly that it should be included is because most every church will say we uh well, sure, we welcome all, right? Because every church, for the most part, wants to grow, expand its witness. And but what happens is you get into some churches and you find out you're not really you're welcome to worship and give, but you're not really welcome to serve in leadership or you're not welcome to participate in certain things. And we're gonna try to change you into what we think you should be like. And for me, I I'm just trying to help you understand who God has made you to be, not who who I think you should be. And I think there is a difference in that. And so creating an environment where you can discern who God has created you to be and what God is calling you to do and be, uh, that's that's to me what it's all about. And so I think everyone deserves that opportunity.
SPEAKER_00Sure. And that's gonna include change and growth, but not on our terms.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00That's not for anyone within this community to to lay out how someone else is is growing and changing, but for us to walk alongside one another as that occurs.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell We're partners in that work, not your overseers.
SPEAKER_01So one of the things that that came up uh at Mud Creek on on Sunday, and I just loved this illustration because I had forgotten about it. But you know, everything these days uh wants a review, right? You go to your doctor, plumber, who whoever you've just visited, they send you something and uh they want you to rate or review your experience uh that you just had. And so Ryan shared uh a review that we once got on Facebook, I believe, or it may have been on Google, someone reviewing our church. We got we got one star, right? Usually it's one to five. We we got a one-star review. And their critique of our church was don't go there, they'll accept anyone. One star. One star. They'll accept anyone.
SPEAKER_02I think to me, someone says they'll accept anyone. I I think that's a five-star review.
SPEAKER_00That sounds like something someone would say about Jesus.
SPEAKER_02Well, that was a knock on Jesus. I mean, we haven't really talked about that, but the fact that Jesus would let anyone follow him really uprooted the whole system of discipleship at that point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I I wear that one star review with honor.
SPEAKER_01Actually, as I'm thinking of and I'll probably cut this out, but you I've seen these shirts where folks have, I see you, you're seen, just know that I hope you're yeah, it's kind of like if someone's standing in a line, they see the back of your shirt. And I think if we did a shirt with a logo on the front, I think we took that one star review. If we took that one star review and made that the tagline of the back of a shirt, I think that would be really cool. I'd like people to comment if they'd purchase that shirt. I mean some feedback on that. Ultimately, uh the best compliment any church can get is I felt welcomed when I walked through the doors of that church. Felt seen.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think in all seriousness too, that speaks to how hard this is, though. And like the person who left that, I can understand. Like getting to a space where you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I thought that we were supposed to be this way or this thing, and I worked really hard to be this certain way, and I walked into this church and they just let anyone in here, you know, that's that's an honest and real feeling. And I get that. And so the hope isn't that you wouldn't feel that. The hope is that you would feel that and investigate that. Be faithfully curious to that.
SPEAKER_01And we're gonna explore a little bit next week. That's a good lead-in. Very good lead-in. To be faithfully curious. What does it mean to be a to have a posture of curiosity? And I I think that is a great way to end our time today as we move from what it means to be an inclusive church to what it means to be a church that is faithfully curious with one another and with scripture and who God is calling us to be in this world. Great to be back. Great conversation, everyone. Absolutely. Sam, thanks for joining us today. Look forward to having other staff join us as we kind of move through these core values. But thanks for being with us today.
SPEAKER_00Thanks so much for having me. Hey, I'm looking forward to this new merch that we're getting with the one-star review on the back. I can't wait.
SPEAKER_01I like it. This has been another episode of Sacred Sit Downs. We hope you will join us next time as we explore the power of story. We can be found on all major platforms, so be sure to subscribe. As always, thanks for listening. Until next time, this is Sacred Sit Downs.