Sacred Sitdowns
Sharing one’s personal story is sometimes hard, but it is holy. Sacred Sitdowns seeks to allow a safe space for faith-filled conversations with members and friends of Geist Christian Church. Hosts Kyle Brown and Danny Gulden hope that all those who hear will be enlightened and inspired. Listen with us. You’ll be glad you did.
Sacred Sitdowns
Core Value - Faithful Curiosity
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In this episode of Sacred Sitdowns, Danny and Kyle welcome Ryan Hazen, lead pastor of the Mud Creek campus, to talk about our core value of faithful curiosity. They explore what it means to trade certainty for curiosity, from Mother Teresa's invitation to come and see, to the childhood questions about baptism and communion that never really stopped mattering as they grew older. Ryan and Kyle talk honestly about the questions they are still wrestling with themselves, why pastors who claim to have all the answers should raise a red flag, and how giving people permission to sit in mystery might be one of the church's best gifts. Tune in for a conversation on why not knowing is not a weakness of faith, but often the beginning of it.
Let us tell you a story. A story that will challenge, inspire, and change the way you see the world. We are your host. I'm Danny Goolden. And I'm Kyle Brown. And this is Sacred Sit Downs.
SPEAKER_02A conversational podcast that explores how the Spirit of God moves within this world through the power of story.
SPEAKER_01In today's episode, we will sit down with a member or friend of Geist Christian Church as they share their dynamic, faith-filled story.
SPEAKER_02We hope that you will be enlightened and inspired by the words shared today as we gain deeper understanding of ourselves and the world around us. This is Sacred Sit Downs. Hello, everyone. Welcome to episode two of season four of Sacred Sit Downs. I'm Danny Gouldin. Along with Kyle Brown, Kyle will introduce our guest, Ryan Hayes, and we're going to be talking about our second core value today, Faithful Curiosity. Welcome. We're glad you're here.
SPEAKER_01Kyle, how are you doing this morning? It's good to be here. I think looking at our core values to kick off this season is just a great way to focus on the church's story as we hear from uh a variety of voices for each one of these core values.
SPEAKER_02So when we're talking about core values, what we're talking about is uh core values are fundamental beliefs and guiding principles that shape behavior and action. They serve as the compass of a person or a church directing decisions, priorities, and relationships. And so if you missed the first episode, I encourage you to go back and uh listen. Last week, uh Sam Copeland was on talking about inclusivity, which was our first value.
SPEAKER_01Today uh on our show, we have a person who needs no introduction. Brian has been a part of Geist Christian Church. Ryan, how long have you been working at Geist Christian Church? And combine both times, because I know you worked and then you took a sabbatical and then you came back, and not like a church sabbatical. You went and took another job for a while.
SPEAKER_00Fifteen year sabbatical.
SPEAKER_01Fifteen year sabbatical? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I was a long sabbatical. I was here I did not. They took me off the barrel. Uh I was here three years as a seminary intern, or three years during that time, and then came back in late 2005. So I've uh gone on uh twenty years this time. So twenty-three.
SPEAKER_01And Ryan currently is the lead pastor of the Mud Creek campus. Ryan's done a lot of different uh jobs here in the life of the church, but I think his favorite is sweeping the sanctuary on Friday afternoons, right?
unknownAll right.
SPEAKER_00Or unplugging a toilet. They're sort of one and two.
SPEAKER_02I like the sweeping though, because it you feel like you're preparing for Sunday. Oh, that's true. That feels like part of the preparation. So I'm a honeymoon. I read this book by Shane Claiborne. Hold up. You went on your honeymoon and took a Shane Claymore book. I did. I love Shane Claymore, but he's not exactly vacation reading.
SPEAKER_01He is not, and I will say Did Sarah find it romantic? She she did not. So Shane tells a story near the end about wanting to get in contact with Mother Teresa and they want to come and visit. And most of the folks, when they would ask Mother Teresa about what it is that she is doing in Calcutta, she would always say come and see. She would always lead with, You have to come, you have to come and experience it. I can't tell you what it is that we do. It's something that must be experienced. You must come and see. And one of the things that she always would leave people with as they would end their time there, is she would say, Calcuttas are everywhere. If only we have eyes to see. Go and find your own calcutta. Meaning, you don't need to do what I'm doing, you don't need to be here doing the work that I'm doing. But there's calcuttas throughout the world, uh, throughout our communities. Go find those who who need um help, uh, who need to be seen, who need a voice and provide uh that uh comfort, um that presence and that voice for that community, wherever it may be. And I always thought that was such a a curious thing uh to ask someone.
SPEAKER_02So Ryan, I want to ask you the question and in your thoughts and your um in your mind, how does curiosity what is why does curiosity matter for people of faith today?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think I mean curiosity uh means that we don't have all the answers, and I think that's a great starting point. And you know, I many times people look to us as pastors like we have the answers, and one of the things that I've learned to say is I don't know. Uh and but that we can we can work on that together. So I think that curiosity it it defines disciples of Christ, but it defines Geist Christian Church as, you know, we we are learning together, and that's okay. That that's nothing to be ashamed of.
SPEAKER_01You know, I think that's it's interesting in the sense that that statement in and of itself is pretty counter-cultural in in a culture where, you know, it's important or we feel like we have to have all the answers. We have to know everything. When somebody asks you a question, you feel the need to have a response. To say, I don't know is not a natural response in in I think our current societal setting. And so did you have someone to kind of model that curiosity or that uh willingness to engage or to ask the question why?
SPEAKER_00Well, my upbringing sort of took a shift. And I'm not exactly sure when that was, but but my my grandfather was one of my mentors, but he was a Wesleyan lay minister. He worked on the railroad, and I don't think this is true of Wesleans now, but at that time they had the answers. And so I went to Bible school there, I went to Wednesday night prayer meeting with him, we went to church with him, and so you know, the the sword drills and all the rest. And that was a church that had the answers, and you know, you were being spoon fed. When I was probably uh ten to twelve, um we moved across town, and uh that was more than the move because the move across town was all of a three-minute commute uh from uh but I think somehow my parents took that opportunity to to s change churches. And we sort of had a new start. And I I you know it's one of those things you wish you would have talked to your parents about, uh and I never talked to my parents about, but my mom and dad and I were baptized on the same day uh in 1970, so I would have been 10. Uh and there was a there was a shift, so at First Christian Church in Ottawa, Kansas, and that was certainly a shift from and I don't know whether, you know, I wish I would know have known if my parents did that intentionally or not, but that was sort of a shift that because coming to First Christian Church from what I had known previously, you could tell that something was different. Obviously I couldn't articulate that at 10 years old, but you could tell that something was different because you were you were allowed to explore the stories. And, you know, my Sunday school teacher, Mrs. Kiefer, was just one for, you know, later on the curriculum, you know, worship and wonder became very popular. You know, she she could have done worship and wonder in the 1960s before it became a thing. Right. Uh and it was because she lets you do that. So, you know, it it really was it really was that that sort of shift. And then I was involved in, you know, the youth groups and that sort of thing that also allowed that curiosity.
SPEAKER_01I told the church on on Sunday that over my years of doing youth ministry, that youth when they go off to college, they're gonna have different experiences, they're gonna meet people, they're gonna invite them to their churches. And I said, if you ever walk into a church and the pastor has all the answers, run. Because to me that that's uh something that stifles that curiosity. If you can always go to one person and they always have the answers, especially when it comes to our faith, uh, that's something to me that's always been uh a little bit of a red flag. I think there's power in the ability to wonder and to lean into that curiosity uh as our faith grows and changes.
SPEAKER_02In the world rewards certainty. We live in a day and age where if you say something and say it like you know it, people believe it. And what Jesus models for us is curiosity, that it's not a weakness. I think about the passage that both Kyle and I preached on uh this past week, the John 1, 35 through 39. And I I I have come to appreciate the Gospel of John because if you look at the first three Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, they're written a little bit earlier. They're all kind of anticipating Jesus coming back really soon and things being very different. And then you see John, written, you know, 80, 90 years after Jesus lived, sort of reflects living, right, as disciples and trying to figure out what it means to follow Jesus. And so that encounter when two would-be disciples of Jesus come up and ask him questions and they ask him where are you staying, right? He could have easily sent them over at the courtyard by Marriott, right, in Jerusalem. They've got a great breakfast buffet, whatever. And he just says, come and see. And so he invites them into relationship and he invites them into learning and growing more. And I wish, and I think we do this really well at Geist. This is why I love this core value. I think most people are intimidated by church or feel like they can't be them full their full selves at church because they feel like they have to have it all figured out. And I lament the church that has just everyone acting like they have it figured out when no one does, rather than the church. I I love the church that values curiosity as a strength.
SPEAKER_00I've had a number of people tell me over my years about why they haven't gotten involved in a Bible study. It's like, well, I don't know the Bible well enough. It's like, okay, that's the reason to be in Bible study, not the reason to stay away from Bible study, you know. I don't know. I I think it was I quoted it and now I'm gonna try to quote it off the top of my head. The the book Martin Copenhaver, the 307 Questions That Jesus asked and the four he answered is sort of the title of the book. That sounds close to right.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I I think again back to your point. I think people think we have all the answers as well when it comes to those Bible studies. And you know, every time I do a study, I learn something new.
SPEAKER_02I always encourage people when they're when in a class or when they're you know doing a Bible reading plan or something, that always be always be writing questions. Any question that arises for you as you get to because um yeah, you're right. I think sometimes as a it's weird to say to ministry as a professional, but they think we've been to seminary and so we learn the Bible. And I I said uh all the time, I say all the time, I'd learned very little about the Bible in seminary, but I did learn techniques for reading it and and things like writing questions in the margins. You know, why did he say that? Why did they go there? Um I think the more wonder and curiosity we can bring to reading scripture, the deeper we're gonna go with it.
SPEAKER_01So uh we both kind of began with the wonder of children. So they're constantly asking questions, right? Like, where did the sun go? Why do I have to go to bed? I mean, there's a lit it felt like from sun up to sundown, our daughter was always asking us questions. But somewhere along the way, we lose that wonder. We feel like we have to give up the ability to to to wonder for that sake of of certainty. Do you remember an early wonder question you had when it came to church and your church experience or about God?
SPEAKER_00Well, the first the first piece, and you know, I go back to that shift when, you know, my parents and I were baptized together and at 10, and and part of it is I did not, they decided for me. And so there was no pastor's class, there was no preparation, there was no what does this mean? And so getting my head around baptism was it, you know, so that that was probably that's the earliest sort of theological question that I can remember having is and you know, I just thought it was so cool because the the floor of the chancel, you had to pull the floor off, and there was this almost this stock tank underneath the floor, and it was not heated, by the way. And so, you know, the cool part to me was walking down these wooden steps into into this stock tank that was in the floor of the chancel that I had no idea was there, but trying to understand why am I doing this? What what does this what does this have to do with anything? And so I I think that's that's sort of what I recall as sort of my first big theological question that I was trying to understand is, you know, in baptism that was something that was decided for me. And, you know, obviously I remember that moment and baptism, to your point, about as it as we read the Bible, things change, we see things differently. That moment of baptism and how I've understood it has changed dramatically from being enthralled with the logistics of it.
SPEAKER_02I had a I had a lot of questions about communion as a child because in the uh church I grew up in, First Christian Church of Decatur, Georgia, we there was no children's worship or anything like that. You know, so if you you went to Sunday school and then you sat through worship. And so I as a kid, I would sit with my gr my grandparents. They they lived close to the church. We lived a little bit farther away, so we'd always go together. And I was always just curious about the bread and the juice and why do we have to eat the wafer that's passed instead of the the nice looking bread on the table? And why does the juice taste old? And what does this mean? Are we really drinking Jesus' blood? What's and so I I just had constant why do we do this every time? A lot of questions about communion that really opened up, you know, that as I grew up, the questions about the table became broader of who was welcome and why do we welcome everybody and what does that mean? And so it really it really helped me. And I even had, you know, I had a couple of really good friends who uh growing up who were Catholic, and so you know, first communion in that tradition is a big deal, and they would usually do that around, you know, 10, 11, 12 years old, somewhere in there. And and and I remember saying, I don't know why this is a big deal for you all. I do this every week. Um which, you know, was but so that even led to other well, why why do they have to wait till then? And so really the the table is kind of the central piece of worship for me was the I just always had questions about that.
SPEAKER_01So I did have a pastor class experience, uh, and it was so good I did it twice, Ryan. I did you fail the first time or you just I know I knew I knew you all. Uh I'm a repeater. I'm a repeater. I had a lot of questions the first time I went through. Uh the Bible says, uh, don't kill and yet we go to war. I remember asking my pastor that question. Uh dinosaurs. I mean, all these just kind of it was almost like I remember the childhood stories and then began to start seeing them through a different lens. And and you know, it's some of those things that I I just didn't I didn't understand. I couldn't put words to. I just knew that things aren't matching up the way that I once saw them as a kid. And I'm not quite an adult, but I've got the this part of my faith journey that I I don't quite know what to do with or what's next for me. And so I went through pastor's class, I asked a lot of questions, and I decided I wasn't ready for for baptism at that point. And so kind of went through it again. It was a really good experience. Um, I think what I learned is I don't need to have all the answers, and that's okay. And to your point, it was awesome because any church that says this is a really good thing to go through, but afterwards allowing a child to make a decision instead of feeling like you need to do it, there's power in that. And so I I really do give thanks that I had the ability to to kind of say I need a little more time with this. But yeah, I'm I failed at the first time I get it.
SPEAKER_02Well, my favorite part of our pastor's class here is when the kids ask questions because they ask some of the best questions, and I also suspect these are questions the adults in their lives are wanting to ask as well, but are afraid to do so. Right.
SPEAKER_00Because they've become an adult. Right, right.
SPEAKER_02And so as we sit here, I'm thinking, and this may be more work for all of us, which would be but also offering like a pastor's class for adults who've already been baptized but want to be a repeater in it and and you know, however many years after their baptism, continue to learn and grow and ask just based around the questions they have.
SPEAKER_00I think just as we've you know, one of the things I've suggested as we started Core Values is, you know, if you haven't thought about your own core values, your individual core values, now's a good time to do that. I mean, we all have them, we just haven't articulated them. I think you know, the the same the same thing is true in that regard. Right. That you know, that i if you know we have pastor's class kids write a credo, you know, you know, what God and Jesus and you know what I I believe. If you haven't done that as an adult, it's a good time to start.
SPEAKER_02And I write one with them, and I Ryan, you do too. And I go back and look, and every year I've taught pastor's class, my credo is slightly different because I don't look at the previous years for the and it it's I think that's pretty cool that it's reflects time and place and growth and doubt and all that good stuff.
SPEAKER_01So speaking of pastor's class and this kind of exploratory time of of helping define our faith and and how we see God and and and Jesus and the Spirit moving in and through our lives, what is a question that you remember or that's been impactful for you as a pastor that's been asked to you? You may not know the answer, but it's been a great question that that kind of made you stop and think for a minute.
SPEAKER_00I think I would it's hard to remember specific questions. One of the one of the greatest responses that I remember um in a Credo, and it sort of became a question that God is the great zookeeper. And I remember having a back and forth with that student. She was so intent on on understanding all of God's creation, and I think was questioning that God is a God of all and not a God for some. So, you know, she put us in in the zoo with everybody else, and I thought I I just I loved her line of questioning that got to that point that you know, that for that for that piece of her credo.
SPEAKER_02The one for me when um the years I directed high school camp, CYF conference, we would always put up, we would always have a question box where kids could come and ask questions and and then at the end, you know, at the end of the day, before we'd go into Vespers, uh directors, counselors, we'd come pull them out and you know, would and this was totally anonymous, but just sort of open it up to discussion. And um one year a kid put in a question that said, What does it mean to be made in the image of God? And what does it mean if I don't believe I'm made in the image of God? And that question just broke my heart because I knew that someone had obviously told this young person they were not made in the image of God. It just stopped me and made me think really bigger about what it means to be made in the image of God and how we probably need to talk about that more as a fundamental kind of core belief of the Bible. And we talked a little bit about that last week in inclusivity, but just broke my heart that this this person had obviously been told, you're not made in the image of God. When you think about the tension of living with mystery and the questions of God's will, I think there's so much out there in terms of why things happen where people it is hard for us to live with mystery sometime, why certain things happen or certain things don't happen for people. And I mean the truth is we don't we don't really know. I mean, I believe that that God is on our side and God weeps with us and God rejoices with us, but I think some of the most difficult questions that really lead people to crave certainty is they they want to know why. Why? And I think that's the most difficult question to answer. And I think it's also the question that people typically want the most certainty around.
SPEAKER_01And so how do we push against that certainty? Our world feels so chaotic, our lives feel chaotic. We want some structure, we want some understanding, we want some guardrails or feel like there's guardrails. And so, why is the perfect question that we often ask? And so, how do we as a church continue to help people live in that why and still remain curious?
SPEAKER_00I would give them permission. I mean, I think I think just giving permission as much as we can to sit in the unknown is maybe one of the best gifts that we can give folks. You know, I think and we do that, we do that in our Bible studies, we do that from the pulpit. But I think I think just telling people that it's okay not to know. And that's uh, you know, that that kind of permission giving to be wrestling with with the mystery, and that it will always be a mystery. I we won't know.
SPEAKER_01And I think that's the biggest shift for me from seminary to ministry is seminary wanted you to articulate your faith down to the dotted I and the cross T. And most of my ministry since seminary has been more mystery. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I tend to default to uh story William Sloane Coffin tells he was a longtime minister at the Riverside Church in New York City.
SPEAKER_00Have you? He used to preach at North Christian Church.
SPEAKER_02Very cool. Very cool. I've read many of his books, not on my honeymoon. Smart. Thank you. Uh he uh his son Alex was was killed in a car accident when Alex was twenty four, and so at the funeral Um, you know, people were bringing food and and and you know, I mean what we do is church and a funeral and you know, you don't know what to say to people, and so someone, you know, several people had come up to him and said, Well, you know, God must have needed another angel in heaven and um everything happens for a reason and all that, and finally uh someone came up and and said something along those lines and he he just kind of snapped in the moment and said, God's will is always life. God's will is always life. And so I've always resonated with that idea that even in the worst of circumstances, God's will is always for life, and so when things happen that we can't explain, if we can lean on that that truth, that can make a real difference.
SPEAKER_01So, in preparation for this past week, I came across a book uh by Monica Guzman uh that helped me kind of lean into this curiosity. The title of her book was uh I never thought of it that way. And she said that may be the most important question uh that we could ever ask of someone else because it's a it's an invitation. You're giving someone the space and time to begin to tell their perspective, their story. And in our current climate, we seem to not only in church, but in our everyday interactions, we feel so siloed in this is what I believe, this is what you believe, I'm right, you're wrong, whatever that may be. And though we may lean into curiosity in certain aspects, we don't in others. And so how do we help folks embrace that in in every part of their life, not just in their faith journey, but also in their interactions with Jim and Susan out on the street? How how do we help them remain curious and not cut off from or not feel so cut off from one another?
SPEAKER_00I always say that after I've attended a funeral or done a funeral that I wish I had known that. I wish I had known what I learned at somebody's funeral about them earlier so I could have talked to them about that. Because there is always something that it just it feels like missed opportunity when I hear something and go, I mean, it rose to the it rose to the surface in either an obituary or a funeral, but I never knew that. And it's like that's so cool. To your to your question, I don't know how we get there. I mean, other than encouraging conversation.
SPEAKER_02I think relationships play a big role in curiosity and we've lost the capacity. Everything feels so urgent, and so we don't feel like I don't know if we don't have the energy to do so, or we just feel like we don't have the time to do so. But we are not very good these days getting to know one another and really learning someone's story and hearing about their experiences or even asking them, well, why do you why do you feel that way or why do you see it that way? And those are really cultivated as relationships deepen, right? I mean, if you're getting to know a person, you're probably not going to ask them a question the first time you meet them that you might ask them after you've been in a Bible study with them for four or five weeks or something of that nature, or small group, been on a mission trip with them, whatever um it may be. And so I think as a church, the more opportunity we have to create spaces where people get to develop relationships with one another and hear one another's stories, there's an element of consistency to that, right?
SPEAKER_01You have to keep showing up, right? Being present, right, and having that shared experience, I think is also an extremely important part of whether it's a Bible study or a a mission or or service learning trip. Like I've found that when we take folks to Guatemala or we've gone to eastern Kentucky or wherever it is that we've gone to go serve and to to learn and to grow, people come back. And I love watching on Facebook when those groups get together now outside of just that trip. And what I love even better is that I know a little bit more of their story than they may know of each other right now because of how long I've known them in different capacities in which I've known them. And I know that they may not agree on everything. And yet that does not stop them from getting together and serving and being in communion with one another. And to me, that is that is beautiful. I and I love it because it reminds us that we're more than just a single story, we're more than just one particular opinion or one perspective, that there's more to it.
SPEAKER_02It's the come and see moment because Jesus invites us into relationship, and so not only are you becoming deeper in relationship with Jesus through this, but you are becoming deeper in relationship with another person.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And their story is more than just one thing. And and you only know that by walking with someone, spending time with someone. And so being able to create space for that to take place, I think is an important part of of what the church should be doing week in and week out.
SPEAKER_00That that come and see, I thought about that as Kyle was preaching. And and there is there is invitation there, but there's also welcome. There's both both both aspects of that, and I think they're different. And so come and see I mean, if we're gonna be followers of Jesus and and that that's a that invitation and welcome. What what do you see the difference between invitation and welcome? Well, you can you can invite someone to a party, but to welcome them to a party is different. To welcome them is making them feel valued at home, part of the gathering. And you know, they're they're two very different things, but both both are there. I mean, you need the invitation to get there, but the sense of welcome is is important. And I think that's that's Jesus embodied that in three words. And it was to a mundane question about where are you staying, come and see.
SPEAKER_01I found that the curiosity of the individuals in our story on Sunday, they're they kind of wanted a straightforward answer, but their willingness, even after the come and see, is their response of they took a leap of faith. They took the first step and said, Okay, I don't know where this is going. I don't know what's going to happen. I know very little about you other than what you know John the Baptist just said. I'm curious and I'm I'm ready to to go.
SPEAKER_02And I I found that people, and there are moments in life, certainly we all have them, where we really need answers and we want a spirit of certainty. Uh, we want to know now. And so we're willing to take an easy answer or something that might seem obvious because it it sort of um it feeds us in the moment. But then after a while, it becomes like empty calories. It's kind of like building your house on the sand, which Jesus talks about also, is it goes away. We find that easy answer, that certain quick answer doesn't work anymore. And then we go back seeking something deeper and becoming curious. And so I think for many people right now, and and really, you know, and I think especially moving forward too, there's gonna be times where those answers that felt good in the moment and felt right are gonna expire on us and we're gonna be seeking something that's deeper and seeking something that's more true. And I think providing space where we can do that as well.
SPEAKER_01So, you know, we've talked about today creating space for people to ask questions, to be curious, to lean into the unknown. And so the question I have for you today is what what question are you still wrestling with, or what question do you have as a way of giving people permission to ask their own question?
SPEAKER_00I have uh I think the same question that lots of people have, and it may be a result of aging that what happens next? What happens uh what's what's the afterlife look like? Um, I I heard Philip Gully talk right before he released his book, If Grace is true, and his working title for that book, if I remember it correctly, is Hell is Killing Us. And so I think of all the all the sort of theological questions I get, and and it may be, again, part of the aging process, but you know, what's next? What what does what does the afterlife look like? And we don't know. We don't know that. And and that's a part that's that mystery that will go unknown until we get there, right? Yeah. Um so that I I wrestle with that.
SPEAKER_02I think for me it it's a little bit of a why question in a in a in a world that has so many resources and and so so many good things in it. Why do so many people suffer? And why is life just so difficult for so many people? Just realizing we live in a little bit of a bubble here, that's not to minimize any any struggles people have in our immediate community, but just as I look around the world and as things seem to be just breaking down in our kind of threads of humanity, just why in a world of such abundant resources, why why do so many people struggle just to exist?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think to build upon that one, mine's the how. How do we stop what I feel like is a spiral of never-ending division? How do we how do we stop? Has it always been a part of who we are as this nation we call America? Am I just more aware of it because I'm older? Has social media played a part in it? What part has it played? How do we be more mindful, kind, and caring toward one another?
SPEAKER_02My prayer has been God, we could use a little help if you've been waiting to help. Now we've got to be. What you're waiting on.
SPEAKER_01Hey Ryan, it has been so good to have you on the podcast today. Thanks for being with us. Thanks for making time. Thanks for sharing story. Until next time. See you all. This has been another episode of Sacred Sit Downs. We hope you will join us next time as we explore the power of story. We can be found on all major platforms, so be sure to subscribe. As always, thanks for listening. Until next time, this is Sacred Sit Downs.