Building a Legacy with David Shaw

What does it take to build a business that lasts nearly 50 years?

In our very first episode of The Last Makers, David Shaw shares the honest story behind one of New Zealand's longest-standing furniture manufacturers. From taking risks before he felt ready to navigating economic uncertainty, changing design trends, and an ever-evolving industry, David reflects on the decisions that shaped both the business and the person he became.

This conversation is about feeling the fear and doing it anyway. It's about resilience, backing yourself when the path isn't clear, and understanding that longevity isn't built on never failing—it's built on continuing to show up.

Whether you're building a business, leading a team, or simply navigating your own next chapter, David's wisdom is a reminder that courage isn't the absence of fear; it's choosing to move forward despite it.

This is where The Last Makers begins.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Well as I say you you you kind of feel the fear and then you just go and do it anyway. I would just continually make the pieces and then load the van up and take it round. Eventually I I bought a truck and then used to travel South Island. Say when the Chinese imports came into the market, majority of the retailers tend to go that way. So we tended to pivot more to selective retailers, designers, and architects. You see the magazines, a lot of our products are being used, and yeah, you've you become incredibly proud of that.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Welcome to The Last Makers. Today we have got the OG, the original, uh the founder of David Shaw Furniture. So um I'd love to welcome you into the space today.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Thanks, Amy.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

What made you decide to start a furniture company?

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Well, I started my uh apprenticeship as an upholsterer, and um and I kind of just thought, oh, I can do this. And that made me it gave me the inspiration to start.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Yeah. Did you always feel kind of drawn into creating furniture?

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Well, it it sort of it grows on you, but uh yeah, I I love uh different shapes and that and just and creating things.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

One of my favourite stories is about the one where you actually started the company and did uh the van trip with grandad around the South Island. So do you want to tell me I know he's past now, but I guess um he was probably quite a big part of that uh startup when you were just a young man, I guess, with a really big dream?

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Yeah, when I decided to go into business, I like probably a lot of small companies, we st I started in the garage. Yes. And and sort of built my first few pieces in there. And I haven't really I hadn't really travelled to the South Island at that stage. And um so my dad had done a lot of travelling around the South, so I did a trip with him and it was really good. Yeah. Gave me sort of more confidence to go out there and do it.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

So you created pieces from your garage and then you took them in a van around the South Island. Is that kind of where it started in terms of going to retailers?

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Yes, that's right. Uh so yeah, cre created the pieces and then basically drove to every retailer um who would hopefully buy one of my pieces.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Were they open? Like I mean, n nowadays I don't think I could rock up with a chair and be like, excuse me, you know, I we'd love to sell you this piece. Were they open at the time?

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Um reasonably open. Um only because it w looked a wee bit different than what was um on the market. But generally I don't believe the competition's a hell of a lot different.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Yes, yeah. Well, I feel like uh creating a company for 43 years, you would have had to have your eye on the pulse of kind of what the market was wanting. Did you feel like you knew it at that time, or it was just your own creativity that you're like, I wanted to create something different?

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Well, because you when you're starting a company, you you're you're living it, breathing it all the time. So what tends to happen is um you're constantly reinventing yourself.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Do you think that's what made you span over four decades essentially? Because I know now there's not a huge amount of manufacturers left. I mean there's probably a handful, but in the earlier years, wasn't there hundreds? You know, there was a lot of people manufacturing?

SPEAKER_02 3:19

Aaron Ross Powell, I think there was probably about eighty to ninety factories in Christchurch.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Wow. And now, I mean what you've probably got four?

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Four to five factories left. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Yeah. When you first imagined, you know, I guess this uh younger man who had this dream of creating something, did you think it would turn into what it is today? I mean, obviously you've got showrooms throughout New Zealand and you have managed to span through many different uh economic cycles around um around most businesses where it would go under. Did you think at that version of you it would become what it is today?

SPEAKER_02 3:54

Aaron Ross Powell You don't really think like that. All you know is that you you kind of um yes, you do have that dream that you want to become a large manufacturer, but it's really it it's just kind of like a stepping stone that you just keep walking.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

What would you feel like those ear early years in business taught you? You know, because I guess it's it's a big thing for a a a younger man to go out and just create it. What did that teach you?

SPEAKER_02 4:20

It's really just believing in yourself and uh and and pushing the boundaries all the time to creating new things which become so exciting. Um so I mean there is also you have to be uh understand the financial side of it. Yes. But it more so about just believing yourself and and uh just just knocking all boundaries out.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Yeah, give it a go, right? I think a lot of people sit in that space where they want to do something, but they actually maybe don't have the confidence to push it through. You obviously were like, no, I'm gonna go for it and win all in.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Yeah, just it's there again, just believing in yourself that you can achieve it.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

And so through market shifts, how have you kept ahead of the time? Because again, four decades there must have been many moments where you've had to stand out and pivot your business.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Well, I think you you you've because you were so involved in the company, um you naturally pivot to suit whatever the market is. Um there was stages where uh when I said earlier there was probably about 90 different companies in New Zealand. Um and then I think when when the Chinese imports came into the market, that probably reduced it to maybe ten different companies still surviving. So it we found a niche that would actually work for us and just kept building on that.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

And did you find d could you see that niche easily, you know, because I guess the panic when the Chinese imports came must have been massive because everyone at that point, every single retailer, was, correct me if I'm wrong, using New Zealand manufacturing because that was the only option. So was there a real fear base through there where you saw where the gap was, or you just had to kind of keep floundering into who found it?

SPEAKER_02 6:04

Well as I'm saying you you you kind of feel the fear and then you just go and do it anyway.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What would you say has been the biggest challenge in keeping New Zealand manufacturing business competitive?

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Well, I think today, you know, there's been different stages where you know w after w say when the Chinese imports came into the market, majority of the retailers tend to go that way. So we tended to pivot more to selective retailers, designers, and architects.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

And I think that's where there's so much loyalty in our community. And I know, you know, I I came on board what five years ago, and I think the thing that everyone had spoken about for you is that you would always fix anything that went wrong, anything that you could do in terms of after sale. I don't think that is a support that you get very often, but I know that any single David Shaw piece that has ever been made is is is got so much longevity and aftercare around it. Um but also I think you've always supported that industry back, right? Like it's always you've always looked after them and take care of that in the term in the way that you kept the business the same for that whole entire time. So uh do you feel really thankful to that industry, you know, being able to go into it and kind of get into that industry and be accepted into it? Because would there have been challenges at the time?

SPEAKER_02 7:27

Uh you t talk about the very early stages of the yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

When you had to kind of pivot the business into design and architecture.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

When there was uh probably ninety-odd manufacturers, there used to be an association, so that was quite supportive to the whole group. Right. And yeah, certainly learnt a lot through that. Um and there was a obviously I was probably one of the younger ones in the group, but yeah, I certainly got a lot of experience from some of this um more senior ones.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Yeah, yeah. I think uh even nowadays, you know, I think people think that manufacturers are all kind of against each other, but it's interesting every event that we ever do, the manufacturers are always there together, those three um generational families. I think, you know, there's not a lot of competition because we also don't want anything to go out of our industry, you know. We don't want to see any fabric houses go or any other manufacturers because we kind of need it in numbers.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

Oh, yeah, certainly yeah, supporting each other. There's no doubt about that. I mean everyone's got their own business that they have to run. Yes. But yes, as a collective group, yeah, we do support each other.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Did you ever consider moving into retail out of fear at that time? There's never been an option where you've thought higher margin, go into retail, something completely different.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Yeah, I I think I've I've seen over over the years I've been in business, I've seen some do it, and uh to me, it's sometimes it's uh it's a mistake when they can't uh their product's not good enough to sell to the market, so they think that they'll do it themselves and go retail. I've always believed that um, you know, stay true to what you are and um and w all all our energies go into more design and um uh you know, just making the product better. So you can't be something to everybody.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Yeah, I love that. And I do feel like with the David Shaw brand, having being able to modify it, choose your fabrics, bring it into your home, you know, we're thinking about the halo, we're thinking about how the windows, uh, ozone layer, you know, there's things that we can create in the New Zealand market for the New Zealand people that can't be bought elsewhere. What would be the hardest lesson that you've learned in business if you had to choose one over all these decades that you've been in business? What would be the hardest lesson, do you think?

SPEAKER_02 9:39

The hardest lesson. Um Well, I don't know whether there is a real hard one. I think it's just kind of believing and where you're going and just keep going.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Yeah. Was there ever a moment uh during your career or during the business that you were like, oh my gosh, I'm not sure if this is gonna survive? And you had to have that blind faith to keep going?

SPEAKER_02 9:59

I I think what I've always done is try to um you know, there's good days and bad days in business, uh or years in business. Um so when things are quite good we always make sure we put enough away for the rainy day. And the rainy day always does come. But but it's also I think that um if you do things right, you don't generally have a real downturn anyway, even in in a down area.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Yeah. And with the um if if you're going into a quiet market, what would be your uh advice to people?

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Probably don't panic. Yes. And and really just it's almost like stepping back and and working out right, where where are we gonna go now? And uh and it and it works every time.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Yeah. From the outside, we can all talk about this incredible company that spend all this time and what you've achieved. And you know, even for us, we go into homes now over the last five years and this product there that has been there for 35 years still looking impeccable, or you know, the third generation coming through to buy whatever they want to buy because their grandparents and their parents have had it as well. So we can see this legacy. Uh and I I think sometimes you might miss that because you're in it so much. But what would be the uh the the achievement that you're most proud of through this business?

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Well, I think you you probably just answer that. It it's almost like going into homes or you see the magazines, a lot of our products uh are being used, and yeah, you've you become incredibly proud of that.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Yeah. And I think it is massive to see obviously with us now we do different things, but you have always been a pioneer, and everyone's always said before we came into the business as well, saying how you were always just ahead of the game. So in terms of advertising, you know, you would be on um, you know, you would do it always really differently. So did you just sort of see opportunities or you just kind of just were blindly going for it and starting to create it? Because you've obviously always been advanced in your design, how you market, how you pivot in the market.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

So is that just sort of like raw instinct for you, or is it Yeah, it's yeah, it's just a natural passion that you have and um and and you kind of know how you want to portray things into the market, how you want to portray the furniture, uh it just becomes a a natural weight. But also listening to what people are asking for too.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Yeah. What do you think is your greater strength as a business owner?

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Greater strength. Well, I tend to um run uh very much like a team. So I think it's um we probably uh from sort of day one in the later state, involving everybody in the decision making of whether it be the products, whether the growth of the business. Yeah, and then I think it becomes you become a stronger company by doing that.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Yeah. Yeah, collaboration, right? Everyone's got a different lens that they're looking at from a different part of the business. So yeah, I agree. I think it's so strong.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Collaborating with, you know, um different magazines, uh different fabric houses, but actually working together to create a better product.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

And I think then the industry obviously is the one that wins from it, right? When you're looking through multiple different companies and different creatives and different sales managers, you know, you're gonna get a much better outcome for the end user.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Well, I think it does because you end up by um everybody's kind of pushing the bar up and uh and you all become better, better at the quality, better at the design and better with technology. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Yeah. Uh we actually hadn't talked about that, but do you fear or do you think there's anything that will impact our industry from the rise of technology? Obviously AI has become a really big part of it. Do you think it will strengthen or weaken uh the manufacturing industry?

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Yes, some manufacturing it will. But I I think if people stay on top of it and you know, in good design, um I think multiple units um will be made offshore. But more boutique products will always be made here.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Yeah, I almost feel like from our industry it's strengthened what we do because you uh a machine or a human being can't replicate the tactile experience of manufacturing, of creating um, you know, fabrics and modifying things in-house in New Zealand with clean materials, clean glue, you know, all of those sorts of things. Everything's almost rushing so much and so quickly now. I almost feel like manufacturing's almost in its blooming stage, like it's gone almost all the way back again. Like people are starting to turn. So it's been really interesting to watch that, I feel like, for manufacturing.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

Yeah, I think so. And I think people appreciate something different. Yes. Not everyone wants to have the same piece of furniture.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

And we've seen, I guess that's always our exciting, we've always said that the factory is the heart of our business because we get to see everyone else's creativity, you know, like we can create it for our campaigns and things like that, but actually the real um excitement comes through all of the designers bringing through different fabrics and how they finish things is things that even we wouldn't see sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

And yeah, you naturally see all these things and it kind of um it builds um for tomorrow's products.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Aaron Ross Powell What financial habits have helped you build build long-term stability in a business? Because I think that's such an important one for anyone that's listening in our industry but also outside of our industry, of being able to build a successful business.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

Well, I think I think you've got to have um several hats. Um you've got to have um creative, you've also got to be understand the financial um side of the business too. So they go hand in hand. One doesn't work without the other. Yeah. So keep it. You can get resources that to help you with those things, but yeah, ultimately you need to know that.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Yeah. Yeah. As a business owner you're saying, yeah. So you kind of got to be over everything, understand what yeah. All all parts are happening at all time.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

I think so today, but particularly now, the market changes so fast. So you you have to you have to be able to pivot very fast today.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Yeah, I agree. I guess if you're outside of it and things are moving too quickly, it's almost hard to then kind of re-divert it back into where it needs to go.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Well it's kind of like m imagine if you went on holiday for five years and then you came back. Oh, it would be quite scary.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Well, even now, if you think five years ago from now, with the rise of technology, AI, uh, freight, uh, you know, restrictions around the world, it it's a whole different landscape of running a business. Yes. If you could change one thing about the furniture or design industry, would it be? Would there be anything that you would change about the industry?

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Uh not really. Um I think it's I think um yeah, different companies work working well better to Yeah, different companies working better together, I think that's probably more collaboration and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Yeah. And I think again we spoke or we have spoken about um, you know, this series or this podcast starting to educate because I think there's such a beautiful industry out there, but a lot of the end users aren't aware of it. So I think the exciting thing now is being able to educate the everyday person what the design industry looks like and what it can give, because I think it has that view sometimes that, oh, I can't afford an interior designer, or that's not me, or that's for my mother's era, or whatever. So it's such an interesting thing, I think, to be able to um shed some light on manufacturing, and I think we've done that or we will continue to do that through the podcast, because not everyone knows. You know, we're privy to this incredible creative industry that can create anything, and that is keeping New Zealand alive and um building more jobs and using more New Zealand materials and things like that. But actually, quite a large percentage of New Zealand wouldn't be accessing that because they'd just be using retail.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

Yeah, but I think I think uh certainly in the last few years, I I think there's a real um comeback to New Zealand made again. And I think you're right, you know, people to appreciate what's in the different furniture so they can see value in that. I think that's very important.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Yeah. Do you think um that New Zealand made will continue to get stronger?

SPEAKER_02 18:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Yeah. Over the next sort of say ten years time?

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Yeah, I believe so. Providing you you uh New Zealand companies keep up with the design.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

As in keeping the trends and the the that global reach of of feeling like it could be at Silone, but is actually made here in New Zealand.

SPEAKER_02 18:39

And I think also it's a time thing, whereas I think if you're buying something offshore now, it probably takes you eight to nine months for a delivery where you know the local person can pivot more and deliver something in six weeks.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Yeah. And a much cleaner, higher product. What excites you most about the future of New Zealand di design and manufacturing? Is there anything that you're looking and you're like, oh my gosh, that makes me so excited?

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Well, I think in the next few years, yeah, um AI, i everything yeah, everything is gonna keep changing. So it's j really just keeping walking the right way so that we you know, the industry survives well. Particularly in the upholstery side, there's a lot of handwork, you know, so that um whereas in certain areas the machines with AI will help. But certainly in the upholstery side it's still, you know, individually cut. It's individually pol upholstered. Um so that there's a lot more skill there.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Would you see machinery ever coming into the David Shaw factory? You know, replacing not replacing, but adding value in different areas or um streamlining things. Would you see that um technology in the factory, do you think, in the next ten years?

SPEAKER_02 19:57

AI for um for planning, etc. But but probably not because you because you're still in individually cutting pieces and when to get the same quality um that that's the way it has to be done.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Mm-hmm. And I guess all the range of fabrics and finishes and things like that, you can't really teach anyone else to do that. I think if we look at our sewers and our cutters, for example, every it's like art, you know, every single fabric needs different patterns, different width, that's got to go a little bit longer. And I think we pride ourselves as a company on saying yes. We're the yes people. We will literally try every single time to create whatever is in the designer's head, even if we can't do it, we've said yes. And then we're figuring out how to do it right. I don't think there's many New Zealand manufacturers that care that much about the end product that's going into a uh into a home. So um, yeah, I probably agree. Like there's different ways we can add technology, but definitely it's that handcrafted finished. And I know um, you know, collectively the QC process is massive at David Shaw. There's so much that gets rejected off the line and sent back again because a stitch is wonky or or something like that. I guess you you lose that as it gets bigger, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:09

You do, but but I think it's uh empowering the people so they understand the standards that you uh expect. Um and as long as you do that, they're fine. Yes, certain things need to go back and be because of the the type of fabrics we use today, some of them may have more stretch than others, but generally um if you empower the people so they understand the quality, you win every time.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Yeah. Well I think you've done that over the four decades, that's for sure. Anything uh anybody I've ever spoken to, it always goes down to comfort and quality in the end and ha and how long it lasts, which which is beautiful. What advice would you give to someone starting their entrepreneurial journey today?

SPEAKER_02 21:51

I think you've gone some beautiful nuggets today, but if you had yeah, some advice probably um d just believe in yourself and just go and do it. Yeah. Because I think today I think people um study too much about what they're going to do and it scares them. So I my I would just say if you really believe in yourself and you believe in the product that you're going to make, just go and do it.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Do you think there's a way um you know I think a a fair in manufacturing has always been recruiting the younger staff? Would you agree with that? Like make making sure that we're continuing to bring in woodworkers and upholsterers and things like that, because it is a bit of a dying trade.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

Like I think we need to have more education there. Because I think with AI coming through, uh the furniture trade is a safe trade.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Yeah. Do you think people will come back to it? Do you think or how do you think we can educate? Or is it just creating more products so that people are.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

I think it's um it's it's really yeah, it it is really setting some courses up so that people can understand what they can do. And then there's a lot of creative people out there that would love to do it.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Yeah. And it is such a beautiful thing. Like I think sometimes when I see our staff finishing a custom job or a cabinet or something, you step back. It really is a piece of art. It's something really exciting. Um and there's so much fulfillment and joy that comes out of it. But I guess then you kind of are restricted in some ways as well, because you're up against some other really big trades.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

But it's i it's a it's a piece that someone may keep for 20, 25 years. Um I think that uh if you make a good quality product, people are proud of it.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Yeah. If you could sit down with your 19-year-old self on the first day of business, what would you tell them?

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Probably like that question before, it was um just believe in what you're doing and just go and do it.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Yeah, yeah. Were you always, like when you were younger, confident in everything that you did, or you were just like, I'm just gonna go for this one?

SPEAKER_02 24:11

I was probably confident, but you you tend to build that up as as as you go along. But yeah, I wanted to be in business.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Did you enjoy the making of it? Because obviously you did it from your garage. And uh the first was an Osiman, is that correct? And then a chair?

SPEAKER_02 24:26

I think I made a chair for the first one. It was a chair.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

And is that where you travelled around the South Island with that chair? Is that the first chair?

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Yeah and uh one settee.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

Yeah. And that's all you had. Yeah. So did you feel nervous when you were going into these spaces? Were you just like how how did you take the furniture in? Did you like pull it up to the door and then go in, or you said I've got something outside?

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Well, I had this I think it was called a uh a J4 van, I think it was called here. Anyway, I would just drive up and hopefully I'd find a park outside and and then go in and uh introduce myself and and and generally m most were quite happy to come out and have a look anyway. So I'd open the doors up and and lift the pieces out.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

How many orders did you get on that first South Island trip? How many people picked it up?

SPEAKER_02 25:11

Um it was pr pretty lean, but I I always remember one of my um uh T Cox and Son, which was in Victoria Street. I always remember uh I was the f probably one of the first sales I got. I drove up outside, got a park outside, and he came and looked at it and um maybe he felt sorry for me that he bought it.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Did he offer like the actual piece or did you make him one?

SPEAKER_02 25:37

No, he he actually ordered that, but I thought I'd better not sell that. So I took it took it back home and um I went back a week later with it.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Stop it, didn't it take a week? Did you make it back in your garage? Same fabric?

SPEAKER_02 25:50

No, it was the same piece.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Oh, it was oh I see what you mean, yeah. Oh well he's probably he's probably just found out now. Um I love that. And so and then from that, did you just start taking orders manually from it? So as they sold, you were just making it in your garage until it sort of got bigger and bigger.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

I would just continually make the pieces and then load load the van up and take it round. Eventually I I bought a truck and then used to travel to South Island.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

And did you expand the range from there or was it still the two pieces? Yes, yes. Did you expand it quite quickly?

SPEAKER_02 26:20

Yes, I did.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Yeah. And was that by listening to what people were wanting? Did you ask you?

SPEAKER_02 26:24

So learn learned a lot. Learnt a lot on the way.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Yeah. So just asking lots of questions and then creating the product that they need. Yes. Oh, smart. Knowing everything you know now, would you do it all again? Definitely. Yeah, yeah. And what message would you like to leave for the David Shaw community, customers, staff, and supporters who have been part of this journey for forty forty-three years?

SPEAKER_02 26:45

Probably uh thank uh thank you to all the people that were involved in the company and the customers and our suppliers who have really made it work for us. Without that, it would have you would you it's very hard to create.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

And I think uh as a lens looking inside as well, the supply relationships have stayed the same essentially. You know, we obviously have got Bill Willis coming up on the podcast as well, and that that's a long-standing relationship. A lot of your steel workers, anyone externally outside of your business, you've kept very long uh sturdy relationships with everyone.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Well when you talk about Bill Willis, um I used to deal with John, his father. Yes. And we had a great relationship for years um with Mackenzie Willis.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

How w when did you go into the Mackenzie Willis group?

SPEAKER_02 27:36

I would have said probably probably thirty years ago.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Oh yeah. So you were a bit more than a chair and an ottoman in a van at that stage. You're a little bit more established. A couple more couches. Yeah, a couple more couches. If this conversation was preserved for the next generation of New Zealand business owners, what is the one piece of wisdom you'd want them to remember?

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Well, I think it goes back to just believing what's the same. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

I think it's strong.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Yeah, because I I I don't think there's a is a true answer. Like if you if you truly believe this is what you want to do and this is what where you want to go, just go and do it.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Yeah. I think that's uh uh it's amazing. And I think you've also put it down to uh probably your children under you as well, because we're all quite go-getters out there. We're like just blind faith that it's gonna work out. So yeah, so it does, and it and it shows you have. So anyway, thank you so much for your time today. I know that this company is something that you have created from the ground up over a very long span of time. Um, invested a huge amount back into your staff, into the community, uh, into the New Zealand um economy and businesses and things like that. So I think it's been amazing to have you, and we're very s very, very happy to have you as the first guest on this podcast. And yeah, we wish you all the best.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

We wish you all the best. You can probably cut that.