Creative Mindset Podcast
I interview the most creative people in the City I'm in for the purpose of finding out if there are any common denominators in their creative process, in the hope to increase creative productivity by forming new habits and patterns.
Creative Mindset Podcast
TCM #005 - Daunt
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Today’s guest is one of the driving creative forces behind a large amount of music coming out of Perth right now. He’s been a consistent part of the process behind a lot of the sounds and artists shaping the local scene. He’s worked with over 800 artists in the last 5 years, Daunt.
Book a session at Daunt's Studio: https://ciarandaunt.wixsite.com/websi...
Daunt's Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/5M4z4...
Daunt's IG: dauntonthebeat - https://www.instagram.com/dauntontheb...
00:20 Intro
00:24 What made you realise you wanted to do music full time?
05:11 How long did it take until you could sustain yourself with a music career?
09:38 Have you always had an inherit skill for music?
12:39 How do you know when a song is finished?
14:19 What is the bedrock of your songs?
15:26 How much of your music is emotion over technical skill?
16:20 How do you transition between the different stages of music production?
16:39 Where do you think ideas come from?
19:04 How do you get into the flow state?
20:45 When you were working at your home studio, was the flow state as accessible?
24:40 When you're not in the studio, are you still constantly hearing music?
25:27 What makes a great collaboration?
26:42 How do you work with an artist who has a bad attitude?
27:36 How do you inspire new creative ideas
27:59 How have you dealt with setbacks in your career?
30:37 How do you think the design of the studio has effected your music?
37:59 What do you think makes a song break through the rest?
40:15 Is there anything musically you can do to guarantee a hit song?
41:12 Have you noticed a change in music production throughout your career?
42:26 Is there any advice you heard at the beginning of your career that stuck with you?
47:23 What's your creative ritual to get you into the creative mindset?
49:44 What advice would you give to someone who wants to produce music full time?
That sense of freedom almost maybe gives you a sense of comfort to where you can just slip into that world.
SPEAKER_01There's no resistance or friction, maybe. Maybe that is it. I've never really thought about this. Like this is really psychologists.
SPEAKER_03Creative mindset by Robin Mark.
SPEAKER_02Oh, welcome to another episode of the Creative Mindset podcast. Today, my guest is one of the driving creative forces behind a large amount of music coming out of Perth right now. He's been a consistent part of the process behind lots of sounds and artists shaping the local scene. And he's worked with over 800 artists in the last five years. Daunt, thank you for coming.
SPEAKER_01Wow, thanks for having me. That's quite an intro. That really uh really gassing me up here.
SPEAKER_02Thank you as well for letting us do this in the Hive studio where you've been producing music for uh a couple years now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I've had I've had this studio um for about three years now. Okay. Yeah, gonna be I've extended my lease as well. So we're gonna be here for another.
SPEAKER_00We made it pop some shake.
SPEAKER_01So I'll be here for another five years. So gonna be here. Gonna be here for a while. So yeah, I'm not not going anywhere.
SPEAKER_02It is such a special vibe in here. Like just I I've got a few questions as well about the lighting and some other atmosphere stuff you've got going on, but honestly, don't just the energy you have walking in here. I don't know what it is, but you've done something. Maybe it's just the amount of work you've done in here, but there's something about this space.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean it's it's a lot of people do say this. I remember when I told people I was gonna be getting a commercial studio. I was recording just in my home studio, they said they really liked the home studio setup. And they didn't they didn't want me to kind of go into this kind of sterile, like you know. So I really wanted to keep the cozy, low-lit, neon vibe. Because I mean, music can be quite um like nerve-wracking. You really gotta uh make yourself vulnerable. So it's nice to have a room where you feel quite like cozy and comfortable.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So that was one of the main focuses of making the space.
SPEAKER_02That makes so much sense.
SPEAKER_01So and also having a spot that looks cool, visually aesthetic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, when people um, you know, put on their stories, that's all kind of advertising for me or getting the studio out there. So having a space that um looks nice, feels good to be in.
SPEAKER_02That's so super important. That's what we played into the marketing and stuff. Yeah, yeah. I've got a few questions about this space. Okay, I think the first one I'm gonna start with is mostly just what made you realise you wanted to do music than more than just a hobby? What made you realise you wanted to do this as a career path?
SPEAKER_01When I was a kid, when I was about 12, that's probably when I was, I want to be Skrillex. I want to be uh, you know, making being a music producer. Yeah. And I think I heard bangarang, and I was like, this is the coolest thing I've ever heard in my life. My family's very musical. My older brother's a professional drummer. My other older brother's a band manager. My mum sings, plays clarinet, my dad plays guitar. So this was very musical family. From birth, I've been surrounded by it. And my older brother was already, I'm gonna be a professional drummer, I'm doing music as a career. He's four years older, so he was 16 and I was 12. So it was kind of like normalized in my family to pursue a career in music. When I was 17 and I was doing like my A-tar and kind of get, I was having that get real, you know, you're not gonna have a career in music, right? Yeah, yeah. And then I went to uni and what uni you go to? I went to UWA. Oh, okay. And I did nothing to do with music. You I did neuroscience and psychology, no way. Did my honours degree, and when I graduated, it's well, you need another four years to pursue you need to do your PhD and masters to like pursue a career in that. Uh-huh. And it was um a big kind of epiphany moment for me. I was just thinking to myself, I just don't think I can do this for another four years. And I always knew I wanted to do music, but I was kind of suppressing it, didn't know how I was gonna do it, and then COVID hit, and I just was sitting around, you know, doing nothing all day, just thinking to myself. Yeah. And I kind of just, you know, thought, man, I'll just try. I'll just put an ad up. Because I've been, yeah, load up, load up FL. I've been making music for 10 years at this point. I'd already been doing shows and knew a lot of people in the music scene.
SPEAKER_02It was more of just this is fun. This is just doing my free time for fun.
SPEAKER_01I didn't think I would ever be able to do it as a career for sure. But then I just thought, man, I'll just give it a shot. And if it doesn't work out um by the time I'm 30, that was like the deadline I gave myself. If I don't make it by 30, I'll re-evaluate then and I'll just go back to uni. That was kind of the agreement I gave myself. So yeah, and once I started, I mean, my fiance really motivated me as well. She said, um, you know, just put the ad up and just see what happens. Um, you got nothing to lose, kind of thing. And yeah, once I did that, I got a few bites on um well, gum tree and that. And some people came to my house, just did a little home studio. And some of those people I still record to this day. That's what's after like five years. And once I started doing that, um, and seeing, oh, I actually can run a studio and you know, can actually make money making music.
SPEAKER_02How long did it take for you to get to that point where you could be like, okay, this can be a career? Like if you started 2020 and you're like, all right, I'm gonna do this, how long did it take until you were like, okay, I'm definitely not going back to uni?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I think I was working at a bar at this time. That's how I was fun through uni, I was working at a bar, and when I was doing my home studio, I was working at a bar, probably doing four or five days a week, so 30-ish plus hours. So I was pretty much full-time just bartending. And then I would get a couple of clients like doing music a week, and then I could drop a shift because I had, you know, I was getting a couple extra hundred bucks, and then I would get some more people, and then over the course of probably two or three years, I went from four to five shifts a week to one to two shifts a week. Once I quit the bar and I was here and I had a commercial studio, I wasn't doing home studio anymore. You know, that was obviously where I was really locked in. Like it was a three-year lease that I signed up for. There's no going back. You know, I'm paying the bills on this place for another three years if I'm going to uni like I can't afford that. So, but at that point, I was already full-time making music.
SPEAKER_02That's such a smart way of doing it though, bro. The whole I'm gonna, instead of just being like, I'm gonna quit my job and do music full-time, you were like, okay, let me actually just mathematically slowly move into this new life of okay, I can just full-time make music instead of because I feel like a lot of people may have that of, I'm gonna quit my job, I'm gonna do this, and then there's the whole starving artist and stuff like that. But you were like, No, yeah, I'm gonna still like live while I'm transitioning into this new phase.
SPEAKER_01I definitely agree with that, and I think it's a big mistake because we all know the arts is very expensive. Yeah, obviously, studio time is expensive, but for me to build this studio was incredibly expensive. It was very expensive, you know, and the rent on it is expensive and all the gear, um, it really adds up. So if I wasn't working two jobs to make that work and to fund it, I wouldn't have been able to fund myself building a commercial studio and taking that plunge. So I really think it is important that you have a foundation stable solid income while you pursue your dreams. I I think it's one of those cliches which is often goes wrong where I'm gonna quit everything, I'm gonna pursue full-time. I I it can be good in some essences, like to motivate you, I guess, in some ways, but really I think you need to have enough time to pursue it. You can't have a job that takes up all your time and energy, I agree with that, but something that's a bit more flexible, but that can pay your bills and you know keep you going while while you pursue your dreams. I think everyone has to have that. Yeah. Especially in this economy, you know, rent is the cost of the stuff. Yeah, cost of living. You'd gotta have a you've gotta have something that's paying the bills. For sure.
SPEAKER_02But what we first met um when um you did the music for criminal helpline. You were sitting there and I was sitting here. Yep. He came in, I was like, okay, Wesley Black told me about you. He said you were the best. I'm like, okay, let's do this. Right, the best, aren't you? Uh I said, who who do you recommend for the music for the film? He only recommended you. He was like, he was like, This is your guy to do the music for the film. Damn, I appreciate that. Thanks. And that's fine. You know, I came in, I didn't want to waste any time, so I came in knowing as much information about the reference track as possible. Because I was like, I want to do something very similar to this. And I even researched like the beats per minute. Because I was like, okay, I'm just gonna come in with all the information so we just see the ground running. And we sat down and I played you the song, and literally you were just nodding your head listening to the song, and within 10 seconds, you just turned to me and went, it's 124 beats per minute. And then went back to Bob and here, and I was like, Well, how sorry, like how have you just done that? And then 30 seconds goes by, and the first section of the song stops, and you pause it, and you grab a guitar, and you perfectly played the song, like for the first time listening. And I was, even though I just saw it happen with my own eyes, I still had to ask you, how did you do that? Like it was a magic trick. I said, How have you what's going on here? I've studied before, but you know, I literally it looked like magic. I was like, How have you just like in front of my eyes? You pulled a rabbit out of a hat. How have you done this? Have you always just had an inherent skill for this, or has that come from just working for over a decade?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yes, definitely time. I mean, obviously, I coming from a musical family, I've been surrounded by music, so I do understand music, or I had a good starting point. When I calculate, you know, they say like the 10,000 hours thing. Um, and I think last time I calculated it, I think I've been on FL Studio for over 20,000 hours. So I'm just so entrenched in the software. And I mean it's if when I when you get a song, you can like see the the waveform, and most of the time I can just figure out the BPM from that. I can just instantly drag and just see where it aligns on the grid and I go, yep, 124. Obviously, I can I can probably get a from ear, I could probably get like a 10 BPM range. Oh, that's 120 to 130. I don't think I could be like 126, you know, like that, that'll be pretty crazy. And then I guess for the the melody stuff, like I mean, there's only seven notes in a scale, so it's you kind of you kind of hear it and you just go, oh well, I know. Yeah, but you're I'm not like Charlie Pooth where I've got the perfect pitch thing, but you know, you can most like most musicians where they're if they've been playing their instrument for like years.
SPEAKER_02It's still insane though. You sound like it's so simple, you're like, Roman, there's only seven notes. I'm like, oh chuck us a guitar, I'll give it a go. Like that's that's insane.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean I guess it's like that for everything though, right? You do something a lot and then you just get quicker at it and stuff. I'm sure if I tried to do some video editing stuff or some film things, I would just be pulling my hair out for three hours and you just go click click.
SPEAKER_02Well, bro, you had when we were using FL Studios, you like whenever you would click onto a new thing to add to the song and the pop-up bar would come up, you would so the pop-up bar would come up, you would click something on it and click it off before it even fully came onto the screen. Like I had absolutely no idea what you were doing because it moves so fast. And I asked you, I was like, have you just been using this for so long? You know exactly where all the little sliders are on the screen. And you were like, Yeah, pretty much. And I was like, that efficiency must come. Because obviously, knowing the technical skill, like using FL Studios, that comes with time because it's just the layout, you've got to learn the layout, but just almost like the ear and timing, that is just something I feel like within. Like, I feel like while you can do it, if someone did it for 25, I mean, fuck, you'd hope if they had 25 hours, they could do it. Just how this efficiency and the swiftness with how you worked, bro, it made me realize I was working too slow. I was like, if this what Daunt does in an hour, like this is insane. Just the quickness, you were moving at everything. There was no like, oh, what should we do now? And you're like slowly moving the mouse around, or you're like, oh, let me grab the guitar and you're slowly playing the guitar. Everything was just moving so quickly, and it made me realize, okay, especially if you're gonna charge by the hour, this is what you need to be doing. You need to be working at 100 miles per hour in the hour. But my next question was with music, there's always so much things that you can add. How do you know when a track is finished?
SPEAKER_01It's a good question. Thanks for having us. We've got one. There's always the chase for the perfect song, right? You get the law of diminishing returns where you reach this point where you go, I've spent another, we spent five hours on this track, I've spent another five hours in this track, and I think we've just made it worse. It can be hard to know. I just think if you listen to a song and nothing sounds like it needs to be fixed, and you have no ideas of things that could be added, then it's probably done.
SPEAKER_02And is that a skill that you've developed over time though, like that confidence?
SPEAKER_01I guess so. It's I mean, it's also taste and stuff too. Yeah, it's kind of one of those subjective things, right? There's not really a definitive answer of I'm sure that some people might want to add more, some people want to add less. It just yeah, kind of.
SPEAKER_02It's gonna come down to style as well. Like some producers might just add like a hundred tracks. Yeah. Whereas some might keep it to 20 or around that range.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And I mean, if you look at popular musical um Platinum Records and stuff, there's Platinum Records where there's five tracks. It's just vocals, drums, bass, and whatever. That's it. And then you there's others where there's a hundred and something. So it just, yeah, really just. It's done. You know, yeah. You could keep going forever. Yeah. If you don't, you I think you have to have that mindset a bit where there's no such thing as perfect. So if it sounds great, then it sounds great.
SPEAKER_02And when you sit down to start a song, what is your bedrock? So is it emotion? Is it melody? Is it drums? What what is the antithesis of all of your songs? How does it always start for you?
SPEAKER_01Years ago I was quite drum focused, whereas now I think I'm much more melody emotion focused. Especially if someone plays you a reference song or they say they want something that's dark or they want something that's moody or cinematic or any of those things. Like instantly certain chords and melodies are gonna come into my head. It would be probably the melodies and the chords first.
SPEAKER_02And so you build it up from a and I'll build it from that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I'll build it most mainly a chord progression, probably. I'll probably start with a chord progression, because that's the bedrock of what emotion or story you're gonna tell. You want it to be uplifting or sad or whatever. And then once you hear the chords, a melody will pop into your head. And then once you have the melody and the chords, a bass will pop into your heads, and then the drums will come to you, and then and then it all just organically will you'll just hear it.
SPEAKER_02How much of your music is emotion over technical skill?
SPEAKER_01It's a good question. It's very good.
SPEAKER_02The last year no one said that, so I'm like, yes, we've got two already. Let's go. I think that's That was following my girlfriend's question as well. I gotta say thank you, Caitlin.
SPEAKER_01Shadow, shout out I think in Perth we There's not a huge scene. In in LA, there'll be ten different producers or people working on a track. Here it's just me. So I'll have to put my creative emotion hat on, and I'll make a beat. And then I'll put my mixing hat on, and now it's a technical and I mix it, I get the drums right, I set on my side chains, I EQ it all. And then the they'll record and then again it's the technical side of recording, and then it's creative. What effects do we put on it? Do you know what I mean? You kind of gotta do there are two different stages almost.
SPEAKER_02How do you transition in between those two stages to where one doesn't negatively impact the other?
SPEAKER_01I don't know, it kind of just goes back to what we were saying before. I'm just so lost in the source, it's just instant.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I just hear something I don't like, I'll mix it, and then I'll just a melody upon my head, I just put it in, then I hear a guitar, I just chuck a guitar and then I'll just Where do you think those ideas come from? I mean, if you think of how much music everyone listens to in their life, you've probably heard this melody somewhere in the past or something in a similar song, but you've Chinese whispered it and now it's a kind of not quite right to true to what it was. You're remembering it incorrectly, but then it's made it something new now. And you kind of Yeah, I guess it is just you're kind of recycling these ideas that have been floating in your subconscious and they just come to you.
SPEAKER_02And do you reckon maybe creative ideas then are misremembered memories?
SPEAKER_01Kind of, yeah. That's my theory.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's your theory. Because I've heard um I can't remember who told me, but someone told me that ideas they said something like ideas aren't always original. Like almost like ideas are out there, almost like a uh energy wave. And if you don't grab onto it and put it into real life, someone else is gonna get that idea and put it into real.
SPEAKER_01What's that book, The Creative Act? Maybe I've no idea. Oh, I'm having a mind blowing out. Who's that really famous producer works like with Kanye and all that? Metro? No, no, and it's like the old guy. Dre. Chat, if or not chat or YouTube comments, they're gonna destroy me right now. Rick Rubin, I think. Oh, yeah. He has a book, The Creative Act. And I think he talks, I think it might be.
SPEAKER_02He talks about how there's ideas that energy and like you grasp onto it and Because even in the uh MJ movie, there's a scene where he's in the pool trying to think of ideas, and his brothers are like, I'm playing. He's like, if I don't write this down now, God will give it to Prince. And he truly believed that if he didn't take on those ideas in the moment when they were given to him, then some or Prince would get them instead. I feel like as well, because there'll be sometimes I'll have an idea for a scene or a movie, and I just don't just years go by, I didn't do it, and then something similar will come out and it'll be like so similar to what the ideas, and I've I've spoken to a few people and they felt the exact same. Yeah Have you had that where you had an idea for a song and maybe you just didn't act on it or whatever, or a concept, and then someone else in the world has done something very similar?
SPEAKER_01I do believe in the whole if I don't do it now, the idea will never come to me again, and I'll never be able to get the same sound that I was about to get. I am big on that in the moment. Every time you can't ever the exact energy and just the the vibe you got in that moment, you'll never be able to recreate.
SPEAKER_02Like a flow state?
SPEAKER_01Kind of, yeah. You'll never be able to recreate. What do you think gets you into that situation? I'm pretty automatic now with my flow state. Like I think I kind of just teach me.
SPEAKER_02I mean, yeah, how did you get to that?
SPEAKER_01I feel like if I was on my own and someone was like, make me a song, I would really struggle. Whereas if someone goes, I want some I want this or I want to convey this idea or this emotion or this song. If someone gives me a starting point, and also I have all my with every artist, I'll have an idea of what kind of music they make, how their voice sounds, what kind of what they like melodically and stuff. So I have all this info to kind of go off. And then so someone gives me an idea and I can just go bang and I'll make something, and then I'll just be flow state because I'll once I add one thing, another idea comes, and another idea, and another idea, and it just comes through.
SPEAKER_02Let's say you've just had like a bad day and your mind might be thinking about something else. How do you snap into that flow state?
SPEAKER_01It's like what you're saying before with me playing the instrument. Once I hear something, instantly my brain will just start analyzing it. What cause do they use? What is this? And it it's automatic. I can't even control it. Like if someone was trying to talk to me, I would probably struggle. And sometimes I do feel bad about that. People trying to talk to me in a session, and I'll just be like, Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like, sorry, what was that? Yeah, and then a couple of times I always like, I'll leave him alone. Yeah, yeah, he's locked in, you know. I do get like that. It's very um, it's just very automatic. I kind of, you know, my missus reckons I have ADHD, you know? Like, maybe I do. It's I mean If it works, it works. Yeah, as long as it works, it's super power in some aspects. So but yeah, I think the ideas just come. I don't really have to force them.
SPEAKER_02So And do you reckon that's the same as when you were working, let's say when you're working in your home studio, did you were you able to still get into the flow state as accessible?
SPEAKER_01I think yeah, probably.
SPEAKER_02So it doesn't really matter where you are.
SPEAKER_01Nah, I think it's just the music, really. I think I've always had that. But like I've always when I was a kid, I would just sit on FL for like six hours, but just sit at home on my own.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I've always just been super So you just have it.
SPEAKER_02You just have it. Like there's no like because one of my questions was are there any like habits or rituals that you do to get into that flow state? But for you, it's just sit in front of the computer and we're there, kind of and you're just off. Yeah, it kind of it really is, I think.
SPEAKER_01I never really thought about it that much.
SPEAKER_02I never really thought about it that much. Because like for me, you know, with writing, right now, writing a feature film, I'll sometimes I'll sit in the in the garage, which has become like the new office. You know, sometimes it'll just be going. You'll just be going, but then sometimes you're like slugging along. It's just like, and do you have that where you're just slugging along?
SPEAKER_01Oh, for sure, for everything else in my life, a hundred percent. Not for anything. Yeah, well, so let's say I'm practicing guitar.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, it's a slug, you know.
SPEAKER_01Or practicing piano. Like a really Brilliant motivate myself to get there. I mean, and I've studied like Japanese and stuff, and sometimes I'll be really into it, and other times I'm like, oh, nothing's sticking. Like, this is brutal. I know exactly what you're talking about. And when I used to study, sometimes I'll be doing great, sometimes I'll be, how do I get in that flow state again? Nah, music is definitely on FL. Just on FL. I've it's just I've been doing it for so long that I'm 100% free in the software. I don't have to. If you play me, if you play me a sound or someone wants a certain effect, I don't have to think of like the technical how do I achieve this sound. I already probably know. The ideas can come and I don't have to stop and think about how to enact them.
SPEAKER_02I can just And that sense of freedom maybe opens up the mind to where you have that 20,000 hours more than anything else you've done. Yeah. That sense of freedom almost maybe gives you a sense of comfort to where you can just slip into that world.
SPEAKER_01There's no resistance or friction, maybe. Maybe that is it. I've never really thought about this. Like this is really psychology.
SPEAKER_02A big point of this podcast is to see if there are any similarities in the creative process between different creative disciplines. So for example, right now you're a music producer. The last person I interviewed was a martial artist. Oh wow. The person before that was Ollie, the producer for Helpline, another filmmaker, writer. And it's to see if there's any similarities with, especially with getting into the flow state. Because that's if there was a way to get into the flow state on command. Magic pill. And have that elevated work just accessible, enabled to unlock in your own brain.
SPEAKER_01I'd want that. I think that you need to be able to.
SPEAKER_02Like you can't have Because it feels like that when you're in the flow state with whatever you're doing. It does feel like it's automatic and second nature, and you don't have to think about those things.
SPEAKER_01You're not thinking. You're all you're thinking about, you're 100% present. All you're thinking about is what's next in the task that you're doing. You're not worrying about it's like what you said before about you had a bad day. I won't think about what I've done. Like I won't think about anything. I mean, maybe something really bad has happened, but 90% of the time, if it's just your general day-to-day, stuck in traffic, something really frustrating happened. You just leave it at the door. Yeah, I'll just be fully immersed. As soon as I get into FL, but yeah, it's just automatic. If someone Because whenever I hear something, I'll go, oh, we could add this, that could be fun. Or we could add that, that could be cool. Yeah. Just try that. And that's all I'm thinking about.
SPEAKER_02Well, I was gonna ask as well. So you're obviously in the studio for many hours a day working on music. When you're not in the studio, do you are you still constantly hearing music inside your head?
SPEAKER_01Am I hearing it? Yes, and no. I wouldn't say that I hear it more than anyone else.
SPEAKER_02I feel like I constantly have a song playing in my head.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I feel like we all do, don't we? Oh no, someone's some annoyance. Some people don't. Okay, maybe some people don't, but I feel like it's quite normal to just have a song. You say you do. Yeah. I'm sure a lot of people would just they got s a Sabrina Carpenter stuck in their heads. Whatever's on the radio. Yeah. I think that's pretty normal. I mean, I will have it for music I've made in sessions, definitely. If someone's made a real catchy song in the session, that'll be stuck in my head.
SPEAKER_02So you like, like as you mentioned before, you like to work, you prefer to work with another artist in the studio. Yeah. What do you think makes a great uh collaboration?
SPEAKER_01That's a good question again. Free for free. It's great. I think probably being open for it to sound bad before it sounds good is big. I know sometimes you can collaborate with people and they'll maybe shut an idea down before you've given it a shot. Yeah, having a mindset of just trying random stuff is really good. Obviously, having a kind of clear idea of what you want is very helpful for me. Having an idea of a clear sound or like references of what kind of vibe you're trying to achieve makes it a lot easier for me because someone might say they want dark, but that could mean a million things, depending on who it is. That could mean piano, that could mean synth, that could mean bass, that could mean anything.
SPEAKER_02And in terms of like energy, you have to meet a lot of new people. Yeah. For the first time a lot. Yeah. Which can be kind of daunting to some people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm very scary. You know me. I'm a scary guy.
SPEAKER_02Uh I guess if someone comes in with maybe not the best attitude, but you're trying to still uphold your quality of service. How do you deal with that situation?
SPEAKER_01It's pretty rare for me these days. People just come in with a good vibe. Most of the time, because it's all word of mouth. I don't advertise. People only know me from someone, they've always been recommended by someone. Yeah. Sometimes they get through Google, but it's pretty rare. Most of the time it's from a recommendation, which already, you know, they're probably gonna be good because it's a friend of a friend. Back when I had a home studio, I would have it more because people will kind of see you as this guy serious, it's just a hobby, he's just doing it out of his home, he's not the real deal. But when now that I have a commercial space, people go, Oh wow, this is this guy must be doing something. So people I think it brings a different perspective or attitude for people.
SPEAKER_02Say you're in a session with another artist and you guys kind of hit a wall. Let's say you have different ideas or or whatever you're trying, the more wood you put on the fire, the less it's getting good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02How do you get yourself out of that right? How do you inspire creative ideas?
SPEAKER_01Just start a different track. Just start again. I that's what I think. Because you can always come back to it, and when you listen to something with fresh ears, you'll get ideas.
SPEAKER_02Throughout your career, um, you know, starting from the home studio to now hive, I'm sure you've dealt with some setbacks throughout your career. How have you dealt with setbacks to m push you forward through your career?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I guess everyone has their failures and stuff, and you just gotta learn from them. I think back when I started, I d definitely had a few people who didn't provide the service that they were looking for. But that's fine, you can't let it ta damage your ego or make you think you're not good anymore. You just gotta improve and figure out how you can be better for next time and those issues, and as also kind of the running a business thing of I never I'm you know, I'm just a musician, so I'm trying to figure out how to run a business and um from that aspect, that was a whole new thing as well. And you know, a lot of admin and tax and headaches and stressing out that I'm not gonna meet the deadlines that the ATO wants me to and things. As I say, you just learn from it and how did you deal with it emotionally?
SPEAKER_02Because I'm sure it can be quite upsetting in the moment.
SPEAKER_01I feel like I'm quite lucky. I have a good support network. Um, you know, I have a loving fiance, great family. It's good for me as well. My older brother is also a musician, so he gets it, and he also runs well, he's a sole trader, you know, as well. So all of the tax stuff, he was straight from the start, do this, do this, you know, um, set up your bank this way. And so I I did have a lot of help along the way.
SPEAKER_02And probably encouragement when things aren't going good. So you've got these people.
SPEAKER_01I was very fortunate. I know a lot of creatives have to win over their family, you know, their family as the ones being saying, get a real job, you know. So I kind of had the reverse where I was almost my family was around me saying, Go for it, do what you want to do. Um I found it so unique, which is very unique, which is very uncommon. So I think I was very lucky, I was very blessed in that sense. Um, I think my yeah, my journey to doing it was I had I had failures and hardship like everyone, but I think I had a lot of support as well. I can't um I can't undermine that as well. You know, I have to definitely acknowledge that I had a lot of yeah, shout out to my family and my friends and stuff.
SPEAKER_02So one thing you mentioned earlier as well was the design of the studio.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02How do you think, because it's so cool, how do you think the design has affected the music you make? Like, for example, if the design was completely different, do you think your music would be different?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I do for sure. It's like what I was saying before with the in that exact moment you'll never recreate that. I think if I was in a glass room down in Margaret River looking at some vineyards, I would make different music. Or if someone brought me an idea, I would think of it differently. You definitely feed off the environment and the atmosphere around you, so which is also why I think it would be cool to have a very different study. This studio is like a spaceship. That's what I wanted. I wanted to feel like you could be flown to another world. To another world, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Or just anywhere in the world, because there's no windows.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's no windows, it's fully dimmed, like blacked out, no light. I'm a bit of a vampire in here. I think it definitely does influence the music that I make.
SPEAKER_02What made you pick this colour choice?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I love the matte black, like dark. I could never have my house like this without my uh my fiance would never let me do that, but um probably for good reason. But I just love it.
SPEAKER_02It'd be tough at night trying to get around it. Yeah, it's anything.
SPEAKER_01I love it though. I think it looks so aesthetic. Yeah, and it's really cool. So it was fun for me to just fully create a vibe that I could never really have in any other setting, all fully blacked out, all neon lit.
SPEAKER_02But for example, if that purple light was red, yeah, you'd you'd make different music? Probably. So how do you know that the purple light is the best choice?
SPEAKER_01Well, I did a vote for that, didn't you know? No. So I had a blue one originally, because ice blue is like my favourite colour. So I went with ice blue because that's just what you know my gut was telling me. Yeah. And then that one broke. So I put up a poll and I said, Alright, guys, do I go purple, neon, uh sorry, like ice blue or red for my for the neon. And the votes were in, purple got the highest amount of votes, so I went with that. And that was that was pretty much it. I let the energy of the people decide, I guess. I put it up to the universe.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I put it up to the universe.
SPEAKER_01I couldn't make the call myself. Yeah. I think it looks great. I think it's a really cool colour and a really cool vibe. The people made the right choice. Yeah. You know, it is a big responsibility, I guess.
SPEAKER_02And in five years, when the lease runs out and you may move on to another space, do you reckon you'll design it differently?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I might want something similar. I really do like the the blacked out, but something maybe more industrial or something with maybe some more plants, I think, could be cool. That'd be nice. Yeah, bit of bit of oxygen. Yeah. As I said, I would love to have a getaway Airbnb studio down south somewhere. Entertainment Parla does that. I think they do, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02He has like a studio in Margaret River or something.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's just so interesting though.
SPEAKER_02Like you you genuinely definitely believe then the design of the environment that you're working in could has an impact on the work you create. Yeah. Let's say you were producing a song at King's Park with your laptop on FM. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Different song. For sure, yeah. For sure. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Because that's important. That's something that that, again, with the podcast, it's very interesting. That's something I ask all my guests is have you noticed a difference in the music you create compared to where you're working? Yeah. So, how different was the music that you create here compared to when you were at your home studio?
SPEAKER_01The thing is, is that I guess I don't know. You making music is kind of this automatic subconscious thing where there's all these thoughts or influences or ideas floating around and you're just randomly grabbing at them. And that pool of ideas will be different for wherever you're at. If you're in King's Park, certain thoughts, feelings, emotions, ideas, memories will be floating in your subconscious when you're there. So when you pull on them, they're gonna be different. I could never say that making music here makes my music more futuristic. I mean, possibly it does because it's like a spaceship, but I can't know that for certain. I just know that wherever you're at is gonna have an impact on your music. You might not know why or how, and you can't really control it, but you've got to be aware of it.
SPEAKER_02Because even for like songwriting, I've asked people have you noticed a difference in how you write a song compared to where you are? And like if you went to a place that had significant emotional impact and just sitting in that energy, yeah, that affects the song. It would, yeah. And I think maybe because you've been in here for a few years now and you've had so much success in the room, just the energy is almost like it feels different walking in here from when I was outside to when I'm in this room, there's something special like in the air. Like that's really cool, you think that a hundred percent. Like even just walking in before I set anything up, I was like, it's just nice to be back in here as well. I think what you said about the comfortability. I mean, you've got the sofa, yeah, you've got this soundproof padding, and then you've got the music, like the microphone in there. If someone was wondering how they could develop a not a safe space, but a a successfully creative environment, yeah, what advice would you give them?
SPEAKER_01Obviously, certain things, the dim lighting, the cool lighting colours, stuff like that will make an impact. I think if it was really bright and white, like a laboratory, you would feel very exposed. You wouldn't feel very comfortable.
SPEAKER_02So there has to be comfort.
SPEAKER_01I mean, when people go to like clubs, right? And then the lights come on at the end and it's like, oh my god, I lost and everyone, you geez, I look shambles, like what the hell's going on? Whereas before when the lights were really dim and there was the music playing, every you were in a vibe. Yeah. And I mean that doesn't have to be neons, like that could be candles or that kind of warm orange ambient lighting or stuff like that. You could get a nice cool lo-fi, maybe industrial vibe or something.
SPEAKER_02Do you reckon, as well, to maximize the space, only do what the room so, for example, you don't use this room for anything else besides making music. Yep. Like, do you reckon that plays a part in it as well? That when you come in here, this spaceship is designed for making music. Yeah. There's no you don't like do other work in here. There's no, you don't do great like grocery shopping in here. No, no, no. Like it's literally just that contained creative space. Do you reckon that plays a role in it as well?
SPEAKER_01I'm pretty sure they've studied this a bit. There's a bit of science, the research like that. I need to find the list. I sort of read a book about that. Oh, wait. Where it was kind of saying You want to put me on your book game, bro.
unknownOh.
SPEAKER_02What are you saying about that? I haven't read that many.
SPEAKER_01Atomic habits is the one that I remember the most clearly. I also read one that was the organized mind. That might have been the one that said it. But essentially, like if you can kind of segregate your activities to like certain rooms and things, it can make you more productive because there's obviously less distractions and you can get in the flow state easier and things. This room is for music. Well, as soon as you walk in, as I say, that it might be the acoustics, you know. It's like when you walk in, the room sounds different, it feels different, the air moves differently in here. So you're gonna instantly have this like wow kind of feeling or take your breath away almost or something. Yeah, like when you go in the booth and it's fully dead, you know, you you can hear in heartbeat. You know, it's like a it's like a strange feeling. A room set up specifically for one task really makes it easier. Um, there's no distractions, you know. You're in here for music, and that's what you're gonna do.
SPEAKER_02Some songs just completely break through everything, break through the noise. Like for an example that springs to my head is the latest Bad Bunny album. Song's in Spanish, you know what I mean? But I'm still listening, I don't even know what he's saying. Yeah, but it's the biggest song in the world, he's doing the Super Bowl, he's winning Grammys. What do you think makes a song break through everything? Breaks through genre. What do you think is special about those songs?
SPEAKER_01This is a good question. Again, this is another one.
SPEAKER_02I don't know how many we're at, but let's go.
SPEAKER_01It's like five or something, maybe I don't know. That's pretty good. We did it.
SPEAKER_02We did it.
SPEAKER_00These fucking cameras keep up.
SPEAKER_01Obviously, the song has to be good, it has to connect with people, having some sort of like meaning behind it. I like that you say how um you don't even know what he's saying, but you still can feel the emotional.
SPEAKER_02It makes me think it's not about the lyrics.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I agree. I'm actually very big on this. I don't really hear lyrics much. I never remember lyrics. I'm one of those people who I'll have listened to the song a hundred times, I don't remember any of the lyrics. Wow. People always ask me, Oh, do you get that bar? Do you get that little like rhyme I put there? I'm like, what rhyme? I didn't remember that. Not even listening. Because all I'm focused on is the timing, the pitch, the emotion, the energy, the volume, just the overall delivery, where that sits on the beat. You know, that's what I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about from a purely musical. If this was all in another language, does it sound good? Does it sonically sound good to my ears? That's what I'm most worried about. The lyrics can really connect with you if it's like a shared experience and someone can really relate. That can obviously kind of take it to the next level. I'm sure a lot of Spanish people might enjoy those songs in another level to you. So I think lyrics are very important, but I think lyrics are almost the icing on top. You've got to have the foundation, the cake has got to be. Because you can say some really profound, cool poetry completely out of time over a beat, and it sounds awful.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Whereas you can say some really stupid stuff over a beat and it can sound incredible. Like think of how many hits there are where they're saying the dumbest things, right? But the song's catchy and it's good, it's musically good, and that's what matters.
SPEAKER_02So you reckon sonically, yeah, the minimum is it has to sonically sound good to your ear. Definitely. Outside of lyrics, is there any way or anything that you can do to further almost guarantee that it will be a hit and connect with people?
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, guarantee it'll be a hit is impossible. Yeah, yeah. No everyone wants to do this, make a hit, but it's a secret source. Not true. I mean, obviously, labels, promotion, money, marketing, there's a lot that goes into the back end, pushes something to blow up or become successful. There's a lot of the TikTok blow-ups now, and there's a whole different kind of economy for it now where you know you really need a six-second catchy moment that people can use on a reel or a TikTok, and then that'll blow up the song. Versus having a four-minute long masterpiece where it used to be like that. Now it's much more short attention, something catchy. You really want that simple but magic. Like there's certain songs where you hear them and it's just like not even that complicated, but it's just magic.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Just that six seconds, you're just hooked. You just want to listen to that all day.
SPEAKER_02Have you noticed a change? Like you mentioned, TikTok. Have you noticed a change in music production over the course of your career?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Songs get sh have been shorter and shorter for shift. For sure.
SPEAKER_02Like definitely, like just consistently beginning shorter.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Like everyone's trying to make shorter songs now.
SPEAKER_02What was like an average song maybe 10 years ago compared to now?
SPEAKER_01People used to aim for three minutes. That was like a good starting point. Now people want two. Sometimes people want less than two.
SPEAKER_02Is that just for repeatability as well, maybe?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, probably I think two, because you get more streams. Yeah. So there's like lots of reasons why. Also, let's say you have a really good verse and you well, let's say you have two really good verses. That could be two songs for you, kind of. Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Why wouldn't you double your chances? Roll the dice twice. Yeah. Versus just having both verses on one song. For an artist that is trying to blow up or like is in that building phase where they don't have an established big audience, you've got to have more volume of work, more catchy. Because people don't know you, they're only going to give you five seconds of their time. Whereas if people everyone knows Drake, he dropped three albums, you know, and everyone listens to them all because they know him and they're going to give him time. Yeah. You have to keep that in mind when you're making your songs.
SPEAKER_02Is there any advice that a producer or a musician, when you were coming up, is there any advice or any wisdom that you heard from any of those that really helped you with your career?
SPEAKER_01I mean, the one that comes to mind is probably Skrillex. Just his philosophy of he kind of just made what he thought was cool, and then everyone was hating on him. He was making dubstep and everyone was saying, Oh, it's transforming, it's washing machines having sex and whatever. You know what I mean? They're saying all this hate, right? And he just made it because he thought it was cool. And then he dropped this kind of like pop stuff with Justin Bieber. Oh, he's a sellout, he's not making dub, where's the drop? Hate, hate, hate. And then he went and now he's he's making like house or something with Fred again or whatever. And then, oh, you know, like he used to have meaning in his music, now it's just a uh four on the floor drum. You know, whatever he's always doing his thing, and everyone's chatting, and he just makes what he thinks is cool, and he just doesn't worry about any of the the politics of it or and I think it's like a very good philosophy for like being a creative in any space.
SPEAKER_02Just trust your instincts and what you think is cool. Because in filmmaking, a lot of people say, make the film that you'd want to watch. So with music, is it kind of make the song?
SPEAKER_01I would say exactly the same. Like, what what do you wish there was more of in the world? Music.
SPEAKER_02It helps being in a comfortable place. The last guy who I interviewed was he's a world champion Muay Thai fighter. Yeah, wow. And I asked he's just my boss, he's one of the guys I didn't know. That's crazy. One of my questions was let's say he trains at two gyms. Did he know? A difference in how we trained comparing at the gym? And he said, Yeah. And I was like, Well, what was what made you train better at one? And he said, The environment, like the people who you're training with, if they're friends, you're gonna have more of a good time and all of that. And it was like what you're saying about that comfort, so and especially what you said about how building a space and how there's no and how the air is literally different. Like, I didn't even think about that, but yeah, you're right. There's the ventilation is different in it, so the atmosphere is physically different, and because you've turned that space into when the air is like this, I make fucking cold music coming in, yeah, everyone feels that. Yeah, you walk in, and it's almost like you're walking taller, yeah. Because you're like, we're in a different location, yeah. We're in a different space. Definitely, and you I feel like that really translates into what music you make. And it's made me realise because right now I'm working in the garage because yeah, girlfriends moved in, so I needed a man cave. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm in the garage now, and I've put a desk in there. And I one thing I fucking love about your lights, bro. So when I moved here four years ago, I lived on Murdoch campus in the uni village, and I had half the room, I had the LED lights were purple, and half the room was blue, which is why I really fucked with this room because it reminded me so much. I called it the lavender haze. Yeah, one of the very first podcasts I did with Wes, when I asked him, Do you reckon that plays a part if you had a red light or a blue light or something like that, how that makes a difference? And he wasn't sure at the time. I've asked you now, and you said, Yeah, definitely like it plays a part.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And building that level of comfort, I feel like I definitely need to do that. I need to fucking like soup up the garage a bit more so it has that level of comfort. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Like kind of on that note where when I was building the studio, I was like, I want people, because especially in rap, which is my main demographic. Rap is all about confidence, and people want to like feel cool and look cool, and they're like, I'm the man, I'm him, I've got the money and the whatever, right? You want people to come in here and be like, I recorded a proper studio, like I'm a legit. It's like if someone went into like one of the million dollar Sony studios, they'll be like, I've made it. They haven't even made the song yet. Yeah. You know, they haven't even made the song. But they would feel that sense of I'm him just by being in here.
SPEAKER_00For sure.
SPEAKER_01And I think that's something that I wanted where it's like, when you walk in here, you're like, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And it gives it to you as well. Yeah. Like compared to when you're in the home studio, you now come in here and you're like, okay, I'm not doing this in my own.
SPEAKER_01This isn't a hobby anymore. This is like I'm a you're in a proper space. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Definitely, mate. Definitely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, I definitely am like, because writing in the garage has been fun. It's definitely allowed me to write more.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Just having that designated space for it.
SPEAKER_00For sure.
SPEAKER_02But it still is in my garage and my house. Like having another like space designated writing space.
SPEAKER_01I mean, you can, I mean, even just making it more aesthetic, you know, and just making it like a bar.
SPEAKER_02The LED lights and stuff. I've got to.
SPEAKER_01Put them in there, man. Put candles in there and shit. Like get those um, what is it? Those like star lights. You know, the night sky ones with like the whole um they do like the nebulas and stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like just random stuff like that. Like it can only it can be like a $30 Amazon T-Mu thing, you know. But just something so that you can. Also that I like the ritual of here, like when I come in, it's like lights on, outside light, da da da. You kind of like boot everything up, and now you're like, okay, now I'm ready. And I guess even like having that little ritual of So there is kind of like a little bit of a ritual? Well yeah, I guess like booting everything up and turning it all off is a little bit inconvenient. Like it takes me a couple minutes because I have to like turn all of that on, turn that on, turn that on, turn that on, calm down, turn both the neons on, turn the PC on, turn the speakers on, turn my interface on, go in, turn the booth on, right? Turn the TV on. So there's enough things that it like kind of takes me like a minute or two. You know that kind of resistance concept where if I was to stop and leave, I would have to turn all of that off. It's kind of annoying. So I might as well just keep on for a little bit longer. Do you know what I'm saying? Whereas if you can walk in and out and not all you've got is your laptop, walk in, sit down, do it, walk out, don't. There's no setup or pack up which doesn't lock you in. Whereas sometimes having a little bit of a it only has to be a minute or two because too much will stop you doing it. But just having a little bit of a setup, just turning the knee on on, turning the light on, setting it up. Okay, now I'm ready. And then now you can go.
SPEAKER_02And do you feel your mindset changing from before you set everything up to when you've set everything up?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Now you're like, ah, everything's ready. Let me begin. And then when you stop, you can't just walk out of the room. It's not that easy. You have to turn everything off again. You have to pack down. So you're gonna you've kind of got, well, I could do it, I've got 15 minutes to do, but maybe I'll do it tomorrow. But then you go, oh, I might as well, because then I'm gonna have to turn everything, I'm gonna have to reset up the space and stuff. So I might as well just smash down now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Kind of like secure. Yeah. In a way, because you're like, okay, I've set everything up, we've powered up, and now we're ready to go. Yeah. You know what I mean? Whereas before, if it was just like you said, walk in, put the laptop down, oh, I'm not really feeling it today. Yeah, let me walk out. It's too easy to leave. Yeah. So you've got to make it hard to not just leave.
SPEAKER_01Kind of, yeah. Okay. But as I say, it only has to be a minute. It can be 30 seconds.
SPEAKER_02It doesn't have to be just not just convenient inconvenience too inconvenient.
SPEAKER_01Slightly inconvenient. Yeah. Just ever so slightly inconvenient. Once I turn everything off, someone messaged me, oh man, like, can you quickly do this for me? Sorry, bro, I've got to do it tomorrow because I'm already out of here. I'm done. It's like work. You clock in, you clock out. You know, you've got to respect that.
SPEAKER_02So having that power up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that power up, power down. You've got to. And then so you have your online hours and you have your offline hours. I think that's very important. Not working 24-7, because it's impossible.
SPEAKER_02Say there's someone who wants to get into music producing. Let's let's say perf. Someone who wants to get into music producing and perf. What would be the best advice from someone who went from scratch to now full-fledged career in the business? What advice would you give to them?
SPEAKER_01I guess I would say just start, just do it. Obviously, you need to be good at what you're doing. You need to know what you're doing. I guess if you start too early, you could burn bridges, or like people might think, oh, he's not that good, and you might improve over that year, but they already have that opinion. They already have that opinion of you. It can be hard to change, especially Perth is very reputation, it's very small, everyone knows each other. But in saying that, I think you do have to back yourself and you do have to understand that you will have, like we said before, those failures. You might not provide what they want, and that's fine too. Just getting out there and starting, because you can't ever plan for the stuff you'll need to know. You'll have an idea of what you think it's going to be like, and it will be very different.
SPEAKER_02In terms of getting new artists to work with, obviously posting on your Instagram and stuff like that can be useful. But what other advice do you reckon could be good?
SPEAKER_01Definitely going to shows, going to local events and things. That's what I did a lot at the start.
SPEAKER_02And just telling them produced music.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like I I mean, in a bit of a segue of my really true origin of how I got into the scene and how I met everyone that I made music with was I was making dubstep and I was doing dubstep remixes for this Perth rap group, Rich Valentine, which is they haven't made music in a while now. But if you're in the Perth rap scene from years ago, you would know them. They did a clothing launch or something, and they invited me to just come through and um they did a collab, I think, with Banks Clothing, I think. It was one of the things I just went to this face-to-face event and I didn't know anyone there. I'd only chatted them on SoundCloud, I'd never even met any of these guys. And I go to this event and I know no one. But I just had that feeling of, oh, I should really get outside of my comfort zone and just try and meet some people. And I struck up some chats, I met some like local artists there. Well, I said I made music and then they showed me their music and stuff. And then from there, that was my first kind of connect. And then I went to more shows, met more people, and oh yeah, I'll I'll come through and check out your little home studio and and then one person recommends the next, and then you go from there, and then after like five years, now it's yeah, like my full-time thing. So I think you know, face-to-face interaction is really important. People really want a face to the name and it's free to go to some of these shows.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you just literally pull up and be like, yo, I make music. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01And you'll meet someone, and then if you can just say, Oh, record you for free or whatever, that's what I was doing. And then I'll say, Oh, I'll record you for 20 bucks an hour or something, you know, real cheap. And then once people go, Oh, this guy's actually good, and they recommend you, then you got the ball rolling, and then from there you just keep going. It's just a slow consistency game, and then you meet more and more people and your network expands, and then you know, it's like that multiplying concept where two people recommend you and then four people, and then now it's eight, and then like now I've worked with almost a thousand people or something. Yeah. So I mean, obviously, Instagram and social media is very important too, but just going to the shows. Yeah, going to events, meeting people.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, thank you so much for doing this today. My pleasure, thanks for having me. I've definitely learned so much. Like, I I think definitely with what you're talking about with the flow state and that sense of comfort and all of these things. Like, I'll I'll rewatch the tape, but I've definitely learned a lot and there's immediately stuff I can implement to improve. So I really appreciate it. Oh, my pleasure.
SPEAKER_01I'm glad that it's helped in some way. I mean just yapping on it. So it's great.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and this is we're at the Hive Studios with Daunt Studios that you can book through Daunt's Instagram, which will be linked in the description. Um Best and Path, come through for real. Come through, you'll have a good time. But yeah, thank you so much, Dawn. My pleasure.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for having me. It's been great.