PodCrash with Matt Ebert
PodCrash with Matt Ebert
Why Success Still Feels Empty for So Many High Achievers with Dr. Sharon Spano
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In your own words, could you describe what you do for us?
SPEAKER_00Well, it's a it's a wide range of services that I offer. Um my work is, as you know, is grounded in adult human development. I have a lot of background in trauma as well, and too many certifications to talk about, as my husband would tell you. It's another certification, Sharon, really. Uh, but the work primarily lands in I do strategic planning for companies. I also do leadership development. And then my I have a potential unleashed intensive that I offer for, you know, high-level leaders, high achievers, if you will, CEOs into the the mid-level, uh, where we work on complex issues or whatever might be going on for them. Often they're they feel stuck or there's some level of uncertainty or tension in their lives. You know, is this all there is kind of conversation, what I often refer to as the emptiness of success. And they're trying to figure out, you know, what what is next for me? Because this isn't it. You know, I've got the I've got all the toys, I've got the cars, the houses, and all that, but something's missing. And so that's that's where a lot of of the the work comes in there uh on an individual level.
SPEAKER_01Do you find that it it's pretty routine that problems are and patterns are similar, or is I imagine there's a little bit of uniqueness to everyone you coach, but are there things in common that really stand out?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there really are. And and it's such a good question, Matt. And you know, there are a lot of different ways I could talk about that. But I think one of the things that I see that has been kind of surprising to me is that, and that's why I I got into deeper work and and understood that I needed to have a better handle on uh the effects of trauma in in the long term, particularly generational trauma. Because one of the things that surprised me is a lot of the high achievers, myself included, you know, we all seem to have some level of trauma behind us that energizes us, that catapults us to uh desiring a greater level of success. It kind of seems like trauma can go, you know, in both directions. So what we call complex trauma, early childhood trauma, often, you know, can stunt someone's potential to be their highest self. You know, and then you know, that's where we see people going off the rails and, you know, winding up in, you know, prisons or whatever, drug addiction or whatever. But then there's the what I'll call the lower case trauma. You know, your parents divorced when you were five and it had a huge impact on you because maybe you didn't see your dad, you know, till you were 20. I have several clients who were immigrants into this country at young ages. And that had a level of traumatic effect on them that catapulted them to now be very, very successful leaders. So I think, you know, if I could be stereotypical for a moment and put it into one category, it's that uh our early childhood experiences obviously form who we are and how we think about ourselves and how we bel, you know, we believe ourselves to belong in the world. Uh, but they also can uh those those moments, those experiences, those circumstances can also uh cause us uh to be motivated to move beyond whatever that obstacle was.
SPEAKER_01That's great. You know, I haven't had the privilege of of working with you, but I I believe in the executive coaching. We we do it here at Crash Champions for a past few years now. With my coach, like I had no idea what to expect or where it was gonna go. And I've had a couple of them now. For sometimes you get a coach for a specific thing, like if you want to work on speaking better or something, but it more in general about kind of where you're stuck. I don't even know if we realize sometimes that we're stuck. Um we just keep fighting on and maybe not even know that there's anything wrong. Is that difficult to discover uh or for you to help us discover?
SPEAKER_00Well, it's not uh because of the training that I have and the background that I have. So I have different methodologies, and the key is I, you know, I have a structured uh process, but it's it's structured only to give us a starting point and to keep us focused, but then we go where the client needs to go. And and so within those uh frameworks, I can pretty much get to the root of things pretty quickly. Like the potential unleash is only a 12-week uh intensive. Now, many of my clients will stay on, you know, for for several rotations just because you know they're they're enjoying the process and they're learning. But I'll give you an example of a young man that I worked with a couple of years ago who was very, very stuck. And when he came into my world, you know, very, very bright, but just feeling like, you know, my my life has no meaning. You know, I'm I'm working hard every day, I'm not really getting anywhere. I've got three kids, you know, that kind of thing. And very quickly we discovered, and he he did not realize this was the core of it because he had buried it. He was, you know, 17 years old, somewhere in that range, 17, 18. And he and his buddies, you know, were out drinking like you know, boys will do sometimes. And the guy reared off the road and crashed into a tree, and his best friend was killed.
SPEAKER_01Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_00And he held himself uh responsible for that because they had a pact that will always take care of each other. And he he he in his heart of hearts believed I should never have let him drive. And he'd been carrying that for 15 years, you know, never got any outside support or counseling around that. And once we got to that was the root of his pain and suffering, then we were able to unpack a lot of other things where he was sabotaging, you know, his career, his marriage, you know, just uh he was really just inflicting pain on himself as a punishment for for that. So there's a lot of ways, and they're not always that dramatic or that intense. But, you know, I always say with with self-awareness comes opportunity for change. So the hard part is, you know, to to to look in the mirror. And my job is to kind of hold up that mirror with compassion and and and care and help the client see uh that you know, you're not alone in this. I mean, we all have our stories. As I said, there's capital T trauma and lowercase T, and it's all relative. And when we can face it and and step into uh what does it mean? Because that's where the growth comes in. We're meaning-making machines. And unfortunately, a lot of times we we craft a narrative that is not in our best interest. So my job is to help uh the individual see a different perspective and and to to to witness themselves in a variety of situations so that they can make those behavioral change changes that allow them to be their highest self on behalf of not only their businesses, but their families as well.
SPEAKER_01Appreciate that. You know, before we go too far, maybe I I would like to know how did you end up doing this? Was this your childhood dream um to to coach executives, or how did you how did you end up here?
SPEAKER_00Well, it's a great question. You know, when I think back as a child, I mean, I was one of these geeky kids that was reading psychology today, like when it first came on the market. Okay. And I was just reminded of that the other day because one came to my house. But it was, I didn't have a plan. I grew up in a very uh indigent family with no supports, no encouragement. There was no vision, there was no one saying you could do this, that, or the other. But I think in some ways that was the plan because that allowed me to see and have empathy and see other people in their highest potential because nobody ever saw it in me. I had to discover it myself and discover it the hard way. And so there were a variety of turns in the road, one being that my husband and I um had a son who was born with a very rare metabolic disorder. And um our boy uh, you know, was it was a challenge because he was he was wheelchair bound and there was just a lot of things that we had to go through there that led me down this path. So if I could give anyone credit for where my career, you know, or how it's evolved, it's my son Michael.
SPEAKER_01Oh wow. So I heard that about and you lost your son um a while back too, right?
SPEAKER_00Um yes, my son passed away in in 2008.
SPEAKER_01Some a very dramatic situation for you, and you it's kind of motivated you and done good things for you. Um that's one way to I guess handle the trauma, huh?
SPEAKER_00Right, right. Yeah. I mean, there was no alternative in that um I, you know, you have to, I had I was already in this in this field, and so I was already in the process, you know, of of developing uh to whatever level was needed at the time to deal with the trauma of the time. My son was critical for four years, so it was very intense, you know, and my husband and I are both entrepreneurs and we're working full-time, and you're trying to manage, you know, your your home life at the same time you're trying to keep your clients because you think, well, tomorrow is going to be a better day and we'll get our life back, you know. But of course, you know, that didn't happen. So then then the the process of moving through the grief, I think, you know, when we talk about the stages of human development, which which you alluded to in our pre-conversation, uh, there's 12 stages. And just to give an example how trauma can move you through if you're doing the work around the trauma, I went from like the achiever stage to the what we call the construct aware stage, which is stage 10.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So that was quite a journey for me to go from five to 10. I didn't know that was happening at the time. I was just doing the work on myself to survive the pain. But that's partly why, Matt, I'm so passionate about helping others evolve, because I know one, it's possible. I know it's a journey, I know it's not easy, but I also know what's on the other side of uh that process.
SPEAKER_01So the 12 stages is that of like a self-awareness kind of development? Or you probably don't have time to cover all of that for us, but um is it 12 stages of what?
SPEAKER_00Well, when we talk about the stages, you know, it's it's kind of hard because we're really talking about consciousness, which can sound so woo-woo-y, right, but it's all of who we are, our personality, our leadership style, our communication style. I mean, it's it's our soul. It's you know, the stages represent all of who we are as a human being and our perspective on the world. So to put it in simple terms, I like to think about a mountaintop, you know, and we we're all familiar with development, you know, of children, because we've all been a child or had had a child or been around children. So we know the first four stages are tied directly to to, you know, from birth to like adolescence. Beyond that, they're not necessarily tied to age. You know, they they evolve based on our life experiences and the meaning we make of them. And so, uh, for instance, you know, the expert stage is often where we see, and it's not necessarily correlated to professions, but we'll see people who are more analytical. You know, your engineers, your attorneys, your financial advisors often are at the expert stage where they rely on their cognitive capacities. But then as you move into the later stages, you know, the perspectives get bigger and bigger. So I like to think of it as that infant on Main Street in their crib looking at their little hand and they're aware of wow, this moving object, but they don't even know it's their hand, right? When they're two or three months old. All the way up to if you climb the top of that mountain, you could see across four counties or in some places four states. So, so if you think of that analogy as I have a broader perspective on the world, it's no longer about my egocentric needs, but I'm now looking at what is happening out there across uh multiple facets of the world, you know, even the universe.
SPEAKER_01It's amazing. So completely different way of thinking, really, as you as you kind of move up the the stages.
SPEAKER_00And a big part of my work, Matt, is helping, like I'm working with three partners right now who have very different leadership styles and and personalities and um and communication. And so the a big part of that work is helping them develop self-awareness and their specific ways that I do that. And then also helping them develop a second, maybe even third person perspective, meaning I'm not when I'm talking to you and listening to you, I'm not just trying to sell my point of view. I'm actually leaning in and hearing your point of view, which is not a skill that we're taught. It's not, it's not our natural inclination. My natural inclination is to, you know, convince you of my thought processes or what I believe should happen next. And it's a it's a lot of work for any leader to you know develop those skills. But when they when they develop them, um, it's an amazing thing. Like the two two partners that I'm working with now have been at cross rows with one another to the point of thinking of separating, and they have a very, very large portfolio. And yesterday, in a conversation with one of them, he actually reached out to me to talk about how I can support my partner better. And we went through that. And then I asked him at the end, I said, I'm I'm very curious because I see a huge developmental shift in you. Um, you know, not that long ago, you were ready to just split the partnership. What has changed? And he said, I I've come to realize that if I want him in my life and in my business, I need to do some things differently that I wasn't really willing to do before. And that's a big thing. You know, it's almost like saving a marriage for me. I mean, I was just so overjoyed to hear him, because we've been working on this for about a year now, and we've had incremental stages, but now I'm seeing this big leap that he's had. And um it's it's just so enlightening and joyful. I mean, it's the reason I do the work that I do.
SPEAKER_01You know, it resonates with me because this podcast actually is selfishly growth for me and trying to be a better listener, trying to be more curious, trying to communicate better. Um, because I would say, like, especially my wife would probably tell you, I got a lot of work to do in that communication box. But um stuff like this is what helps me, honestly, to to grow in that area.
SPEAKER_00You know, think about it, what it would be like to be living every day and not be curious or open to change. I mean, and there's there's unfortunately a lot of people out there who feel that that like I'm on a hamster wheel kind of thing. I mean, when you think about one of my favorite uh holidays is New Year's, uh, because not because of the party and all of that, but because we get a chance to rethink it, to renew, to start over, you know, to, you know, realign our goals with our passions, however you want to frame it, you know, it's a new opportunity. And if we didn't have that, I mean, I don't know. I just think it would be kind of a a boring thing that you know, the year never ends and we never get to start anew.
SPEAKER_01That's a great perspective. And it is exactly what we do at the new year, right? We if it was a great year the year before, we want an even greater one. If it was a bad year, we're glad it's over and ready for this one to be a good one. Um you know, uh in working with the executives, you've you've definitely probably all of the uh people that you've worked with are ambitious then, or they wouldn't be it wouldn't be in that i executive spot. And so are there some struggles that are far more common than people realize? Because outside looking in, that look that's what success looks like. Um but it isn't always success um completely. Maybe maybe financially it's been successful, but it doesn't mean um your definition of success, I'm sure. So what what are what's maybe more common than than we realize?
SPEAKER_00I think, you know, I I'm often heard to say that, you know, I believe we are in one of the most evolutionary periods we have ever seen uh in the history of the human condition ever, ever. It's a very exciting time, but the the the suffering that I see that comes along with this level of excitement, if I can be dramatic enough to use the word suffering, is that people can't keep up. You know, we're we are, you know, I hear this every day, every week, like I just can't keep up. It's too much. Too much is being asked of us every single day with the amount of technology and the opportunities for multiple levels of communication uh in any business now. I mean, it's just impossible to think that you're gonna get to the end of the day and feel good, like you got it all done. So that's one reality that you know I'm finding myself having to work on a lot with leaders to help them be okay with uh not, I don't like the the the phraseology of work-life balance because I don't think it exists, but work-life integration. And then along with that is leaders who, and this this pains me greatly, which is why I say, you know, I work with leaders to be better leaders for themselves, their their businesses as well as their families, is I'm meeting more and more leaders who literally have lost their families due to the business demands. So I'm making all the money, but to keep this machine running is taking everything away from me. And, you know, it it's very hard for me when I have a 50-year-old in front of me saying, you know, I don't, I don't have any connection to my children and I want to have a connection to them. And uh I, you know, I haven't been really involved. And well, when they're teenagers, it's really too late now. I mean, you know, I believe anything is possible, but you've got to really work hard now because you haven't been, you know, and and I'm not making this just about men. It happened, it's happening to women too, because we're we're in the market in a way we've never been before. You know, how do I integrate my family life with this business that I'm scaling? That to me, those two elements of the demands of technology and and what is asked of us on a daily basis, uh, with the idea of, you know, how do I do all of this and still keep my family are to me major, major concerns. And I think we haven't yet begun to see the rippling effect on the family structure. I mean, we're basically losing the family structure. You know, what is that going to look like in the future?
SPEAKER_01You know, that resonates uh a lot with me. I have uh my kids are six and nine. Um, my biggest fear is is exactly what you described of, you know, because of focusing so much on the business, um losing losing them or losing connection with them. Are there any tips in that area that you always give or or what the demands are there, the demands are real. So how how do you help people um get it right?
SPEAKER_00Well, there's many ways, depending on what the issues are, but you know, I work with a lot of high-level entrepreneurs. So certainly in that case, what we know is we hear hear a lot now about the founder syndrome. I'm I was just on a call talking about this very issue is founders, you know, because they were the ones that started it in the back of their car or whatever. And I know you're one of those guys that took something and and and and made it into something far bigger. You know, sometimes it's hard for the founder to get out of the way, and they're the reason the business gets stuck or isn't scaling in the way that it should from a systems perspective. So that's part of it, is we, you know, that's where the strategic planning comes in, is we're looking at where is the founder in this, what systems are broken, you know, where can we delegate more? Because here's the bottom line, Matt, you're building the business for your family.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_00That's why we we're doing it, right? We want our kids to have a better life. But kids, at the end of the game, as I said in a meeting the other day when I was completing a strategic planning process, and I was really addressing it to one of the partners, I said, at the end of the day, nobody's gonna care how many emails you opened every day or how much money you made. You know, so we have to find a way. And so to the second part of that to me uh is to be present with them. I don't think kids necessarily care so much about quantity of time as quality of time, and knowing that when you're with them, you are with them, which means one of the things I hate when I'm traveling, and I see this, it's it's just heartbreaking. You'll see a dad with one or two kids, and he's on his computer, they're at breakfast, and maybe he's divorced, or maybe he let mom sleep in. I don't know, but he's on his computer at breakfast and they're both sitting there bored and they're on their phones. Well, that's that's maybe 45 minutes where you could be present with them and having a conversation with them and learning. Um, like I I literally wrote out a practice for one of my CEOs, literally step by step of how to be with his children at the dinner table. And because he's always on his phone, he hides out on his phone. And so when he came back, he said, Well, they started talking about a uh, you know, some artist, um, some singer that I didn't know who they were talking about. So I got, you know, I just got on my phone. And I said, Well, you missed an opportunity there because you could have asked, you know, why are you why do you like this guy? Well, you know, what is it about him? Can I hear a bit of his music? I mean, there was an opportunity to show that you were interested in something they were interested in. So, so I could go on. And on, but the short answer is presence when you can. So they feel seen and they feel heard. A big part of my work is looking at systems, human systems, whether it's in a company or in a family. And I don't do one or the other. We're looking at the whole thing. And so when we look at family systems, there are very specific principles that make them work or not work. And there's tons of research behind that. And so we look at the order of the system, you know, and there's again a lot of ways that we talk about that. But but basically what it boils down to is everyone, whether it be business or otherwise, they want to know they belong and where they belong.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00And our kids are no different.
SPEAKER_01So what is that you you spoke to a system? Is that something you can talk about?
SPEAKER_00So if you think about, I mean, everything in the world in the universe is a system, right? I mean, we typically as business owners, we focus on um, you know, our co what I call concrete systems, our financial systems, our marketing systems, you know, those kinds of things. But there's a dynamic that exists. You know, the easiest way to think about it is you walk into a meeting and you decide, often at a subconscious level, I'm not going to sit by the CEO. I don't, I don't feel comfortable sitting by her because I don't think she likes me. So you sit at the other end of the room.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00There's an energy. All systems have an energy. And so we we automatically pick up that energy in a system. And then there's rules kind of around that. And some of them are obvious and and and some of them are more, you know, intrinsic. Like we know a kid knows, you know, if I sit at the dinner table and, you know, I'm on my phone or I'm playing with my food, you know, mom's probably going to say something to me. You know, they know these things. So when we look at the order of systems, you know, if it's out of order, it creates tension or chaos in that system. So let's just take the the worst case scenario. You know, mom and dad are drug addicts, and you know, they're zoned out all day. And now this kid is no longer allowed to be a kid.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Now this kid is parenting. We call it parentification. So that throws the system out of order and it throws that kid's internal system out of order because they don't know where they belong. Am I the kid when my dad yells at me? But now my dad's passed out on the couch. Now I'm the parent who's trying to wake him up and make sure that he eats or or whatever. So there's many dynamics around that, that whole thing that we have to look at. And and today it's even more complex because you have blended families, you have different family structures, you know, and and there's just a lot of complexity there. So it's not about making ourselves wrong or feeling bad about it. I mean, I look back on my son's life and do I wish I could take back the the hours on an airplane that I spent, you know, that and I had him here now. Of course, you know, every parent I think looks back and says, I could have done it better or differently. Um, but I think if we can focus and understand that they're in their developmental years, and just because they can walk or talk on their own or drive a car doesn't mean they don't need us. I mean, I recently coached a man who's he who felt like, you know, my my sons are grown. I said, but they're not. They're just getting ready. One just got married, one just had a baby. They need the wife can, you know, there's certain things that the mother can do to a point, but then they need they need mentoring from their father now because they're going into manhood and it's complicated. And one of my great moments was when this same man, he he voxered me on Father's Day and said, I'm a I'm a better father because of you.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's great.
SPEAKER_00That's that's just, you know, that just is everything to me. Because if I'm working with a leader and I can impact him as a human being, he's not only a better leader, as I said, for his people, which is ultimately what I want to see because I've heard too many, you know, met too many wounded people due to bad leadership, but he's also a better father, better spouse, you know, same if it's a woman, a better wife, better significant other, whatever the situation. And that has the potential to impact generations because generational trauma is a very real thing.
SPEAKER_01So it it passes on. So the trauma that I carry affects my children.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yeah, and it comes through, that's why we have to do the work, because it not only comes through the DNA, we now know that from the field of epigenetics, um really, but it comes through in terms of your capacity for parenting. So what we know is the impact of war, for instance, on parenting. You know, if I've been traumatized, I see this particularly in European people that I work with, you know, particularly from World War II. That those that trauma, because it was so intense that comes through from World War II, you know, you have a lot of parents that were absentee emotionally or just plain angry or mean because of what they went through and they never got the help. We didn't know about PTSD, we didn't know about those things till after World War II. So my parenting capacity uh is impacted in a way that I may not be present uh in a way that is best for the nurturing and development of that child. Parenting is a huge responsibility that we don't pay enough attention to. Doesn't come naturally like we want to think it does. If I'm in pain and suffering, um, you know, that's that's where child abuse comes in, right? I don't know how to be a good parent.
SPEAKER_01Interesting because I I think that's the biggest thing in in my head always is I don't know how to do it. I don't know if I'm doing it right. I don't know how to. There's there's even times where like in talking with my kids, I'm not I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say in that in that moment. Um I'm probably overthinking it, but I I really don't think I'm overthinking it because I really don't know if I'm saying or doing the right thing. Um so that's hard to get right.
SPEAKER_00And that's just a given. You know, they that's but again, that's part of their developmental growth. That that you know, they're shifting to another stage, and part of their job is to break away from mom and dad. But what what you know, uh someone I used to know years ago used to say rules without relationship creates rebellion. So, you know, you set the tone, you set the structure in the family, they know the expectations, and then you can't expect to start setting those, you know, when they're teenagers and beyond. You know, if you have the relationship and the connection. I remember one time Michael and I getting in an argument because I wanted him to do something, and he wasn't, you know, up for that. And he, you know, and and I just very calmly looked at him and I said, Look, you know, I understand you want X and I want, you know, Z. But here's what I'm gonna say to you. You know, if I if I allowed that, I wouldn't be a very good mother. You know, my job is to make sure whatever the situation was about. And I'll never forget it because he looked so like shocked, because he was expecting me to fight him on this. And and I took it more upon myself. And then he looked at me and goes, but you're a great mom. And that shifted the whole the whole thing, you know, because well then then I need you to support me in being that mom because what you're asking me to allow, you know, I can't for these reasons. And I think if we're just honest with them and speak from our heart, you know, we tend to often, I think, talk at our kids.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00And we don't listen and, you know, we demand certain things because that that's where the the work gets in the way. We're in a hurry, you know, we're we've got a meeting, we've got to get here, we've got to get there, and we're short, abrupt, you know, and maybe they're not getting ready for school as quickly as we want or whatever, and we don't have the patience. Those are human, you know, things that parents experience, you know. Uh, but I think if we can be honest uh about it with them and and just again, it always goes back to presence. You know, if I can be as present as I can when I'm with them, it's gonna go a long way.
SPEAKER_01That's that's great advice. Uh my my son's nine and he's in this he he he's in this huff and puff stage a little bit. Like he he wants to try to rebel or or um so there's the reaction I'm getting. Um what's the right response? And I guess that's this is putting you on the spot. So I didn't mean to do that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't know. I mean it depends what the huffin' and the puffing is about, but part of it I think is you know, they they as they start maturing, they start thinking, you know, we don't know anything, you know. And I I don't know. I I I know that I did a lot of things wrong. I know I did a lot of things right. I always would say things like if Michael, because Michael was he had more of my fiery personality, and um I would say you have a right to be angry, like that's your right, but you you don't have a right to be disrespectful. That that can't happen, you know. And so I would always try to teach him something uh about the you know, the reason that I was, you know, offering or reprimanding, or uh the other thing that we were very good at, and of course that was because of my son's illness. And when my when Michael was born, we were we were literally told he wouldn't live beyond two.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So we were very big about creating memories because I never knew, you know, is this the last birthday party? Is this the last Christmas kind of thing? And um, that really paid off in the in the long run for us. We have so many memories. We made time regardless. Uh if we had the money or we had the time, we did, we did the thing. Um, but also in his last years, he literally didn't even know us. He was so sick and delirious. But he would talk and he would talk about things we had done as a family. You know, he was in Montreal, he was in Chicago, he was skiing, he was, you know, and and that kind of solidified in our hearts and minds that yeah, we we took the time, you know, to make sure that we did things as a family. And uh we had happy, happy moments. Uh, and that's kind of what I rely on today. When I have a a dark memory rise up, I just can quickly ship shift to something else that I is a is a more pleasant memory.
SPEAKER_01So it sounds like a lot of it is first of all being present, being there, um and then um paying attention and creating happy moments together. I mean it sounds simple, it's not, but but those are some great pieces of advice.
SPEAKER_00Part of why it's not simple is because we don't really know what's going on in their head. Yeah and they don't either. They don't they don't either. So and then they don't want to tell you. So so it's kind of like you know, paying attention to the nuances and what's happening, you know, because there's things happening at school they don't tell you about, you know, maybe a a bullying moment or a boyfriend moment, you know, when we you have a daughter. Yeah, she's uh she's only six, so hopefully the boyfriend thing's far away, but yeah, but it'll it'll get complicated real fast when that that element enters the scene because they're so emotional. And but I mean it's it's just a fun time to you you um lean into it as best you can.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're great. And you're right, they don't necessarily want to tell you. I get my response from my son sometimes is like, why do you want to know? Yeah. Why do you want to know, Dad?
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, if we knew, if we all knew how hard it is to to rear a child, we would probably never have have children. So it's it's it's good that you don't know till you're in it, kind of thing. It's the same with business, right? If you knew how hard it was to start a business and keep it going and and you know, manage and lead all the people, we probably wouldn't do it. But I am one that firmly believes, you know, our our economy lies obviously in businesses. And, you know, our our society it relies on the family structure, in my opinion. So those two elements have to be protected.
SPEAKER_01So where does a person start? Like if they they want to they want to advance, they want to develop, um and they're just not sure what to do next. What how does it how does a person get started?
SPEAKER_00Well, it's a great question. I mean, I think what what's so beautiful about this time, uh, it's the good news, bad news, is that we have so many resources available to us online. You know, the the the so you can do some research, you know, especially now with chat. You know, you can just ask chat, you know, like, you know, I'm feeling this. You know, what do I need? What kind of uh book, what kind of uh podcast, what kind of person can help me? Do I need a therapist? Do I need a coach? You know, and and you build that that languaging with with chat after a while, you know, if you're comfortable doing so, and you'll get a lot of resources right there. What I find with most people though, that I get is the the emptiness is deep enough that they know, you know, I can't do this alone. Um, maybe they've done therapy and they're over that, you know. And I believe there's a time and a place for therapy, but I also believe it can take forever. Um, and it's not always as forward-thinking as as I believe the field could be, which is why I never became a therapist. Um, but but to answer your question in a more practical way, it begins with uh awareness, it begins with learning to self-witness, which is very hard to do on your own without someone guiding you because you don't know what to even look at. But what I teach my clients, for instance, and and anyone could do this if they just figure out how, if they need to do it on their own, is to really watch themselves. And and I'd literally give them practices where they can train themselves to watch themselves in specific scenarios. So I'll give you a quick example that I think I shared a couple weeks ago somewhere, uh, of a woman that um the the CEO brought me in. She was the head of marketing, very smart woman, but she was very um communicative, very dramatic. And because she was in marketing and believed it was her job to protect the brand of the company, she was in everybody's business, in everybody's department. She disrupted every meeting. He'd had four performance reviews with her, and she couldn't change it. He said, I'm just tired. I'm not gonna do this again. If we can't get this resolved, I'm gonna fire her, even though she's the best marketing person we've ever had. Long story short, we did the work. And the first practice I gave her, I mean, I did my intake with her and developed the program. And I I what I sensed, what I felt, was her intensity.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So the first practice I gave her was to just observe herself, not in a meeting room, you know, not in the fire of the day uh with colleagues or or clients, but I said, I want you to notice when you get up in the morning, um, you know, what is it like for you? You know, how do you get up? You know, how do you get ready? How do you get your kids ready? How do you close the refrigerator? How do you, you know, load the dishwasher? I just want you to notice yourself throughout each day and journal. And I gave her specific questions on any aspects of the day where you feel a level of intensity rise up in you.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00And the first week she came back, she's like, Oh my God, I am a train wreck. I get up late. She said, I get up late, I'm yelling at my kids to get out of bed. Then they wake up cranky and frustrated. I'm rushing through the house, I'm slamming doors, I'm throwing cereal on the table. She said, My my whole day starts off like that. That by the time I get to the office, you know, I'm I'm on fire. And that was the beginning of the work.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00You know, and then it gets it gets more complicated from there. But for her to witness herself and see, you know, I'm, you know, I am so intense in every aspect of my life that no wonder. Then later, of course, you're able to start to see, well, how do I how am I showing up in meetings? And it wasn't until we did, you know, maybe two, three weeks' worth of work that it came out that I am the protector of the brand. She came from a military father, a father who was also very intense, who had high demands and high expectations of your every moment, which she was now putting upon everyone else in her life. Now we have something to work with, and we can start to re-engineer how she could show up differently because she was very powerful in her presencing. But I gave her the analogy of uh, you know, you can choose to come into the arena as a Bronco, you know, screaming and bucking, like at a rodeo where you're calling attention to yourself. Or I used to ride horses years ago. You could come in as a Hanoverian horse, which is a dressage horse that comes in with elegance and grace and power, and everyone is in awe and listens and watches because of the majesty of this horse. And she loved that analogy so much that she actually bought a poster of a Hanoverian horse and hung it in her office to remind her that she didn't have to be the bucking bronco. She could be this elegant, you know, powerful uh animal uh and and have grace in her interactions instead of you know chopping everybody's head off throughout the day.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that was a great help for her. You know, the the self-awareness thing is gotta be tough. Like I feel like I'm self-aware, but then I feel like I miss so many things too. So it it must be in coaching people to have it, it's gotta be a tough thing because it seems like I miss it all the time and I think I'm pretty self-aware, and then I all the time face a situation where I wasn't at all.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that's true for most of us. So so like that's why you need someone to hold up the mirror, because I'm trained to see your highest potential in ways that you're gonna miss it, and then I can figure out how to get you to see it as well. Because if you think about it, Matt, what most of us do is we have awareness of where we screwed up that day. You know, I went into a meeting and I said the wrong thing, and I can't believe I did that again. And then I feel bad about it, and there's all this shame and guilt. I vow I'm never gonna let that guy trigger me again in the next meeting. You know, that colleague says something and I say something stupid again, and I go back into the cycle. So the point of awareness is not guilt and shame. The point of awareness is behavioral change. And we have to be grace, you know, we have to give ourselves grace and and just realize it's part of the developmental process. Like when I work with with uh leaders, they often want to get there right away. And I go, no, no. First, the first is to notice. Usually we notice it after the fact and beat ourselves up. Then we start noticing that in the moment, and we may or may not have the the skill to self-correct in the moment, but with enough self-witnessing practice and awareness, now I start to have true developmental shifts where I just don't do those things anymore. You know, I don't fly off the handle in a meeting or, you know, whatever it is. And um, that's that's where you now you start leaning into another way of being, is is how we talk about it. Uh, I'm I'm becoming more than who I was.
SPEAKER_01I think controlling the emotion is maybe the hardest thing. Is that easier for some than others? Because it, you know, if anger or whatever, those are emotions like that, it gets a lot harder when emotion's high.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so that's part of the personality structure. Like I'm working with a guy right now who just has a habit of uh and actually, you know, prides himself on just telling people, you know, where to go kind of thing. And that's his communication style and his personality. And he really had no idea there was another way. You know, he's kind of like a you know, 60s biker kind of guy, you know, that he just, you know, again, he's he that's who he is. And uh when we when we started this, he got it so quickly because he's really smart and he understands now, well, I don't have to communicate like that way. And I've got this bad rep in the company as being this difficult guy. But when I when I use what he calls them Sharon sheets, he has them all around his computer. He said, I read them every day, you know. And he said, and now I'm I'm communicating differently, and he's seeing like I'm getting different results when I'm this guy instead of that guy. But then he comes back to me and says, you know, I feel like I'm not being my authentic self. And I said, Well, you're you're not, because you're in between these two ways of being. We use that language very carefully because we we're we're not saying that your current way is a is bad. It's gotten you to this level of success. But what does it allow for and what is it cutting off uh for you in your life, you know, in terms of your success and your happiness and your relationships. So he's moving into this new way of being, and it doesn't feel right yet because it's it's like the suit doesn't quite fit, you know, he's having he's having to work at it. It's not yet uh a part of him, but it will get there. And and I know this from experience. So I'm like, just hang in there. You're doing the work and you're gonna be good.
SPEAKER_01That's great. You wrote a book uh of several years back uh uh dealing with time and money called the pursuit of time and money I think is the exact title right yes and the concept there what do you think we get wrong about about that pursuit um and what were what do you want to help people understand differently?
SPEAKER_00Well it's a great question I I wrote it because what I was seeing in my clients was they either had a lot of time and no money because they weren't really working to the level that they needed to or they had a lot of money and no time. They just very very rarely have both because of that whole integration thing I was talking about. Yeah it seems like we have to do a bit of a trade-off but you you you have a different thought on it huh well I mean it's it's there's seasons of life you know and sometimes you have to do whatever it takes you know while you're in those seasons but um I was curious to look at how how leaders experience time and money from a developmental perspective because we talk about time we talk about money but we rarely talk about them together and yet we were making a multitude of decisions every day based on those two do I have enough time do I have enough money all day all day we're doing that so I was very curious about that so we we did a you know preliminary research around that and just said you know ask ask basic questions and um what we what we came out with was a spectrum obviously of scarcity to abundance uh that was those were not big news components to us because scarcity is often pretty obvious with respect to time or money people would say things like I never have enough money I never have enough time uh and then abundance you know was equally obvious what was most interesting was the moderate scarcity and moderate abundance and so the way I came to differentiate that Matt was the moderate scarcity individual for instance would be saving I had I had a guy actually say this saving for retirement okay and therefore I can't take my kids to Disney because I'm saving for retirement but retirement's 25 years out where the the moderate abundant guy because the the person who comes from abundance always believes they have enough because they know they can create more my husband's one of those guys he just I'll create it I'll just go get another deal or I'll start another company or whatever. So uh moderate abundance is also being very responsible but it's that that individual is not making fear-based decisions. So they they're both saving for let's say retirement or they're both saving to do what they need to do but one is saving out of fear and one is saving out of a perspective of this is the responsible thing to do. So in the book we looked at I and I it's been so long now I forget the categories but we looked at generosity we looked at uh because those were the themes that came out generosity responsibility stewardship you know how did those different mindsets on that spectrum um think about things like generosity so for instance if I'm coming from scarcity I might donate to this specific cause because I have to I don't want to look bad where somebody who's in an abundant perspective it's just part of what they do uh because they they know I can remember when we were younger and had you know a lot less money if something happened and somebody needed my husband would say well we're gonna give and I go well I don't know we can afford that and he'd say don't worry about it it'll come back to us another way and he would always give but never out of fear where I was more fearful like because I come from poverty right I have a lot of scarcity that lives within me like what if we run out what if we don't have enough for Michael you know that was always my conversation and he's more you know don't worry about it I'll create or we can generate it or we you know we can do whatever we need to do uh to get more there's always there's always enough for him the way he thinks is great but hard to get there from where you're coming from I can see that yeah yeah it's it's still to this day an issue for us in terms of like vacations you know like I can't I don't handle the logistics because I can't wrap my head around what things cost you have the family in the you'll have the family in the motel six would you yeah yeah and and he and he and he's like I'm not staying there Sharon like I'm not staying there so I go well then you have to book the hotels because I can't do it I just can't you know that's that's great so I mean you know part of who we are never leaves us we always revert to you know and and one of the main questions we asked in that research was uh what do you believe about time what do you believe about money and always those beliefs of course come from our parents interesting so um my drive and stuff I think is a little bit of based on the wanting to be the opposite of what my parents were when it comes to money especially so grew up where we didn't have anything and the answer was no a lot of times because we couldn't afford it so I think a lot of my drive comes from not wanting to not wanting to live that way.
SPEAKER_01Now time is something different though for me I've kind of gotten to the point with time where like the list is never done. So I've kind of gotten okay with it and I don't know if that's the right thing either. I have a sense of urgency about everything but I also know like at the end of the day there's going to be 10 things I didn't get to um and yeah and to do what I'm doing I almost have to be okay with that where it I used to feel bad about it but now I almost can't because the list is too big.
SPEAKER_00Right. And that's one of the things I've been driving in in in into my conversations with leaders probably for the last 10 if not more years is you know the days of thinking that we're gonna be done at the end of the day and feel good about it are over. You know, we I think it's what's more important is to think about what are the most important things going back to the old Covey language in the 80s, you know, what are the most important things I have to get done this week. And then you're gonna do a million other things but at least at the end of the week we can feel good and accomplished like I did those, you know, I people freak out when I say this, but I'm like you should not have more than five main priorities for the week. And those are the big important rocks like Covey used to talk about what are those most important things particularly when we're talking about strategic planning the reason it always fails is because we're always doing the other stuff and then when we have time we think we'll get to the strategy work but we never get to it. So if we do those things first and then everything else you know uh starts to happen quite automatically because I'm gonna do those things um you know it it it it gives us a better sense a deeper sense I think of accomplishment and meaning um you know at the end of the week the month the year the quarter you know whatever uh I feel like yeah I did what I set out to do.
SPEAKER_01And is that the strategy work that you do with companies for like strategic planning for a year you help them organize like what the priorities are.
SPEAKER_00Right. I mean that it's everything should link back to the strategy for the year. And then we we even address meetings because that's such a big component today. We restructure the meetings we restructure any systems that need to be restructured but we're looking at it you know for well you do the you know we used to do 20 year strategic planning. That's almost impossible today all you need is a COVID and it's gone we at least seven to 10 years and then you back into what are your milestones for three to five years and then you know annually monthly weekly and then how do we bring the team together cohesively so that we're executing you know the company I just was out in California working with uh one of the moments was so joyful for me. One of the partners said we've we've done this nine times now this is the first time I feel like we really have a strategic plan. Because we tend to yeah it was it was so thrilling for me because you know I've done it for years where you know you go through all the motions and they they don't have a plan to implement it. That that's the the old way we used to do strategic planning as consultants. But now you know I have a structure that is a lot different than that. And it I I because I just got tired of that myself. I want to see them implement and so we can we can do that more effectively with today's tools. And um it's very gratifying to see you know because you they want to grow the company they need to have a a strategy to do that. So I I feel honored to be a part of those conversations and the structure and the systems uh you know uh piece because again that component blends into who I am as a human being if I'm feeling successful in my business or not and also who I am in my in my family and the and you know how I'm showing up for the people I care about.
SPEAKER_01You you must be super rewarded I mean you you get to see people transform companies transform it must be really rewarding for you to see the the help that you give give people and see the difference right in front of your eyes. It's got to be awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah it really is it's it's it my husband would like to see me play golf every day um but it it's not in the cards for me. I just wasn't cut out for that and uh you know it's life is different when you don't have children you know my son was our only child and so I I you know my work is a big part of what is meaningful to me and in that and my husband. So it's very rewarding work and it's hard work because you know transformation is is is never easy. But what I love most about it is that when I can teach people the process whether it's strategic planning for the company or transformational growth for them as individuals you know once they they get it you know they don't need me anymore. And that that's kind of my goal is you know for you not to need me anymore. And for you to not to keep us coming back well I mean you know there's a certain amount of work I had a I had a client box me this morning that I worked with like two years ago and she just wanted to touch base and said she was thinking of me and wanted me to know she moved and how her business was doing. And you know I love hearing you know that the growth has continued uh and if they get stuck they come back you know but but I really want people to see themselves through my eyes of their highest potential and also to get a a deep sense of where they belong because I've really come to the conclusion that that's where our greatest pain and suffering is is not knowing where we belong. And if we don't know this is important for families and parents if we if a child doesn't know where they belong in their initial family system they don't know where they belong anywhere.
SPEAKER_01But that with all the broken families today that's got to be really tough then yeah yeah you know um I I spoke about how rewarding what you're you're doing can be what about the the tougher side of it which probably looks like telling me what I don't want to hear so like it's obvious to you what's wrong with me and you gotta tell me um is that easy for you to do or um because I probably might not like it at first maybe no it's it's easier when I've got more skill I've gotten more skilled at it. Okay.
SPEAKER_00But I think the reason it's easier and and um my clients are able to hear it is you know I'm not coming in with both guns blazing out of the box saying you know here's what's wrong with doing you need to fix it. Again we use way of way of being and I say this is your way and these are all the great things but then here's where it you know usually when I deliver that first program people literally get very emotional and sometimes weep because they feel seen is what they'll tell me.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00I can't believe you saw that. And then from there anything beyond that I have to offer I I think it it seems to land well because I'm not coming from judgment. I'm coming from observation and a desire in a heart for you to be your best self. And that's how they hear it. That's how they receive it um you know I'm sure I don't always do it perfectly but I'm also the it it it weighs on me a lot like when I have something real like I've got one coming up tomorrow actually where I have to bring another level I have to take it to another level.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00And um I think about it a lot. You know I pray on it I meditate on it you know I I think about what's the best way to deliver this information so that he can receive it and and we can move forward with another level of growth and and it doesn't you know back him up kind of thing. And that's just I'm I'm I'm old I've been in the field a long time I've learned the hard way I guess how to how to deliver the hard stuff. But it's always coming from a place of I see more in you and this is what's possible. So let's work together to get you there.
SPEAKER_01Oh that's great. For those listening or or watching um that want to continue to learn from you where can they where could they find you?
SPEAKER_00Obviously sharenspanno.com okay and then we will have um when you when your podcast releases we will have a separate page there I have an assessment on there called the leader's edge which takes the 12 stages of development which it's very complicated but we've focused on six of them and created a user friendly quiz there that will give you some preliminary understanding of where you fall what we call the center of gravity because we're never one place all the time but where are you most of the time okay and so that will be available on on and it'll be um and on my website you know under podcast appearances but it'll be a a specific page uh to to you to your podcast.
SPEAKER_01And I can go on there take that test and get some answers about myself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah you can and then if you want to talk more just set up a call and we can always you know talk about it whatever you need.
SPEAKER_01That's great.
SPEAKER_00You know um we're all about championing people and so before we let you go if I were to ask you someone in your life past or present that you would like to champion right now who would that be and why wow that's a tough one my son yeah the why because um oh why you're gonna get me emotional now being disabled my son was one of the most courageous young men I've ever known and um his legacy still lives on we have a golf tournament actually it's coming up next week or next month we do a golf tournament every year to raise money for persons with disabilities we raise about a hundred thousand a year and um we we support many different things like we buy you know accessible vans for a family you know if they need one but mainly we support an art program. It was a vision that my son had and it's now I I I started it thinking it was going to serve eight or 10 people that the team is now totally independent. We we fund them along with some other players but we serve over 120 people five days a week and these are people with developmental disabilities that would be home alone doing nothing and probably in depression and uh they have a community and a life and they do theater and computers and painting and sculpture and cooking classes and all these things. And um I think my son, you know, his he lives on through that legacy of of the lives that are that are being changed not only through this one entity, but even in our golfers that come every year. And we have 92 golfers that now have a different understanding of what it's like to be disabled or to have a child with a disability. So my son has just not only changed our lives but he's he continues uh to change the lives of others and and particularly I think the people that experience his story uh value their own children in a different way because of him.
SPEAKER_01Oh amazing thanks for being a little bit vulnerable and sharing that with us.
SPEAKER_00Well thank you Matt I really enjoyed our conversation I hope it's useful to your audience and um I look forward to staying connected.
SPEAKER_01I hope so too it's really helpful and informative to me so hope it is for them as well. Thanks so much.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_01I hope you enjoyed this conversation if you want more podcast in your life which of course you do make sure to like follow and subscribe to us on YouTube, Apple Podcasts Spotify or wherever you get your podcast catch you next time