Kinship with the More-than-human

What is it like to be in relationship with a mountain, or with a grasshopper? This first episode of the World Ethic Forum podcast explores kinship with the more-than-human. We go back to childhood memories, picking cherries and talking with a tree, to trace a connection that was never lost, only silenced, waiting to be nurtured again. And we find that by returning to it, together, we expand our capacity to hold the intensity of our times. This is the first episode in a six-part series with World Ethic Forum co-leads Luea Ritter and Anaïs Sägesser, on cultivating a culture of care and kinship. 

Show Notes 

• Blogpost: Co-creating a Culture of Care and Kinship https://www.worldethicforum.com/co-creating-a-culture-of-care-and-kinship-our-learning-journey/
• Blogpost: Beyond Cosmological Narcissism https://www.worldethicforum.com/beyond-cosmological-narcissism-thinking-with-rivers-dancing-with-mountains-making-ourselves-eatable/
• Blogpost: Methods for Embodied Connection:  https://www.worldethicforum.com/methods-for-embodied-connection-exploring-somatic-approaches-for-futures-of-radically-shared-aliveness/

Transcript

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Speaker 0:01

What is it like to be in relationship with a mountain? Or with a grass hopper? This first episode of the World Ethic Forum podcast explores kinship with the more-than-human. We go back to childhood memories. Picking cherries. Talking with a tree. That connection was never lost, only silenced. Waiting to be nurtured again.

Speaker 0:01

  Hello! You're listening to the World Ethic Forum podcast. I'm Julien. And I'm your host today.This podcast is exploring what we call a culture of care and kinship. That's a way of being in the world where humans feel and act as part of the web of life. We’re not offering chewed up and pre-digested wisdom. Instead, we’re sha ring with you what a live inquiry into radically shared aliveness might feel like. Fair warning: some of what you will hear might feel strange, or inconclusive. That's all by design. We're here to loosen something. In ourselves, and maybe between us. Because then, maybe something else can emerge: new types of relationships, new questions, and new directions.So, welcome. And thank you for joining us on this inquiry.

Speaker 0:01

Fantastic, welcome. Look, it's wonderful to be with you, Anais and Luea. And we'll be talking about building a culture of care and kinship. I'd like to begin from the beginning. And I'm wondering if you could share for each of you, like what were some early seeds of care or seeds of kinship in your life? What did that look like?

Speaker 1 0:27

First of all, it's a joy to be here, Anais and Julien. Thank you for making, yeah, creating this space together. I guess what comes up when you ask this question is just my memories of being with my extended family out in nature, plucking the harvest of orchard of my grandfather. But then not just harvesting, but then actually a whole procedure over days to put the cherries in glasses, um, making marmalades, taking out the stones, drying them, and just being in both in playfulness but also in gratitude for what that allows for preparing for the winter time. And then also, of course, ensuring in that that you don't waste things, that you try to from each one of the things, even the things that you take out, you would create another, by way of speaking, product from it. Um so that cycle of nothing is seen as waste, but all is seen as something to care for, something to to be grateful for, something to celebrate. Um yeah, that's the first thing that comes up actually, surprisingly.

Speaker 1:56

It's beautiful.

Speaker 2 1:57

Yes, so also joyful to be here and with the two of you, Julien and Luea. What came up now when I was listening to Luea speaking um was how as children we used to play outdoors a lot, and there were different trees, and these trees they were uh very important, and so there was a there were five maple trees, and they were very distinct for us. We had like given you know for us they had different characteristics and we were climbing in different um in different moods, and there was also this very big uh uh cherry tree. We used to spend hours and hours sitting in that tree making up stories, and in the stories, you know, the tree itself also played a big role, so it was integrated uh as just one of us, as one of the actors within that imaginary, you know, role play that we had, and also had a very you know distinct, you could say, almost personality, although, of course, you know, we didn't assign a personality, but it was more like how the how this cherry tree showed herself to us, and also full of um of blossoms and spring, full of you know, then the cherries that you could pick, and it was the sour ones that kind of you know, they have this this slightly acid taste, and you're in between like really it's exciting to to taste one, and you're not so sure whether you actually like it. This is like the first the first image and memory that came up, like just the importance of trees in my childhood and with my sister.

Speaker 4:03

I love that I asked a question about kinship and both of you uh mentioned cherry trees. The thing I'm wondering is how does that how do these early memories of kinship as a relationship to fruits or to trees or family relationships that are connected to nature, how has that then informed the rest of the work that you've been doing around this theme of building a culture of care and kinship?

Speaker 2 4:35

So I think one layer was that I got from these experiences and memories and really embodied experiences, like they're like cellular memories, literally, but a deep knowing of the embeddedness and the belonging also of me within a wider kind of cycle, um both with uh the natural world more than human, um but also the importance of family ties, let's say, um, and the belonging to land, which is very strong. But then also seeing that in the contrast when when I was with my you know parents and my brother living in our apartment close to the city, that was very delicate and was um not felt as much as when I was with my grandparents on on the land in the orchard at the farm, and feeling the the ruptures of you could call it more urban or suburban environments, and that discrepance between feeling fully embedded and part of a reciprocity, and also then, of course, what that brings as you know what's what's my role and what my actions have as impact or influence, let's say, and then seeing growing up in a society where a lot of that is already somehow fractured or put in question or feeling often isolated having grown up in this uh more apartment environment. And from there, um I guess a deep calling of how do we ensure to to not lose that I wouldn't only call it heritage, but that legacy in a way that we that we stand on, and also how to reweave healthy relationships not only as humans but also with our modern human environments. So I guess both feeling the the joy and the beauty and the power of it, and then also seeing the decline in smaller and larger ways. So for me, it was really this um that these memories which I just shared before, also of you know being outdoors a lot with my my sister and um the our kins, the trees, and many, many more beings. They're very precious, but they were um over the years they were buried deeply. I went through a phase where I studied business, where I went into management consultancy, where I was traveling a lot, where I had this point where I felt actually completely disconnected, disconnected also from my own body, and really also from the beings kind of um around me, especially the more than human beings. And when I realized it was all it was a lengthy process of going back to really re-enliving, re-embodying that connection and reactivating it. So, in a way, kind of um having, you know, not completely, but in my consciousness, lost uh the connection at some at some point, or the awareness of the connection at one point, uh, is surely something also which informs my work now and and which makes me or has made me aware of this importance, and also in a way, how in today's world, in stressful work environments, in uh consumerist society that is very materialistically informed, um, how easy in a way it is to lose one's own awareness of connection, and then how precious it is to come back or to be able to come back to memory.

Speaker 9:19

You know, there's something that comes to me when I hear you speak, which is a deep sense of hope. And I think that comes from a sense that I might have, or I might have picked up when speaking about regenerative work uh or the polycrisis, the state of society, that it's something that is very deeply ingrained, and that whatever is different is kind of long lost, it's in a distant past. But here I hear you describing this lived, like really rich lived connection with family and with nature that is not all that long ago, that's really within our lifetimes, within our childhood. And paradoxically, I can I can feel with you, I have also these memories of time kind of digging out licorice root with my with my uncle down in the south of France, and how those memories are not that far, and therefore there is something that is still graspable, and of course it's fragile, and of course we sense the risk of loss, but also it's there, not quite far. And uh yeah, it's extraordinary to hear you talk about it this way. And I wonder if it's something that you share as well, like coming back to those memories. Yes, it's there, it's just there, it's not far what we're trying to do.

Speaker 2 10:32

Yes, I think this is something really important, this feeling of hey, it's not far. And for me, this is actually something which I also invite other people to join experiences. Um and usually these experiences are very simple, you know, of just going um outdoors or even indoors and and and just really uh opening up all our senses, be it you know, our our visual sense, our our sense of touching, also of smell and of hearing, and just noticing what is there. And one invitation that I sometimes give is then to just you know enter into contact with you know whatever shows up for you or whatever is in front of you. Maybe it's a pot plant, maybe it's this little fly or the mosquito in your room, or the spider, or maybe you're outdoors and and you see an aunt, or you see um, you know, the grass moving or whatever, and to go into an inquiry and really go forward with this question of who are you that I am also, and who am I that you are too? And in a way, you know, weave kinship together. And it sounds so simple, and the thing is, it actually is, it is simple because it's you know, and and science tells us, of course, we are interconnected. It's you know, the air that we breathe um becomes the oxygen, you know, comes from the trees and plants, and then we exhale it and it goes back, and it's all a cycle. So, you know, natural sciences are actually confirming what we each can also sense is true. This inter and interconnectedness that we can experience every single moment.

Speaker 1 12:41

I guess the hope that you spoke to is for me um is in a way very critical. I sometimes don't think we sh I I struggle with the word hope because it sometimes is is then somehow the other side of hopelessness. I more use the word trust in in that interconnectedness, and for me it's actually that in itself to cultivate that is essential because it's almost the resource that then allows me at least as an individual to be able to witness the intensities that we live today. And I know my system will not be resourced enough, literally, to go into abysses or at least to look into abysses, if I don't feel somewhere a certain solidity and groundedness and to know that I'm intrinsically part of a wider something, being it my lineage, being it the land, being it the air we breathe, the waters, the memories that are sitting in my bodies. And it's not just romanticizing and sugarcoating everything as beautiful, like there are also memories that are tough, but to know it is real and it is it is it is not just imaginary, and to cultivate that as a resource to then meet whatever struggles we we may focus with our work on and acknowledge the high entanglement of all these things for me is uh almost a precondition to cultivate that, um, being it through ways that Anais just shared, as as you could say, practices and exercises, or by the way, I take care of my own well-being as a as an equal important precondition of you know, how am I kinning with my own multiple you know parts, being it physical, emotional, etc.?

Speaker 14:55

So we have this sense of like accessibility of this connection by the world that is just there, but this intentional effort to uh to go and make that connection and feel this circularity and this depth of lineage. How does that then translate into the way that we can relate as humans to each other? What does that look like? Maybe starting with the relationship that the two of you are building uh as part of the work that you're doing. I wonder if uh you you might talk to that.

Speaker 1 15:29

Well, first of all, I think it's the acknowledgement that relationships are an unfolding and there is maybe a spark or a moment that that kind of triggers something or allows something, not triggers, allows something. But where you can hear the whisper like, ah, here is something, here's something that could come into being, that you we could call it potential, or ah, here is an alignment, or ah, here is another aspect I have not given so much attention to. And I think the story between Anais and I reaches now back prior even to the World Ethic Forum, um, of just a recognition of there is something that we hold dearly in common, and also acknowledging we come from slightly different, you know, backgrounds, very similar when you zoom out, but different enough that it feels there are some complementary aspects that we highlight through our uniquenesses. And I think to then really look for what is our shared common ground and shared language, as well as where do we each bring a difference or an um an additional focus or an additional capacity, also, that then starts to, for me at least, makes the fabric rich.

Speaker 2 16:59

Yes, and for me, our way of working together is also a beautiful example that you don't need to have spent you know a whole lifetime together before or have been close friends before to actually be working together and contributing towards uh a shared you know vision or a shared, I would actually even call it inquiry as well, and of course, knowing that we are embedded in a much larger field, and that the importance is to bring in these voices, all these voices that you know are interweaving with us, and that are uh building this wider field and co-holding it and continuously reminding one another of listening carefully, of tending to, of you know, not letting go of a thread that maybe has gotten a bit thinner over time, but to ah go there and see, does it need mending? Does it need to be rewoven? Does it need to be cut? What is there that is really um asking for our joint attention and the attention beyond?

Speaker 18:29

So you're talking about this field that you belong to. I'd love for you to give me a rapid sketch or a sense of what are some of those voices, what may be some of the colors, some of the tunes, some of the qualities of the voices that you're hearing around you in this field.

Speaker 2 18:46

So these voices are very different ones. The first image really that literally comes to my mind is the grasshopper. I remember we were sitting together, I think it was during uh a breakfast uh with other World Ethic Forum firekeepers, actually, the the hosting team for the in-person gathering that we held last year outside of Zurich. And suddenly, you know, we were talking about oh, you know, now this next session coming up, how exactly should we, you know, go about it? How brave should we be? And there comes this grasshopper and shows up, you know, and you know, grasshoppers, they take big jumps. And we all suddenly, you know, looked at the grasshopper and were just saying, okay, maybe we're we're invited now to take you know a big leap of faith, to to take the big jump and go kind of into a risk of of dropping into a deeper level of opening up conversations. So the voices are you know very manifold and come in different colors, and it's just this green jumpy voice that came up first for me. And I'm sure now Luea can tell you a lot of more voices that she's also uh perceiving and that are important.

Speaker 1 20:18

Yeah, thank you very much. I I have a vivid memory of that right now. Um I want, of course, to acknowledge the multiple threads that are woven in the World Ethic Forum on purpose, with just even, I mean, not just even, but with the fire keeper circles, and where very purposefully we invite, I wouldn't say yet a huge range of diversity, but a higher diversity of backgrounds, skill sets, disciplines, cultures, then normally meet intentionally in in such convenings and and processes, inquiry processes. And everyone acknowledging that so the first few years we gathered in person in Pontresina, which is in the high mountains in the Alps in Switzerland, and the glacier there that we could even see from the room is a glacier I have been since I'm a small child, visiting on on a very regular basis, and I saw it personally, declining, retreating. And to know that everyone in the room, in their own ways and forms, and informed also by their backgrounds and worldviews, cosmologies, were in relationship intimately with that glacier, and not seeing it as a oh, that's a beautiful scenery to look at, or then me looking at it and like feeling. The pain and the sorrow and the grief of it having been retreating so far in my own lifetime so far. But also seeing it as a source of teaching and a source of information. Both what is it letting go, what is it helping us remember and helping us actually stand up for? And how do we also a voice that also helps us like how do we then grieve for the parts that are clearly in decline and in extinction and have already been extinct or under how do you say can no longer be turned back by way of speaking, where you can just put the pause bottom and say rewind? And so voices that are not just comfortable or encouraging, but they are like, how do you how how do I, how do we not just look back or then get lost in the intensity and in the the ocean of emotions, memories, feelings that that are coming up, or then the dynamics that may come up between us, um of like, you know, why did that come so far? Um and transcending the shame, guilt, blame, or then the paralysation of not anymore knowing what what we can now in this very particular moment do. And then saying we we build a relationship with these aspects equally, as much as we build relationship with ourselves and each other, not to cocoon us off from the world, but as a as an active contribution to a world in in big transition.

Speaker 23:57

There's a thing in what both of you are describing that I that I recognize, and that also makes me uh curious to understand more. It's this these moments when we feel a sort of a collective heightened attention almost. It's this magical moment when we are waiting for something and the grasshopper arrives, and not only does it arrive, but everyone says, This means something, or we're together looking at the mountain, we notice something about the glacier, and we say, This means something, this kind of moment of shared arousal of meaning. Um, and I've I've experienced this. I guess a lot of people have experienced that. The the thing that I wonder is how how can we experience that more? Is there something in your experience that we can do so that we're more likely to be in that state? Or what is it that brings about this state of collective heightened capacity to be attuned to this thing magically emerging or in the field? What are the insights that you've uh that you might have gathered?

Speaker 2 25:10

For me, and and I think uh we will speak to it also a bit more. It is one thing is is to even allow ourselves to be attentive to it. So when we now I spoke of the grasshopper, we spoke of the glacier. Often or in in in many contexts, you know, such a moment might be dear, but we don't maybe dare to speak to it, or we don't even believe that the others are noticing it as well. And for example, me recently we had a lot of conversation about what does it mean to bring in the more than human? And you know, there can be attempts of um and we we do that as well, of putting an empty chair, you know, into a circle and saying, well, this is for the more than human. But now what we can do is we can you know have this as a reminder, as an active reminder, and then wait in a way, or actually it's not a waiting, it's it's it's more a state of being attentive of when it shows itself, or she or he or they um show themselves, and being attentive to the wasp that is you know caught in the room, being attentive to the breeze of wind that is being felt across the skin of everyone. And without going into an artificial kind of let's now all you know watch out for this moment these moments, um, at the same time co-create an atmosphere and and the space where it can be acknowledged when it happens. Um also it doesn't have to be, I think it's a delicate balance between you know this actively seeking for this moment. Oh, now did you see as well there was this, right? What might that might that mean for us right now? Um, and then over-interpreting, and in a way, again, you know, coming very much from the head to versus oh, you know, more moment actually of awe. Being in awe of what is just being collectively felt and sensed. So yes, to me it's really about this deep listening opening, but not seeking actively for it.

Speaker 1 28:08

I actually um when you posed the question, Julien, I could feel how I stumble over the word um heightened state or something you said, because for me it's actually the other way around. Like, how can I release and come back to my natural state of being of tending to different signals of information, and that may be in the breeze of the wind, that may be in a grasshopper, but it can also be different things that then together form a picture, and it's not that singular one speaking to me right now because I matter. Also, that like how much do we sorry? I might jump a little bit around. Uh, it doesn't feel like very clear in my mind, but again, if I build this relationship, it could also feel like oh the the grasshopper spoke to me. Uh and and it can have a very beautiful, deep almost spiritual meaning, and it can also have a very egoistic, you know, like oh now I have a relationship with this with this particular. And for me, I feel there are so many delicate lines as Anois said, and I I of course uh I I recognize many of them in me all the time, of how to not kind of project something onto something that happened, but also not close myself off from it or pretend that it doesn't mean anything. But take every offer and as a as a gift or as a potential way of experiencing a certain moment or situation, and I feel often when I can be in this wide, soft gaze of seeing ah the glacier can bring something as well as the people who are in the room, as well as the building, as well as my maybe belly speaking to me at the moment, or my somatic experience, you know, or my thoughts, equally important, and they all together form an by way of speaking, an image or a mosaic that then informs me. Then I feel I come closer to that relational thing than instead of um one channel on the other. But that means, of course, that I cultivate in me an ability to almost track different signals at the same time without you know saying this has more importance than that. Maybe at some moments I can feel this has more weight in the whole picture than something else. But um cultivating actually picking up on different by way of speaking channels or to different senses at the same time that then together form by way of speaking one image or one clarity that arises.

Speaker 2 31:38

I think you're beautifully actually also speaking to the wider ways of knowing, right? And and it's something which really informs our work, and which I think it's great to also bring it up here, um, because it's what what we both uh have the experience of, and I mean, of course, many, many, many people do, is that there are many different ways of creating knowledge about something. And so one is our you know direct sense uh sensory experiences through the so as we call it the five senses, another one is the inner images, it's the gut feeling, it's our dreams, it's these encounters that randomly happen. So um, what we aim to do is to bring that to integrate these different ways of knowing or to bring them into coherence and to sense make out of that. And one is to individually do it, and the other thing is then to collectively go into such a process, where I think maybe the a bit unusual thing that we do in our processes is that we allow for different ways of knowing to enter the circle and to come in in a collective space, not just individually, but really collectively.

Speaker 33:08

There's a thing when I hear both of you talk, there's an interesting tension that is beginning to emerge for me and that I'm actually really curious about, which is I at the beginning of our talk, it seemed like what we were talking about was this simple act of remembering. Let's just return to our childhood, let's be back to the cherry tree, let's just pay attention to the grasshopper. And there was this kind of simplicity and uh sort of an implicit story that I heard myself tell in my own head of society has corrupted us, and if if we could just shake it off and just return to who we were when we're simple beings, everything would be great. But then as I hear you more, there is something else that is apparent, which is an extremely complex way of handling knowledge and information and data, and perceiving everything on multiple layers at the same time, hearing signals while being attuned to the body and other people, and something that is just incredibly sophisticated, not just uh, or maybe it's it's probably extremely sophisticated to be on the cherry tree uh as well. But I I I'm wondering if you could speak to this, to this tension between the simple remembering and the high level of complexity of that knowledge we were trying to understand and build.

Speaker 1 34:32

I think there's this beautiful paradox, and thank you for pointing it out. Because my memories, they sound simple, and they are, but it is only having an understanding how densely some this fabric is woven, and the the dependencies and the interdependencies and the interbeingness, then brought in such a clarity that it again feels simple, but actually it isn't. I feel often we kind of there's really this difference for me between complicating it through our thoughts and our analysis, and in the experience itself, it is actually very simple. So it's it's it is very simple, but if we have to re find that simplicity, and that in a way, simplicity not understood as yet just simple and random, but that like almost like a laser sharp, like you know, when when all the colors in a prism then actually become white, it's just white, right? But if you actually look at it, it is made out of so many colors, or it is so dense on a laser sharp something that has so much power, but it is made of so many things at the same time. Um, and for me, I think a lot of the things is these days like first of all, acknowledge it's complex and multi-layered and so densely woven, we will never ever have a full understanding. But if I really allow it and surrender to that fact, then it becomes again very simple and to the point. But to get to that, I mean it's like mastery. Once you have once I can I know how to bike, how to sit on a bike, it feels very normal. But how to get there to find the right balance is like it feels very complex. It's not complicated, it's complex. How all these different things play together, or how to drive a car once you know how to do it, it is sounding simple. So for me, it has yeah, sorry, it sounds like a simple analogy, but uh and zooming out and seeing where we at least in the West, or what we call the West, have come from. There is a long, there is a long journey to to re find and reweave that way of simply knowing while at the same time also being in a very yeah mature place where we are not just playing with it because it's nice, but because we have a and we have a responsibility, and and in our work we talk often about the stewardship, something is given into our custody, into our care. And with that comes, you could feel the burden of a responsibility, but the humility of it. But also that calling for yeah, daring to step in that mastery of how do we reweave these different ways of knowing uh again into one simple action that seems simple from the outside, but actually is densely woven.

Speaker 38:15

So you speak about this mastery. It's uh I I love the the use of the word. What's the what is it about this mastery that's particularly hard to achieve? What's what are the points where in your experience you've seen or you've felt the most resistance?

Speaker 2 38:33

I would maybe answer that with you know, there's certain societal structures and patterns that kind of keep us us going to a default behavior, which is in a a certain way, or um so when I and I also work you know scientifically, so um in or we both do, and it's in in the air, there's only very recent phenomena, I would say, and only within certain disciplines still, that for example, you speak about where you come from, your positionality, or that you could um say, well, this research question came to me in a dream, you know, or as probably it does for many, it came to me in the shower, and then I looked at, you know, kind of looking as there are a gap in research, and then I made it, you know, sound like it's it's it's really highly um analytical how I came up with this question. But so I think you know, there are, and and this is just one field, but there are also uh you know other societal contexts, uh, like in also, you know, very often in working environments, you don't say, or even in politics, you don't say it came to me in my dream, you know, and this is how it should be, or I had this vision, but there are ways to talk about certain things in in specific contexts, and as soon as you go beyond that, it is um you risk of losing the relationship with the people who are used to you know uh being talked to in a certain way, so it is really then this underlying relational work and maintaining that and being very um very sensitive to the way that you phrase something, to the way that you put it into words, to the way that you're integrating and to what you disclose where of where which way of knowing actually came to you and how you integrate that. I think this is for me one part uh in a way of mastery. And mastery, you know, in other contexts, mastery means simply that you've been doing it for a long time. So also here, mastery doesn't mean it's it's it's difficult. I would say it in a similar way as Lia, you know, it's complex, you need to learn it, but then it's easy. Uh but mastery means for me that you gain experiences experience with actually you know allowing yourself to know through very different ways and put that into words and bring it into different contexts, um, without this um, I would say, structural or contextual censorship we often apply, because I would say very often we are our own strongest senses, even more so, even than the society around us, because we anticipate, you know, how things will be heard or received or how others might react. And when we in a way take the courage, um we very often realize oh well there are ways, you know, coming back uh to to experience in scientific contexts, there are ways to integrate it. You just need to look how to phrase it. There are ways to integrate it in professional context, there are ways, but um they might not be so so uh visible or or or clear at first, but it's a way of of probing, of seeking, of experimenting, of looking at what response we get.

Speaker 1 42:58

I guess there is um two other thoughts that come up, building on that. Is one master is not a finite destination, but it's an ongoing state of deepening and widening and keep being in a learner somehow. Um but then also feeling I gain, like Anay said, further knowledge. Um the other part is that what I find it difficult often is I still have only a certain perspective, um, a certain angle, and especially in the context of the World Ethic Forum, where we bring together a large diversity of people and backgrounds and cultures on purpose to expose also the the gaps and the abyss uh and deeper layers of fractures in that relational. Fabric not only within oneself or one culture but across culture. I also can feel in me a hesitance if I say that if I would own that I see it in this way, would I maybe unintentionally step on someone's pain point or trigger something that I was not aware of or um activate something that hasn't been given light yet together? Um so also that sensitivity, and it's not just a question of which word am I using, also. So it's the language piece, the articulation piece, but it's also I know my context and I know my background, and I know the you know the experiences I was exposed to, and and I would say I had many, and there's still a lot of things that I am not sensitized yet enough. Um, and how to ensure that with my way of showing up, the way of how I bring these wider ways of knowing together that they are in in some form or way in alignment or at least in communication with how other people experience and where they come from and where they're literally also conditioned. I mean, I'm totally conditioned, like Anais said, we are often our own biggest sensor, and that is structural, that is societal, that is personal, etc. And how do we then from this acknowledgement and us all having and continually doing this re-weaving, do we then also meet both as individuals with these wider ways of knowing, but also sensitive enough around the delicacy, because I think one of the big harms that happened in the last centuries is around this cutting off, or trying at least to cut off different ways of knowing and and kind of pretending one way of knowing, one way of doing is better than the other. And so we tap right into, I would call that a collective wound or even a collective trauma that we are all informed and conditioned by in different forms, of course. Um and so there lies a lot of sensitivity around how to even speak about it, what are the metaphors we use, what are the practices we call upon, how do we translate from one context to the other? How do we stay alert, sensitive on what may trigger even trauma responses in me or in a relationship to someone else, or even within a group? And how is grief again, going back to that topic, also part of that whole re-weaving?

Speaker 47:15

There's a word that I was reflecting on that you used, Luea, before, that came up when I were talking about uh mastery, which is the word the word trust. It's as if what I'm beginning to hear now is that this this building of this culture of care and kinship, it's an effort at reconnecting with reality, not reality as the the discourse that has been constructed, but the very rich fabric of life that is the other people and the living world and the more than human and everything that is happening, but also this this trust in reality to lean into it and be connected to it, and this trust as well in the flow of what we do, of saying, now I say this, now I do this, now in this reality, this is where attention must go. And this kind of sense I I I felt it, and I imagine that you would have as well in in certain collective settings when we're listening, we're listening, and there's something that felt this is what people seem to be talking about, but nobody is bringing it up. And this word comes up or this gesture comes up, and there's a hesitation. Should I say that or not? Should I say that or not? And then it's said and it turns the conversation somewhere. Uh and it's this trust that comes with a long time that is not repeating the discourse that is there, but being really connected with what is happening in the moment. And it's terrifying because then it's alive and then it's not in our control, and it's not the script that's playing itself, it's something new and big and not us. Uh and yeah, I'm hearing that as well in what you're in what you're describing. And there's a thing that I'd love to to hear more of in relation to that is what are some other moments in the World Ethic Forum where that kind of manifested, where you were like, that's it. Now we're real now. We're with reality. Now this is kinship. Now I'm feeling it. Could you share a few a few of those stories or moments when this suddenly manifested?

Speaker 2 49:18

I will share one very intense moment that we had around uh grief. But before I go into that, I just want to also say that you know it it for me it is not that it's an objective reality there that comes into play, but really this acknowledgement that reality is always also subjective, and that the reality is what we collectively give attention to, and there's also like the power that we really have to construct uh reality, and and to kind of by jointly giving attention to something, something which is you know, maybe it's happening anyhow, but maybe it's also happening in a different way when we actually put our attention to it. So for me that that is actually also very um very important uh in that context. And at one moment we gave a big uh a big collective attention to grief. So we were gathering the circle, and there was this moment where grief about what is yet there to be lost came up very strongly. Um first among one of our firekeepers who shared a very personal story about a loss that we are all facing or have already faced the loss of a dear person, because of course, you know, our lives um are all ending, and the lives of all the people around us are also ending, but very often we just tend to ignore that, and we tend to ignore um also the that for for each person who is dear or close to us, that well, at least if we live longer than them, we will grieve for them, and we don't know when that moment will come. And so, in a way, it's it's something which is just even ontologically part of you know human life, but it's usually not given space, especially not collectively. And there was uh this moment or this moment, this moment is not it's not just a singular moment, but it's kind of a space that opened through having someone within the collective stepping into grief, and this then being co-held by the others, and kind of the whole process of whatever was going on before, um, having collectively the space to allowing that to in a way pause for a moment, and pause to give something else which is also there and which is actually there all the time. But usually it's just we leave it to be unseen, unspoken, unheard. To bring that to into our collective consciousness and to bring that into to pick up the word that you used before, the jointly experienced reality. Um for me that was really, or to me that was a moment where this um collective all um of life, um, this now I call it magic, um, but of course it's not the magic in the sense of someone doing magic, but it's in the sense of a collective experience, which is out of what we experience maybe every day or in our usual settings. So this magic occurred there.

Speaker 1 54:02

And I guess building or weaving from there that that could occur is what you say needs a lot of trust, and to get to that level that I know I can expose myself so fully with something that is even maybe not just off mine but working through me into our collective space. But I may be the best, you know, recipient and sender uh or vessel or channel or whatever metaphor we want to take, conduit, but that requires a lot of having rewoven relationality across, um to even get to that moment where we can drop into that suspense and allowing something that is always there, or or kind of wants to be getting known to really allow that to come true. So for me, these are um testimonies of how deep a group or a relationship or whatever process has already matured over time. Um and of course, that then if well if well s navigated together deepens then, of course, also again more trust that we actually can stay there, can stay present, can can meet it with all the discomfort that it brings, the delicacy, the vulnerabilities, the pains, the memories, the and the messiness, also, of course. So um, but that's almost like a symptom rather than the um or the product or the outcome or maybe even the side effect from that dedication of of reweaving and being learners together and expanding together through the diverse forms and perspectives that we bring together that may have friction, that may have paradoxes, that may actually even um bring more stuff up than we like.

Speaker 56:34

It's this beautiful paradox that I'm that I'm hearing that thing there are things that are there that are outside of us, but by paying attention to them and building relationship with them, we also we bring them we bring them to be in a different way, as if we were like by by trusting in our mastery to see, detect, name, relate with what is happening. We we create new realities or we create a world around us. Uh and it's a an incredible amount of responsibility to do that. It's very, very heavy, but also very beautiful. Uh it's uh yeah. I wonder now, um if you want to do this at home, uh for the people listening to us, how do you begin to do to go on this journey? What are some of the steps that you can take to uh start uh experimenting or test some of those way of those relational ways of being um with other humans and with the more than human?

Speaker 1 57:53

First of all, I think we are all on this journey since we have arrived here. So I don't think it's something you start, um, but we are all you know a well of relationships. Um so knowing we are already a multitude, rather than oh, we begin something. Um so for me, that in itself I think is an important reframe of pretending we don't know to actually, yeah, there's a lot we may not be always super aware of it or having seen it through that eyes. I remember for me it's it was this experience of one of my teachers said, take this stone in your hand and and see what sensations and images come up when you hold it. And you know, having a stone in my hand and not tuning in, oh stone, what do you want to tell me, but what does it, what, how does it feel in my body? What color comes up, what sound comes up, um, what sensation um does it shift anything at all? Um so not objectivizing it, this is the other, and I'm now talking to the stone, which again could create, could create, depending on how I feel about it, a sense of separation, you're here and I am here. But no, how is it how does it how does it interrelate with it meaning my system and what comes up as sensations and just to acknowledge and just to witness and just to without any interpretation, just allow my different sensory organs, could even be, you know, how how does it how can I hear it, how can I smell it, how can I not to go and smell it, but like what would my body feel like? Um to allow that. For me, that was a very important, I think, doorway.

Speaker 2 1:00:02

This is a wonderful, a wonderful practice that you just shared with us, uh Luea, um, which I also love. And and I think you alluded to that it's really important not to objectify um the stone again as the other. So really acknowledging as what we also term sometimes our interconnectedness, that everything is part of us and we're part of it at the same time. So, really, our system is already interwoven uh with every other system, and as it is for the system, it is it all it is always about where do we actually draw boundaries of systems, and we're just used to drawing very close boundaries, you know, around oh wow, this is now a stone or a rock, and it's out there. But what if we were to dissolve you know uh these boundaries that we see, but see it, for example, as part of a wider system. What is the wider system that we're both part of? What is the wider system that we're all part of? So I think there's some playfulness, and uh the playfulness for came up before. And for me, I would like to talk about you know serious playfulness, so kind of having this mindset of of trying out things, of you know being fearless of mistakes, but just of doing things and seeing what happens, and um at the same time having you know an intention uh with it, an intention about something that is, yeah. Well, you know, I'm actually just about uh inquiring into my own boundaries, uh the larger system, our ways of relating and being. You know, there is something kind of serious about that. We can be really, really playful when doing it.

Speaker 1:02:11

Beautiful. Well, thank you, Anais, thank you, Luea. It was wonderful to spend this time with you, and that was the first episode of our podcast from the World Ethic Forum. Thank you.

Speaker 1:02:24

Thank you for joining us today. We’re making this podcast to track the ripples of our inquiry, and harvest some of the learnings we make along the way. It’s our attempt to name and articulate things that are often left unspoken, too subtle to capture in words. If something resonated with you, we hope that it can inform your practice, and benefit the collective spaces around you.    Everything we mentioned in this episode is in the show notes. You can also find more at worldethicforum.com.

Speaker 1:02:24 Speaker 1:02:24