Firekeeping

Yes, I stay, no matter what. In this episode, we speak about firekeeping as a long-term commitment to tending the flame, so that a group can become a vessel strong enough for deep inquiry. We look into melting armours, bearing with dissonance, accepting vulnerability, and how it all hangs on the daily practices that keep each firekeeper well-tuned, like a musical instrument. This is the fourth episode in a six-part series with World Ethic Forum co-leads Luea Ritter and Anaïs Sägesser, on cultivating a culture of care and kinship.

Show notes 

• Blogpost: What is Firekeeping and What are Firekeepers https://www.worldethicforum.com/what-are-firekeepers-and-what-is-firekeeping/
• Blogpost: What Happens at a Firekeeper Gathering https://www.worldethicforum.com/what-happens-at-a-firekeeper-gathering/
• Blogpost: When Grief Enters the Circle https://www.worldethicforum.com/when-grief-enters-the-circle-transformative-learning-as-a-collective-practice/

Transcript

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Speaker 0:00

Yes, I stay. No matter what. Today, Luea, Anais and I go to the heart of how the World Ethic Forum is held. Fire Keeping. It's a long-term commitment to our inquiry and to forming a collective vessel strong enough to hold it. We'll be talking about melting armors, accepting vulnerability, bearing with dissonance, and the daily practices that keep a firekeeper well tuned, like a musical instrument. Hello, you're listening to the World Ethic Forum Podcast. I'm Julien, and I'm your host today. This podcast is exploring what we call a culture of care and kinship. It's a way of being in the world where humans feel and act as part of the web of life. We're not offering chewed up and pre-digested wisdom. Instead, we're sharing with you what a live inquiry into radically shared aliveness might feel like. Fair warning, some of what you will hear might feel strange or inconclusive. That's all by design. We're here to loosen something in ourselves and maybe between us. Because then maybe something else can emerge. New types of relationships, new questions, and new directions. How did fire keeping come about? The practice itself and also the choice of the word fire keeping as a core element of the World Ethic Forum.

Speaker 1 1:53

Thank you, Julien, and thank you for starting there. Fire keeping or fire keepers, the Fire Keeper Circle emerged from conversations in 2021 when we shifted to this more inquiry-based approach, and clarified that this is really something we want to lean into to explore how can a culture of care and kinship rooted in radically shared aliveness be practiced be given shape to. Leaning into questions such as radically shared aliveness, culture of care and kinship. What does happen when we bring them together, all of them being firekeepers in their own regards? And what happens when they gather as a circle to tend to a shared inquiry in the middle that is not informed by one or the other context or um schools of thoughts or bodies of knowledge and wisdom? But it's really and also not a potpuri of everything and nothing, but really like what is then becoming visible at the center, at the core, as this tending to to the flame to an to an essence together, and the importance of having people engaging into such a way of being together.

Speaker 6:27

So I I'd love to go back to the metaphor and some of the expressions that you used and and ask you to uh develop more on the positioning of the firekeepers in relation to the fire. I was fascinated that you spoke of tending to the fire, leaning into the fire, and then sitting in the fire. And I'm wondering in this process, how do people position themselves in relation to the flame? Do they get burned? Do they not get burned? How do they know how to move in and out? And what happens in in relation to that?

Speaker 2 7:04

So fire is also a metaphor often for transformation. So when we sit in the fire as firekeepers, that really refers to this transformative power, at least for me. And the sitting around a fire is tending to something, being in community, gathering around disjoint inquiry. A fire also needs to be fed, needs to be tended to. So it is both a metaphorical practice as well as at least when we gather in person, now also a physical practice, where we keep fire burning for the whole duration of our gatherings and have fire keepers continuously tending to it. The fire is also kind of something that we, you know, there's a flame in you, something that you burn for, something that you are called to bring into the world, and where you and your own community um, you know, really tend to it, and then it becomes suddenly a fire of fires coming together. So we relate, as you said, Julien, to this um fire in many different ways, both when we look at it as a collective cauldron, or when we look at it as a collective cauldron of transformation, as well as a collective tending to, as well as being fed by other fires, which we also tend to, because you know each of the fire keepers also has a fire that they continuously nurture and tend to. And some will call it that they are water keepers, maybe. So their fire becomes the metaphor, which also stands for all the other elements, at least in the way we're using it as fire keepers.

Speaker 9:43

Wow, this is so rich. I have a million questions, but uh I'll I'll ask them one at a time. And both of you have used the words vessel or cauldron, and I'd love for you to uh tell me more about how do you how does a group of people become a vessel or a cauldron? Uh I have blacksmiths in my family, and I'm always interested in the the working of metals. How does that work? What is the forge? What is the flame? How does that transformation happen?

Speaker 1 10:15

Thank you. Um so I I don't think I can you know say this is how it happens. I think it was more a sense that for such a potent but also daring and big inquiry that has and entails so much transformative potential and power, and is not uh something to just lightly play with it. I would say the the main ingredient is presence, saying yes, I stay, no matter what, and of course that no matter what that has can have different connotations, but we have gone as a as a circle through many messy, tender, delicate, fragile moments, powerful moments, empowering moments, transformative moments. There were enough moments where you could say situations and experiences where one would could have easily said, This is enough, I've had it, they just don't get me, or we don't get each other, or moments that would in other situations, if a culture of care isn't established, would easily lead to fragmentation of a group. And the by way of speaking, the stuff, the dross that comes together in our circle isn't light only. There's a lot of stuff, a lot of things emerging under the surface that want to be acknowledged, that need to be reconciled with, um, learn from each other, forgiven, etc. Not as individuals, but what we stand for, what we represent, where we come from, the perspectives, our roles in in societies and globally. But the power of everyone to say yes I stay Yes I'm here, yes, I dare to be touched and touching, to be met with discomfort, and yet not question the relationship, but stay in relation with both the question, the practice, the circle, and the individuals. For me, that's like a core experience of something I haven't experienced before in that extent, I would say, and a very important, I would say, muscle, you could say, that we build as a collective body and deepen, and the level of trust that then emerges from that, uh, and it's not just bonding by way of speaking, but it's really that I trust us to stay, and I'm ready also to be saying yes to my own transformative movements while we are as a collective move through transformative processes and work on deeply deeply ingrained stuff that call for being transformed, and being a kind of a microorganism or a yeah, sometimes I say like ah we are our own prototype. So how could we do that then together? And how could we practice clumsily stumbling sometimes, but present and and dedicated to stay with it?

Speaker 14:31

The way you speak about it just evokes these beautiful images of uh the word that comes to mind is refinement, is this this metal or this ore that is turning into something more and more pure as things get uh dissipated or separated and and fragmented people or all of these fragments coming together and and becoming more and more solid. And that's very beautiful to to see. But at the same time as I was hearing you talk, one thing's that one thing that came to mind was or that that I felt almost is the this transformation, moments of it must be incredibly painful, uh bearing through that the intensity of that refinement and that kind of coming together. And so I was wondering, is it is it actually painful, or are there moments of pain that you have experienced or that you've witnessed in the process? And and if you have, what makes people stay through the pain in order to go through the the transformation? How is this presence maintained and reinforced?

Speaker 2 15:39

So, what makes me stay present is really this um very deep commitment to this co-inquiry around a culture of care and kinship rooted in radically shared aliveness. And I think you know, most of us probably share this very deep commitment because also we feel that this is something where there is um a need in the world right now to surface that much more again and to enliven it and to you know stay with the trouble, as Donna Haraway once beautifully said, and not to just uh withdraw, you know, whenever something comes up which is not um agreeable, and it is really the the case that you know transformation and and sometimes it's so kind of um lightly or also heavily used, but if if you look at larger transformation, it entails really that you allow all these difficult emotions as well, and that they have their space. Um sometimes when you feel misunderstood, there's frustration or there is um shame. Um, for example, when we look at the whole topic around decolonization, around you know, also white fragility, there are things which can can trigger strongly and where there is a a reaction, but it can also be around um very other points. Um each one of us has their own own triggers, and yet at the same time we're also in a way representatives of the entire um system, and thus you know the individual triggers are maybe also an expression of the collective and and also the structural conditions that are there, and we are like the the smaller or vessel of uh the global society where then things show up but which actually have um much larger also repercussions, and I think that is also sometimes um what makes it what makes it difficult to stay with because you're very and and so valuable and important and by dearest and the commitment to stay with because you know if for example individually tears show up or grieving or mourning, it is of course that we are all to certain degrees aware of what's happening in the world, but usually, you know, in many contexts where we would meet, we would just kind of blend it out and not allow it to be fully present. So, really, this presence with everything this is happening and allowing it to show up and show up and not just you know pushing it away or saying, well, but now we're together and let's be happy and joyful. Not saying that they're not also moments of celebration and joy and being in awe, but really being with the things that are there and allowing ourselves to be um emotionally very deeply touched, um, allowing this vulnerability to to surface um where most of us probably have learned to to build up an armor. And so I would say part of it is also we used now before this metaphor of forging, it is kind of to have this this armor melting into the collective cauldron or vessel, and kind of in this collective, safe in us space, which we are all co-holding together, you know, our armor can completely kind of melt and becomes part of what actually holds us um more collectively, and so it is more than also of an attunement um which happens, an attunement in our frequencies. So it's also of course, if there's any if there's a dissonance that um directly, you know, has an effect on each uh subsystem of ours, and sometimes you cannot go from a dissonance, you know, you cannot go into tune immediately, but there's maybe um a certain melody which is needed to go back there, or maybe you just need to stay a little bit in the dissonance and bear with it.

Speaker 21:16

I love this image that you shared of the armor melting into the collective cauldron and this vulnerability that comes out of it, and this this connectedness and this receptiveness to the sounds of the collective. And as you were describing it, then I started wondering, well, surely other things must come up when the armor becomes a cauldron. And so, what are those other things, or are there other things that you've witnessed? Not just the grief, but exaltations of joy or laughter while cooking marshmallows in the shared fire, fear, or anything else? What what happens?

Speaker 1 21:54

There's so many stories. Um I think the the joy is actually. Actually, you know, even just the joy when having grieved together or acknowledged uh a vulnerability that shows up in the midst, where nobody of us in that sense is the guilty one, and the other one is you know the one who is the victim by way of speaking. But when on one hand it is acknowledged that the power struggles we we have all been conditioned into, and depending on where we come from from the world, they look different, and there is a difference. Yet the beauty that happens when I truly feel I can witness the other in melting that armor, and and likewise, I'm um I'm also witnessed when somehow through these tender, fragile, and painful stories that connect us, there is this crack opening where beauty and to quote Leonard Cohen, the light comes in. So it's both this cracking open, cracking through, and also cracking down, of course, of things that no longer serve, and we not only want to transform, but that are ready and ripe to be to you know just naturally dissolve. I mean not naturally, but like they have a tendency to want to dissolve, then we actually see how much we have in common, how much a care, a culture of care and kinship does actually not just do the healing by way of speaking, and now we do healing, because healing is happening when the right conditions are present and in its own time and form and shape. But when you can feel this culture and care and kinship is actually lived and practiced, including with its you know, messiness and all of it. And it allows such a jewel to come out of the mud by way of speaking, or be um not polished, but but um almost like with with fine and less finer brushes be excavated, surfaced. Um and from that comes, of course, also an upholding that truth, that essence, which again then requires, of course, the next level of fire keeping to because that means we have a shared responsibility, then. One thing is to really move through these different motions of joy, celebrating our diversity, feeling the abundance in all of its colours and shades, feeling the tenderness, the softness, the rawness, the messiness. And then, of course, out of that, also the maturing responsibility and accountability that that requires to maintain what is given to us as custodians, as guardians. And in as Anay said earlier, we call it as a general term via keeping, but it it means it can also be water keeping, earth keeping, air keeping. This kind of something is given into our care to take care of in return, as stewards, as as um not as owners of it.

Speaker 25:54

So describing this process that seems incredibly powerful in the in its transformative potential, melting the armours, melting the stories, bringing people together. And I I'm wondering where does the the energy come from that feeds this process? You were both talking about feeding the fire physically, but also metaphorically. What do you bring to this fire so that it can keep burning strong enough to do what it what it does?

Speaker 2 26:26

I think it's something that we alluded on in one of our last episodes that each of the fire keepers has might maybe um their own practice, their own practices, be it of contemplative nature, be it around rituals, be it around artistic practices, be it around community practices. So each one has um their own way to continuously nurture their own inner light, their own flame, which is actually very um important, and I would actually call it even one of the preconditions of joining the fire keeper circle. Um, that there is a certain groundedness of having worked uh already on the individual capacity of being in service to the world and of being in this continuous process of engagement. And so, of course, you know, there is this field where everyone comes with their own capacities and um, and at the same time, of course, when we come together jointly, there's this um collective field as well, which is co-nurturing, where um there is also, I would say, a regenerative um power to it. So we've heard from many fire keepers that when they come back from especially the physical gatherings, but sometimes also the online gatherings, that they feel this sense of um you know, of being nurtured again, of reinforcement, of attunement, of nourishment, which carries also through, you know, through time, through space. I think this is very important because the people in our circle, they're all very um engaged and active, you know, with the world. They're really truly living their manifestations to be here also as stewards of land, of community, with the more than human, and to to be very aware and conscious of one's own, let's say, inner source, or of the inner source which is continuously fed through a greater source, is um is something which um almost uh a prerequisite to doing that work, or maybe it's something which is just also part of that work, and um yeah, so I think that's where part of feeding the fire comes from, certainly. Both the own practices, the practices in the collective space, and of course, this deep way of being in connection also with the subtle, with the more than human, because there's so much more um that is uh that is guiding and strengthening us as well.

Speaker 30:23

Thank you. In the in the various uh moments when we've spoken on this podcast and and elsewhere, I've often heard both of you mention the importance of this regular practice and how grounding it is. So I was wondering if you might be open to sharing some of those practices that you have uh with me.

Speaker 1 30:48

So for me, the practices there is a difference, let's say, between maintaining posture throughout um the year, and then there are practices towards preparing for the bigger gathering. And for me, my my daily practices, contemplative practices morning and evening, uh to really maintain my presence, to feel connected, centered, both on a physical level for sure, through movements in different forms and ways, through how I integrate and work with emotional stuff that may come up, emptying not only my mind mind, but really connecting with the more subtle. And that's just a very personal practice that I think everyone has their own form and shape, and in definitely in my case, it has evolved and definitely will continue to evolve over time. It is also to really listen in and to become empty enough every day to listen. What else is important to pay attention to? I personally live a very you know rich, full life in terms of calls and engagements and meetings, and especially in that to really maintain my posture, like you know, a musician is training its uh uh muscles to play the instrument well, to stay a well-tuned instrument is for me a prerequisite. And then the practice of actually preparing for the more intense phases, and that's currently mainly around our yearly gathering, has a lot to do with connecting weeks in advance to the place, connecting as a hosting team of what is really the calling question for this very particular moment in time, what are aspects that we need to tend to, what are dynamics that we have witnessed that maybe need specific care and attention or being addressed in a different, more fuller way, has to do with really ensuring all the different aspects in preparing, and that of course includes also logistics and coordination, but also includes that energetic vessel buildup with the subtle, with the more than human, with each other as practitioners, and there is a natural you can feel like oh, we are converging again, and everything gets a bit more heightened, and the senses are more heightened of maybe things, thematics, dynamics bubble up already, not because to you know um hinder us, but actually to become aware: hey, here is something that needs more attention or more care this time, or here is a delicate aspect to pay attention to. And so for me, that practice is then also where we start to enter into collective practice. How do we co-hold? How do we prepare together? And that may look different depending on you know my context and background, but I can still, even with someone who would now have their practice in rooted in a specific faith-based practice, prayer practice, and I with another background, we can do that together. It doesn't mean we have to assimilate and become the same or generalize, but really meeting in that diversity as practitioners is that what both makes it very rich and nuanced, acknowledging differences, and at the same time, practice ground for what does it look like when we really truly having an embodied practice of care and kinship that does transcend the tendency of division that we can still witness in the world out there where differences are more seen as a blockage or as a factor for division rather than something that would actually bring us together to celebrate.

Speaker 35:30

How about you, Anais? I'd love to hear what what are the practices that you conduct?

Speaker 2 35:35

Yeah, so for me it is also important every morning to actually um connect with all the elements um very um explicitly, and to have at least some moments of contemplative practice. Physical practice. Um it is something in the morning where if time is tight, that is the thing that I still keep skipping occasionally because what would be good for me is the morning walk outside or my yoga asana practice. But uh so there I prioritize a small ritual of quitting the elements and then um a shorter or longer contemplative practice, and also kind of a conscious closing of the day is very important for me, um which usually then ends with uh gratitude, explicit gratitude. So, what is also important for me is to have dedicated time for really deeper um periods of practice. So one thing which is very important is um really I would I just call it a conscious practice of connecting as nature, um where you know it's around multiple days, and I let everything else go for a moment and focus on that, and I am also outdoors, and I sleep outdoors. So this is one thing which is very important, which doesn't mean that it's not a practice, also um continuously throughout um the days and weeks and months, but um sometimes kind of more as a reminder, it also makes sense, at least for me, to have this more dedicated spaces. And then as Luea also said, you know, when there is a gathering upcoming, especially, um to have in the in the contemplative practice, especially in the morning, to have also then this this conscious um intention and connecting with land and place with um call it even the this organism of the World Ethic Forum, which is actually not only in preparation of a gathering, but which is a continuous practice, and just you know, sensing kind of into this this really greater field um that we are co-holding. And then I also have many other practices which uh matter great greatly to me, um, and which can be around dance, um especially a sacred dance uh practice of uh being in a dancing prayer in community and doing that in ritual, um yeah, different movement practices and also you know breath practices on generally just kind of the presencing with it is. So some practices are very tiny and they happen kind of in a glimpse of a second. Um others are the ones which take um a bit more time and space throughout the day. So yeah, that was maybe now a bit of a long-winded answer to your short question. Because it's such a rich field of practice, and very often, you know, it it is much more this more like taking a very conscious sip of water and feeling the water, you know, through the body, and kind of for one moment just having this explicit awareness ah, I am water, I am air, I am earth, I am fire. So as short as this is also a practice.

Speaker 40:24

It's beautiful the way you put it, because it's true. We have, or I occasionally have this sense that a practice needs to be this kind of sophisticated, deep, complex, esoteric thing, but it can be a simple shift or uh enhanced level of intensity in the way we relate to something as simple as taking a sip of water and suddenly we're in practice. It's kind of pervasive. This kind of uh leads me to reflect on something that was uh that that that appeared from the way you described your practice and also the World Ethic Forum, which is this tension between the the continuity of the practice, the dailiness of it, and then those moments of higher intensity where something comes together is more transformative or is um uh a reconnection to the source. And I'd love to ask you now, how does that how does that work for the World Ethic Forum, as this uh inquiry and this ongoing practice of firekeeping, how do you relate and how do the firekeepers relate those moments of great intensity when you come together, the online gatherings that you mentioned, and the time in between? How does that work?

Speaker 2 41:43

So let me speak just for myself. Um, and maybe there's another moment to also ask uh other firekeepers. So for me, you know, being part of the Firekeeper Circle is actually a continuous practice throughout the year. Um it is not something which is only in certain moments, but in all the work that I do, um, that this is really present. So it is um a stance, it is an attitude, it is a field, it is a soil, it is you know the air and water. So it really percolates through all my areas of being. And this it's not something separate. It is certainly when, for example, meeting online, there is then a certain focus maybe on a specific part of the joint inquiry, or there is a maybe a more pronounced sensation of a field. And of course, when we meet uh in person, I think the the thing is that the whole focus is there and that there's nothing kind of or not nothing, but but many of all the other fields which we're maybe also holding are then not so present for a couple of days, and so it also means that it feels like very much an extension of time, and that such a meeting of three, four days feels like it lasts for a month.

Speaker 43:45

Is it the same for you?

Speaker 1 43:48

Uh yes, it is, on that extension of time, and what I still struggle sometimes, honestly, with is when we have these high levels of intensity together and much gets revealed, experienced, lived. Um you know, and you I can feel each time like there is there are little and subtle but also profound, almost like cellular shifts, both in me as an individual, but also in us as a group. Where I still struggle is then how do we hold that energy when we transition back to our different contexts and meet again online, and especially also how do we share these experiences, not only literally, but how do we ensure that the ones of us who could not be at the gathering, because there are always people who can't make it out of whatever reason to the actual in-person gathering, personally chosen visa issues, other work uh engagements. How do we share that back to the full circle? And how do we uphold the fire during the times we are not in person together, being fed by this time we had together?

Speaker 45:14

So, this is the next stage in the making of the cauldron to keep the armor melted and share the fire with all of the people who are involved and were not physically present. Thank you. This was a beautiful conversation and really looking forward to our next episode. Thank you for joining us today. We're making this podcast to track the ripples of our inquiry and harvest some of the learnings we make along the way. It's our attempt to name and articulate things that are often left unspoken, too subtle to capture in words. If something resonated with you, we hope that it can inform your practice and benefit the collective spaces around you. Everything we mentioned in this episode is in the show notes. You can also find more at WorldethicForum.com. In our next podcast, we will be talking about our conceptual lens. We look forward to having you with us again.