free 2 think
free 2 think is a podcast hosted by Cody Davis and Jacob Cady, exploring faith, culture, politics, and the ideas shaping our world. Through thoughtful conversation, respectful disagreement, and a commitment to curiosity, we tackle hard topics without the outrage. Think deeply. Listen carefully. Stay free to think.
free 2 think
Ep. 6 | AI, Consciousness & the Data Center Boom
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Artificial intelligence is changing the world faster than most people realize. We unpack what AI actually is, what it's good for, where the hype goes too far, and whether it could ever be considered conscious. We also dive into the growing demand for data centers—the benefits they bring, the concerns they raise, and the tradeoffs communities are wrestling with.
Didn't work. Here we go. Welcome back to Free to Think. Epicity. I'm Jacob. We're back for another episode of Free to Think. Epic Sode. Epic Sode. Epic episode. So, Jacob, what are we going to talk about today? I don't know. Whatever you want to. Let's talk about some intelligence of the artificial variety.
SPEAKER_01Oh, is that what the A stands for? I think so. And what does the I stand for? Intelligence. Oh, right.
SPEAKER_02Artificial intelligence. What about it makes it artificial? It's It's real, I guess. I mean, it's real intelligence based on real knowledge, but it's not produced by humans. Oh. So synthetic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I don't even know what AI is. I like the term synthetic sentience. Synthetic sentience. I don't know if that'll ever catch on. I think. I think artificial intelligence has already caught on. Yeah, it's kind of ingrained.
SPEAKER_02It is.
SPEAKER_01But before we launch into that. Tell me. I have to ask you. Because my daughter wanted me to talk about this. What is your favorite turtle?
unknownMan.
SPEAKER_02Like my brother Darby, I know likes Raphael because Raphael's angry. Yeah. Red. And you know, my brother's a redhead. I like Michelangelo because he's funny. He's the comic of the group. But I don't relate to him as well. Um I'd have to go with You're more of a Donatello, aren't you? Yeah, I would have to go with Donatello. Like he's he's like the leader. And he's like the one that gets stuff done. I I think I would have to go with Donatello. And then Leonardo's just like the nerd of all nerds, and you know, tech tech guru knows it all. But I like them all. They're all good.
SPEAKER_01I meant like real turtles, though. Not necessarily ninja turtles. Really? Yeah. You weren't because she loves turtles. I mean, I figured you would go there, but I was uh I guess you didn't say ninja turtles, did you? I just said what's your favorite turtle? Alligator snapping turtle? Donatello is my favorite turtle. Leatherback? What type of turtles are those? They're like red-eared sliders, aren't they?
SPEAKER_02I have no idea. Don't you know the lore? No, I don't. Man. Is there like a book about the Ninja Turtles or was it a movie first?
SPEAKER_01I think it was a comic book. Comic book, yes. A graphic novel or something.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, my favorite turtle. I like the big ones in the ocean.
SPEAKER_01Sea turtles.
SPEAKER_02Sea turtles. Is that what they're called? Sea turtles?
SPEAKER_01Well, there's different types.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01The leatherback was always my favorite because it's the biggest.
SPEAKER_02They're so cool, and they're like hundreds of years old.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02They're pretty cool. I've seen a couple of them in the ocean, and they're just like majestic. I mean, they're so slow on land, but in water, they're just they're so majestic. They're just doing their thing. They just glide through the water. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Tortoises are they're pretty slow.
SPEAKER_02What's the difference between a turtle and a tortoise?
SPEAKER_01Um, I think turtles are kind of semi-aquatic and their shells are flatter. But a tortoise has got the dome.
SPEAKER_02And the proper way to say turtle is toidle.
SPEAKER_01Toidle? Toidle. Yeah, it looked like a giant toidle. It was a toidle. In a trench coat.
SPEAKER_02That was a reference, obviously, to teenage mutant ninja turtles.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, very good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Which was like our thing back in the 80s and 90s.
SPEAKER_01Yep. We used to have a turtle named Myrtle. Myrtle the turtle. Myrtle the turtle.
unknownYep.
SPEAKER_01I also had some redjured sliders, and one of them bit me one time. Took a chunk out.
SPEAKER_02It's no good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because I thought I was so fast, you know. I put my hand in front of him.
SPEAKER_02Do you still have turtles?
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_01Of course, Karina would want us to get a turtle as soon as possible. She loves them.
SPEAKER_02Well, you were a kid, you guys had snakes.
SPEAKER_01We had a ball python, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I never understood that. And then one of the snakes. And then one time it went missing and you guys couldn't find your snake.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it was in the couch. How do you sleep at night? It's not a poisonous snake. It's not like it's an anaconda.
SPEAKER_02It was a big snake.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it wasn't that big.
SPEAKER_00It was like eight feet long.
SPEAKER_01It was so gentle.
SPEAKER_00Until it's wrapping itself around your neck. He wouldn't do that.
SPEAKER_01He loved us.
SPEAKER_00Sneaky snake.
SPEAKER_02Nature.
SPEAKER_01Although it was fun to feed mice to that thing. Exactly. Yeah. He would coil up around the mice. They'd be screaming. Mom would always want me to feed him. Yeah. Because uh she didn't like that part.
SPEAKER_02What'd you name it again?
SPEAKER_01Sneaky.
SPEAKER_02Sneaky? Yeah. You guys like those alliterations. Sneaky the snake.
unknownYep.
SPEAKER_02What was the other one? Myrtle the turtle. Myrtle the turtle. It's good. Yeah. Yeah, anyways, when I found out your snake was missing, I was like, I ain't sleep, I ain't spend the night at Jacob and Justin's house. No way.
SPEAKER_03Why not?
SPEAKER_02Scared of a snake.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
unknownOh.
SPEAKER_02That's what nightmares are made of.
SPEAKER_01There's a lot worse nightmares than just a snake.
SPEAKER_02I mean, that's the very fun that's the foundation of Anaconda, the movie is a big snake and you don't know where it's at.
SPEAKER_01Okay, yeah, that snake. Sure. Snakey was only like four feet long. He seemed longer than that, but that was a long time ago. That's true. Probably a lot smaller these days. Or at least would seem that way.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Is that a recurring nightmare that you have of the snake?
SPEAKER_02I don't like snakes.
SPEAKER_01Because I have like whenever I have a nightmare or something, it's it's usually either the clown or the wolf.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't have nightmares about clowns. I you my my nightmares are usually me being unprepared for something, like showing up to a public event without clothes on.
SPEAKER_01Oh, so the like the grown-up nightmare. Yeah, the grown up nightmare. I don't have my notes prepared.
SPEAKER_02Correct. I'm supposed to give a speech and I don't know what I'm talking on.
SPEAKER_01Or but you do that every week? I don't. You have a speech and you don't know what you're talking on?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Like today? Yeah, but we're just talking.
SPEAKER_01I was just trying to make a joke.
unknownOh.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we don't know what we're talking about, but we do our best. Yes. We're thinking out loud. Yes. Because we're free to think.
SPEAKER_01We're free to think out loud. That's good. GJ. Cool. Oh, did we just fall off the cliff? We did.
SPEAKER_02Hmm. Did you watch the World Cup?
SPEAKER_01Nope. But I heard that Spain won the title.
SPEAKER_02Spain won 1-0. They deserved it.
SPEAKER_01So we we were both wrong. Why were we both wrong? Well, because I thought it was going to be 3-2, and you thought it was going to be 2-1. Oh, yeah, yeah. On the score. Correct. I can't remember even who I said was going to win. Yeah. I think you said Spain because they were super good defense.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I really wanted to see him win it. It was just we all expect it to be his last World Cup because he's 39. So the next World Cup he would be 43. Man, that is so old. It's so old.
SPEAKER_00Oh my goodness. It's old. But uh been 84 years.
SPEAKER_02Anyways. Anyways, but yeah, Spain deserved that deserve the World Cup. They're the better team by far. I'm glad they snuck it in in overtime.
SPEAKER_01Overtime, huh? Yeah. So it was zero zero the entire game. That sounds like a slog.
SPEAKER_02It was, but it's still fun.
unknownCool.
SPEAKER_01So if you sped it up and watched it at like three times speed, that would it's not like a podcast that you can speed up.
SPEAKER_02You uh you gotta get the feel of the game. And like there's these peaks, right? Like when opportunities happen, and there's this flow to it, and you relax. And I don't know. I really like the flow of a soccer game. You you gotta understand the game, you you gotta kind of love the game, but once you get into it, there's this flow that's just beautiful. It's not like a football game, like the football game's designed around commercials, so it's like go, go, go, and then you wait for a minute and a half, two minutes, three minutes, whatever it is. But a soccer game, and they they did something new this year. They created these hydration breaks, which is basically halfway through the half. And I I think there was some logic behind it because in some of these countries, like well, even this year, you know, if you whether you're down in Miami and the the the heat index is through the roof with humidity, they wanted to take an extra break. So they they call them hydration breaks. But let's be honest, they weren't for hydration. They were FIFA wanted some commercial breaks because they look at the NFL and they look about they look at the amount of money the NFL is raking in with their commercials and their design. Where a soccer game just isn't designed for commercial breaks, except for halftime. Halftime is literally only and they're usually only 10 to 15 minutes, so they'd have to cram them all in there, and you're not gonna sit there and watch a solid 15 minutes of commercials.
SPEAKER_01Fair enough. Anyway, so they snuck them in other ways. I hate just watching 15 seconds of commercials. I know, drives my nuts.
SPEAKER_00You're trying to skip YouTube premium.
SPEAKER_02Skip. I'm still just cheap. I know. I had a guy when I was uh in my campaign for commissioner, I think the first time, and I was running YouTube ads, and he sent me this message. He goes, if I have to watch one more of your campaign ads, I'm not gonna vote for you. And I I didn't respond to this, but I wanted to respond. I was like, don't be cheap by YouTube premium. You know, it's like that's that's what's paying for your your ability to watch YouTube is the commercials.
SPEAKER_01So you were doing him a favor.
SPEAKER_02I was doing him a favor.
SPEAKER_01I was paying for his free for his free content. Free content.
SPEAKER_00Man, he was ungrateful though. Very ungrateful. Sounds like he just needed an attitude adjustment.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, probably.
SPEAKER_01Fair enough.
SPEAKER_02I'm so sorry. Oh man, I'm still trying to learn this thing. That's what I was trying to do, was to get to that screen, but my gosh.
SPEAKER_01Play the intro again.
SPEAKER_02Whenever we have a break. Whenever we have a break, I'm just gonna play the intro. And we're back. And we're back from commercial break.
SPEAKER_01From our sponsor. Oh, jeez. If we had tried to get sponsored by Taco Bell, it might not be going too good right now.
SPEAKER_02No, Taco Bell's not doing so good either. It's a it's another conversation about lettuce from Taylor Farms that's been Taylor Farms.
SPEAKER_01Is that in Colorado?
SPEAKER_02Taylor Farms, I think, is in Mexico.
SPEAKER_01Oh.
SPEAKER_02But they've been contaminated with that disease. Cyclospora. Yeah. Anyways.
SPEAKER_01Alright, now that we're completely derailed.
SPEAKER_02Let's talk about an artificial intelligence, man. I mean.
SPEAKER_01So intelligence has been around a while in humans and animals. What would you define intelligence as?
SPEAKER_02This is just off the top of my head, but the ability to reason with one's surroundings, the ability to communicate with your species. Yeah, the be the ability to take inputs from the outside world, process them, and then return.
SPEAKER_01So it's kind of like a function. You have inputs, you have outputs.
SPEAKER_02It's a communication language. I mean, intelligence really is. Um if you're unable to communicate with the outside world or with your species, I mean you're unintelligent. Um you're just trying to survive at that point. And then I guess survival is a is a form of intelligence.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah. Yeah. The ability to uh like accomplish a goal. To set a goal, accomplish a goal. How do you define intelligence? Uh it would barely be pretty close to the same thing. Communication definitely has a big thing to do with it just because you have to uh yeah, you have to produce the uh whatever language, and then you actually have to transmit it. So but that doesn't mean that I mean consciousness is a whole different thing, right?
SPEAKER_02It is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So what does consciousness have to do with AI?
SPEAKER_01At this point, probably not very much, actually.
SPEAKER_02Is AI conscious?
SPEAKER_01I don't think it is. I mean, in order to qualify something as having consciousness, we would have to be able to define what consciousness is real, real crystal, you know, succinctly and definitively, and then say, does this AI algorithm have that or does it not? I don't think we're I don't think we even know what consciousness is or where it comes from enough to actually say is the AI conscious enough or does it have consciousness or not?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we can't even define consciousness ourselves or where it comes from. Are we actually conscious? Are we just a product of chemicals and reactions?
SPEAKER_01Or are we all just in one big mind? Is it just me that exists and you're a figment of my imagination? Or is it the other way around? It's actually the other way around.
SPEAKER_00Solipsism? You don't actually exist. I do exist. What word did you just use? Solipsism.
SPEAKER_01It's like a philosophical concept when you're when you believe that you're the only intelligent thing in the universe.
SPEAKER_02There's a lot of that going around.
SPEAKER_01Yes, there is. Not even ironically.
SPEAKER_02No, there's not. There's people who think they they know everything. And I I think we all fight that at some level. Like we I think that's a product of the age too, where we can just Google something. What's what's that term called where you have a very brief understanding of something, but you think you understand it completely, and therefore you act as though you understand it completely, but really you're pretty ignorant about the topic. There's a term.
SPEAKER_01The Dunning Kruger effect. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's where your uh your perceived expertise outpaces your actual expertise.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. We've got a lot of that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think it's kind of like where we operate on this podcast because we we come up with a topic and then we research just enough to be dangerous.
SPEAKER_02Just enough to be dangerous, but we're also clear that we're thinking out loud. We're taking it uh on an idea and we're processing it. Um, and we realize that we're underneath that Dunning Gruger effect. Oh yeah. Um, and we're not immune to that, and we we uh recognize that. Um I know very little about AI. I've listened to a lot of podcasts on AI, and it'll hurt your brain if you try to learn what it actually is and how it actually operates. Um, and then there's always the the moral argument of AI and what it does to not only our minds, but also our culture.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So uh, you know, AI, if you're talking about a transform or something like that, what does it boil down to? When you're talking about a what? The transform. That's kind of what they call the algorithm. So especially with like image recognition. Yeah. Because that's kind of the biggest, that's where AI kind of started was it they had this device called the uh perceptron. Have you heard of that? Perceptron, yeah. And they they would they would give this perceptron a uh a very simple image that was basically like a nine by nine array of LEDs, and it would have a letter on it or something. I think it was a J or something like that. And the percep Perceptron would run its own algorithm to try to recreate what it just saw. Yeah. And you know, it was very basic, but that's kind of the whole basis of AI is just taking, you know, as far as image recognition goes, it's just pattern recognition, really. Just taking things that it's seen. And, you know, if you if you give it an image of a bird and it's trying to extract what that is, it's going to take all of the sort of collective images that it's been trained on, and it's going to run them through this transform and figure out, you know, what category does this image fall into, most likely. So it's just a lot of like matrix math and dot products and stuff like that. So it's when when you actually boil down like the mathematics of what's happening, it's really pretty simple. But then you then the question is, well, why do we need a huge, you know, uh million square foot AI data center? It's because these simple operations, you have to do four trillion of them, you know, to do to do one complex analysis. And so that's why the data centers need so so much computing power is because just the sheer number of of operations that need to happen. And that's what kept AI kind of quashed for a while. At bay, yeah. Is just because the computing power wasn't there, you know. If they were trying to use a computer that used the punch cards or magnetic tape or something, and yeah, it the the computing power just wasn't there. It not it's not that the theory wasn't there, it's just that the infrastructure wasn't there yet.
SPEAKER_02Well, and the the infrastructure the infrastructure itself is quite controversial. Like try to build a data center somewhere, and you're gonna see people come out of the woods, especially today. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of there's a lot of bad information about what data centers are and what they consume, what they use, this and that. But uh, like we're talking about here in Mesa County. Um, we don't have any anyone who's really interested in putting a data center in. We've got some people kicking tires, but I'll tell you, it doesn't matter what political background you come from, people are hot to trot about data centers. And usually it's well, they they use way too much water, they're way too loud. Um I heard this last week that they emit waves and and sounds that that can impact you on so many levels. And I I don't know, I there's a lot around data centers that make people kind of go weird. Um like new subdivisions and solar farms are are controversial. But multi mult the multiplier on data centers is probably in the tens on how controversial these data centers are gonna be. Because they do, they use they consume a ton of energy. And actually the energy companies actually like them because they create a baseload um that they can sell to. Well, local communities get afraid that they're gonna run out of energy. Yeah, because they see these things in like the big cities where they've got these brownouts or they've got select select time periods when there literally is no power to conserve power because I guess they don't have enough, especially in the winter, uh not in the winter, but especially in the summer, because that's when the majority of energy is consumed. Yeah. Basically because of air conditioning. Which apparently the Europeans don't have. Not at all. No, I'm sure I I I know they do, but the Europeans were as they came over for the World Cup, they were relishing the availability of air conditioning everywhere. Nice. Because it's just widely used in America. And Europe they grew up without air conditioning, of course. Whereas America, the first time they had electricity, they were tar they were thinking about ways to cool down houses, right? And so um AC is baked into the cake here in America, and it's like if you build something new, like a football stadium. I went down to the World Cup in Atlanta bucket list, watched Spain versus Saudi Arabia. Um, they have AC in there, and they kept it at 72 the entire time.
SPEAKER_01I thought it was versus Morocco.
SPEAKER_02No, I watched I watched Morocco play Haiti. So we watched two games Morocco versus Haiti and then Spain versus Saudi Arabia. Gotcha. But yeah sorry, I diverge the Atlanta Falcons football stadium has AC in it. And like is it a dome? Yeah, it's it's enclosed. They actually it's uh it's a weird-looking thing, but they can actually open it too, so it can be opened or closed. But yeah, they cranked the AC in that puppy anyway.
SPEAKER_01But it's technological marvel that capitalism has produced.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and they still had hydration breaks.
SPEAKER_00Go think.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, physical activity is physical activity, regardless of the environment. So let me ask you this. I mean, they say that um data centers consume water. So I mean, there's no way that you you're pumping a million gallons into a data center and it's consuming a million gallons, right? Well, the we the way the I mean what how how does it because it's using it for cooling. Correct. How does the system actually work?
SPEAKER_02Well, the there's different types of systems. So think of it as like an evaporative cooler. Um, if you have Swamp cooler, you run water over the pads and air comes through. That water cools the air and then pumps it into the but that that water essentially evaporates. Yeah. And so you're you're utilizing water. It it's it's not it's not a product that comes back to you or goes into a drain or anything like that. It's it's gone. Well, it's into the air. Um and data centers most data centers, um, or at least older data centers use that same concept because to compute you ever feel your computer after it's been on for a while, it gets hot because those computations take energy. Oh yeah. And as you as you mentioned earlier, these um AI computations take a ton of energy. Yep. Um and so they have to be cooled heavily, and so they used basically evaporative systems to cool these to cool these down, but they use a ton of water. And out here in the West, that becomes super controversial when we don't have hardly enough water to f to water our fields, yeah, our farms. And so data centers are actually going to a closed loop system, either a closed loop water system or a closed loose uh loop glycol system. Um so basically like the radiator in your vehicle. Um so you never utilize you have to fill the system up, but then it's like a radiator. It uh the the the the air cools off the radiator type thing and and the and the engine itself, um, and then it loops through again. So you need a lot more airflow. You need a lot more airflow, and you probably need you probably still need a lot of water, but you're not you're not evaporating that water. Um, so your your water consumption is going down, and data computation is getting more efficient as well, you know. Back in the day, this this laptop that I have here would have would have filled this table, you know, or it would have taken an entire room and generating a lot of heat. Nowadays it's a tiny little computer. So we're getting more and more efficient as we go forward.
SPEAKER_01I mean, they think that these microprocessors generate a lot of heat. Think about like vacuum tubes that are little electron emitters. Super hot. Yeah. Like you have a room full of those.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, just think about having a room full of incandescent bulbs.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it's just like that's basically what they are, yeah. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02So we're we're getting more and more efficient. Um, but people have to recognize if they're and I I hear this all the time, like every time you get on Google or AI, let's say, and and ask it a question, uh, you just you might as well dump out a bottle of water on the floor because that's how much water it took. And I and I think there's probably some science to that if it's an evaporative system. But again, as we move forward and they get more efficient, they're gonna get better. And they have to, because they have to respond to the community. If the community thinks you're wasting water and energy, then you better do a closed system and produce your own energy. I mean, and that's essentially what they're doing today um to get past um that local opposition.
SPEAKER_01So do some of these data centers have their own power generation?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, some of them are producing their own energy, some of them are, you know, and and you can it's like buying um credits, right? Like let's say you may not be doing it right here, but you're gonna buy credits from a solar farm. So that solar farm is essentially producing for you and putting into the grid. So you've got to offset that energy consumption somehow. I I think we should have these little micro reactors, right? Nuclear reactors, and let them let them generate all their own energy, um, use closed systems, and that way their their impact is is very little. But that's again, that's two controversial things together, and someone's gonna grow a third eye, probably. So we better stay away from that.
SPEAKER_01Well, according to evolutionary biology, that's just uh another step. It's bound to happen. Part of the process. Yeah. Man, who was it talking the other day? They were talking about I think it was AOC. Talking about how they're the the ash from a coal plant has more radioactivity than nuclear waste. And it it just goes to show you that like you know, you're saying the these controversial issues, uh the controversy is usually based on the straw man, right? And it just goes to show you that these politicians they don't know what they're talking about because they're nuclear waste is like a billion times more radioactive than any ash from a plant. Yeah. But the statistic is that if you're talking about nuclear energy, the amount of neutrons radiation that actually leave a nuclear power plant is less than the neutrons that leave a coal power plant because of the shielding, right? Yeah. It's not that the coal ash is that much less or that the radioactive waste is less radioactive than the coal ash.
SPEAKER_02Everything is radioactive at some level, right?
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So to say that the fly ash coming out of the coal plant is radioactive is is not wrong. Yeah. Or that it's more radioactive than what comes out of a nuclear plant is not wrong. Oh, well, but it's misleading.
SPEAKER_01It's very wrong.
SPEAKER_02It's it's misleading.
SPEAKER_01The amount of radiation that actually comes from the ash of a power plant. I mean, what do you do with the ash? You're right. You're talking about you put it in the landfill. Yeah, yeah. What do you do with nuclear waste? Put it in the middle of the earth. You put it in lead barrels and then you make put it down deep as you can because then people do grow through dyes.
SPEAKER_02I think she's talking about the difference between what comes out of a smokestack that comes into the the air, I guess, and that can impact people around you versus what comes out of a quote unquote smokestack on a um nuclear power plant, which there is no smokestack, right? There's just steam. There's the cooling towers. Yeah, there's the cooling towers and steam comes out.
SPEAKER_01But you gotta be able to explain that reasonably. I mean, that's the Dunning Kruger effect wearing its ugly head, right? It's like either either she misspoke, in which she needs to go back and make a correction and say, Yeah, I I sounded like an idiot because I just said this thing that's totally untrue. Or she totally believes what she just said and she's totally ignorant.
SPEAKER_02Or there's a third option. She knows exactly what she said, and she's creating the Dunning Kruger for another, a lot of people who say, Oh my goodness, coal's more radioactive than that. That's a good point.
SPEAKER_01She's she's putting the sound bite out there. She's smart enough to take this and run with it.
SPEAKER_02To understand the difference. Yeah. But she knows nuclear is very controversial, and so if I can tie coal and nuclear together, I'm getting rid of both of them. That's a two-for-one deal.
SPEAKER_01That's that's just what I don't get, is just the fact that you have to generate power. I mean, if we don't generate any energy, where are we going to be? If we generate zero energy, it's a stone age, right? Everything we do is predicated on having energy transformation, right? The energy is stored in the coal or the energy is stored in the uranium or the plutonium. We have to be able to transform that into a usable form. I mean, otherwise we can't even do what we're doing here today, right? We can't make coffee, we can't do anything. It's like even a campfire, as primitive as that is, is transforming energy into something to where we can use it for some purpose, right? So when people rail against energy production, it just it uh boggles my mind.
SPEAKER_02Well, and and the the hypocrisy generally is they're they're doing it from a podcast or a cell phone and railing, yeah, railing against energy production in and of itself.
SPEAKER_01The people in the kayaks that are going up against the big oil tankers saying oil is evil, blah blah blah. And the polymers that are pulling them up. Yeah, the polymers that are actually they're floating on actually came from petrochemicals. Correct. Some people, some people's kids.
SPEAKER_02It's America, and I and I when I when I talk to people about environmentalism, you know, who who who themselves may be environmentalists, it's like why why aren't we doing more to save the planet? Um it's usually because they themselves, and again, every American is wealthy, but it's it's it's because they themselves are are are wealthy compared to the rest of the world. And they have um, as you as you've said before, they have in the hierarchy of needs, they have all of their needs met. Maybe not to 100%, but they they stand on on the top of that that hierarchy and they have all their basic needs met. And so now they can start worrying about the environment for the environment's sake, rather than being like, I just need clean water, so I'm gonna take this animal dung and I'm gonna burn it and I'm gonna cook this filthy water to where it's somewhat clean so that I can drink, just so that I can live tomorrow. They they don't care about the carbon emissions of the animal dung that they're they're burning, you know, and there's still people living like that today, and yet we have sometimes the audacity to say, no, you can't go through your own industrial revolution. You just need to go straight to solar power that we create for you, you know, to which most third world countries are saying we don't want this cheap energy. You know, we don't want this fake energy. Because that's compared to what coal and nuclear and some of the other energies are they they they they see solar as kind of this fake cheap energy. They can't really do much. Um, if you need to melt metals, you can't do it with solar. You know, you need an incredible amount of energy to melt metal, to literally go through an industrial revolution. You're gonna have to, you're gonna have to pump some smoke into the air. And so that you, and I say you, third world countries, can actually start worrying about things because they've fulfilled all their needs, they've met all of their needs in that hierarchy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I think also uh capitalism and tends towards things getting cleaned up, right? I mean, just look at London. Yeah. A hundred years ago, 150 years ago, London was like the dirtiest, smoggiest city on the face of the planet, right? Because they they were burning coal in their homes everywhere. And then through their industrial revolution and technological revolution, I mean, look at London today. It probably has smog just like LA or New York or whatever, but it's not like a permanent black cloud hanging over the city all the time. Because I think that the market will drive that, right? If if people hate the back black cloud, they're gonna move elsewhere. There's market forces that are gonna make that black cloud go away. They're gonna demand from their MP that cleaner, cleaner technologies are used. So I think in the end, you know, people can be their own sort of arbiter of their own environment. And well, and and you don't have to force that on to people through legislation, I don't think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and capitalism, it uses self-interest as the as the energy behind progress. Like we we talked about this this last week. You can either, you know, kill the horse or you can bridle the horse and and start moving forward. And capitalism says, I'm gonna bridle the horse and use that energy, that horse being kind of that self-interest and move forward. Um, it's in nobody's self-interest um to be breathing toxic sludge or to have E. coli in the river in your drinking water. Like it's in nobody's best interest. So um at some point, and and again, you've got to get to this point where you can worry about E. coli or toxic air particles. You've got to get to a point where you can worry about that for your own health's sake, and that takes some wealth. And America's there. Like we're we have we have a ton of regulation, you know, to the point where it's like, okay, now the now your regulation are getting absurd. We're not talking about um parts per million um in the river, like one or two parts per million. We're talking about parts per billion and parts per trillion in some cases, where it's like it's not even, it's virtually not even there. But we we've we've cleaned our air, we've cleaned our water, and there's there's nothing wrong with clean air. There's and in fact, I love clean air. I hate driving to Denver sometimes you see that small because you feel like, oh, I'm just breathing this stuff into my lungs and and congesting them. But so yeah, living out here in Western Colorado, we love clean air, clean water.
SPEAKER_01But the uh the average environmentalist, correct me if I'm wrong, if you ask them why they were caring about the environment, it's for the environment's sake. It's not like we need to clean up the air so all these people don't get lung cancer. We need to clean up the air because of some you know South American tree frog or something.
SPEAKER_02Um I think most of them tie it to something. Um I think it's more of an existential threat that they tie it to. Like, you know, for our kids or for our progeny, we we want to spare the earth for our future generations to live.
SPEAKER_01That's the prevailing opinion. I think that's because I've also heard like from some environmentalists like, no, we need to get rid of humans. Humans are the problem, and the earth needs to just be able to exist on its own. Not all basically kill all the humans.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I agree. Not all environmentalists are cut from the same pie. There are some environmentalists, and I've talked to them, you know, who say who are very anti-human, like humans are are cancer, um, and we need to rid the earth of this cancer. Um, to which the the natural question is, well, why don't you go first? I mean, because I know that's that's tough, but it's like if we really are a cancer, um, then you're not helping at all.
SPEAKER_01And so But you make a good point, right? Is like the environmentalist that's saying we can't burn fossil fuels. I mean, they probably ride a bike, but do they ride a bike everywhere? They probably drive a car. Do they turn on the AC when they're driving their car? Do they have a home? So, I mean, there's just rampant hypocrisy and a lack of humility that says, I'm gonna fight for this thing, even though this thing has afforded me all of these benefits that I'm not even gonna acknowledge. So, yeah, because I mean, driving a car or having a home, those are great luxuries. Not everybody has one of those. So I'm gonna rail against the system that has afforded me these luxuries, you know.
SPEAKER_02And I don't know if it's natural, but it seems like when people get to that point where, again, they can worry about the environment for the environment's environment's sake, they get to a point where they they stand on top of the heap and then they don't want anybody else to get to the top of the heap with them, you know. Um like the very thing that made them wealthy, the very thing that got them to the position that they're they're in to where they can rail against the man. They now want no it that's what it seems like.
SPEAKER_01We talked about socialism last week, though. Yeah, we did. That's exactly what it is, though. It's like I'm gonna be on the forefront of the revolution so that I can be the guy in the Politburo that's running everything. Everyone else doesn't have any power or any sort of agency, but I will.
SPEAKER_02Because I'm good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. We're supposed to be talking about AI. We've gotten off topic, but yeah, where are you going? Environmental. Oh, because we're talking about data centers. Yeah, data centers. So there's there's also the question. So I mean, so they have a they generate the same amount of heat, right? So the heat is going into the environment. Whether that heat is contained in the latent heat of the water or it's just in the air, you know, heat going into the air, it's the same amount of heat, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Theoretically, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I don't know where I was going with that, but I mean, the the the way that you cool the data center is kind of immaterial to how much energy the actual data center takes. But there's also talk of like contaminating the local area, like I just use the word like. But when they're if you built an Amazon warehouse or a Walmart or a school, is there anything that's unique to building a data center that you wouldn't have gone through in building any of these other general purpose buildings? I mean, you have to dig in the dirt, you have to make sure that the earth foundation is sufficient, you have to pour concrete, you have to put rebar down, you have to drive piles, you have to do whatever. Is there anything unique to the data center that the construction of the data center would do anything that these other buildings wouldn't?
SPEAKER_02As far as construction, I don't think so.
SPEAKER_01Because it seems like the point that they're trying to make is just the act of building the data center is harming the environment. But it in my mind we build these huge buildings all the time, and those never get complained about. So why is it the data center gets a unique amount of ire in that regard? Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02In my experience, it's never been about the construction of the data center, but rather the operation of the data center. You know, and there's positives to this as well. You know, people talk about the the value of a data center. So property tax, tax revenue locally, and usually there's an agreement between local governments and these data centers and say, hey, if you're gonna consume this much water, energy, um, there's got to be input back into the system, whether through um property tax, sales tax, or like an agreement to say, hey, we'll pay you this much this year. That's that's ten generally how these things go in, so they can get support from local government. Um but I think it's more on the operative side. So like I I don't think anybody says driving piles or or laying concrete, building walls is any more disruptive than than building a Walmart. The the difference is Walmart almost has a use by right because we have these commercial districts, and so we kind of as a community said, Hey, here's where you would build a warehouse or a Walmart or grocery store. Um and they don't even have to go to City Council or anything like that. It's just almost baked into the cake. This is where we want you. Um it pr it provides predictability. So someone can come, Walmart can come and say, hey, this is already a use by right, so we're gonna buy this land. Whereas data centers today, there's no predictability. It's like you don't even want to buy the land yet because you don't even have a right to build. It's called a CUP, a conditional use permit. You still have to go, and that's what happens in Mason County, maybe different elsewhere, but it's like you still got to go get the permission of the local government, you know, and it gets very political. So there's a political as it should, because these are very controversial and new, and so it goes through a process. So everybody gets a say um to what happens there, because one would say, well, it's a private property for them to do that. Well, it is, but there's also externalities that we have to consider. Like you're not gonna allow a um you're not gonna like allow a nuclear plant right next door to a residential subdivision or um an energy plant, whether it's oil, natural gas, coal, you name it, because you're gonna be pumping something into the air right next to them. So uh we have these areas um zoning, if you will, that kind of give them that right. But again, I would say it's it's operational concerns, not the actual construction.
SPEAKER_01So do these data centers not fall into a typical zoning category?
SPEAKER_02They they don't. If if there was a category, they would fall into a conditional use permit. So much like um uh a a drill rig, much like a uh an event center. Um now an event center has some kind of um use by right in certain zonings, but no, it doesn't. It's uh it's purely conditioned upon approval from local government.
SPEAKER_01So the majority of these data centers, what what type of uh area are they putting put in?
SPEAKER_02Generally rural areas, or when I was at Atlanta, we drove by one in kind of a residential area, but it you couldn't even see it. It was completely surrounded by by trees. They have thick forest down there, so kind of different topography and um ecology down there. Whereas here we're in the desert and you can kind of see it from wherever. Yeah, so even if you live three miles away, you can still see the data center, and so and noise isn't trapped by the trees like it is in the east. So it's a different consideration out here. And I think people are worried about noise because those apparently those things just hum and you can hear them, they're pretty loud. Um and again, water, what what is it emitting? Like we you know, we talk about cell phones. Um, what what type of brain damage are we causing ourselves by putting a cell phone by our ear or right in front of our face? So there's just a lot of uh concerns, unfounded concerns, probably, but still fears of about how it's gonna impact us. But that doesn't keep us from using AI or uh using technology and data, even though it means by me using this, there's a data center by someone's house somewhere, but not in my backyard, you know, like put it elsewhere. And that's and that's always the case. We want energy, we want clean energy, we want progress, but not just not by me. Go put it out in the desert somewhere.
SPEAKER_01I mean, we're gonna have to do power generation because there's miles and miles of high tension wires that lead to a power plant somewhere. I don't care. Yep. As long as it's not in my neighborhood, correct? So but yeah, we kind of malign this, like uh maybe maybe unfounded, maybe not resistance to these things, but it's kind of a good thing because you say that the only way that these data centers can operate is if they have agreements in these municipalities where they have to recontribute something, right? And they're they're contributing jobs and and you know, stuff like that. And but uh on on one hand, you know, unfounded mistrust is not a good thing, but on the other hand, maybe unfounded mistrust is a good thing just because it it's the checks and balance, right, in the whole process. And eventually, you know, it'll find this equilibrium state to where people will realize, yeah, these things aren't such a big deal, or at least not this monumental deal compared to a huge Walmart or a manufacturing plant. But I mean, they do have an effect, it's it's it's impossible to say that you can hide the effect of these things. And that again is where we just need honest analysis, right? If if we think these things are emitting some sort of electromagnetic Radiation. There's there's way to there's ways to mitigate that, and there's also ways to study that. So let's study it and then let's deal with it. Yeah. And then let the data center proceed. If it's, you know, water consumption that we're talking about, let's go to a closed loop system. If it's power generation or strain on the power grid, let's figure out a way to generate more power. Sure. So uh yeah, it it's kind of it's probably just seems so extreme because it is so new. But I I've also heard that like six months ago, there was hundreds and hundreds of these data center projects, and like 50% of them have been canceled. Yeah, they're still is that also true?
SPEAKER_02I I don't know the exact number, but I know they're stalling around they're they're up against some extreme public opposition. Which again, I like what you said. Cynicism is good. Like when you hear a new idea, like your your brow should furl. Like, yeah, I I don't know about this. That sounds risky. Let's uh because then it puts pressure on the you know on the industry itself to say, I need to answer these questions for the public. They're concerned about this, this, and that. And I'm not talking about like just pacifying them, but honestly answering these questions. And if it is a real concern, if it is a real concern, then answer it. As in like use less water, produce your own energy, you know, um electromagnetism being emitted into the universe. Yeah, like let's answer these questions honestly so that people can say, okay, I can sleep at night. And yes, I love watching Netflix or I love um drafting emails with AI. I I don't know, whatever you do with AI, it's like now um I can feel good about it because I'm not being a hypocrite. Yeah, I support data centers because I understand how it supports me. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01So uh on the in that vein, like what is the acceptable use of AI in your opinion? Yeah, this for just like an average person. Because you can either take the Luddite approach and say, I'm never gonna touch AI with a 10-foot pole in my entire life. Or you can take the opposite approach of like, I'm gonna invite AI into every like aspect of my life as much as I can. And so so where do you fall?
SPEAKER_02Uh it's a tool for sure. Um, it's made me more efficient, but I want product to be still identified with a person, right? Um, so for for example, I do use it to edit my emails and stuff like that, but I I write the original email, you know? It's like so it's my content is in there and say, okay, edit this. Or if it's maybe a bit harsh, you can say, take off the tone a little bit. But I want it to be mine. I still read the entire thing, I edit it, uh, modify it if I don't like it. I want it to be me. I still want things coming from humans. I get emails all the time where I'm like, you it's just an eye roll because it's like this is pure AI. Or like someone has says, Hey, will you read this 67-page document I just created myself and it's on some obscure topic, and I'm like, this is pure AI. I'm not gonna read you know your AI generator that took you 14 seconds to generate. I I just I'm just not interested. And you know, you can tell when people respond in email and it's AI, it's it's milked toast, it's completely has no humanity in it. And so you can kind of tell. So I still want um my humanity to be reflected in everything I do. It's nice for searches because sometimes if you don't have the right key phrase in a Google search, you're not gonna get what you want. So you have a hard time understanding what you need, whereas AI you can explain where you're at, what you need to get to, and it can and it divines through m mathematical equations and and and language models kind of what you need and what you want, and it gets you there quicker and easier. So it's absolutely a tool, but it can be abused. Like you're starting to see uh authors of books claim to have written a book, but it's clearly AI. In fact, there's uh I can't remember the term of it, but uh AI is for some reason in in its in its language models, uses when it's explaining something, it'll use negatives and then get to what something is. So if you ask something ask AI what is something, it'll it tends to use two negatives and then a positive. So people are starting to recognize this. Um and why it does it, we'll never know. Um why AI has these tendencies, it's almost like it's uh has a personality or something, but it has these tendencies. Um, in fact, I think it was um in Romeo and Juliet, there's a lot of these. So people are like, was Romeo and Juliet written in AI?
SPEAKER_01Because it has a lot of those tendencies. Maybe it was sent back from the future. But so um the other question I have is just if you use AI to generate something, are you giving Open AI or whatever anthropic? Is that one of them? That's one of them, yeah. Are you giving them permission to let the AI train on what you've just written? Yeah, yeah. So maybe that's something that people don't understand in the fine print of just if you have an AI algorithm, you have to train it on the material so that it's effective in producing, you know, it's mimicking human writing, right? So you have to train it on something, and there's a ton of stuff in the public domain that it can be trained on. Yeah, but if I'm writing an email and I use AI, then I've given the AI permission to totally digest what I've just written. Correct. And it goes into the the training resources of the AI.
SPEAKER_02It does, I don't think it use your specific content for other things, but yeah, it trains it. Um it understands better.
SPEAKER_01And that's what I think uh like these these so-called creatives that would use AI to make an image or a movie or something, right? If they go beyond using it as a tool and they start using it to create, what they're doing is they're just using it to create something that has that is a result of just the re-digested humanity, right? So fine, yeah. If if if I use AI to write a novel, I'm not really using AI to write to generate my ideas. I'm using AI to generate ideas that are just an amalgamation of a million other human ideas. So it it's not really it's not really the genesis of creativity, it's kind of the redigestion of everything that's already existed before.
SPEAKER_02100%. Like it's not creating anything new, it may be kind of regurgitated and feels new.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's regurgitated. Yeah, it's a good word.
SPEAKER_02It feels novel, but in reality, there's no creativity there. It's just a recomputation. So yeah, it's uh new world.
SPEAKER_01Do you think the uh Sam Altman types and are we getting along? Sam Altman types are trying to make a god out of it.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I'd listen. By intent. No, I I mean if you take him at his word, no.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I I think Sam Altman is maybe I should have gone with Peter Teal, because he seems to be the one that's trying to make something divine out of AI. Yeah. Peter Teal's an interesting fella.
SPEAKER_02Um I mean, I give him the benefit of the doubt. Um I think they see it as a tool um that's gonna better humanity. Um now that doesn't mean it's going to better humanity, and we can make arguments all day long, whether it is helping humanity or harming humanity. Um and I I see the merits in both sides of the argument. Um we we talked about social media and AI um a few weeks ago. You asked me which one I would rather get rid of. Um and I changed my mind in the midst. It was like you're right, I think social media is more damaging than AI is. Yeah. AI is more of a tool, social media. Um we are the tool. Um and the product. And the product. And yeah, and social media is using us to to basically just sell ads. Um there's there's very little benefit in other than Facebook marketplace, which is cool. I like it. Um there's very little benefit um to social media that actually makes us better, smarter, more kind.
SPEAKER_01There's very little of that. So yeah. Plus, I don't think social media helps a surgeon be a better surgeon or can do protein folding. It it seems like that just a new technology, right? Is and this is probably with every technology in the history of humanity, is that the the capacity for it to better humanity is probably only equaled by its capacity for the destruction of humanity. But I don't know, with social media, it seems like it's definitely way in the destruction, like unintended consequences. It's like if you take unintended consequences dialed up to the 15th power, that's social media. But I mean, the with the things that AI has done as far as you know chemical compounds, and if if you wanted to see a cure for cancer, I would think that researchers using AI to accelerate their research is probably gonna be where the cure for cancer comes from. Yeah. I'm just spitballing here, but I think coming from social media, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_02Well, and it's probably not gonna come from the the the typical processes in the past, you know, where we are making computations ourselves, we are trial and error. It's like AI is going to speed that up incredibly fast.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah. And and then you Because it can do that billion computations per millisecond, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and then you kind of this is this is where I've always been like, what are we getting into? But like then you pair which is a burgeoning technology, but quantum computing, which can compute what, millions, billions times faster than our modern day computations.
SPEAKER_01There's yeah, and then it generates less heat and everything like that.
SPEAKER_02So you you pair quantum computing with AI. You know? Yeah. I mean that the the fastest supercomputer today is still having a hard time mapping the human genome, right? Whereas they say that I think the human genome has been mapped, but it has, but I'm saying it still takes at large computing power, takes a long time. Sure. Whereas, you know, quantum computing in the future, they say they can take your they can take a snapshot of your breath, it'll it'll map in seconds your human genome, which took decades before to try to try to map the human genome, and now just in a in the in the blink of an eye, and could even print a a medication or a a fix, a cure for your malady in in the moment. I mean, just like the it's mind bottling. The mind bottling the the potential is kind of cool, but at the same time, like concerning.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So with anything, it's just uh you kind of have to have a nice definition of what it means to be human. Yeah. You know, because if if you're human but you have so many prosthetics and you've run so many chemicals that are you human anymore? Are you human anymore?
SPEAKER_02I don't know. And you're responding with all your emails um using AI. Yeah. And you write your books using AI.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that's where I've drawn the line too, because you know, I I have written a couple hundred pages of a novel during the sort of height of the AI craze, you know, and my worry is that I didn't use AI, but then you put it into an AI like detector, and it's like, oh yeah, this was totally written by AI. But I didn't. So, but I I definitely take issue with people trying to pass off AI as human creativity. Like, if I have an image that I have just put a prompt into whatever AI tool and it's done it, and then I just say that it was it's based on my own creativity, in my humble opinion, that's that's false. Yeah, yeah. Because I have the utmost respect for a painter who will take a canvas and a bunch of different colors of paint and create something truly amazing, beautiful, and you know, worth worth being in a museum. But if an AI can just do it in 5.8 microseconds, then it's like it has no worth because I I I still put the utmost value on human consciousness and creativity. And I put value on AI as a tool for the augmentation of human endeavor only, not a replacement of creativity.
SPEAKER_02I think I saw it on YouTube, but like I believe it was YouTube, I may be wrong, but there was um a little tag below the the some of the videos that was AI generation involved or something like that. And I hope that continues because I want to know what's genuine, yeah, and what's again just a regurgitation of humanity through a language model.
SPEAKER_01Because for a while there is so easy to tell, but it's getting harder and harder every day.
SPEAKER_02It's getting better, better, and at some point we're not gonna be able to tell. So um AI, AI detection software where we can know what's real and what's fake, because people are gonna crave the real, you know?
SPEAKER_01I think so. I used to think that people would be fooled by the unreal, like the virtual reality or something, but then we see the failure of the metaverse and stuff like that, and then it got me thinking, it kind of switched places and said, I think, yeah, in some in some way, I think the majority will rebel against the unreal, you know, and and and they will know and they will crave what what the reality of things.
SPEAKER_02I hope so. I think that's a good thing, place for culture to be is craving the reality.
SPEAKER_01Crave the real.
SPEAKER_02Crave the real.
SPEAKER_01That's a good tagline. Maybe that's for Taco Bell. They could just say crave the real. Taco Bell of all places, crave the real.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think with that, I think we solved AI.
SPEAKER_01We we have hit the tip of the iceberg on a subject that could go on for infinitum. Yeah. At infinitum.
unknownI don't know.
SPEAKER_01To infinity and beyond? Infinitum. Whatever. All right. Well, as we always say. As we always say.