Tim Cox chats with Tijana Kovacevic

In this show, Tim Cox chats with Tijana Kovacevic, a people‑focused HR leader who’s spent her career helping fast‑growing companies scale without losing their soul.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Hello Tiana and welcome. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Thank you. Um super well and nice to see you again.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Yeah, lovely to see you too. Thank you very much for your time today. Uh so we have an I have an introduction. I want to let people know who you are, or a little bit about who you are, and I've got some notes here. So I'm going to read from this, Tiana. If there are any glaring errors or things you want to add in, just I know you'll I know you'll say, so feel free. So Tiana is a people-focused HR leader who spent her career helping fast-growing companies scale without losing their soul. She's held senior roles across tech, travel, and consumer brands, including Time at Wise, Coca-Cola HBC, Qatar Airways, and Refurbed. And just over a year ago, she stepped into the chief people officer role at Phenom, where she's guiding the company through an exciting phase of European expansion. Tiana is known for blending sharp talent strategy with a genuine passion for building cultures where people can thrive. Does that sound like Tiana?

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Sounds about right.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

Okay, good.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Then we'll add along the way.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We should probably do do the intro, do that intro at the beginning, and then come back to another intro that we've sort of written and summarized as as we go through. Okay. So the first thing we do on this show is invite you to press pause. And my first question is what are you pressing pause on for the next half hour or so?

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Wow, that's a deep question.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

We start off deep.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Yeah, I'm pressing pause on all notifications, all uh technology, right? Is uh in a wider uh sense, uh, because I realize that's the that's the biggest um probably obstacle to pausing today. So all technology off, all notifications off, uh fully uh and intentionally here present today with you.

unknown 2:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Well, thank you. Thank you very much for that and and being so intentional. Just a quick follow-up question on that. How often do you do that, Tiana?

SPEAKER_00 2:41

I try to, I do it uh more and more now in my personal life, where I became aware increasingly how much of my time and intent and focus is actually shattered by constant notifications from all sorts of channels, from Slack to LinkedIn to you know WhatsApp and uh this idea that uh everybody and anything can reach you uh and and have access to you anytime. Uh so I'm doing that more and more in my personal life, uh, but I increasingly see that this will be actually something I need to do more and more in my business life as well. Um, and that if I think about a day as an let's say 8 to 10 to 12 hour working day, actually I do believe with all the enablement we have through technology and everything, it's actually going to be more about pausing than about working, uh you know, full force. So pause, focus, right? Uh intentionally be mindful in the moment to think right rather than to react as as most of our days happen today.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Yeah, yeah, I understand that. So that's interesting. So think actually, as you go on, more time pause than actually working in a way. Not that pausing, I'm not saying pausing is not working.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Yeah, pausing actually, I I would I would really uh I I I actually I I know this sounds maybe maybe my boss wouldn't like to hear this. But I I actually think pausing is working today. Uh I I think at a certain point in your career, uh it's actually more about, as I said, pausing, reflecting, uh intentionally choosing your actions than reacting, right? So so uh as much as it sounds counterintuitive, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Yeah, that's interesting. Uh and I hope your boss does listen. Uh and I hope it makes a good conversation afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

This is my last day in the company.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

I'm sure, I'm sure that's not the case. I'm sure that's not the case. Okay, so stay in um with that pause theme. Uh, and so you've mentioned that you're trying more and more to do that, and and certainly personal life, so more so or more successful perhaps at it at the moment than the business life, but following the conversation you'll have now with your boss, then it'll it'll it'll change, I'm sure. Um, and I know how hard you work. We've we've known each other for for a number of years now, and I know how much you you put in to your work. And and I'm just wondering, aside from the shorter pauses, what when have you had to take a pause in in your working life?

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Yeah. Unfortunately, only when my health uh has uh uh let's say betrayed me. Uh not maybe for for my own fault, right? But for example, uh uh when I broke my leg about now two and a half, three years ago, uh then I actually had to pause. Uh and and uh honestly, in a weird way, I I found I remember thinking, right, I and this is going to sound really uh like not a great mental health statement, right? But like I remember thinking I broke my leg and I was like, whew, finally I have some time for myself. And uh and and and you know, and and honestly, I'm not the only one that thinks in this way, unfortunately, right? So uh we we only sometimes as humans get to pause when when we you know face uh uh a really such like adversity that it's almost like the only way is to pause, right? So uh and and that's concerning, right? That's that's definitely not a sustainable way of thinking. Uh so that was the time when I really paused and when I uh realized that now there's some you know physical because I I have a big traveling schedule as well, so like I now have like physical boundaries to to actually travel and achieve everything that that I want. Uh so at least, for example, for the physical aspect, it meant that I'm in one place for a while, uh, which definitely uh you know does also affect how I feel mentally uh and and focused and you know to to pause. However, you know, just after my surgery and everything, I didn't really pause that much mentally speaking, right? So I because now with remote working, you can do everything remotely, right? Uh but but at least this physical aspect of pause was also, let's say, good to rebalance uh uh you know what's really and it's not about what's important, it's more about uh really thinking uh what exactly are you trying to achieve while running? I I think we we forget that uh uh often. And obviously in high growth companies where I'm working as well, that's even more common because you know, companies that are growing, I don't know, 50% year on year. I mean, the the number tells you already that things need to scale incredibly fast, right? So the the question is always how do you scale yourself, right? So uh and maybe the only way to scale yourself is to pause. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

So um, and I hear that, and I know that you you've you're smiling and you're laughing, and I imagine that the the leg break was there was nothing nothing good about it on one level, um, but it it sounds like it it did create a pause of sorts, the physical pause, so that perhaps not traveling so much, but quite quickly you you you were back mentally. Um so just pick picking up on on that. Um the big question is when you're growing you know sort of 50% year on year, how do you scale yourself? And you said that's a big big question. Um, what do you know about the answer to that question so far?

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Yeah, they I think they change uh with the technology, they change in terms of how do you scale yourself, uh, because there is actually now a lot more technology enablement that can, let's say, truly take some of the things off your back that that you know could potentially be blockers to you thinking about strategy or or something like that. So on the operational part, I would say technology enables us to scale ourselves, right? Not to be you know buried in some operational work, manual work, and anything like that. Uh however, what doesn't help though is uh the fact that despite the illusion that we optimized for the operational uh parts and you know manual parts, and now maybe you don't need an EA to you know book things for you, or like you know, maybe that's all agentic. Uh however, right, I I constantly like to kind of warn the whole business as well that our you know cognitive ability to make certain number of decisions a day will not depend on, oh, just because now I have access to this data or that data, that doesn't mean that I can scale myself 10x because that's a buzzword now that I hear a lot in the AI world. Like, oh I gotta like employees gonna always 10x. Uh and I kind of honestly like I hate a bit these buzzwords, like I find them very, you know, uninformed uh and you know, they go against uh uh generally like neuroscience. And I'm not talking about my personal opinion or anything like that. Like, I I don't like when we make these uh you know bold statements uh that don't actually mean anything, right? They're not really measured. Uh so I do believe the problem of scaling yourself will be actually again guarding the time and putting focus for a limited number of hours into the most important decisions and actually knowing more and more when to pause. So, what's your cognitive limit that day, right? And saying, you know what? Like, yeah, today I did like maybe like five hours of work, but I made all of these decisions that might cost millions, right? And actually then pausing intentionally, not thinking that, like, oh yeah, yeah, I'll just continue and you know make another few million of decisions. Like, no, actually, they're going probably will be poor decisions, so it's better that you pause. Uh, so that's why I'm kind of coming back to to this um whole initial point, right? About like, as you said, probably also the point of your podcast, right? Learning how to pause uh intentionally, uh and not thinking of pause as a blocker to performance. Because I think we have a lot of unhealthy beliefs that come from this world of buzzwords now, you know. Uh I like to call it like founder pseudoscience uh that we have a lot uh uh today in the world, like right, like you know, some some company scales maybe 100x, right? And they achieve uh you know amazing success. And then we say, Oh yeah, what did they do? And then, you know, just because they said something, that becomes it's like a post-truth society, right? So for me, it's actually increasingly again more important to be super factual, to always have you know evidence and science-based approach to claiming anything, which unfortunately I don't think we are in those times anymore.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

It seems it doesn't seem to be the fashion at the moment, yeah. It doesn't seem to be that, and I and I understand it on one level, you know, when when leaders talk about 10x, it's it's quite exciting, it's simple, and and I guess it gets people on board to a certain extent, but uh, but I agree, I I think there's the a short, short lifetime for for for those sorts of of statements. And I I love the point around AI being there to support perhaps on the operational side, but the fact that we're not able to replicate ourselves in in in the same way. Um and uh yeah, I like the idea. It's it's almost um, and I'm not saying you're you're gambling here, but there was the mention of uh you know money, so you've made some good decisions. That doesn't mean you then throw it all in on another decision, you know, pull yourself back, take a deliberate pause, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

Exactly. And and um, right, like being aware of of your own uh limitations, right? I am the first person that would always you know jump into this like nothing is impossible mindset, right? So I don't doubt that uh I lack uh you know ambition, devotion, passion, or anything like that to think in this way. However, as I said, I actually believe we need to you know turn this narrative into something more, you know, again, not on the side of some like caution or some paranoia, right? But kind of like actually understand that yeah, while we give this, uh, because I always have this conversation with people, like, okay, so you know, even in the post-uh agentic world where you know all these agents are talking to themselves and it's not people collaborating and whatever, I always ask, like, and who's gonna take responsibility, right? For for something going wrong or going right, because you know, people will want to claim something, right? So who's gonna be in the end then? Like, who are we going to you know, reward or blame when things go right or wrong, right? And that question is yet to be, I would say, answered.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Yeah, yeah. Who's accountable?

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Yeah, who's accountable?

SPEAKER_02 15:01

It's good, it's generally a good question, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Especially with all the things going on in the world, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Indeed.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Accountable.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

And doesn't matter actually.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

Yeah, one one of the reasons, and you alluded to it before around pausing, is to pause to to adapt. So going going back to the pod title of podcast, pause adapt, flourish. So what I what I'm wondering about is you mentioned there pausing in the day and pausing actually on your decision making and knowing that you can't just 10x yourself and and and keep going. Um I'm wondering at the moment, if if we pause to take a look at things and then adapt the way that we're doing it, perhaps more more strategically, what what are you having to look to adapt around at the moment, Tiana? What what are the challenges you're you're facing?

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Uh definitely the again coming back to technology, the the speed of uh development of technology, and then uh in my world, uh um the impact and implications of that on people, the size of the organization, the make of the teams, the capabilities we need on the teams. Uh and um as much as you know, we would like to think that again this uh optimizes something or or whatever, I I would say it's uh it's interesting, like that it's actually impossible also to measure if if you're right, because like you know, conditions change, right? And you don't know if you would make this result with those conditions or or or some other, right? And even if you you can never isolate all the factors to to, you know, so I would say the main themes is kind of this like dealing with uncertainty of of what's coming, right? Uh, but then dealing with uncertainty in a way that you are also comfortable with uncertainty, right? That you you which is not very human, like humans like certainty, right? So, but kind of accepting that like, yep, nothing is certain, right? Like being uh very agile to change uh uh if if things need to change, not attaching yourself personally to things, uh which becomes, I would say, then a counterintuitive uh to you know, building like an ambitious culture or like a culture where people are passionate, right? So those are some of the challenges that I see. Like, okay, so we're developing this technology, fine, we're using it, fine, right? What does this mean to the employees' relationship to work, uh, employees' relationship with each other, employees' relationship with technology? We can also see some you know, research is coming up in terms of this engagement that people are feeling while observing this technology and correcting, let's say, agents' work, right? And that actually it is now you know more frustrating and cognitively hard to uh correct the work of the agent and that it disengages you more than if you were to, let's say, tell your colleague and give them feedback about like, hey, maybe this should be done in this or that way, right? And then as I said, if we don't if we don't learn again how to pause and not uh blindly or uh you know accept something without like critical thinking, right? Evaluate things very holistically, kind of like, okay, so this this brings us some really good things, right? But like I mean, obviously, there is also to everything in the world, right? There is like a good and a bad side to things, right? So, how do you evaluate and how do you not uh I don't have the illusion of controlling this technology or anything like that, but just like being aware, right, where it can really help us, where it will hinder us, what are the consequences of uh this? Um, and and then as I said, pausing enough times to really look at that uh rather than being fascinated by all these right, like you know, good aspects of it, but then not thinking uh uh about uh uh potential longer-term uh consequences.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Yeah, love that, Tiana. Thank you. There's loads in there. So um three three things uh uh that really stood out amongst that. One one was the the the counterfactual and and having to be comfortable with okay, making a choice. Um we don't know what would have happened if we'd have done the other thing, but you know, we make a decision and and and and we we we roll with it. Um the one of the other points was was there towards the end about relationships, and you know, I really interested in the relationship between the individual and the AI agent in terms of correcting the work. So you're quite right. If if you're helping to give feedback to one of your colleagues, at least there's a conversation that goes on there that's a there's a human conversation, and if there's frustration, the frustration can come out and it can be played out, whereas uh that's unlikely to be the case, it's gonna be a very different um response that you receive, and maybe it's a a more productive response, but maybe that doesn't feed you feel right around the soul, it won't feel right, it feels different.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

And and I I really want to share an anecdote, and uh you know, this is not too because this technology technology is improving as well, so so this might not be the case in in six months from now. All right, however, I would just like to share one right one occasion where I actually went heavily into prompting something and like you know, went into like Claude, do this, do that, right? Uh, you know, realize then kind of the I will maybe uh mention that later, not to deviate now, but uh uh I I kind of prompted it. I had a really clear goal, I had like clear you know measures of success, how this should be created and whatever. And then Claude said, like, yes, I'm doing this and I'm doing exactly what you said. Would you like me to include this, this, this, and that? And I was like, Oh, but Claude, you're really amazing, like you know, you're doing this range of and uh, you know, it actually pushes out something that is completely not only it lied, uh, you know, because I actually don't want to call this hallucination. You know, I don't want to actually I don't even want to call it a lie because that's a human behavior. Uh and I don't, I I still don't want to uh talk about this technology as human, uh nor surpassing human as they like to call it. Uh but uh um it it really gave very incorrect and untruthful information that actually did something which it didn't, right? And it spent tokens, right? Let's not forget this is not a technology we get. Free right, yeah. So I was like, Hey Claude, why did you do that? Right, so why did you lie to me all this time and even prompted me with additional questions saying that you will this will you return the tokens now that you spent? Right? Claude obviously apologized in a very submissive way. Um, so I I would say, and that was honestly a very frustrating experience, right? Like, you know, it I could argue, I mean, we could now do, you know, uh brain imaging and whatever, right? But uh kind of I could argue, yeah, okay, I had similar experiences with people too.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Uh however, this was way kind of like, you know, somebody made you believe that they're doing all of this in the very moment, right? And then they bluntly kind of just said, oh, actually, you're right. I I didn't do any of that. And I led you, and then you know, Claude admitted, I led you to believe that I was actually doing that. And I wasn't, right? I was like, oh, I was a bad boy, right? Uh so I I I just always wonder about like how these occasions scale at organizational level. So this is me having that conversation, but how when we when we 10x, when we, you know, we are 650 people, for example, when we 650 people X that right, yeah, what does that mean? Uh so that's the the what's the impact of of this at scale?

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Yeah, yeah. I yeah, that's uh it's just it's an answer. I'm not sure I want to know the answer. It's um I mean I probably should. I should be curious, but it but it feels a bit scary. I uh it's it's not the same. And I also had an experience with um, it wasn't Claude, it was another one. Um, but had an experience with them. I actually asked um, what do you know about the company that I that I work at? What do you what do you know about management futures? And it came back with some information, it came back with lots of accurate information, and then there was some information there that I was thinking, well, I've never heard that. And I you know, I've I've been working with the organization for over 15 years and and you know knew the organization before then. I was thinking, well, where's this come from? So I asked that question. Well, where where have you got the information around those two points? And it came back and said, Oh uh, no, it's not right. That's not the information. I'm thinking but anybody else who's asking about an organization, they just take the answer. But there was nothing, there was no justification for it at all. Um so yeah, um, frustrating. So uh I I have another question for you, and um I believe that you uh penned an article that said um oops is a neck is a step to your next wow. So tell us about what tell us about oops. I said whoops, but it's oops.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Whoops or whoops, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Either one.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

I I really believe in in making mistakes. I I actually and also believe in uh you know uh accepting them uh openly, especially in a leadership position. Uh I kind of really hate when people and and unfortunately I'll also I'm I'm also not seeing that behavior lately. Sometimes, you know, accepting that you made a mistake, right? Kind of just like saying very humbly, like, yeah, you know, actually, like that was completely stupid what I did. Like uh I I I miss people saying that, you know, and and um I I do believe, right, that uh I don't believe, right? Like for me, negligence is one thing, right? But making mistakes while working, I mean, completely another thing. Uh so I don't also like this uh unhealthy attitude to like, oh yeah, now we made like 70 times the same mistake. I think that's stupidity. Like, you know, I think we we went at one point a bit too much into this kind of uh you know growth, uh, you know, let's now do coaching. No, we just need to admit uh this was a really bad mistake, and it happened like fifth time for no freaking reason, right? So I also don't like to sugarcoat mistakes. Um but uh I do believe in order to do anything, right? And honestly, whoever has ever worked hard has made mistakes, right? So so this idea that you work hard and not make mistakes really kind of gets me into this very angry mode when people uh when people uh uh claim those things, right? Or then they don't speak openly about the mistakes they made. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

So I don't want to take you to angry mode. Um and I do have a quick follow-up to that though. How do you because I understand that so um it sounds like we what you're aiming for is a place where people do own up to their mistakes, and mistakes are okay. Um mistakes not admitting to any mistakes at all is is kind of not okay because it's uh but equally just thinking you can make mistake after mistake, same ones over and over time is not. So it sounds like you're looking at a bandwidth there. How do you how do you convince people that it's okay to make a mistake with within that bandwidth? Because there have been a different organization working with different leaders. How do you how do you convince them?

SPEAKER_00 27:38

I honestly for the longest time, right? I did this leadership development, what you're doing too and and you know I I came to conclusion that um you can only you can only really role model that, right? You can role model that and then uh just like someone said the other day, one of our uh employees uh said, like, oh my god, like you really made an impression on me when you came to a call five minutes later, and you said I there was really no good reason for me to be late for five minutes, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:19

I have no excuse.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Like you know, I was just like looking at my phone, not looking at my laptop, the meeting started, and here I am, right? Like, I'm sorry. Uh, you know, and just uh uh being human, because I think what uh what makes people um how to say, like I I just learned this more and more about my own style, right? That uh actually it is my humanity that leaves this impression of authenticity of allowing people to be themselves and uh uh you know to tell me about things because uh ultimately I always ask leaders like, would you like your people to tell you what actually is wrong? Or like would you like them to behave with you differently than they would behave with their colleagues and and whatever, right? Not to not to, of course, uh discuss anything about let's say formal authority to make a decision, right? Like, not kind of trying to mix this, like, oh yeah, now empowerment means they're just doing whatever. No, that has nothing to do with it, but it's more about like if you are role modeling, kind of owning up to your mistakes, uh, but then also fixing them and showing how this mistake is owned. For example, my quick way of owning a mistake is like, hey, you know, yeah, I was wrong, right? Let me see how else we could do this, right? Like, you know, who can help me figure this out, or like, you know, write a notion page or whatever. Uh, let's get some data, or like, you know, what the comments of other people, right? Uh, today, today's work with the technology that we have can be so collaborative that that it's really not about you know making that like perfect piece of work, and then like, oh, I'm scheduling a presentation to show everybody how smart I am and like beautiful slides that I created, right? It's actually the opposite, right? You have a concept and you have some like rough idea, and then you include the relevant people, and you're like, hey, why don't you critique this, right? And I always say, like, you know, uh, suggestions, questions, violent reactions. Uh, and uh and you know, and then I invite people early on so that you know we avoid this kind of like oh, this is my I I really believe in this like co-creation, but then with co-creation, you also allow yourself to be wrong, you allow yourself to be corrected, right? Uh, so I really believe it's role modeling, and then these practical ways of working where you show people how to do that in a constructive way.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Yeah, yeah. Thank you, and I I I love that. So, what are those three things again?

SPEAKER_00 31:02

The violent that ended with violent reactions, and uh suggestions and uh violent reactions.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

Thank you. I will make a note of this, and um, you mentioned um the humanity, you mentioned and and I certainly I I think it's one of your super strengths, Tiana, knowing you for for as I said for a number of years. Um, it's one of your super strengths, and you've certainly turned around to me before and and said something along the lines of Tim, what is it you want to say? Which is great. Um, so thank thank you for that. I have uh a couple of questions just to close us out. So we're moving to the the flourish part um now. So um I'm just interested, what what does flourish mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Good question. Um I would definitely say flourishing means um being comfortable actually with uh yourself. Very simple. No, no, I I don't think uh it means uh different things, like it means actually very different things for very different people. Uh, but ultimately, you know, can you look yourself in the mirror? Are you comfortable with what you're doing, what you're saying, uh, how you're acting? I think that's what it all boils down to. So for me, flourishing is really having that uh again, like being authentic, uh, not uh, you know, again, in this, like, you know, like sometimes I think people confuse this authenticity authenticity for for some you know the extreme kind of version of like me being myself despite other no, like I I don't uh but like really like being comfortable in my own uh uh uh uh skin with what I say, being comfortable again and admitting when I made a mistake or when we need a discussion about something, uh being comfortable actually to also say no, uh being comfortable to to you know give some really critical feedback as well, uh, sometimes like often missed. I think many like we still deal, I I I'm gonna repeat this another millions of times. One of the biggest obstacles to management and leadership in the companies is the the lack of courage to actually you know sit somebody with someone and say, like, hey, you know, this is not going well, right? And just say, just like sit there for pause, right? Like just say that and pause, and then you know, just to like speak your truth, right? Not in an offensive way or like some just like be a human, kind of like, hey, I don't think you know it is working, right? And I believe we probably kind of feel the same. It's impossible that one person thinks everything is amazing. That would be really uh, you know, some some some other problem. So I I would just say being comfortable with uh, you know, as I said, like saying no, saying like uh uh giving the bad news, giving the good news, uh, and ultimately being at peace with it.

SPEAKER_02 34:05

Yeah. Okay, there's there's loads to love within that. And I that that that being yourself, it it when you were saying that and and talking about it, it it felt like you're sort of almost growing into yourself and exploring those bits of yourself so that you can be yourself, um and and and do that, and yeah, and the be human, uh, and again, impossible to you know to be fully comfortable with yourself uh unless you you know tried all of this, all of those things, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:36

It's uh you know, for for me, right, growth and this like flourishing is uh you know, it's not even about like I remember us having this conversation over a dinner actually, Tim. Uh it's not even about right, uh, I I learned that. Uh actually, thanks to our conversation, I learned that it's not even sometimes about right, like using your full potential. Because I I was uh you know, I was a bit uh a lot about that, like oh yeah, you need to use your full, you know, do you want to, right? Like we all have potential for for many things, right? But actually, like, do you want to? Do you need to? So uh, you know, whatever again, whatever makes you comfortable, right? Uh so uh so so that's the that's my larishing.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

That's great, that's great. And I I I think um the do you need to question is is is is a good good question. Just because you can or just because you have the potential to, do you need to?

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Um exactly, exactly. And and maybe right, like some people I I I see that more and more, and and um I actually believe this will be uh uh I again I hate making this again like some big statements or you know, and and whenever I talk about these things, I I you know kind of like comfortably say I feel, right? I do feel in my con because like I I am uh I am known for very honest and uh conversations with with people, you know, whether it's uh a guy next to me in the airplane or or I don't know where where else. But I see more and more that uh obviously, you know, old topic of technology and everything, right? People are you know more disconnected, more actually like hungry for just like a this like pause and and you know adapt conversation and like something simple, like you know, you realize like, oh my god, no one has asked this guy, like, hey, you know, how are you? And I know it's again like probably many people are talking about this now, right? But uh I I do believe that uh when you speak to many people now, everybody, and and this is not about like, for example, age, right? So I I I increasingly saw like we had trends like uh uh Gen Z going for the flip phone, right? Uh for the Motorola. Uh there's like a serious trend, right? And then you know, my my question is uh what I started noticing in my own behavior, or like when we discussed this amongst friends, right? You know, my question is when we now uh have this AI to generate billions of with videos with a tiger hugging uh the baby, or like with uh I don't know, the rabbit becoming a cat, I don't know, right? Like all that weird stuff, and then you know, when you when you look at all of that, right? The my my key question, and this is like really for me, this is a big behavioral economics question. It's not even about like now, oh what would I like? It's a business question for me. Yeah, okay. So while we're all watching this, like Rabbit uh becoming a cat, and uh as I said, tiger hugging a baby, okay, are we engaged? Do we really seek uh generated content, right? I'm not sure. I I'm you know like I'm seeing more and more people like you know, actually, this is really stupid. Like I don't think I'm coming back to this, right? And then if all of us on the other side, on the business side, if all of us are now rushing to generate hundreds of videos as part of our marketing, uh let's say uh push um campaign or whatever, right? Okay, who's gonna watch that if everybody's doing the same? Uh so you know that's why I'm saying all of these really simple human questions uh come back to the same business questions that I'm kind of like, okay, guys, how does this scale?

SPEAKER_02 38:45

Yeah, absolutely. And what's the what's the impact of that? Um, if we're gonna go down that route. Yeah, brilliant. Tiana, thank you very much for your time today. I've uh I've enjoyed it and I've learned some some more things. Every time I speak with you, I'll learn more things. Um, so thank you very much for for joining us, and I look forward to catching up again soon.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Thank you. This was almost like a coaching session, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Right?

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Maybe I I know your you know, I know you're real intent here, right? So this is like hey, let's just be really clear.

SPEAKER_02 39:18

There's no invoice, there's no invoice coming your way, Tiana.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

But it's actually a shadow coaching session. Uh but it's uh it's uh I hope you'd enjoyed it. It's a great way to pause and and yeah, uh adapt and uh flourish for the for the rest of my day and week. Uh thank you.

SPEAKER_02 39:38

Thank you, thank you very much.