The Operator’s Seat Podcast
Leadership from the 2nd Chair.
The Operator’s Seat Podcast
The Founder vs. Operator Mindset | The Operators Seat E2
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What makes the relationship between a founder and an operator successful?
In this episode, Sabrina and Landon dive into one of the most important dynamics in any growing business: the partnership between visionary founders and the leaders who help turn those visions into reality. They discuss trust, communication, leadership from the second chair, navigating disagreements, building credibility, understanding different perspectives, and how passion and purpose fuel long-term success.
They also answer a listener question about the differences between a leadership mindset and a business-owner mindset, sharing practical insights from their own experiences working alongside founders and leading teams.
In this episode:
How operators and founders can work together effectively
Building trust and earning responsibility
Why communication is more complicated than it seems
The importance of forethought and leadership presence
Managing perception in the workplace
Passion vs. purpose in leadership
Understanding the pressures business owners face
How to navigate disagreements without damaging relationships
If you're a business owner, COO, operations leader, manager, or aspiring leader, this episode offers practical lessons for building stronger teams and healthier organizations.
👍 Like, subscribe, and leave a comment with your questions for future episodes!
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#Leadership #Operations #BusinessGrowth #COO #Entrepreneurship #TeamLeadership #BusinessOwner #TheOperatorsSeat #ProfessionalDevelopment #LeadershipPodcast
Welcome to episode two of the operator seat. I'm your host, Landon.
SPEAKER_00And I am Sabrina, your co-host. Welcome back.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we're super excited. Another day, another podcast.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03So um, what are we going to talk about?
SPEAKER_00Ooh, so we thank you so much for submitting questions. And by the way, before I get off on that topic, we do have our lights plugged in today. So if you are watching on YouTube, fingers crossed, we are professionals going forward, and that won't ever happen again. If you missed our first episode, our lights went off at the very end.
SPEAKER_03The very end. So we're totally newbies.
SPEAKER_00Yes. You know, a little newbie action. That's fine. Everyone has it. Yes. But yes, we are back. And thank you so much to everyone that has already submitted um questions. I feel like we got a really decent response.
SPEAKER_03I was pleasantly surprised. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So thank you so much if you've submitted. And if you haven't, please do. It made us so happy that people were submitting questions and wanted to hear our opinions for whatever they're worth. So thank you.
SPEAKER_03They value them if they're listening. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So we do have our first question. Do you want to start with the question or like more of the topic that we're we're going to be discussing today?
SPEAKER_03Uh let's start with the topic because I feel like the question goes along really well about with that. So yeah, I think if we kind of like talk about our view on the topic and then move into the question and kind of give our point of view from the question.
SPEAKER_00Yes, for sure. And I yeah, I definitely think we chose this topic because we had a few different questions and that they kind of all related to this. So the topic that we would love to talk through today is, you know, how we're working together with the founders of the firm and how an operator um works with the owner of the company or the founder of the company, um, and how you can make that relationship work really well, especially when you have different strengths and different viewpoints. Um yeah. So I know you have, we both have had a lot of experience working one-on-one with owners or operators, I'm sorry, not operators. That that would be me, um, or founders, because sometimes an owner is not the same as a founder either. Um, but yeah, do you want to weigh in first?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, definitely. I am it's such an important relationship, a dynamic. And you know, um, there's days that it works really well, and there's days that it doesn't work so well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, but I feel like, you know, really understanding that dynamic and um especially as an operator, understanding the thought process of the founder, because you know, no matter um what their Enneagram is number is or, you know, who they are, they're all I feel like um business owner mindsets, they um entrepreneurs, and you know, there's a certain mindset with that. Um, so it definitely is a dynamic that you have to learn as an operator to be, you know, the leader in the second chair. Um, and so it and it's kind of playing that second chair of okay, what do I have to do to make sure that the team is focused and taken care of and happy? And what do I need to do to make sure that the founder is, you know, you're you're processing and uh implementing. That's the that's a word we use all the time. Yeah, you're implementing the founder's dream and the founders, you know, a lot of times the business is the founder's baby. Yeah. You know, they started it at some point in their life, and uh it's really hard to let go for them. Yes. Um, yeah, and and to give up control almost to trust, yeah. Yeah, trust is a big thing. Um, but leadership from the second chair, you know, uh, and and I'm not a founder, so you know, but I I feel like uh they in order to be successful and to not have everything continue to bottleneck to them, um, they have to give that trust. So they have to find somebody um who they can trust with their business and know that they're bought in as much as they are and has a passion for, you know, whatever the industry is for us, you know, financial services, but you know, it could be anything for anybody else. So um it's definitely an important relationship. It's one that, you know, you have to have um a founder and an um owner that work well with the operator and the operator that works well with the founder, and uh that dynamic doesn't mean you're always gonna agree. No. Um, but yeah, it's an important one to focus on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I think that's a good point that you hit on at the end is you're not always going to agree. It doesn't mean that you can't work well together. I think the beauty of a founder mindset or an owner mindset and the operator mindset is that you are different and you have different perspectives, and that's what makes the relationship work as long as you can communicate well. Yes. Um, you know, I I don't know if our founders are listening, Dana and Tyler, shout out. Um, I'm sure they will at some point. So I will say, Dana, Tyler, and I like we've grown a lot together, right? I've worked with them for almost 15 years now. And um, you know, we have such a good relationship because we've had such a long foundation. But I will say that it didn't really start. I feel like it was way more kind of team member owner dynamic for a long time, up until about maybe like three or four years ago when I became the uh official chief operating officer. I was the director of operations for a while before that. And it was still I was just running the day-to-day kind of in the weeds. I was just making sure the team was doing what they needed to be doing, but I wasn't necessarily entrusted with everything. Um, and so I think a way that I built that was just by being super willing to understand their perspectives and, you know, have them, have them, or have, I guess, me earn their trust um by by being on their side, right? Like a founder never wants to feel like one of the their vital team members or someone that they're promoting to, you know, a COO or d even a director of ops is kind of fighting with them or like against them. Yeah. Um, they're never going to release the reins to you if if you're constantly kind of showing up defensively, um, even if you don't agree. There's been plenty of times where I haven't agreed with Dana or Tyler on a certain topic or a certain subject. And it's very important for me to come from a place of learning and understanding their perspective. And then on the flip side of that, you know, them coming from a place of learning and we're just, we're on the same team. We might have different perspectives, but let's talk about them and let's come to a compromise. Um, and sometimes we don't come to a compromise, right? Like sometimes they are, you know, they want something done a certain way. And regardless of what I think about it, uh, my job is to go and implement that vision. Um, and you have to be able to kind of put aside your own personal beliefs um on how maybe something should be run uh operationally speaking, when it comes to the owner of the firm, right? Like that's our job is to carry things out even when maybe we don't like the process, but we're gonna tweak it and we're gonna make it um, you know, efficient and able to be, you know, streamlined with the rest of the team.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. That's the beauty of an owner, is uh, you know, they have the vision. Yeah. Um, and so and I think that's what I love most about operations is I'm able they're seeing the high level big picture and then they entrust us to deliver on that big picture with all the puzzle pieces. You know, we said I said last uh uh episode that it is uh my favorite about operations is the puzzle. And so, you know, taking the uh end goal, the high level dream, you know, whatever the founder wants to call it, and taking their business and uh really figuring out how to achieve that for them. Um that's what really drives me day to day and you know, just uh having somebody to trust you with that. Um, you know, uh at you know, my previous firm and then now it's it's such a it's a moment of realization, you know, it's it's wow, somebody's trusting me, yeah, Landon, uh, to help run their business. And you know, it's a great feeling. Um and like you said, it's it's uh sometimes you have to put away your own biases. Uh you know, I've told um all the teams that I've had uh the honor of leading that, you know, I will listen and you know I will bring forth you know, if I feel strongly about something, I will bring forth ideas, I will bring forth thoughts. But at the end of the day, you nor I own this business. And so, you know, if if uh the business owner makes a decision and you know, as the leader in the second chair, it's our job to make sure that the team feels heard and the team, you know, they felt listened to. And, you know, but we also make sure that they are aware that hey, sometimes decisions are made on a business basis, and as the owner, they know why, and the whole team doesn't always see the bigger picture. And you know, I've before I was a leader, I've been in that position too of having to understand why leadership was making decisions. Um, working at Disney, gosh, yeah, I can't imagine. You're you're sitting at the parks and you're like, what in the world is some of the leaderships doing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, but then you're four four years, you know, four months down the line, and you're like, oh, okay, that makes sense. You know, this is why they rolled out this this way. Or um, you know, even in a smaller business, um, like here, uh, you know, it doesn't have to be some major company corporation, one of the smaller businesses, you know, four months down the line, you may not agreed with a process, but then uh it's so much easier for you because that process was implemented.
SPEAKER_00Yes, for sure. I I definitely feel like our role in um the second chair would be to obviously I've somebody, one of our colleagues, you'll know, shout out Michelle Short if you're listening. Um, I remember she made such an impact on me with this statement, and I'll never forget it. And it's something you know I remind myself of daily, especially in frustration, is my team members are my client. So, you know, in our line of work, our the advisor has clients, right? Um, that they serve, which are just as much our clients, um, operationally speaking. But on the day-to-day, my team, our team is our client. And so we're there to make sure that they feel seen and heard and valued, but that we're also doing what's best for them. And sometimes, you know, you don't always see that. And even if we don't agree with a decision, we're aligned with the owners or, you know, the founders of the firm that are making the the decision. Um, and we carry it out through the rest of the team. And I think, you know, two things come to mind. But the first would be um understanding too that, and maybe you're you're not an ops leader right now, maybe you're listening as a team member or a manager or team lead. Um you have to understand too that yes, I do believe that it's very important to understand the why behind a decision. But one thing that you taught me early on, because I tend to overshare. I I kind of overshare a lot. It's easy to do. It is. And I probably share too much sometimes, or maybe I don't know what what I should share with the team. Um, because I always want to provide clarity, um, regardless of how I actually do it. Uh, my intention is always to provide clarity and communicate. So, but you taught me, you know, you were like, hey, some decisions, the yes, the team, you know, everyone loves to know the why, but sometimes it's not something to be shared in the moment. Like, you know, we can't always tell them the why because maybe we're not so sure about the other puzzle pieces, but we know this one fits here. Yeah. And so, you know, uh people always say, like, hey, we need to know the why, or we need to communicate the why to the team, which is true a majority of the time. But maybe it's not always true in certain, you know, decisions that are made about, you know, certain things with the business. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So and we don't always know the why either. That's true. Sometimes we're just doing what we were asked to do. And so I feel like a lot of times instead of saying, oh, because the founder said this or because the owner said this, um, you know, sometimes it's just like because that's the way it is. Because that's the best decision for the business. Um, and you know, I I firmly and I'll tell the team that too when we talk to them, I'll say, you know, if I can tell you the why, I 100% will. Um, but sometimes the why is just because. Yeah. And you know, I learned that not only from my parents, yeah, but also, you know, just working um throughout. And, you know, sometimes people just made decisions because they could. And you know, sometimes they're the right decisions, and you're like, you you see the why after, and you see, oh, the outcome is just so amazing. And you're like, you know what, I didn't need to know the why because I got to be part of the outcome.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, but then sometimes you're like, I wish I would have known the why, because I would have uh said something to maybe mitigate whatever happened. But you know, it's it's it's a balance. And, you know, as for those who are, you know, maybe not leaders that are listening, I think it's important to understand that uh exactly that, who maybe your aspiration is to be a leader. Um understanding that, you know, sometimes you're not always going to be a part of um decisions that executives make. Yeah. Um, you know, and and the earlier that you can accept that, the more uh balanced your professional career will be, I feel. Um and you you'll have less hard feelings. Um, you know, I that was just something I learned early on.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, and I think it's important, and obviously you have to be able to trust your leaders. Um, and that's a big thing too, is building trust with your team.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, but on top of that, or I should say, and on top of that, um yeah, I think it's the less reactive you can be as a team member to a decision that's made, um, the more that leadership really notices, I would say, especially if you're wanting to become a leader. Um I always notice the less reactive somebody is and and the more they just understand that, hey, we're gonna try this, or hey, we're, I know you worked really hard on this project, but we have to pivot now. Um, you know, the ones that are you can you can be frustrated about a decision. That's human nature. Yeah. Um, but the ones that kind of, you know, give it, give it a day or so and then they're back on it and they're just sharp and they're not complaining and they're just moving forward. Those are the ones that I notice the most um when it comes time for promoting somebody or you know, in the team. So I think that's also super important to know as a team member.
SPEAKER_03Definitely. No, it it uh that reminds me of the TikTok that's going around that, you know, it's saying, um, here I am a leader learning to not panic in a panic situation while my team is panicking. You know, that's the hardest thing to do. Yes. Um, and that's I relate to that so much. And, you know, I remember my first days, I think I was 25, that's almost 10 years ago. Not quite though.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, not quite. Don't age us, Landon.
SPEAKER_03But um, yeah, for when I was a leader at Disney, I uh I had to learn because I was I was leading people who were much older than me. And, you know, they were all looking at me. Um, this young kid that came from North Carolina.
SPEAKER_00I can just imagine your face. You're like, Oh my gosh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And so, you know, I was leading custodial cast members that worked for Disney for years. And so when we would have um, you know, something happen, or even in guest relations in a guest situation, um, you know, showing those leadership skills of not panicking in the situation, and there were plenty of times that I panicked. Yeah, but I I just learned during that time that, you know, you can't panic because, like you said, your leaders are are watching those who are calm and collective and kind of holding the room. And, you know, you don't have to be this authoritative person to hold the room, you know. Sometimes some of the most quiet people are the ones who uh really hold the room and calm the room during a time of panic.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03And you know, that's a true leadership skill. And you know, what I love about leadership is there's so many dynamics to it. There's, you know, there are the authoritative leaders, there are the quiet leaders, there are the kind leaders, and it's really finding the balance between all of them that I think really makes a successful leader.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I definitely think um leadership is forever a skill that can be learned. There it's a multitude of skills that can be learned over time and practice. You just have to practice them. And so it just takes, you know, being conscious of the things that you need to work on and just working on them every single day. I wasn't, I wasn't always um, I know it's hard for you to believe, Landon, but I was not always super opinionated. Um, not that I had to practice that much, but I think I just had to build confidence and um confidence in myself that I knew I know somewhat what I'm doing. I think leaders that feel like they know what they're doing all the time, they're not learning. I a lot of the time, a majority of the time, I feel like I know nothing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and I'm just trying to figure it out with everybody else. But yeah, I think it's just a learned skill and and listening to and learning how to communicate. Um, when we talk about, you know, with team members, but back to, you know, communicating with founders and really understanding their vision is super important for leading an effective team. And so I will say that that's something, you know, it's easy to say, oh, well, it all starts with communication, but it really does. But communication is much more complicated than we give it credit for.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's understanding how one another receive communication, understanding how one another delivers communication and you know, not to receive it uh in a way, in a perspective that the individual, whether it's leader to leader or leader to uh executive or leader to um report, you know, just not taking it incorrectly. And I think so many times communication can be taken incorrectly. Um, and so the huge por portion of it, especially with that um second chair leader and founder relationship.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, because it can be misconstrued so easily. Yes. And um, you know, for for founders and you know, they come up with so many ideas, and I don't know if you struggle with this, but I will take their ideas and run with it because I just, you know, I'm like, I take it as the Bible, and I had to learn not to. Yeah. Because, you know, they'll have one idea one day and then they'll be moved on to the next the next day.
SPEAKER_00Oh, do I know it? Shout out.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yeah, it is it it's hard not to, you know, and you know me, I just I I want to make sure you're happy and Dana and Tyler are happy. And so I will run with anything you guys ask. I know.
SPEAKER_00I know you were yes, you are the greatest. I think, yeah, I struggled with that too for a while. And I mean, I think to some extent I still struggle with it sometimes, but for the most part, because I know our my founder so well now, I know kind of what to take seriously. And people call me the mind, the Dana mind reader. Um, I can just tell, and it's because I know him so well. So I have the blessing of knowing him for a long time, but I have to remember that you don't know him as much as I know him. So, like we can be sitting there having the same conversation, and I know in my mind, okay, this is a problem, we'll revisit this project. That he's come up with, you know, next Monday at our meeting. And you are like, oh shit, I have to like get this started now. And I, you know, we sit right next to each other and I'm just like, it's okay. Yes. Don't worry about that right now.
SPEAKER_03Sabrina's probably tired of my questions because I'm constantly asking her, is this something I go with or I love questions as long as they're not stupid.
SPEAKER_00And you know what? I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be like fooling myself. There are there is such a thing as a stupid question.
SPEAKER_03You think so?
SPEAKER_00I do. Yeah. I do, but that's a topic for another day.
SPEAKER_03That's another episode. Yes. Are there really stupid questions? Back to communication. Stupid questions are part of communication.
SPEAKER_00It is. So how do you handle stupid questions? No. That'll be another episode. Definitely. Um, but yeah, I I definitely I lost track now. I'm like so ADHD.
SPEAKER_03No, no, you were talking about knowing Dana for so long. And you know, I that is such a blessing. But I think it's so important for that person in the second chair and that leadership person. Because if you can understand and anticipate the needs of the owner and the founder, then you're gonna make your team successful, you're gonna be successful, and then you're gonna make your founder successful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Because you're already three steps ahead of them and they're not even aware.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03Which I feel is part of our job as operations leader and you know, coming from the second chair.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, that's what makes everything successful, and that's what makes everything run behind the scenes.
SPEAKER_00Yes. You have to have, I feel like a a really prized skill of a successful operator is forethought. And I know you love that word because I use it all the time. I love forethought. I feel like, and I think people can practice that, right? Like anticipating needs, managing up, having the ability to think ahead. Um, it's just something that you have to practice. I have a whole framework on it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So, you know, it it is something that you can learn over time. But yeah, I I think not only understanding that communication styles can be different and perception can be different, but also getting the vision right. So understanding the vision completely. Um, I don't remember what it was that we were talking about the other day, but I was not understanding. Oh, I was in an I was meeting with um advisors of my firm. So I don't think you were in that meeting. I think you were meeting with another team, but um we were talking about a process for advisors. And Dana, who uh runs the sales team, is he's the founder. And um he was telling me about a process and how he wants things laid out. And I wasn't understanding because to me, the process that I had presented laid out exactly what he was saying that he wanted, but there was some sort of disconnect there, right? Because I felt like it was done. And I'm like, what are you talking about? This this is you want it to tell a story, this is telling a story. And in my mind, it's telling a story, it's telling a very good story. But I was like, Can you tell me, tell me how you envision this? Like, paint me a picture of what that looks like for you because paint me a picture, baby. I love that. Yes, please use that line with your founder because they a lot of times just we we don't communicate as well as we think we do, is what I've learned. Um, so I can have uh, you know, I can say, Hey Landon, do you want to go for a walk? And in my head, I picture us going for a walk, you know, a completely different way than you might picture us going for a walk. And so then we're on the walk and I'm like, what the hell? I just wanted to like chill. Landon claims he can walk like five miles an hour. So he and he's like speed walking. I'm like, I don't play. Yeah, you don't play with the walking. I just want to go for an easy breezy walk. But like that's such a a simple thing that we have completely different pictures on. Yeah. And we think that we're communicating by saying, Yeah, we'll go on a walk, but we don't know what it looks like.
SPEAKER_03No, yeah. My I I go on a walk to exercise.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You go, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I go to sweat. You basically don't mean you wouldn't know that, but no, I I I I definitely it it might have been an hour and ten minutes. I don't know, but it was close to that. But no, it it's definitely it's uh goes with you know what I always said. So when I joined the team, I came with two things. Yeah. Perception is everything, and you don't know what you don't know. Yes. Which, you know, that falls back to communication. Um, like you said, uh my perception of a walk may be different than your perception of a walk. Um, and then if I'm not communicating, I'm not gonna know what you're talking about or your expectations. And if you're not communicating, you're not gonna know my expectations, or I guess that's vice versa. If I'm not communicating, you're not gonna know my expectations. But yeah, and so when I met with the team here, I said those two things, and you know, um, the perception of everything can be taken multiple different ways, but yeah, it's so funny because I you see it throughout life, not just professionally but personally, you see it happen all the time. Yes, you know, and and people are perceiving things differently. And I think you have to acknowledge that on both sides. You have to acknowledge, okay, just because I'm perceiving it this way doesn't mean that's the actual truth. Um, and then on the other side of that, you have to know that everything that you're doing is being perceived some way, somehow, whether it's the way that you intend it to be or not.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03And so with this relationship between the second chair of the leadership and the founder, you know, you got to make sure that that perception is constantly communicated and um painting a picture for one another. It's uh, you know, you I love that line because I think it's with the entrepreneur mindset, I think it really helps them. A lot of them are visional visual, and so you know, they're able to talk it out or draw it, you know, especially in the advisory firm. They love a whiteboard. We love whiteboards. We do. We love them around here. That's the way we do a lot of our processes.
SPEAKER_00So whiteboarding is a life, yes, a way of life here. Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_03And we should put that in the drop description. Do you whiteboard or at least the skills skill set?
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. I love it. And we should also make um just while I'm thinking of it, yeah. I'm talking business on the podcast. Hey, love it. I feel like I love that that as a core value perception is everything.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because that can apply to clients too. Yeah. Um, we have core values uh within our team culture and that we live inside and out. So I feel like we need to add that one.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Now I like it.
SPEAKER_03Me too. Um, and you know, I I I started saying that um at my previous firm because um the the team would come to me and they're like, Well, I got called out for doing this, but I wasn't doing that at all. Well, I understand that. But if I'm walking past your door or the founder's walking past your door three different times, and they're seeing you texting on your phone or you know, taking a phone call, the perception is you're not working. So I always told them, if you have a uh call that you need to step out, just go outside and step outside. Like we all have life, we're all adults, our cell phones are part of our lives. Like, I don't want your kid or your family member, you know, needing you and you not be able to take that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But I also need you to keep a mindset of like what everybody sees in the office, um, and especially the founder, you know, the founder um sees what's going on when they walk through, and a lot of them are constantly in meetings, and so they're not um able to have that one-on-one time with the team. And, you know, that's where you and I come in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, but they're a representation of me. Yeah. And so, you know, I want to make sure that their perception is the perception of them and is a perception of me.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03So I want to make sure that they are putting the their best foot forward and they're creating the right perception of, hey, I am working my butt off here. I just had to step out three minutes to take a phone call. Right. Because, you know, my wife or my son or, you know, whoever needed me. Uh, you know, Robin loves to call me in the middle of the day and not realize, not mean it, but I love Robin. And I she's in North Carolina, so I gotta make sure that she's okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, so and and because I feel, you know, passionate about that, I would feel um very passionate about, you know, the team being able to do that too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. I mean, I never want to run like a military camp. Like I do not want the team to get here and be scared of being in trouble for something. That's never something that I would envision. That's not some place that I want to work for sure. And so it's just creating that balance. Um yeah. And so I think that's that's a huge one. I really like that one. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But it comes back to that trust too. It's it's not militaristic. It's not, you know, it's it's it's having the trust of, okay, you know, I see somebody on their phone once, they might have been texting their mom or something. But the consistency of it then creates a bad perception. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and on top of that, founders or even, you know, executives, like I am not always in the day-to-day. Um, especially, I mean, I was before you blessed me with your presence. Um, but I'm not always in the day-to-day. So if I walk by and I see somebody on their phone, I'm like, hmm. They're like leaned back on their phone. I'm thinking, oh wow, it's a relaxed place. Like I love that, but also I'm pretty sure you have things to do. So it's like, you know, yeah, that perception, maybe I only walk by that one time, and it happened to be that one time they were on the phone, but I'm gonna be like, oh, so-and-so was on their phone today and they looked like they were not working. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I mean, think about if a client walked by and saw that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I mean, yeah, if they got lost for here in the office, they could get lost going to the bathroom. Yeah, it's like a maze there. It is, it's a fun maze. Um but yeah, if a client saw that, that's the perception they're gonna have of us taking care of their money. And you know, that's not what we want to deliver. So it it's it comes to be the trust factor, it comes to be the communication factor. Like and I fully stand by that, whether people disagree with it or not.
SPEAKER_00I think it can be interpreted different ways. Like when you first said it, I honestly was like, hmm, I don't know. Cause I'm more of like in my everyday life, I'm more of like, I don't give a rat's patoot what people think of me. I am me and I don't care. I don't care what your perception is. But then, like in a workplace setting, of course I do, right? Like, I care deeply about what my founders think of me. I care what my team thinks of me. And regardless of how strong or like type A of a personality I am, I do care about those things. And so it is something to live by and set a good example for yourself and for your team. Um, because your team will emulate what you do on a daily basis too. And so a lot of the time, you know, like I am I'm big on dressing well for work um during during business hours. I I like to dress well. I will admit I wasn't always that person. Like I would come in with, you know, some pants and some sneakers and maybe like a um informal, you know, blouse, but it wasn't anything crazy. And then I started to notice that my team would emulate how I was dressing.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then we got to a point where I was like, everyone looks so casual. Everyone looks so casual. And in a perfect world, I would love to dress in leggings every day, right? Like I would love to just be comfortable and casual, but if we're handling clients' money, they're they've saved their entire lives, you know, mil sometimes millions of dollars we're handling it and we're dressed like we're going to the park. It's not a it's not a good look.
SPEAKER_03We don't want to give that perception.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I I definitely agree with it. Um, you know, it I had to it had to warm up.
SPEAKER_03Well it was your perception of it. Yes, exactly. And it's so funny because a lot of people do perceive it that way, and um, you know, it's it's not I'm a person, I I don't care. But I think that's more of like I'm in love with Dolly Parton, not like romantically, but I love Dolly Parton. Yes. Um, and you know, almost to the point where uh obsession, but you know that's how I feel about Taylor Swift's.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03So it and it's so funny because everybody gifts me Dolly Parton gifts and I absolutely love it. Yeah. And uh, but that I don't care. That's a perception I don't care. You can have that perception about me, and I will be happy because Dolly Parton is my idol. I think she should be everybody's idol.
SPEAKER_01I love that.
SPEAKER_03But you know, there I do want to be known at work as a person who dresses professionally. Um, you know, and we all have dress down days at all work. And I think, you know, we as humans have all worked in that culture where, you know, Mondays or Fridays have been our dress-down days and our casual days. But, you know, when it's time to do business, it's time to do business. And you want to present yourself and uh have that perception that you can do that. Yeah. And, you know, um, a lot of times, especially in our industry, and uh, and I would say probably most industries, our clients are deciding between two different places. And so if you have a place that you're walking in and you know, you look like a bunch of bums, then you have a place that you walk in and you're dressed to the nines. And I mean, and it doesn't have to be to the nines, but you're dressed professionally. And you know, I will say sometimes dressing to the nines might scare people off. So but I mean, when when you have those individuals who've saved the millions of dollars, they want to at least see somebody who cares cares, correct? Yes, and so that's so important. Yes. Um, and I feel like it shows passion. That's something I want to talk about because I think that's another important um characteristic between the relationship of the leader in the second chair and the founder owner is you know, you have to share the same passion. And I feel like having that passion drives you to want to show up, drives you to want to dress your best. Um, and and it's so important. I feel like founders look for people to put individuals in our role who are passionate about the work they do. Because if you're passionate about it, um you you guys are gonna get tired of me saying the word passion. But honestly, like and your passions can change. Mine definitely did. I worked for a mouse for six years and that was my passion. Yes. That was my dream. I absolutely loved it. Um, but my passion changed. And, you know, I I then got into the finance world and I had always loved finance. My uh finance teacher at Appalachian State University was uh, you know, I took a personal finance class there and just loved it and the business finance that she taught next. And it was she made me have such a passion and she made me understand it because she was passionate about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And so, you know, having that characteristic I think is very important for the leader in the second chair. And you know, there's individuals that I've met who weren't passionate about it and you know, um about what they do. And it's not just in our industry, you know, if if you can't, in my opinion, you can't be a good leader for somebody in an industry if you're not passionate about what you do. Yeah because uh at the end of the day, then it it just becomes a job and you're just showing up for a paycheck. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And sometimes your team does that. And like you said, yeah. And you your team emulates you. And so if you're just showing up for a paycheck, then your team's just gonna show up for a paycheck. Yeah. So yeah. But passions ebb and flow and they just they evolve.
SPEAKER_00They uh they do evolve. Yes. And I I do think that speaking to passion because there's been times in my life where and I I'm sure the same for you, where, you know, obviously I've worked at this firm, you know, from the ground up, and we've been a team of three, and we're we've been a team of 19. Right now we're a team of I think 18. Um and sometimes the passion burns out because of all of the storms that you go through. And sometimes you're just tired. But I will say what goes hand in hand with passion is purpose.
SPEAKER_03Purpose.
SPEAKER_00And that's actually one of our um, it's that's part of our brand. Yeah. But yeah, you in order to reignite the passion or you know, not completely fizzle out because maybe you're not passionate one day, yeah, you have to have the purpose behind it and you have to do things that bring fulfillment in one way or the other.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so I think they can be uh two different things at times. Uh, you know, I have always felt like my team was my purpose here and showing up for them was important regardless of how I was feeling um, you know, in the hard times. And I, you know, I I carried that with me through a lot of the storms that we went through as a growing firm. And um, you know, there were some days where I didn't, you know, I didn't want to come to work. And I I think that's unfiltered. And I think that people don't talk about it, but you're not going to always want to come to work, right? Like we work because we have to. Um, some of us work because we want to, but I think a majority of people work to earn a living, right? And so, yes, it's a blessing when you find work um that you're passionate about. But I also think, you know, sometimes the passion isn't there. And you have to learn how to just continue to show up and be your best self and the best version that you can be for that day. And so I think, you know, you have to find your purpose behind, you know, the day-to-day and what you're doing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Well, and I and the beautiful thing about passion is it once you have it, it doesn't really burn out. It might like simmer down.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But I I, you know, like you reigned.
SPEAKER_00You have a pilot light on. Correct. Yes.
SPEAKER_03Correct. And, you know, I all of us feel, I mean, it work is work. And, you know, we all wish that we could win the Powerball and not ever have to show up another day, you know, as much as I love you guys. I would I would love to be able to buy a home in San Antonio and uh come see you guys and then fly home to Asheville and not work at all. But you know, um, but yeah, no, there there's definitely days and you know, there's there's things that happen in our personal lives that we don't want to show up to work for. And but it's it's it's in those moments that you know you have a good culture um when your team can really show up for you. And um, you know, one of the core values where um I've worked before was give a hundred percent. And that's what we started out with. Um, and then me and the founder were talking, and um, we came out with give a hundred percent of what you come with because we're not all gonna show up a hundred percent every single day. Yeah, you know, sports often talked about that, you know, give a hundred percent every single time. Yeah, and you know, that is great. And but as adults, you know, as a kid, we probably have a lot of that energy. Um but as adults, you know, there's days that we just don't have a hundred percent. So I always told the team, you know, if if you come to you know work that day and you have 70%, my expectations if you give a hundred of that 70% you have. Yeah, um, we recognize, and I think, you know, good leadership also recognizes that people have bad days and good teams recognize leaders have bad days.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, we're we're constantly learning, we're constantly evolving, and so we're we're gonna show up and have bad days as leaders. Um, founders are gonna show up and have bad days. And so just being able to understand and communicate that um, you know, and and uh having an open space that your team can communicate that to you is so important. Um yeah, just you know, showing up and giving everything you you can that you come with that day and not allowing it, so you know, we often say leave your ego at the door. And I love that because you know, we all gotta realize that we're a team. Um, but I think, you know, showing up and not allowing your home life or, you know, your outside of work life to affect it, but also giving yourself grace, giving your team grace to uh really just you know deal with what's going on and then moving on. Yeah um you can't let it linger because then it affects the business, it affects you, and you know, you can't let it linger, but you can take a day, you can take, you know, however much time you need, or you know, within reason. Yes, um, to really deal with uh whatever's going on. Yeah. That's kind of like simmered your passion.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think coming back to the founder conversation, it's like you have to know too, you have to keep that in mind when you're talking with founders because there have been times where I've you know, I've made the mistake of being a little too uh opinionated in the moment and going at it without thinking uh, you know, kind of where the where my founder is coming from, or maybe without thinking of, hey, maybe we should revisit this conversation on a different day because we're both. You know, we're both very passionate about whatever side we're on with this topic, and we're not going to agree today. And we're not, we don't even, I don't even think we're gonna come to a compromise today. Yeah. But we can revisit at a, you know, on a different day. And so I've, you know, I've made the mistake, and I think my founders would admit that they've made the mistake of um having some very heated conversations that we probably would have done differently had we just listened to kind of um where we were both at and then started that conversation again a different day. So I do think I love that. I think sh giving 100% of what you've got and knowing when you're when that limit is up. Um so that you do present your best self. Yeah, right. Yeah. So yeah, I think that's super important.
SPEAKER_03I love that. No, it's it's uh it all goes back to perception as everything.
SPEAKER_00Perception is everything. Okay, well, let me read this question.
SPEAKER_03Let's get to the questions. Okay, we um picked one out of that kind of resonated with today.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Uh where is it? You would think I'd be prepared. Um sorry, I have to go back to it here, but yeah, uh the question was can you speak on how a leadership mindset versus business owner mindset applies to the day-to-day and some of the struggles with each role? So the way I'm interpreting this is um maybe the business owner and the operator is the same person, or maybe you like me, I I own, I actually own a business with my husband. Um, so I am a business owner while I'm also the COO here. And so that difference, I kind of get to understand both sides of the coin.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's so nice.
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, and so it brings a lot of, I think, understanding for my founders. Yeah um, not to say that I understand every I get very frustrated as an operator because founders are so uh focused on other, you know, we have different priorities, which is great, but it can be frustrating, right? And so I think understanding that founders have such immense pressure of payroll and the responsibility of their team. And that's something that I see, you know, I I feel that pressure as a business owner myself, and I understand it. And I think I can understand decisions that are made, you know, with within a company a little bit more because of that. And so I'm just I'm more understanding and more flexible, and I understand that sales are important and it's an important part of your business. That's how everyone gets paid.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and so I think a lot of the time founders are very sales driven. They're very focused on sales, and the perception of that for a lot of people is oh, they just want to make as much money as they can. They just want to make as much money as they can. They don't care about us, they're working us to death, or they're they don't care about anything except sales. Um and that's totally not not the case at all. Yeah. That's not what is actually happening in the background. That's just what you're perceiving. Um, and so if you can bring a little bit more understanding and try to put yourself in their shoes, they have the weight of even if it's a few team members, it's payroll it's people's livelihoods. That's a big amount. Yes, it is. And so, you know, the having that understanding is just important, I think. And I know it's not it's easier said than done if you haven't experienced it. Um, so I don't know, what do you think coming from somebody? I well, actually, I shouldn't say that because you do own your own business. Um, you are an author as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's um not as extensive as, you know, the business that you and your husband run, but um it it's definitely I I'll say I struggled with it when I um took the role as director of operations at my other frame. I really struggled because I viewed it as my team or my clients, and I gotta take care of my clients. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And um and my clients are unhappy. Correct.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And so, you know, you gotta figure that out. And as I grew in the leadership role, and you know, I mentored with you and um Michelle Short that we shouted out, um, you know, I I became more of the understanding with the business side of everything and um the sales mindset of, you know, just how important sales are. And I mean, it it's it's common sense, you would think, but when you're in the moment and you're trying to build these processes and you're you're taking over, you know, sales is constantly seem to take over. Um, and most of your founders are sales driven because that's where they started. And so um they're they're gonna focus on that and they're not operationally minded less, you know, every founder out there, now there are some who started in operations and then found a passion for um advising. And so they are, you know, operationally minded, but there are some out there who have never processed an application a day in their life because either their wife or somebody did it, or you know, their husband, whoever, what may, their child. Um, and so they just they don't have the thought process of that, you know, and even if they did process applications, they uh oh, I know a founder that processes applications sometimes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, and it's a mess.
SPEAKER_03There are NIGOs for sure. Yeah. Um but it it's they're just not operationally inclined, some of them. And so, you know, just having that balance and that understanding of both one another. Now, if you are a founder who is, you know, you don't have an operations team or you know, you're just starting out, I think one of the best things that you can do for yourself as well as your um business is to start thinking operationally.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And, you know, think the sales process through, but also think the operational process through, you know, okay, this is what I'm gonna do for my client. Build out your sales process with your operations process. And that way when you bring somebody on, when you know, you're bottlenecking and you have to have another individual because you know your business is booming and you're growing, um, you'll already have that planned out. And so one, you're not gonna have the stress of doing it later when you have, you know, four or five people and you're like, oh shoot, I should have done this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, but you know, and I know, like you said, it's easier said than done.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, but I think for you know, someone who uh who doesn't really own a business that you know has to worry about payroll or anything like that, you know, Bell's is gonna eat. Bell's is my cat, by the way. She's gonna eat either way.
SPEAKER_00She's your co-author.
SPEAKER_03She is my co-author. She she is the uh the unpaid employee. Oh, trust me, she's paid. That girl looks like a queen and she knows it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she does look like a queen.
SPEAKER_03Um but no, just you know, it's it's it's a unique um understanding and a unique relationship. Um and I think you know, you can do yourself justice both ways. As an operation leader, I don't think if without understanding the founder mindset that you'll be successful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think even if you don't have experience with, you know, owning something yourself, you can still understand the feeling because just like you might be, you know, if you're frustrated with your founder for being, you know, very sales oriented, and maybe you feel like they don't, they don't understand operations, they don't get it, they don't, you know, understand how important it is. Well, on the flip side of that, they're thinking the same thing about you. Yes. Right. So they're thinking she doesn't understand or he doesn't understand sales, he doesn't get it, he doesn't, he's not prioritizing this. He's all all he's thinking about is operations. And it's like there has to be a point where you meet in the middle. Yeah. Wherever, however far away you are from each other, pick one or two things that you're like, okay, I hear you, I understand. A good um exercise that I I forget who I learned this from. I didn't just make it up in my brain. So I'm sorry, I can't give credit where credit is due, but somebody told me that when you're really heated about something between, you know, a partner or a team member or, you know, a leader, switch sides. So argue their point and they argue yours and make it a game. Yes. And first of all, it it diffuses the situation, but it also lets you allows you to see from their perspective why they might feel a certain way about something. And so I think it's it's important to do that. And if you're not comfortable, you know, with your founder, if you're, you know, director of ops or you know, uh just a leader on the team that isn't comfortable saying, okay, founder, switch sides with me on this topic, do it on your own. Do it alone. Think of, you know, if you were, if you had a that other opinion that you're fighting so hard against, how would you, how would you win that argument? What would you think?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, so just try, try to put yourself in the mindset of the other person.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. That that reminds me of uh my AP English teacher in high school, Mr. Rant, shout out. Um, she always said the most intelligent people could argue both sides.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And so, and I don't think that that means like you have to believe both sides because I mean you're on one side for a reason. But what I really think that means is you're able to understand both sides. And so you're coming from a position of, okay, I understand what you're saying. I understand why you're saying it. You don't have to agree with it, yeah, but just the emotional intelligence. And I believe the most intelligent people in this world have a high EQ. Um just, you know, their their emotional intelligence is uh they're able to understand people and they're able to not just understand but resonate with them and you know, just allow people to have those opinions.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03So I think, you know, under like you were saying, understanding why the founder or owner has that perception or why your ops leader has that under uh perception, you know, because you're both coming from different sides, you know, most of your founders are leading the sales and the marketing side, and you know, your ops leaders are leading from the second chair and they're leading your operations. And so your your forethought is going to be different, your thought process is gonna be different because um while your sales process and your ops process work hand in hand, they also are so different. Yes.
SPEAKER_00So yes, and that's why you have your founder or the owner of the firm, and that's why they have you. Because you have different brains with different thought processes, and you can bring your strengths together. Um, you just have to be willing to trust in each other. And so I think just as much as a founder needs to trust their operations person, it it has to go both ways. Their operations person has to trust the founder and there has to be mutual respect and you have to find a way that you can build that together because frankly, it will not work if you don't have that. Um, and your team will feel it. And so that's the most important part. Your team will feel it and your clients will feel it. And so it's bringing all of that together and knowing that you're on the same you're on the same team.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. It's crazy how that relationship can have such a uh major impact on the business as a whole. You know, the founder and the leader in the second chair.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Okay, good question.
SPEAKER_03Yes, thank you so much for uh submitting everything. And um, we hope that everyone will submit more.
SPEAKER_00Yes, please.
SPEAKER_03Um, and you know, that gives us topics to talk about and you know, we have a list of things we want to talk about.
SPEAKER_00I know we have so much so many ideas. We have a running list of ideas, and if you can keep us on topic one at a time.
SPEAKER_03That's the hard part.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that would be great.
SPEAKER_03Keeping us on topic is the hard part for sure. But no, we're definitely looking forward to taking this adventure with you guys. And um, thank you for listening. And I'm looking forward to going on this adventure with you and uh the dream's coming alive.
SPEAKER_00It is episode two down.
SPEAKER_03Perfect. Well, thank you so much for listening, and this is the op seat.
SPEAKER_00Bye.