I Interviewed the CEO Who Almost Fired Me

FREE: the tools and templates to become an indispensable marketer: indispensablemarketer.com/free/

For ten years Chad ran marketing for Jacob. Then he told the executive team he

wasn't sure he was the right guy for the job. Jacob told him he agreed.

This is the conversation most marketing leaders never have with their CEO. Chad

asks Jacob what was actually going through his head in that conference room,

why he'd already burned through five marketing leaders in nine years, and what

changed when he realized he might be the common denominator. If you feel the

heat in every leadership meeting and can't name why the trust isn't there,

start here.

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CHAPTERS

0:00 The conversation every marketing leader avoids with their CEO

1:55 Inside the meeting where Chad said "I'm not the right guy for this job"

3:54 What Jacob was actually thinking, and why he didn't reassure him

4:56 Five marketing leaders in nine years, and the moment the CEO became the

common denominator

6:49 The Trust Gap, named: why it isn't a skills gap or a budget gap

10:17 Why marketers who lead with execution are becoming dispensable

13:17 VSET explained: Vision, Strategy, Execution, Team, and who owns what

17:46 Why having the hard conversation is the less risky path

20:55 What to put on the table with your CEO this week

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WHO'S TALKING

Jacob Baadsgaard is the founder and CEO of Disruptive Advertising and the author

of The Indispensable Marketer. He's sat on both sides of this table: marketing

director at a public company, and now the CEO asking marketing for a number.

Chad de Lisle has been in marketing for nearly twenty years, half of that at

Disruptive working directly with Jacob. He spent years doing the smile and nod

in executive meetings. Here he tells you what it cost him.

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ABOUT THE SHOW

The Indispensable Marketer is Disruptive Advertising's podcast. We're a

performance marketing agency, and our mission is to connect great marketers with

the brands they believe in. The goal of this show is simpler than that: we want

marketing leaders to win. Not just hit the number, but earn the trust and the

seat that comes with it.

For anyone who has no reason to trust us yet, some things you can check:

We've managed marketing for more than 2,000 client accounts.

We reject 96% of applicants, because the wrong person in the wrong seat costs

everyone.

In 2020 we fired two-thirds of our client roster on purpose. Purpose without

performance is a hobby. Performance without purpose is a trap.

We publish around 8 videos a month. We want these to be the episodes you forward

to your CEO or drop in your team's channel, because you're both better on the

other side of it.

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FREE RESOURCES: ⁠indispensablemarketer.com/free/⁠⁠

Disruptive Advertising: disruptiveadvertising.com

The Indispensable Marketer (book): https://www.indispensablemarketer.com/book/

Connect with Jacob on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jakebaadsgaard/

Connect with Chad on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chad-de-lisle/

NEXT EPISODE: Jacob fired 450 clients during Covid. It almost broke marketing,

and it turned out to be the best decision we ever made.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'm about to bring in the CEO who almost fired me. As a marketing leader, there is a conversation that all of us wish that we could have with our CEO, but we're too afraid to. It's the conversation where we reveal how we really feel about the relationship. And I want to bring him in so that we can talk about the language and the framework that we've created to be able to get on the same page. Most marketing leaders struggle to be able to speak the same language as their CEO, and they have no idea why there's such a trust gap between themselves and the leader of the company. This conversation is where we pull back the framework we created called VSet Vision, Strategy, Execution, and Team. And VSet is the language that helps us close the trust gap and build a business that we're both proud of. All right. Welcome, Jacob, the CEO and founder of Disruptive Advertising, and basically my boss for 10 years plus. You built Disruptive From Nothing, have grown the agency to manage over $150 million in revenue, something like that. You also are a CEO who has burned through five different marketing leaders at least. And then there was me. And you wanted to burn me too. And so we're going to get into the conversation about that today. Yeah, wanted or still want to. You know, that's what we're going to find out. Still maybe could at any moment. Yeah. Why I wanted to talk to Jacob as a guest on the show is that he is going to reveal the mind of the CEO. Something that we don't usually get to see as marketing leaders. Sure, we get to feel the heat, we get to feel frustration, but Jacob has been so kind in pulling back the curtain and helping me as a marketing leader to understand what's really going on in a CEO's mind when they're dealing with their marketing leader. I want you to take us back to the conference room where I almost lost my job. What was going on in that meeting?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Well, I remember that day well. It was in the conference room just right over there. And we had just finished our weekly executive team meeting. And once again, the marketing performance was not where it needed to be. And uh it felt uncomfortable for all of us. Uh, I think mostly and especially for you as well. And we've been trying to help and support the best way that we knew how for probably six months at this point. And I remember you just kind of saying, guys, like just pause for a second. I I'm just not sure I'm the right guy for the job. My nature in in the past would have been, oh no, it's all good, like, and then maybe talk about it later or whatever. And I just said, you know what? Let's just we can circle back and talk about that after the meeting is done. Because the reality is I didn't know if you were the right guy for the job either. And I didn't want to position it as something that wasn't what it really was.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

What was it like for you in that moment?

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Well, it felt like all the blood was rushing to my head, and I was terrified. But but also I think there was a there was an element of just wanting to call a spade a spade. I felt so grateful to be a part of a team where everyone was trying to rally around me. That was the part that was beautiful and also hard. Is that our wonderful executive team, yourself included, everyone was stepping in and trying to offer support. Chad, what about this? Maybe I'll take over this piece or let me try this. You know, everybody was was doing that. And it was just, it really came into focus for me in that moment that I I'm like holding the team back. I'm holding the company back. I feel like I haven't figured this out, and it's been however many months at that time. Like we gotta call a spade a spade, and maybe I'm just not the right guy for the job. And I also knew in saying those words, that it was like I was laying my head down on a chopping block and accepting that I might just be done at disruptive.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Well, I remember the conversation, the the executive team meeting ended. We stayed back and we had the conversation. Yeah. And I said, pretty specifically, Chad, I don't know if you're the right guy for the job either. But I also don't yet know if you're the wrong guy for the job. Sure. And so I think uh what it felt like for me in that moment is what you described was a little bit more acceptance to this is just true. This is just where we're at. Let's go and explore this together.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

And I just remember in that moment, it almost felt like a relief because let's let's just talk about the real thing, let's work through it, and let's land wherever it lands us. I think we're both ready to accept that. Yep. Rather than to fight for something that isn't right anymore.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

And so for me, it felt kind of energizing of okay, great, let's actually just jump in and figure this out now. And I remember leaving that meeting and saying, okay, I like I've got to figure something out here because as the CEO, his historically, I'd worked with five different marketing leaders over the years. All of them kind of came in from different capacities and expertise. And there was always kind of this honeymoon phase that happens up front, and everyone kind of leans into their natural strengths and gifts and whatever that is. But when it comes to running the whole department and moving the business forward, it's kind of challenging because I have a marketing background and I kind of want it done a certain way. And they bring a certain skill set to the table. And I I kind of left thinking, okay, we're going to address the real thing, but I'm concerned I might be the problem because you would have been the sixth marketing leader. At that point, it would have been nine years into the business. And geez, man, like it at some point there, I'm the common denominator here. So like I've got to get to the truth because I don't want to keep repeating this, even if you're the right guy, or even if you're the wrong guy. Let's just figure out what we need to do to move this forward. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Well, and to your credit, the ability to look inward and to say, like, how might I be contributing to the problem is just remarkable. And also, you'd created a space where I could provide feedback or criticism, even in our relationship. You know, I think even in that meeting, I remember saying something like, the worst part of my job is working with you, which I don't know that I would recommend just like saying that to your CEO. But but the thing that I think you're getting at is that that conversation, both during the executive meeting and after, was us getting more truth on the table.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

So that we could just make better decisions and move things forward and decide what we wanted to do. And so I was just grateful for the space for both of us to get truth on the table and to have that surrender and acceptance to whatever the outcome might be. So, Jacob, you gave this dysfunction a name, the trust gap. Can you tell us what that is and what that means?

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Shortly after our conversation, I actually ended up having a call with a consultant that we use to help make strategic hiring decisions at Disruptive. And I approached that and just said, hey, here's what's going on. And there seems to be a repeating cycle here. And I would love to understand from your perspective as a third party what's really going on. And he described to me what I think a lot of CEOs struggle with, which is, hey, you've really got a decision to make here. This isn't about whether Chad is the right guy for the job or the wrong guy for the job. It's about you getting clear on what success looks like in that role and getting the right person to match that. And I said, okay, like this makes it a little less personal. It's about making the right decision. What felt uncomfortable about that moment is I had to get clear. And as a CEO and a lot of entrepreneurs and CEOs, we think we're clear when we're communicating. And it's even received by people as, yeah, that's clear what you want here. But yet we keep coming back to the same frustration frustration points over and over again. And so what he said was, look, you've just got to make a decision. Do you want someone in the role that runs it and does it the way that they want to do it? Or do you still have a specific way that you want it done and you can work with someone that's more collaborative with you, but can really then run, rally the team, and make it happen? Because he's like, if you want the former, it's probably not Chad. Um, if you want the latter, it it probably is Chad. It's actually a decision you need to make. And at that moment, I'm like, okay, I've got to sit with this and understand that. And so the first thing was making the decision of, okay, the trust gap that exists here is actually something I'm creating by not being clear about what is needed for the role, for the outcomes, where we're going, all of those types of things. And then the second thing is making sure that that is clear and understood by me and by my leader in this role. And so that was kind of like the genesis of saying, I'm not willing to just go another round in this rodeo and hire another marketer and have it have a honeymoon phase for six months and then wonder if they're the right person for the next six months, and then do that again. And so many businesses do that with their marketing leaders and their agencies.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

And the funny thing is, is here we are, an agency and struggling with the same thing that we're trying to help our own clients with. And so I felt like, you know, this is an opportunity to eat our own dog food and to really get on the same page because then that's something really valuable we can bring to the hundreds of businesses that we serve and helping them close that trust gap and be more effective with their marketing and their alignment with the CEO.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

The work that it took to bring this thing to life, too, is just there's so much, you know. I I was thinking of of the, you know, the pain that led us to this moment and the late nights and the sleeplessness and all of the things that, you know, I leaving that meeting, calling my wife and saying, I think that I might not have a job anymore, you know, and then going into uh conversations with you and recognizing, hey, let's let's really go all in on this and see if we can figure it out. Because we know, like you said, our our clients and other businesses, every business out there struggles with this exact thing. How to get clear and close that trust gap between marketing and leadership.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

And I would just say, because most marketers determine their value based on how much they can execute, that is it is such a big issue with what's going on right now because execution is what's being replaced with AI and automation. So a lot of marketers feel very dispensable because the thing they leaned on to be valuable in the past is no longer as valuable as it used to be. In fact, for one or two percent of their salary, there are tools that can do most of the execution now.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

And so getting aligned with like the vision of the business and where we're really trying to go, aligning the strategy, that's where these things started to become clear. Are you going to be able to tolerate if I just come in and actually kind of get my hands dirty, run things for a minute, and make sure that I can understand what clarity even means and just understand everything that's going on. And so we went through that process for a couple of months. Yeah. And most marketing leaders wouldn't be okay with that. And uh, I think it just speaks a lot to your style of leadership, humility. And the the thing that kept us working on it is we both believed in what we were trying to build.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

This wasn't a business just about making money. We really see the the force for good that marketing can be for the brands that are making a real impact in the world. Yeah. And that's what something that we've enjoyed building together the last 10, 11 plus years.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

And um, so that's what, like, hey, if there's some, if we both believe in this and both want to do this, let's work through the specifics and see if the fit is right.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

And so when we went through that process together, I kind of came in and said, look, let me just kind of help establish a baseline and understand in working on this with you what I would need to see and feel and know and do to let go again and have complete trust.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

But I don't know exactly what that is yet. And so I need to go through that process with you because it seems intuitive to me, but I've been unable to effectively articulate that to you.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

And so that was frankly fun and a little stressful to kind of go through that process together. Sure. But uh worth it because in the end, that's what helped us learn how to bridge the trust gap. Yeah and to the point where, yeah, we still meet on a monthly basis, sometimes touch base during the week. But like you do run with a lot of autonomy. You are running the marketing department, you are setting an example and tone on the team now. And to go from am I the right guy for the job, and then really stepping in to clarify these things was quite the journey.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

Yeah. Well, and and it gave us a language and a framework. It's what you're talking about. It was us being able to get on the same page about so many things and actually get down to what clarity means. Because I thought I understood what clarity was before we went through this exercise of V set and creating this uh framework. But I mean, clarity is so important to the role and honestly to every function that exists in the marketing department and in the business at large. We've been talking about the framework that we used to get on the same page. It's the spine of this show, it's the spine of the book, the indispensable marketer. Tell us what it is.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

There is a gap that I don't know any marketer was going to be able to solve, or any CEO is going to be able to solve in isolation. Because what the VSAP framework does is it actually creates vision level clarity that the CEO is responsible for that the marketer can't actually do for them. And then it re-and that's where we create business vision clarity. Where is the destination that we're working towards? And the CEO has to own that. And the reason why I've been able to put this framework together is because I've sat in both seats for so long. I've been the marketing director at a public company, right? I've been the CEO of this business. And I understand both sides of the table in a way that most marketers and most CEOs never will. And so by understanding that the V, which is create business vision clarity, we know who we are, where we're going, why it matters, and who we're built to serve and how to actually make money doing that, right? Um, are the things that the CEO has to own, the entrepreneur. The marketer can help extract that. And that's what a lot of these frameworks teach you and other marketers how to do, but this CEO still owns it.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

And at the strategy level, most marketers don't understand the business level. And so at the strategy level, they never really align back to say, I've done the math that if marketing performs this way, we don't actually hit the business objectives. And here are the trade-offs that we need to make in terms of budget or timing or expectations, whatever that is, so that we can serve the target customer, take them through the right journey, and ultimately feed the funnel that nourishes and allows this business to grow and succeed. Well, when you've got the vision is clear, the strategy is bought off on by both the marketer and the CEO before they start executing. Well, now we move into execution with clarity and confidence. And that's where things happen quickly. They're more defined. We're not chasing things, we're not throwing spaghetti at the wall because we took the time to align with vision and strategy first, so that now your execution is far superior and more effective. And then taking that dynamic that you and I struggled with as the marketer and the CEO of making sure that you bridge that gap with your own team now, with the team and the team alignment, so that they understand what they truly own, the vision, the strategy, the execution, and the outcomes that they're responsible for, so that you don't pass on the dysfunctional relationship between the marketer and the CEO back right to your team, but actually can take what's now working and disseminate that to your team. So that's how VSAC came together. And in the process of working through this together, getting our hands dirty and getting in the trenches together, forcing myself to get clear and actually writing it in the book so that it's so clear that other people can read it and make sense of it. The courses, it's how we service our clients at Disruptive University. It has just required me as a CEO and entrepreneur to get so clear that it can now help not just our relationship, but any marketer and CEO relationship and the relationship that they have with their team as well.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Yeah. And it actually is pretty simple. Yeah. That's the thing that's beautiful. It wasn't simple to get there, but the framework that has been created and the tools that and resources that we've put together actually make it very simple for any marketing leader and CEO to use this same framework and get on the same page, right? That we have. And, you know, bringing it full circle, right? We had this moment where I'm sitting across the hall here in this executive team and I'm saying, I don't think I'm the right guy for this job. To most recently, you know, having a uh a summit with all of our employees, you know, and you saying, Chad, do you feel like you're the right guy for this job or something to that effect? I don't remember exactly what you asked me, but it was it my response was, I know I'm, I know I'm the right guy for this job. Like I get it. I I know it, you know, in me now. I I understand, I can see it. And it that clarity is just worth so much peace of mind. Uh, it is worth so much in terms of performance that we're able to generate for the business. And I'm just so excited that we get to create and share this that we've created with other marketing leaders and CEOs so that they can get through the hard stuff that I know they're experiencing right now.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

There really are two things, two outcomes that could potentially happen. And you go back to that moment where you said, I don't know if I'm the right guy for the job. That was a risk. It was a risk to put that on the table.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

The argument is it may have been a bigger risk to not say that.

unknown 17:54

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Because then you continue to suffer and start looking for the other job or finding your way out while things actually kind of spiral worse on the way out, which then damages a 10-year relationship, right? Leaves us in frustration. And now I've got to go through the process again and and do that. Yeah. And so I actually think you took the less risky path. I actually think you did, because one of two outcomes was going to happen. Either we'd find the alignment and end up at that moment where we said, we don't think you're the right guy for the job. We know you're the right guy for the job, and you're helping us build something that we're both proud of. Or it would have given both of us the clarity to say, we actually still love and respect each other, and it's not the right fit for you here. Now you can move on and we can actually acknowledge that and accept that and do it in a way that that works better for both parties. Yeah. And so I think that there's a risk, no matter what a marketer does, that's feeling frustrated. And you might be working at an agency, you might be in-house, you might be the CEO watching this. The risk to have the real conversation is worth it because the risk of not having that conversation is poor performance, poor relationship, a poor outcome that's already inevitable. You're just kicking the can down the road by not having the conversation now. Now, what I can't guarantee is that the marketer has a conversation with the CEO and that they don't have an emotional moment and fire you on the spot. That could happen. Yeah. Right? Like that could totally happen. Um but wouldn't you rather find your way to the right place rather than, you know, suffer in the wrong one? And what if, what if it goes well? What if it leads to the relationship that we have, the book that we've got, the courses, the conversation that we're having right now?

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

What's on the other side of actually working through that fear and getting on the same page with the CEO?

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Even if that means staying together or separating. Yeah, I love that what you said. The risk, honestly, there's a risk either way. And why not take the risk that could actually see it improve rather than the risk of just hoping that it doesn't get so bad that it falls can completely falls apart. You know, it just doesn't feel like it makes sense to do it that way.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Well, and and we have distilled Visa into something so simple that had you been able to go through the very things that we've created before you had that conversation with me, you could have said, these are the six questions that are not clear for me. Oh, yeah. Can we just have this conversation? Yep. You would have felt so much more empowered, had the right tools and frameworks to work with to just go and do this, where we kind of navigated it a little bit blind. And so that really is the gift that we're trying to give here is you don't have to go through this messy, lengthy, emotional process. It's like, no, we've done that hard work for you so that you can actually, here's the templates, here's the questions, here's the things that you need to get aligned on. And we've done some of that heavy lifting for you so that you can just get after it, find that alignment or not, and move forward on your marketing adventure. Yep. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

I just walked through with Jacob the benefit of having that hard conversation and taking the risk. It was a game changer for me in my career and a game changer for the business. And if you are feeling like I felt, then this show is for you. Marketing leaders everywhere, we have got to put more truth on the table and take a step towards our CEO so that we can bridge that trust gap and start to build something that you're both proud of. Okay, so that is the end of this episode. But next episode, you're gonna want to tune in because we are talking about when Jacob fired 450 clients during COVID and it almost broke marketing. But it turned out to be the best thing that we ever did.