Beyond Sunday | Legacy Church
Beyond Sunday is Legacy Church's podcast where Pastor John and other team members or guests have honest, biblical conversations about the questions people are asking. Whether it's about Scripture, faith, theology, culture, relationships, or navigating everyday life as a follower of Jesus, no question is too big or too small.
Beyond Sunday | Legacy Church
Episode 1 | Pilot
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Welcome to Beyond Sunday: Tackling the Tough Questions, a podcast from Legacy Church where we go beyond the Sunday message to have honest, biblical conversations about the questions people are really asking.
From Scripture and theology to culture, relationships, the supernatural, and navigating everyday life with Jesus, Pastor John and members of the Legacy pastoral team tackle questions submitted by you.
Our goal isn't to shy away from difficult conversations—but to approach them with Scripture, wisdom, humility, and a desire to know God more.
IN THIS EPISODE
We're tackling questions surrounding the spiritual and supernatural, including:
• What was God doing before Genesis 1?
• How could angels rebel while being in the presence of God?
• Who—or what—were the Nephilim?
• Why isn't the Book of Enoch in the Bible?
• How should Christians respond to the paranormal?
Have a tough question you'd like us to tackle on a future episode?
SUBMIT YOUR QUESTION:
https://ourlegacychurch.churchcenter.com/people/forms/1287755
Your question may be featured in an upcoming episode of Beyond Sunday.
Legacy Church
Encounter God. Live for More.
Welcome to Beyond Sunday, tackling the tough questions. This is a podcast from Legacy Church where we take the questions that you guys are asking and have honest biblical conversations about faith, life, theology, and everything in between. My name is John Della Pena, and I'm joined here by our lead pastor at Legacy Church, Pastor John Dunn. Pastor, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_00I'm doing well. I'm excited about this uh inaugural episode of Beyond Sunday. I think it's gonna be encouraging and enlightening for a lot of people.
SPEAKER_01Good. And I know that there's two Johns on this podcast. We haven't figured out ever since we've been, you know, in ministry together.
SPEAKER_00So I don't we'll try to figure this out, but it's it's not just two Johns, it's J D. Yes, it's it's it's everything. So it's it's the nicknames are hard, but we'll figure it out.
SPEAKER_01Maybe that's something that you guys can submit is what can we call ourselves to make this you know make sense.
SPEAKER_00And we'll have to read those on our on an episode. I'm sure it's gonna be hilarious.
SPEAKER_01So there we go. So before we get started, um we wanted to, or well, Pastor John wanted to kind of lay some ground rules.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, so we're gonna be talking about a lot of stuff that's kind of on the fringe of biblical doctrine or stuff that we find in the Bible, and there's gonna be a lot of speculation. So a couple ground rules that I want to make sure everybody is aware of before we start, in that number one, we believe the Bible is the word of God, so it's inspired, it's authoritative, and we submit to it, it is it's the word of God. Um, in saying that though, um, we're passionate here, um, especially at at our church, legacy church, about making sure that we hear the voice of God. So we want to encounter God. Um, for however many years before Moses, Moses uh lived around 1500 BC, so 1600, 1500 BC, and then the first five books were written uh after that. Um prehistory all the way up to Moses, there was no written down word of God. Everything was oral tradition, and whoever heard God had to hear him uh speak in their spirit or an audible voice or the angel of the Lord, as we probably will discuss in the future, met with certain people such as Abraham or Adam or Enoch, and they had to hear him. So there was no written word of God. And so I want to encourage everybody, um, just like uh I'll ask our congregation from time to time, um, do you think we're gonna need our Bible in heaven? And everybody answers, well, when they think about it, no, because we have the focus of who the Bible is written about. We have the one and only. And so that's what we want to make sure that we keep into focus is that the we know the Bible is the word of God and we surrender to it, we submit to it. But just like in many seminaries and Bible schools across the country, um, people can lose their faith because they start referring to the Bible as a text, as just this a book to be studied, and they they'll lose their faith because they don't have a connection with the living God. So we want to make sure that we keep that in balance. There's a connection with the living God, but we're also gonna study the Word of God in depth and intellectually and deeply. And the second ground rule is that stuff we're gonna be talking about is that these are not things that we're gonna that anybody should divide over. So a lot of this stuff is speculation, a lot of this stuff is educated guessing uh based on certain passages of scripture, but man, we could be totally wrong. I am I am sure that when we get to heaven, I'm gonna stand before the Father and He's gonna be like, hey, bro, uh, you're way off here. That's not what I meant in your word, in my word by by this. Yeah, you studied it and whatever, but you just didn't have all the information. So those two ground rules, if we can keep those in mind as we're going through, so that nobody is like super dogmatic about stuff that they've heard or anything that we're saying, everybody's free to disagree with what we're talking about. But we're gonna be presenting some stuff in scripture um that hopefully will give us um some great lenses to read the narrative of the Bible in.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. So we are gonna be answering some of the questions that have submitted that have been submitted to us. And if you want your question to be answered, um obviously obviously we'll take a look at it. But if you want to, there'll be a link in the show notes to do so. So go ahead and write it there, we'll review it, and it could be featured on the next episode. But we're gonna go ahead and get started. There's kind of a common theme that we we felt led to kind of address with some of these questions. So why don't we start off with the first one, Pastor John? What was God doing before Genesis 1?
SPEAKER_00What was God doing before Genesis 1? Well, we know he was the time he is the timeless one, he dwells outside of time, and I really think that starting in in the first uh chapter of Genesis, um, there are a lot of things that Moses does not write down, or maybe he's not been revealed. Maybe he's only writing what he's revealed, but maybe there's a lot of things that they knew then that they assumed that everyone would know when he's writing down. So uh I think there's a there are a ton of things um that God was doing before Genesis 1. Um there are a lot of are there are a lot of branches we could go with that question. Um, but if we want to focus, uh, I think there are some other questions there that we can get into um to kind of explain maybe what God was doing. We know that um the earth and humanity were not God's first creation. Like that that's not where he started. Even though our Bible starts there in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, um, we know that there was another previous, I don't know what you want to call it. Uh it sounds weird when you say civilization, yeah. But the all the angels that we read about in the Bible, some are given names, all of them were created before the earth was ever created. So if you want to take Genesis 1-1 as like God created the heavens and the earth, well, then you're gonna have to split the earth off from the heavens and say, well, that the heavens and all the beings that filled the heavens were his first creation because we know the earth is newer than the angels, and we'll show we can show everybody that here in a minute.
SPEAKER_01Perfect. So that leads honestly to my our next question is you're talking about this civilization or whatever, so we we identify as them as angels, right? So if this question came in, if Satan and the angels could literally be in the presence of God, how could they rebel?
SPEAKER_00Well, that's um I mean that's a great question. But God didn't, in my opinion, God didn't create robots. Yeah. So he didn't create non-sentient beings that all their their primary purpose was just to uh be gophers, like go do this, go do that, submit, serve, worship. Like that's not in his creation, in his sovereignty, that's not how he created. He wanted and still wants, we see this all the way through scripture, um, a familial relationship. And so um, all the way through the old testament, you'll see this in the new testament. Uh, one of the incredible passages that we have is John 1, where um uh John is writing down some of the main things about the good news, and that is to everyone who believes in his name, he gave in the our English translation say the right, the Greek word is exusia, which means the authority, he gave the authority to become children of God, sons of God, which is so incredible to think about. Um, that he wants a family, so so much so I mean he created that the angels, they are called sons of God in the old testament. Then in the New Testament, we're we're like the the younger sibling, and we're we are now given the opportunity to become sons of God, but we have to believe in his name. It's a it was the it was the same, in my opinion, with the angels. They were given this uh autonomy to decide who they're gonna serve. We don't know how many rebellions there have been. Yeah we don't in pre-earth history. We don't know the Bible doesn't necessarily talk about every single one of them that could have possibly been. We don't know if there have been some pre previous creations of sentient beings that have been cut off from the presence of God because they've rebelled against him. We just we just don't know the Bible doesn't reference them. And so uh I think we just need to open up our minds to the fact that God created us. A lot of people will will take issue with this, but with with a free will, with a with a choice or a decision to follow him, to submit to him, whose side are you on, whose kingdom are you gonna serve? In the New Testament, we learn that there are only two fathers, and that's Yahweh, that's Father God, and there's Satan, the devil. And he says that to the Pharisees, you're of your father, the devil. There are only two two kingdoms you can serve. And so that is our primary responsibility here on the earth is to choose which kingdom we're gonna be in. And so are we gonna serve God, are we gonna be loyal to him, be a son or a daughter, or are we gonna rebel and be a rebellious, rebellious child?
SPEAKER_01Because it seems like there's a pattern here that that God assigns us and also the angels, or all if we look at, and I was doing a little research on this question of like in Jude 6 it says, and I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of the authority God gave them, but left the place where they belonged. So if God assigned them a role to fulfill or um a place where they needed to be, what was their response with it being if they have they have this free will? Well, they didn't operate within the authority given to them, so then thus they are responsible for the consequences of that. So just like us, we we are given that same choice. What are we gonna do with what's been given to us, and we have to to answer for that. And the other thing, too, with this is like proximity to God won't it to me, that doesn't dictate our obedience. Samuel and Eli, right, where proximity to the Holy of Holies, Eli is is the priest. Look at his sons, Hophani and Phineas, they're sinning and they still have access to the to the Holy of Holies versus Samuel goes all the way and sleeps as close as he can, but and he's still learning to listen and decipher the voice of God. It was his his choice in that time, and look what Samuel became.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that um it's it's very evident, especially from that Jude passage you wrote, if the if if God created us without free will and he assigned a position of authority to us or to the angels, then there would be no opportunity to even rebel. Like it would just be like there's if this is what God assigned, if you don't believe in in free will, then you're like, well, God must have made a mistake. Yeah. Right? And and so I think that's I think that's where um where I tend to to on the spectrum. I'm definitely God has called us, God has chosen, and whatever, but there is definitely an element of for sure, a heavy element of free will in the decisions that we make and in everything in life. God wants to partner with us. He does not want a robotic army or robotic family, he wants people that choose him.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because it's the better, first of all, it's the better way, but choose him out of out of love, and they know that his way is always gonna be for our benefit, it's always gonna be better for us. It's not the easy way, but it's always the better way. And so um that's that's that's a great, great observation. And I I haven't even preached this yet, but somebody at a recent conference said this, and it struck me, and I'm like, they're mistaken because I'd never heard this before. But when the Ark of the Covenant is on its way back to Jerusalem for the first time, David puts it on a cart, right? And here's the Ark of the Covenant, and there are two guys surrounded one in front, one in back. Um, Ahio is in the front, and Uza is in the back, and their father, and I'd never seen this before, and their father was a Minadab, and the Ark had been resting or had been staying at a Minadab's house for I don't know how long. And so David decides to bring it to Jerusalem, and you always read about the threshing floor of Nakon and Nishon, whatever it is, I don't know, the name doesn't matter. But they come to the threshing floor, the oxen stumble. Uzzah reaches out his hand to steady the ark, seems like a good uh thing to be doing so it doesn't fall on the ground. But the anger of the Lord is kindled against Uzzah, and and and Uzzah dies right there, and David's mad. And I think I would have had the same reaction David did. But something that can might be gained from this is that if the presence of God, the ark was at Aminadab's house with Ahio and Uzzah for how many years, and maybe familiarity got the best of him, and he was like it just became too normal, too natural, and I think that's where you know we have to be cognizant that God is a holy God, He's He's extremely loving, but He's extremely holy, and there needs to be that reverence and awe and fear when we're when we're talking about Yahweh, and um I mean we see so like you're saying, um closeness or uh the the area around where God dwells, that doesn't if you get too familiar like like Satan did, he's like, I think I can do that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think uh and how many how many times have uh human beings felt like that in whatever company they're in and whatever ministry they're in, you're around the leader, you're around the CEO, and you're like, Man, I think I could do that, without knowing what kind of mantle or weight that they actually carry. You don't know what goes on behind the scenes. And like like for me, when I was a young, young minister, I thought it was all about just the Sunday morning 30 minutes to an hour of preaching. Yeah, I could I could do that as well as they could, so maybe I should be in that position, right? And it's it's never like that. There's so many things, there's a mantle, there's a weight, and there's an anointing that God puts on you for a certain role. And so that's how humans rebel, that's how angels rebel. Um they can get upset at what God does, his decisions, and we'll speculate a little bit on on some of those things.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's like almost there's a pattern here that's being established of um of pride, to be honest, it's pride. And you look at um Isaiah 14, where he says, like, I will ascend above, you know, the throne above God, and and that that pattern we have that a choice to are we gonna go with that pattern that's been established, or are we gonna buck up against that and follow God?
SPEAKER_00So yeah. Yeah, good stuff.
SPEAKER_01So then kind of going similarly, if we continue in with this Genesis account, right, with with the angels, um, with when God makes man and and all of that, we kind of get into Genesis six, right? And then we get this like weird uh portion of scriptures about the the the sons of God, right? And then we have this thing about the Nephilim.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So can we kind of branch into that? Like what what are the Nephilim?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um before we do that, can we go back to Genesis 1 first? Yeah, sure. There's something that I wanted to make to show that I recently heard and listened to. Um, so yeah, on my iPad, you probably can be able to follow along. Here's Job 38. Job 38 says this, verse 1. Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, Who is that? Uh who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? So he's that that's like a direct rebuke on Job. Job is, you know, Job has gone through a lot and he's been faithful to the Lord, but but Yahweh says, Man, there is so much you don't even know. Uh verse three says, Dress for action like a man, I will question you and make it and you make it known to me. And this is important here. Verse 4. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? This is referring to Genesis 1.1. Tell me if you have understanding. Who determined its measurement? Surely you know. So uh one of my things is I love sarcasm. God is sarcastic right here, so there's precedent for that. Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone? Verse 7. This is super important. When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy. So, right here, morning stars and sons of God represent the heavenly beings that were already created when the earth was created. So they they weren't created at the same time. The angels, the morning stars, the sons of God, these are heavenly beings that God has already created when the earth was laid, the cornerstone, and he uses these uh figurative language to to represent the creation of the earth, that when it was completed, the morning stars, the sons of God, shouted for joy. So God's, if I could say this, first family that we know about, the sons of God shouted for joy. They rejoiced when the earth was created, when its foundations were laid, when the cornerstone, when it was being created, they were shouting for joy. They were rejoicing. Man, this is a great, great creation. So this is the very beginning, and we have angels rejoicing at its creation. So then we can go back to Genesis 1 1. It says in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And then verse 2. This is super important because it says the earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And then we get the quote creation account, or as I would probably say, the renovation account of this earth from formless and void to the earth that we now inhabit and we now know that humanity occupies. And so the theory is called the gap theory between Genesis 1.1 and Genesis 1.2, that there is a gap or space of time that we don't know how long that is. And I think that it's it's supported here by the words, and I'm gonna show you in the Hebrew. The words here says the earth was without form and void. And so I'm gonna click on here. This is the blue letter Bible app, the one I'm most familiar with. I'm gonna go to the interlinear concordance, and I'm gonna read here. So you have you have the earth here in the middle, you see that the earth, and that's eretz, and then was that word is hayah. Okay, haya. Um, and the haya, the verbs in uh Hebrew are not uh passive verbs like we know them, like linking verbs, like was Hayah indicates an action. So we can even see this if I click on Hayah here. If I tap on it, you can go here and you can see down here it says, I mean, it lists a whole bunch of things, but most of them are all active. To be, to become, to come to pass, to exist, to happen, to fall out. So uh a better way of translating that word haya here is the earth became. Or it came to pass, the earth came to pass, or the earth became, and then we see here formless and void. So those words tohu and bohu. Tohu and bohu, that phrase is with the with the and in there is tohu va bohu. And this is used, the word bohu is used only three times. This is one of the times, and then so I'm gonna click on it and I'm gonna show you the other passages where it is. So you can see the outline of its usage is emptiness, void, or waste. So the earth became formless and wasteful, or formless and void. There was emptiness there. And so we're gonna go down here, it's used in Genesis 1, 2, you can see there, and then in Isaiah 34, 11. 34 11. This is actually Isaiah writing, and if we go and we can see, it'll be right here in the middle. If you go back up here, uh it's just a judgment on the Lord. I'll just read a little bit their land shall drink, it's full of blood, their soil, their soil shall be gorged with fat. For Yahweh has a day of vengeance. Vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion, the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, her soil into sulfur, her land shall become burning pitch. You see kind of what the theme is here. Night and day it shall not be quenched, its smoke shall go forever, from generation to generation shall lie waste, none shall pass through it forever. And then we have verse 11 that's highlighted But the hawk and the porcupine shall possess it, the owl and the raven shall dwell in it, he shall stretch the line of confusion over it, and the plumb line of emptiness. So this is where we get that same phrase, Tohu Vabohu, in Isaiah 34. It's a it's a uh passage, a context of judgment. Then you have Jeremiah 4 23. And some scholars say that this is actually Jeremiah looking backwards and seeing what uh what happened, what has happened to the earth. So I'll start verse 20. Crash follows hard on crash, the whole land is laid waste, suddenly my tents are laid waste, my curtains in a moment. How long must I see the standard and hear the sound of the trumpet? For my people are foolish, they know me not, they're stupid children, they have no understanding, they are wise in doing evil, but how to do good they know not. I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void. So Jeremiah is saying, I looked on the earth and it was without form and void, and to the heavens they had no light. Um so we have here three instances of where this word is used, and it's both all three times. Well, the two times for sure we know are in judgment. And so if you go back into Genesis 1, 2, we can kind of uh speculate that there was probably something, especially with the verb Hayah, the earth became formless and void, tohu vabohu, that it may have been a judgment of God. And so if you kind of think about it in Job, we see the sons of God there, and the the earth is possibly given to um some people speculate, they say Satan or Lucifer to rule over. And this is okay, so this is speculation, and you can take it or leave it, but then we have all the passages you were talking about where Satan says, I'm gonna ascend the Mount of Sim, I'm gonna ascend to the most and become like the Most High. And um, so he wasn't satisfied with his rule or domain, and so he says, I'm gonna do this while he is cast out, and then if we're speculating that between Genesis 1.1 and Genesis 1-2, there is a judgment on the earth, and the earth becomes tohu vabohu, formless and void. How long it's like that, we don't know. We have no idea. Uh, but then Genesis 1-2 ends with hope, but the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And I heard a great uh a great um reference to Noah and the Ark. Noah sends out a raven, and the raven is uh like a carnivorous animal and it just it just leaves, but then Noah sends out a dove, right? What does the dove represent? Represents the Holy Spirit. When the dove when the dove says it's ready, then it's ready for them to come off the ark. The Spirit of God, the dove was hovering over the waters, and then we're gonna have another renovation in Genesis 1.3 when it starts with God, let there be light. And then you have another renovation after the flood when the dove says it's okay. When so Noah. So um there's a lot of great symbolism in scripture, and the thing that we want to be mindful of, and this is a great um interpretation skill for everyone with studying the Bible, is that Laman, I think it's it's Ecclesiastes says there's nothing new under the sun. So stuff that has happened before will be happening over and over and over and over again until Jesus comes back just in different forms, and we can kind of see it. That's why it's so important to know scriptures, why it's so important to know history, um, even in our political culture that we're in right now, um, and and communism and socialism. If we knew history, we'd be like, we would be shutting this out. If we just interviewed people from North Korea or the old uh Soviet Republic, would they be like, stop, stop, don't go this road. This is what it leads to. If we just knew that, because stuff happens in cycles and it happens over and over again. And so, um, like when we read Revelation, that's something to keep in mind. This is something that has happened, it is happening, and it will happen again. So, um, yeah, so that's the kind of the gap theory, and there's a lot of stuff and a lot of speculation that we could do there, but um, I tend to lean this way now in the fact that I don't think that God makes anything formless and void, you know, or that even um like in the beginning of when he created and the sons of God are shouting for joy, I don't think they would be shouting for joy at something that is a wasteland. Yeah, right. So, in my opinion, there's something that happens between Genesis 1-1 and Genesis 1-2. We're not given that detail in Genesis. There might be glimpses in other scriptures, um, but there's definitely there have definitely been several rebellions, whether human human rebellions or angelic rebellions in the past, and I think we'll we'll get into some of those, right?
SPEAKER_01I'm sure we will. And before we keep going on on this question, I just want to note like Pastor John is using Blue Letter Bible. We have so much information or tools and resources available to us. It just takes us downloading something from the app store and then using those to our benefit because it we could be so stuck in a dogmatic way of like I need to get my Bible reading done and I do it for the sake of I want to check a box. But if we want to really grow in this way, like look at look at these words and see how it comes alive to us and deepens our understanding of what was God doing at this time, and then how can I apply it in my life today? So again, so Pastor John uses a blue letter Bible and it's super user-friendly. So let's I don't know if you want to add to that, but we can continue on with this question what was happening in Genesis.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, I think there are so many different ways to read the Bible. Um, but one of the main ways that we we should read the Bible is with the help of the Holy Spirit. So anytime you're reading, say, Father, help me to understand what what you want me to understand today. God, I want this to be life-giving. It's it is life-giving. And so drop and plant something in me. Uh, let let let your word bear fruit. Because the written word of God is our primary defense against the attacks of the enemy. It's what Jesus used when he was being tempted by Satan himself. And so, and he and he didn't even use the New Testament. He used he used the Old Testament when he did it. So we have to know the Word of God. We have to know it. Um it's it's it's our primary weapon in defending against the attacks of this age, the all the all the lies that the enemy throws at us, all the the cultural things. Um, because we're in a we're in a we are in a we're in a tumultuous time right now, spiritually. So yeah, know the word of God. Start somewhere. If you've never read the Bible before, start in the New Testament, maybe 1 John, maybe the Gospel of uh Luke. Um just just somewhere where there's narrative and you can you can follow along. I wouldn't recommend starting in Revelation or Leviticus. Leviticus is where you go. You'll be done, you'll be done quickly. So um, yeah, just get to know, get to know the word, but get to know the God of the Word. And you and everybody and and the scripture says that his sheep hear his voice, so we can hear his voice still today. Okay. Where do you want to go from here?
SPEAKER_01Well, the original question was Was Genesis 6? Yeah, what are the Nephilim?
SPEAKER_00What are the Nephilim?
SPEAKER_01And you're kind of to answer that question, you understandably so, you're building the framework of that.
SPEAKER_00Correct. So we know if if let's just let's take our speculation that Lucifer, Satan, or the original, the original bad guy, okay, that we know is the original bad guy. Um, throughout the ages has become to know the revelation calls him the great dragon that was the ancient serpent. Um, let's just call him Satan. Yeah, and uh the Latin Vulgate in um in the Old Testament says Lucifer, that's where we get that name. So let's call him Satan, and let's say that he was in the garden with Adam and Eve, and everybody knows a story about the fall. Yep. And so really he says his way of getting into them in to getting them to fall was Did God really say this? And Eve replies to him, and maybe God said what he said to her. We don't have written record of God saying exactly what she said back to him. Maybe she added something, or maybe maybe we just don't have the record. But he she she quotes God, and then the devil says, That's not really gonna happen. You won't you won't die. Like he says, if you want to be like us, or I think a lot of translations say capital G God, if you want to be like like like God, if he knows if you eat from it, you'll be like him, or like us, and that word there is Elohim. And so that's this is a concept we for all of these um discussions that we have to master is that Elohim is a title, it's a class of being, it is not a personal name or a name of a divine being. It's a it can be we'll use the term Yahweh, that is God's name, the Yodhe Vavhe in Hebrew, Yahweh. Elohim can refer to the great Elohim, which is Yahweh, or it can refer to all of the divine beings that God created. And so Satan was an Elohim, you have uh Michael, the archangel, he's an Elohim, you have probably the gods of the Old Testament, Baal, Moloch, Ishtar, all of them, uh Dagon, um, even in getting into Greek mythology, probably Zeus and and and all those guys are what we would call Elohim. They're not they're not humankind, they're not mankind. And so if they're not in the Hebrew, Adam, which is humankind, Adam occupies the earth and is responsible for the earth, Elohim occupy the heavenly realm, and they're responsible for the heavenly realm. And so um Satan was an Elohim that was kicked out of that realm, and so he goes down um into the garden, and this garden had to be a magnificent place, the garden of Eden, which was probably also um in the in the region of a mountain or the mount of God. I think Ezekiel talks about that. Says, you were you were in Eden, the mountain of God, among the stones of fire. Um you were beautiful, you were covered with beautiful stones, and lists all the stones and and all that. I'm it's it's fleeing my mind right now what chapter that is in Ezekiel, but um I think it's about the king of Tyre. It's a it's a it's a judgment against the king of Tyre and it references Satan in this instance. And so Satan is there, he tempts them, and this is uh this is a major um backhand to Yahweh. It's like, man, if I if I can't have it, I'm gonna take this prize creation down. And so Adam and Adam and Eve fall, and that's the first rebellion. They're kicked out of the Garden of Eden, they're kicked out of that the very presence of God, and um then you have this realm of history that from Genesis 3 to Genesis 6 is like a massive amount of time, but there's very little written about it. But what we do know is that um the earth with sin and the world, uh mankind just kind of devolves and devolves and devolves even further. And then we get to Genesis six, one through four, right? And let's go, let's just go there and read it. Just because it's so pivotal in everything in all of scripture and why we deal with stuff, why the flood came and all that. So this is Genesis 6, 1. It says, when man began to begin to multiply in the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw the daughters of man were attractive, and they took as their wives any they chose. Now I think it's important here to just say this, and we don't we're I don't think I want to dive into proving the sons of God theory as angelic beings, but we just read in Job, right, when the earth was created that the sons of God shouted for joy. When this term is used in the Old Testament, it is referencing Elohim or divine beings, it is not referencing humanity. Um so we have a contrast here, the sons of God and the daughters of man. So they took as their wives any they chose, and then Yahweh said, My spirit shall not abide in man forever, he is flesh, his day shall be 120 years. That is not the point when God said, You're only gonna live to 120 years old. That is a point where from that point he said, You have 120 years basically to repent. And so um that is the time probably when Noah is preaching to everybody and nobody's listening to him. And so then verse 4, the Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward when the sons of God came into the daughters of man, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. And then the next verse says, The Lord saw the wickedness of man was great in the earth, every intention of the thoughts of his heart, only evil continually, and this path scripture right here is so sad. And Yahweh regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. Wow. Man, God is emotional, he's like it it stung him to his core that man, nobody really everybody's rebelling, nobody wants anything to do with me. I created man for my pleasure to have a family, and here's like the his first reject, like this rejection, rejection, rejection. They rejected God, and so that's when the flood comes. And so we don't get a lot of detail here from Moses. One of the reasons why I think this is is because they had oral tradition, then and Moses assumed a lot of information that we don't have. And so we get the information of Genesis 6 here, these four verses, in something called uh the book of Enoch. And one of the questions that we got is why is the book of Enoch not in the Bible? Well, it's not inspired. Yeah, the early church fathers decided that um it shouldn't be included in in um in the canon because of the authorship. It says the book of Enoch, but Enoch did not write most of it. There are parts of it that possibly Enoch wrote that made it through the flood and that made it into the the libraries, the Jewish libraries, um, for all time, and then then around two two to three hundred um BC, we start seeing the compilation and and copying of the book of Enoch. Um it starts starts making what what would you say a comeback, I guess. And people dismissed it for for a long time, and they say it's heretical and whatever, and like second and third Enoch get get a little way out there, right? They're they're crazy. But first Enoch actually um refers to this this instance in Genesis 6 and um talks about in detail about 200, they're called watchers. And um of the reasons why we place some stock on the book of Enoch is that it was found in the caves of Qumran in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and so right next to parts of Isaiah, right next to other gospels that were ancient and that were reliable, that were dated to the ear like the early first century, like these are some of the oldest manuscripts that we have of the book of Enoch of these other gospels, and and so we put some stock in it in it because we know that the disciples and Jesus knew about the book of Enoch. The term I believe it's in Mark that Jesus uses the most for himself is the son of man. That term is used over and over again in Enoch. It's only used once in the Old Testament, and that's in Daniel. Um, but the son of man term is used over and over in the book of Enoch. And so I believe Jesus pulls from it. I know that second that Peter and Jude pulled from it. They actually quoted the book of Enoch, and so it made it's part of the book of little little portion of the book of Enoch made it into what was considered inspired scripture. So we know that they knew about it, we know that they used it, and so it it's not canonized, but it's definitely valuable for giving us lenses to see what's going on, especially here in Genesis 6. The book of Enoch talks about 200 watchers, sons of God beings that came and vowed and covenanted together to go and rebel. They came down on Mount Hermon and they chose and vowed together to rebel against God, and this is the scripture that you read earlier from Jude 6 that they left their position of authority and decided to have children with the daughters of man. And so they wanted children. And here's where I speculate, okay? We okay to get into speculation a little bit. Perfect. I mean, we've been we've been talking about this. So my speculation is that the angelic beings were jealous of humanity because humanity could reproduce. Yeah. And we we read nowhere, nowhere in the Bible where angels can reproduce, where they they can breed with each other, uh, for lack of a better term. And so then we have this instance where God gives the younger sibling, if we want to say this, a coat of many colors per se, gives them just this incredible ability to procreate and to create an eternal being in their image after their likeness. And I believe the Elohim, the angels, were jealous, uh or at least some of them. Some of them were jealous. I mean, Satan was Satan was mad if I can say this about losing his authority or being cast out of heaven, and then these other these other Elohim, whether inspired by Satan or whatever, I don't know, when he became the ringleader, we just don't know any of that. But 200, according to the book of Enoch, decided to vacate their responsibility and go have children. And then so the reason why we have Nephilim, which are giants in the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament, it actually just says giants. It doesn't say Nephilim. So we know the Nephilim are giants, it's a race of giants made by the progeny of heavenly beings and human women. And so then that's when the whole earth becomes tainted. This is a uh grievous sin against the God of the universe, and we get this hybrid race of beings that pollute the whole earth. Yeah, they cannot be their their hunger can't be quenched, and so they the according to Enoch, they start eating humans, they start being cannibals, they're wicked, and just every everything was wicked. And so that's why we look at we sometimes look at God and say, Man, how how could he judge the whole earth like that? Like, how could he bring the flood? Man, the flood was the flood was merciful. For for that which is good, the flood was merciful. And so found somebody who was still after God in Noah and brought his and and saved Noah and his family, and then tried to try to do it again with Noah. And, you know, unless we have the Holy Spirit inside of us, unless we have the cross, we find out that we cannot, if we're left to ourselves, man, we're we're just gonna keep devolving and keep devolving. And so all of that stuff is going on in the old testament, and it becomes the undercurrent for the rest of the Bible. We have to see this background in there, yeah. For the and it's the undercurrent for the rest of the Bible. And just so I'm gonna I'm gonna telegraph this because I think this is important. A lot of a lot of Jewish uh scholars and and theologians and people think that the demons that are in the earth today that we deal with are. the spirits of the dead Nephilim. And when I heard that for the first time, I was like, what in the world are they talking about? How why would they why would they even say that? Well, first of all, we most of the time in the New Testament, they're not called demons. They're called unclean spirits.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Wow.
SPEAKER_00You don't, you don't, and we we use the term demon a lot, but they're called unclean spirits. And they have to, they want to possess things. They want to possess human bodies. That's their that's their goal. We don't have record of any Elohim type beings wanting to possess bodies. They want to rule they want to govern. They want to be worshipped but they don't ever we don't ever have any record in the in the Bible of them wanting to possess anybody like Satan possessing something. I mean the only the only person that we see that Satan ever possesses is the Antichrist the main the main dude at the end or the beast. But nobody no no Elohim ever tries to possess any human being that we see in scripture. But unclean spirits do. And so if we look at all of the different cultures around the world we see that there are in Greek mythology where they call they're called demigods right this is everywhere where you have gods and human women breeding together and then we have demigods we have these Hercules we have all these different all these different people these massive strong giants and whatever I mean this all it all came from one place. It all came from one source just like the flood narratives in all the different cultures it came from one place. And I think that we would it would behoove us as Christians not to just um push off all of this information this yeah stuff has been exaggerated stuff is not uh it's legend a lot now but I believe it came from a certain source and it would behoove us not to just dismiss everything just offhand while it's not in the Bible right yeah I think that there is some value in using some of this information to color what the Bible says because it will give us better application of of how we can live our life so no this is so good and you you touched a little bit on on this demonic activity or unclean clean spirits and I don't know if we were we're going to go into this question but we got one about like how do we deal with paranormal activity ghosts like is that is that real do we even approach that like what is our response as Christians to the paranormal if we're a believer we're probably going to run into if we're doing the will of God that we're probably going to run into some resistance from um anti-God forces whatever that looks like right whether we want to call it demons, unclean spirits um I mean the Bible doesn't shy away from shy away from this stuff and it doesn't mean that we're going to understand it all but what about when King Saul in the Old Testament goes and consults a medium the witch of indoor and pulls up Samuel's spirit like I don't know if that's it's obviously possible still I believe I don't probably not for saints like I've never heard of them trying to connect with the spirit of a I mean maybe in some denominations they do but connect with the spirit of a saint to try to get whatever but we know or we we can hypothesize from scripture that there was a holding place for the Old Testament saints that was separate from the where the where the pagans and and anti-god Old Testament people went. So Samuel's probably in a in a place they called it Hades or Sheol where everybody went there's a good side and a bad side until until Jesus died on the cross and was uh resurrected and and and I believe brought them into the literal presence of God after that because of because of his blood that was shed um but at that time they were still able apparently however if it was illegal I mean it it was not it was not uh it was rebellious to God you're not supposed to do that but it was possible apparently there are all sorts of forces there are all sorts of dark arts black mat whatever you want to say um if you want to get in touch with the dark side there's power there and and you could do it and there are places that are spiritually wicked there are places that have that that wickedness has gone on for so long that it becomes a stronghold in geography yeah where you can walk into a place and it is it's wicked and it's evil and you can sense it and you can feel it. I was listening to podcast this morning from Pastor Landon in in in Fort Worth and he said when he walked one time when he went into to DC I mean Washington DC is a wicked place right now. I'm sure if you it differently than Vegas okay so you have Vegas in my opinion is a place full of depravity Washington DC is a place that is corrupt and and and has principality like strong principalities there because of decisions that are made. So Vegas is is corrupt and you'll you'll you'll sense demonic activity there and it's wicked and it's dark but but DC is corrupt and powerful and and principalities. I think a lot of that is just demonic activity. If there is anything that creates fear in a person that is not coming from God. Yeah if if it's anxiety if it's any of that it's not coming from the Lord. And so um that's got to be from a camp or a tributary whatever of the enemy of the enemy's forces. And so when that comes then we have to you know what the weapons of our warfare are not carnal they're not fleshly but they're mighty they're mighty in God so that's when we take every thought captive. Yes sometimes if if if we're not familiar and we are not and we are not um haven't been commissioned by the Lord to go into an area or a or a place I wouldn't suggest going there. You know like there might be a spirit or a force that's more powerful than you are. Even if you're saved even if you have the blood of Jesus you don't necessarily have the authority to go take on something that God hasn't given you the authority to do. It's like the seven sons of Skeva in the book of Acts right they thought they could cast them the demons out just by using a name well the name is above every other name but that doesn't mean that they have the authority right to go and do that. So but Paul did Paul had the authority but these these exorcists did not so um I I don't have a great answer for that one. I know that there are places of wickedness in the world I know I'm sure that there are portals to wherever in this in this world there are places that are holy to the kingdom of darkness that that that geographically this is a wicked place and they still have access to the dark to the dark places. So um I would say you know our job is to obey the Lord and wherever he tells us to go that means he's given us authority to do what he's told us to do and to walk in that authority.
SPEAKER_01And I think like on top of that our response is we need to guard our eyes because I think the Hollywood has just conditioned us to think that this is normal and maybe even in a in a funny way or for our entertainment sake so they're conditioning you that this is this is a movie right but in all actuality you could be opening something in your spirit to be okay with that so and like it says in the word like for you wrestle not against flesh and blood but against what principalities and powers rulers of the darkness so it's like by you opening that door you're just communicating to the spiritual realm like hey come on in I'm okay with this like you said the weapons of our warfare are not carnal. So I think our response as as Christians is guard what we see and then two we're not to be afraid of these things because you have been given the tools to combat that whether it's it's scripture our prayer life um God's not gonna leave us unequipped but it's our it's our duty to to learn and be equipped and enact those those tools that he's given us yeah that's really good and and practically speaking um like you're mentioning Hollywood I I have just seen explosion even on commercials or trailers whatever on TV uh just an explosion of horror movies.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I I don't I've never I I I I hate to admit this like one time I watched the way back when I watched Scream the first one I watched it and I that's the only movie like that I've ever watched and I don't I've never watched a movie like that since then it's it's not good for you and and if I can encourage believers or any this would work for anybody if you watch horror movies you need to stop you are inviting the demonic realm into your house. I mean and and I wouldn't even especially horror movies. There's nothing to be gained by watching a horror movie ever. Yeah so if that's legalistic then fine call me legalist but I it you will be better off if you don't watch horror movies.
SPEAKER_01I'm just I mean you said it from the pulpit many times like if I if you say something and you do it this will not hurt you. This advice that I'm giving you will not hurt you. So you I don't think you're losing anything by not partaking in that or or watching it.
SPEAKER_00No that's so good. Do you want to discuss anything else? Are we good for today?
SPEAKER_01I think we're good for today.
SPEAKER_00Alright we covered a lot of ground kind of hit and miss kind of shotgun but I'm sure this will inspire some other questions and that's great if it inspires some other questions. But the main thing here is that when we talked about these rebellions we've talked about the enemies of God um we're still in the middle of that right now. Yeah we're still in the middle of that and and the even the Lord's prayer is really kind of a war cry your kingdom come your will be done on earth as it is in heaven so if if his kingdom is to come here then then his kingdom has to expand and that means that ground has to be taken and that is that means conflict that means war. And so one of the things we got to realize is that we are in the middle of a war and our greatest our greatest weapon against that is our time with God and the word of God. We have to hear him we have to know him and we have to know what his word says and if we can do that the enemy has a lot less inroads into our life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah so and similarly I forgot to mention this earlier with it's easy to get into a rabbit hole and be overly fascinated with these things but then I think our heart's cry is I need to know you more father if if you're spending way too much time on this and neglecting your intimacy or love for the father then you're out of balance. Yeah so seek first God and then he'll equip you to deal with all this other things by the Holy Spirit's guidance he'll give you that that revelation as well but take it as a as a check in your spirit to well maybe I need to put this fascination and away and I just need to pursue the heart of the Father during this time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah that's so good.
SPEAKER_01John great first episode looking forward to doing this again in the future thank you for listening to the Beyond Sunday podcast if you like this content go ahead and like it or share it with a friend. That would be greatly appreciated. And if you'd like to submit a question you can go ahead and do so by clicking the link in the show notes