WEBVTT 00:00:03.839 --> 00:00:08.160 Alright, so last two Sundays we have done messages on suffering and death. 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:11.919 One, two punch of just joy in a series about joy. 00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:15.599 We're going through Philippians. 00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:23.760 And I mentioned on Sunday that we would record a podcast about this kind of uh dichotomy. 00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:24.960 Is that okay? 00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:25.199 Okay. 00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:34.000 Of scripture that talks about suffering as a legitimate, it's like something you should expect. 00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:42.880 Like we all suffer, and God actually uses that suffering and He He produces in us, we grow through it, you know, like we mature in that. 00:00:43.039 --> 00:00:52.880 But then also all these promises of like healing and God intervening, because it's like it's easy to go to one of two extremes. 00:00:53.039 --> 00:01:01.520 You know, one extreme would be suffering is part of the world, we all suffer, and God, you know, just kind of lets us do that. 00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:03.600 I grew up in a church that we didn't pray for people to be healed. 00:01:03.759 --> 00:01:05.359 That wasn't something I have no memory of. 00:01:05.599 --> 00:01:13.359 I mean, I think we all believed he could and did, and there was it's obviously in the Bible, but we were more like God be with their doctor kind of a church. 00:01:13.519 --> 00:01:14.239 You know, it makes sense. 00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:20.079 But then I've experienced the others where there's this belief that, like, no, I mean God will heal you. 00:01:20.239 --> 00:01:26.879 And if you have enough faith, and you will be healed, you will experience that. 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:29.040 And so suffering is something we come against. 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:35.840 Like in the name of Jesus, we you know Which is interesting because I bet if you This is me just talking off the top of my head. 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:37.280 Yeah, we haven't planned, by the way. 00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:39.439 No pre pre-discussion. 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:41.760 This is this might hopefully this doesn't create a crisis of faith. 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:43.359 But point is there's tension in this. 00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:51.760 I bet if you counted all the times that there was a promise for healing or an expectation of healing versus all of the times there was an expectation of suffering. 00:01:52.079 --> 00:01:52.400 Right. 00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:57.680 I think that the promises of suffering would probably outweigh like anticipate this. 00:01:57.840 --> 00:01:58.000 Yeah. 00:01:58.159 --> 00:02:03.920 Would be a there probably are a lot more verses like that, but that might also be because of the context of what's going on. 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:08.560 I had a good uh I have a friend conversation with a really good friend after that suffering one. 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:10.879 Um, and he was wrestling with it. 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:14.960 And he's he's an he's a guy who I have a ton of respect for. 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:20.159 He very much believes that God will heal you. 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:21.520 Like that's a okay. 00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:23.120 And he made one, he made a really good point. 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:26.400 He's like, hey, I think you know, suffering is a pretty broad category. 00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:26.639 Yeah. 00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:27.120 Sure. 00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:27.520 Right? 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:32.400 Because there's there's suffering like Paul was suffering because of persecution. 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:33.039 Sure. 00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:37.120 And his point was like, yeah, God's never promised us that we would not be persecuted. 00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:37.439 Right. 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:39.759 Then there's suffering that's brought on by your own just life choices. 00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:42.560 You're suffering because of decisions you've made or bad investments. 00:02:42.879 --> 00:02:46.479 Someone else so or someone else did something and you suffer as a result of that. 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:50.319 But then there's like sickness and natural suffering. 00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:52.080 Yeah, like the yeah, like sickness. 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:54.000 Like a tornado hits your house. 00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:54.560 Sure. 00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:55.360 There's that. 00:02:55.599 --> 00:03:05.199 And uh and I think he was specifically maybe more focused on sickness because you know, there's this idea in the Old Testament where sickness would be part of like the curse. 00:03:05.599 --> 00:03:08.639 Disease is something that is a result of that curse. 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:17.840 And that's and then in the new covenant, you know, that we have from this person's perspective, like promises of that curse being broken. 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:23.360 You know, and then and to his point, it's like, well, every time Jesus says someone that comes up to him who's sick, like have you guys watch The Chosen? 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:24.080 Yes. 00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:28.960 Okay, but say this for those of you chosen fans, I like the chosen. 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:30.479 The chosen is not the Bible. 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:31.680 I'm a big fan of the chosen. 00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:32.639 I think it's great. 00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:34.560 I I'm happy with chosen. 00:03:34.639 --> 00:03:37.840 Uh and at the time this is being recorded, I'm not aware of any major controversy with the chosen. 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:39.360 So five years from now there might be. 00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:39.680 I don't know. 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:40.800 But my point is really through. 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:49.199 But there's a scene that there's an interesting scene in the chosen, I think it's season three or whatever, where one of the disciples, they kind of added a um Little James has a limp. 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:49.840 He has a limp. 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:52.080 Or uh, something like that. 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:53.439 He's got a he's got an issue. 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:55.759 And he kind of asked Jesus, why haven't you healed me? 00:03:55.919 --> 00:03:56.000 Right. 00:03:56.159 --> 00:04:05.039 And Jesus gives him this story about this spiel about like, well, because actually you're you're basically gonna be more effective having this. 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:05.439 Right. 00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:09.759 And it's really a lot of people were like, that really encouraged me because they they have that stuff. 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:11.360 And it's cool, but Jesus never said that. 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:11.680 Right. 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:21.439 There's actually no situation where Jesus ever unless I'm wrong, I can't think of a time where Jesus told someone, actually, I'm gonna let you have this. 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:27.279 The closest you get is to it's when he's healing someone when they're asking him, whose fault is this? 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:28.319 Aaron Powell Yeah, the blind man. 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:30.720 No, no, for the so that the glory of God can be displayed. 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:31.040 Right. 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:32.399 And they're saying whose fault is it? 00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:32.560 Yeah. 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:32.959 Yeah, yeah. 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:34.639 Not not it wasn't his parents or his. 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:35.519 This is all for the glory of God. 00:04:35.920 --> 00:04:36.399 For the glory of God. 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:40.000 So it's like a weird remix interpretation of that in the context of his blindness. 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:43.120 Right. 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:49.120 So the point the guy the point this guy makes is hey, when every time someone who's sick comes to Jesus for healing, they receive it. 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:51.680 He never says, actually, this is part of God's will for your life. 00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:52.959 No, I'm gonna let you keep that one. 00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:53.199 Right. 00:04:53.600 --> 00:05:02.000 And uh, you know, the time when the Jesus comes down from the mountain and the disciples can't, they failed to heal this person, and he's like, they're like, why couldn't we heal him? 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:03.680 And he just goes, I was a little boy too. 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:05.439 Yeah, he just goes, 'cause you don't have enough faith. 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:13.839 Like he just says it like that, which we've had conversations about that, where all that to say, um, there's a tension that's there. 00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:18.160 And I like tension, uh, or I'm okay with tension because I think that's how we grow. 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:23.120 And I guess what I'm saying is the tension that I see at his hands, we're kind of a unique church in a lot of ways. 00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:40.879 One of those ways is we are not a hyper charismatic church in the sense that it's every Sunday is a uh and I'm not I'm I'm obviously speaking in broad strokes, I'm not trying to categorize, but some people have had experiences with kind of hyper charismatic where rather than me talk about what does that bring to y'all's minds when I say that. 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:43.279 Well, no, I'm just what brings to our minds. 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:45.360 When I say like hyper charismatic, what is that? 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:50.319 Well, I think there's you know a spectrum of different, you know, churches. 00:05:50.480 --> 00:06:12.319 And when you when you think of um churches that lean more towards the like charismatic demonstrative church, um and you have have people that have the theol theology where um you know speaking t in tongues is like something that happens all the time in corporate worship services, right. 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:20.639 Um where it's more um, I would say more chaotic in a church service um corporately. 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:22.319 Um so that's what I when you say. 00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:35.439 But there's but there's often a heavy emphasis on the there's a heavy emphasis on demonstrative, like corporately demonstrative things like And I would say even like signs and wonders. 00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:43.360 There's a huge there there's been like Bethel Church in on the West Coast, there's been a whole movement of churches kind of involved out of that. 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:57.279 There's a heavy emphasis on signs and wonders that when we get together, there's gonna be things are gonna happen, and those are supernatural things, and and those signs and wonders are actually the proof that God is is active. 00:06:57.439 --> 00:06:58.639 There's a a big emphasis. 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:04.879 So there's healings are gonna be happening left and right, and that that there's a whole movement of that, right? 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:07.120 Do you know what a modesty blanket is? 00:07:07.439 --> 00:07:09.360 I don't know to a charismatic church. 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:09.600 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:10.560 What's a modesty blanket? 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:12.560 Oh, when someone falls and passes out, you put it over them. 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:26.480 Yeah, because if you're a woman wearing a dress or whatever, it's like you put a blanket over top to make sure that you know whatever angle you fell, no one can see people are falling down, there's all that it's it's I'm saying like the demonstrative, like yeah. 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:27.040 Yeah. 00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:34.800 And then on the flip side, there's churches that I guess this would be more like dispensationalist where you don't believe that the spirit throwing out all the terms today. 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:39.759 I'm sorry, but this okay, so this would be more like I don't think that the Holy Spirit is active in that way anymore. 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:48.720 That was more like just for that time of the the early church, and so those are churches where you're never gonna have someone pray for for healing and and all that. 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:53.040 And at his hands, my point is we're kind of like there's tension. 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:54.879 Like you lead the prayer team. 00:07:55.040 --> 00:07:56.160 You guys ever pray for healing? 00:07:56.319 --> 00:07:56.560 Yes. 00:07:57.199 --> 00:07:58.000 How often talk about it? 00:07:58.240 --> 00:07:58.800 Every Sunday. 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:00.560 Okay, like in what context? 00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:15.839 Um, so leading the prayer team on Sundays, we have like you said, we have a a very varied, a very varied um background as uh as people at our church. 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:28.560 So um when you come in for prayer, we will pray for people to be healed, but it's not in a um chaotic or um No, the prayer room is very peaceful most of the time. 00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:30.720 Yeah, it's a very peaceful environment. 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:36.080 So it's a very biblical way to pray for someone to be healed. 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:45.360 You know, it says that we're supposed to you know anoint with oil and lay on of hands, and so our prayer team functions as the elders of the church in that regard. 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:54.480 Um so if someone needs physical healing and they come in for that, um, we have oil in the prayer room and we always ask if that's something that they want. 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:58.159 We never like we don't ever put oil on someone by surprise. 00:08:58.480 --> 00:08:59.279 Is it magic oil? 00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:10.080 Yeah, so describe that what for someone that's listening to this being like, what are you you're referencing James where it says if any of them among you is sick, yes, they should go before the elders of the church who should anoint them with oil and lay hands on them and pray for their healing. 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:10.320 Yes. 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:13.600 And it says that the prayer of a righteous person is effective. 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:14.960 Like Yeah, those are yeah. 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:16.080 Is that the same? 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:18.720 Um Maybe I might I might be mushing those together. 00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:21.120 But either way, that's what the So what's the what's the oil about? 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:25.919 Um so it's just um like an unscented um pressed oil. 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:28.960 Canola, I think it's olive oil. 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:34.399 Um and it's just in a little we have a like in little vials so that it's not like a big like thing of oil. 00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:38.399 Um but it's just an unscented oil, it's not anything specifically. 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:39.519 But what's the purpose of it? 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:40.879 Like what is that about? 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:48.000 Um I think that it doesn't say specifically in the Bible that like this oil is special in any way. 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:55.360 Other than that, it's like a physical moment of um remembrance for us that we've prayed and asked God for this. 00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:57.759 It's kind of like, you know, is baptism special? 00:09:57.919 --> 00:09:58.720 Is water special? 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:04.639 Is it like the water in the baptism tanks isn't like specially filtered anointed water? 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:08.080 It's just oh we ship all of our baptism water straight from the Jordan River. 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:09.919 It's all that'd be awesome. 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:10.879 That would be really cool. 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:11.919 So unnecessary. 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:13.279 It's just we spend a lot. 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:14.799 Yeah, we get that baptism water. 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:16.639 It's just it's like a physical thing. 00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:21.279 I think God knows that as physical people, we need something that's like, oh, I did that. 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:22.000 I prayed for that. 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:25.679 It's the same reason that we're praying like with other people. 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:34.799 We can pray for our own healing at home, but there's something about going to other people saying, Hey, I need prayer for this, and someone coming up to you and holding your hand and saying, We're praying together. 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:38.320 Like we need that, like, and there's lots of Old Testament stuff about anointing with oil. 00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:38.879 That was a tradition. 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:40.399 My point, my point is we do that. 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:42.799 Like we see people get healed. 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:48.480 We do see people get healed in the prayer room, and it happens in a lot of ways. 00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:58.320 And so when I say people get healed, it's like it's like saying people come to Jesus or saying people um it there's so many different ways that that can happen. 00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:04.639 So like your experience of coming to know Jesus was different than your experience of coming to Jesus, which is different than mine. 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:07.759 So saying, Yeah, people get healed, it's so different. 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:11.840 Even when you read in scripture about people being healed, it happened in so many different ways. 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:17.759 Sometimes Jesus spit in the mud, sometimes Jesus touched them, sometimes they were healed just because he said so and they were healed from a distance. 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:36.080 So when people come into the prayer room and we pray for them to be healed, there are times that I have, and I I mean I can't speak for everyone in the prayer room, our team is large, um, but there are times where I've prayed for people and I have felt like my hands get warm when I'm praying for them and we're praying for their healing. 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:40.559 There are some times where I feel nothing and nothing happens. 00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:41.120 Right. 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:46.480 And then they'll come back and say, like, yeah, I went home and like four days later something happened. 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:57.840 Or I'll be praying with a person for someone else that's not even there, and then they'll say, Yeah, they went to their doctor, and their doctor did a scan, and they're like, Oh, our last scan must have been wrong. 00:11:57.919 --> 00:11:58.799 They don't need that surgery now. 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:02.559 Yeah, we've had a lot, but I say we've had a lot of those like I have to go in for surgery. 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:03.120 We pray. 00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:05.759 We've had I say a lot, we've multiple times I know of people who've come back. 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:07.440 Right. 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:08.000 You know what I mean? 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:10.720 We've retroactively ruined a lot of MRI machines. 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:14.480 Yeah, well, and then and then it's like, yeah, you go, well, oh, maybe they're scan was the scan just wrong? 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:16.240 Or what's like, no, they got healed. 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:16.480 Right. 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:21.919 And then there've been times where we've prayed for someone to be healed, and we've prayed over and over and over again. 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:29.200 And then what's happening is they're going through chemo, but they're not experiencing all the negative side effects of their chemo medication. 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:30.320 Does that count? 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:31.679 Yeah, that counts. 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:40.960 Like they're still going through the things that they have to go through, but their doctors are going, yeah, this chemo medicine should be doing X, Y, and Z. 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:44.320 You should be experiencing all, but you're not, and the chemo's working. 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:53.600 So the thing about praying for people to be healed is I have I have talked with God a lot about this. 00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:56.399 There are times that I'll pray for people and they leave, and I don't know what happens. 00:12:56.639 --> 00:13:05.120 So it's not like it's um you just pray and like everybody gets healed the same way all the time, or everyone even gets healed. 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:06.320 I don't know what happens. 00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:07.600 I can't really say. 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:08.080 Right. 00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:13.120 But I do know that I'm not really in the business of telling God what to do. 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:20.320 So when someone comes in and says, I am going through cancer, I need healing. 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:25.279 I don't go before the Lord and say, Okay, God, this person has cancer. 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:28.480 Take away their cancer, it has to be removed from their body. 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:32.159 This is how you're gonna do it, and this is what's going to happen in Jesus' name, amen. 00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:32.559 Right. 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:35.519 Because God is God and I am not. 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:41.840 So And there are sometimes in the hyper charismatic side, there is that level of like confident prayer. 00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:56.639 And I prophesy and I telling you, and we're done with this, and and and it's like, well, and and to be honest, there are a lot of different ways to pray for people, and there may be people who pray that way, and God is telling them to pray that way. 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:02.080 I don't I guess I don't tell God what to do. 00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:06.399 So I just bring things before the Lord and say, Lord, you do whatever you want to do. 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:08.080 Here's what I'm asking. 00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:15.600 I'm asking that you remove the cancer from their body, and I'm asking that you take care of this, and I'm asking that all of this be gone in your name. 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:17.440 And I'm asking this of you. 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:20.799 And I'm obviously your God. 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:21.279 Right. 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:28.960 So we're asking that the cancer be gone, we're asking that all of this be gone, but I don't really declare before the Lord things that are his job and not mine. 00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:33.440 So yeah, because with that hypercharismatic, and again, it's okay, hyper charismatic. 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:34.000 I gotta be careful. 00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:37.279 I it could probably sound like every time I say that God told me, Megan, right? 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:45.360 God told me, Megan, you right now declare, if I heard from the Lord, you declare in this person that their cancer be gone, I would do it. 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:45.840 Right. 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:49.440 So I'm not saying if someone has ever prayed that they're wrong. 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:50.000 Right. 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:55.679 I just know that I'm I don't declare things that God doesn't tell me to declare. 00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:55.840 Right. 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:59.200 I don't speak on God's behalf without Him telling me very clearly. 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:04.559 I don't I don't want to say there there's a verse, I think it's in Haggai, is it Haggai? 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:06.159 Oh my gosh, it's probably Haggai. 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:06.879 Habakkuk. 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:15.120 It's in one of those minor prophets, and I'm I'm probably getting confused where the prophets were going around saying, peace, safety, peace, safety, and God's like, I didn't say that. 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:15.360 Yeah. 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:20.480 So I don't ever want to tell someone peace safety, like you're gonna be healed this way. 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:21.919 You're gonna be healed this way. 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:24.080 Sorry, if God didn't tell me that. 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:38.639 So I um I ask of the Lord, I bring the person before the Lord, I will declare peace, because I believe that's something that God definitely says, but I'm not gonna declare a disease out of someone's body if God did not say that. 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:42.399 I will not be one of those prophets saying peace safety if God did not declare it. 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:44.559 Yeah, and so again, I don't know what happened to those prophets before. 00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:44.960 Right. 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:48.960 And when I'm saying, like, when I said like the hypercharismate, I'm not saying it as a derogatory thing. 00:15:49.039 --> 00:15:50.799 I'm I'm maybe there may be a better descriptor. 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:57.600 What I'm saying is in that, when you're talking about, there's very much a kind of like a we have authority, we've been given authority by God. 00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:05.440 So therefore, we but it's usually taken to be what we can declare in the name of Jesus gone and it and it should happen, right? 00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:06.399 There's there's that idea. 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:08.000 Name it, claim it theology. 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:10.879 Yeah, and it's it's like prosperity gospel of health. 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:19.440 Like we we get really mad about the prosperity gospel of like declare that your bank account is gonna grow, declare that like and we get mad about that. 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:22.639 I don't see the difference in in people's health. 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:27.600 Like, declare that you're going to be free of all you're still telling God what to do. 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:30.879 And I am not going to tell God what to do about anything. 00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:31.519 Right. 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:42.320 Um, I will ask him for what is on my heart, I will lay it before him and lay it all out, and then I'm going to trust him implicitly with all of it, however, he wants to do it. 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:42.799 Yeah. 00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:45.200 Um I'm just I'm just not in the business of telling you. 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:51.440 Yeah, it's funny, like the the gentleman that I was actually meeting with, um, a friend of mine, and and he he was like awesome. 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:53.120 He wasn't like, hey, I had a lot of problems with what you share. 00:16:53.200 --> 00:17:02.000 Because with the message that we shared on suffering was that I shared a quote by Brother Lawrence, author from the 1600s, and he actually expresses in it the view of the sickness is from God. 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:02.240 Right. 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:05.759 He's like, God has given you this sickness in order to teach you. 00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:11.200 And I was like, man, that's an interesting, that's very far from the any theology of suffering. 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:24.400 I've grown up in a culture, even though I didn't grow up in a more charismatic church, um, definitely grew up in a church where the idea was like, well, God, we live in a broken world, and but God wants to everything to go well for you. 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:25.759 You know, but it's just sometimes it doesn't. 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:26.319 You know what I mean? 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:34.160 That was kind of, and in that, it wasn't, I never even grew up in this context of like, well, maybe God gave you this as a way of refining you, right? 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:39.119 And I wasn't saying that I agree with with Brother Lawrence's view that God is the author of that. 00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:43.599 I was just like present, and I think I said that in the message, I'm presenting it like, hey, this is very different than this. 00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:44.720 Well, let's look at the word. 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:47.759 And what you do find when you look at the word, there's so many conversations about suffering. 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:59.039 Now, to my friend's credit, you know, it's like, well, he was like, no, but yeah, but sickness is different because like it's like his point was like, it's not, it's not that God, you won't get sick. 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:02.400 You know, like this guy's had a lot of sickness in his family in the last year. 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:08.000 It's that it's that when you encounter that, that healing is a promise of God. 00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:08.799 Like that's his view. 00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:08.960 Okay. 00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:11.519 And if it's a promise of God, we gotta, we gotta go for that. 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:17.039 It wasn't so much like the health prosperity that if you are a believer, you'll never get sick. 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:20.480 It's that like when you get sick, that's not from God. 00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:23.759 That's part of, and then you go to God, and you know, it's kind of more in that vein. 00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:25.680 Now, you, what what's your perspective on it? 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:31.680 Well, does does the sickness in that sense is like, is it healed now or later? 00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:33.119 Like we do get new bodies. 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:40.480 We talked about death on Sunday, yeah, where it's like, hey, I don't think I'm gonna I have a cold right now if I died this in this moment. 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:45.119 If I did, if I'm not declaring that over myself as a curse. 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:50.640 We would uh I'm saying I'm so glad you said that because would I have would I have a cold in heaven? 00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:58.720 Obviously not, right so there is healing that is promised that is real and is bodily healing because we are given new bodies. 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:02.799 It just takes a uh a different perspective and a more long-term theology. 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:05.440 So it's like your friend is right, healing is a promise. 00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:07.119 We do experience healing. 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:13.759 The end of our of our sickness is always healing if we believe in Jesus and if we're going to him. 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:19.599 And so But you don't believe, and and just so you know, like when we do these conversations, it's not the His hands. 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:25.759 The point of this is not to declare what the His Hands Church official Right like we're I'm married to you. 00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:29.039 I've known you for a really long time, you're a close friend. 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:31.200 We don't all agree on every little detail. 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:40.319 So we're kind of so but I'm but I sensed in you like I would say that God does allow sickness, even to the point of punishment or test. 00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:40.960 Okay. 00:19:41.519 --> 00:20:04.000 And I to whatever degree that is like a theological, I might be theologically immature on that, but I do see anecdotally in my own personal life and then in the lives of those around me inexplicable things when it comes to what that sickness is producing in that person in terms of fruit. 00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:07.200 Like this was a really good thing for them long term. 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:13.200 Um, and then I've just seen some really dark lives end in sickness. 00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:16.160 And I don't think it was just because of their actions. 00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:20.640 It wasn't like I chain smoked until I got, you know, cancer in the lungs. 00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:27.279 It was like inexplicably this thing happened after this person had been living in sin in pretty much utter darkness. 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:28.640 It's kind of ended in darkness. 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:37.279 So whether that's God allowing or God, you know, I don't want to, there's all the theological terms like removing his hand of protection. 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:39.599 I don't know what that's right, right. 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:46.640 I'm I'm I'm a little mixed up because I grew up on uh a lot of this name it claim it theology charismatic uh stuff. 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:48.960 TV preachers, yeah. 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:50.640 Where and which is always connected to money. 00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:51.039 Yes. 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:51.359 Right. 00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:55.680 Because the there's a uh send in your check and we'll pray for your healing kind of a thing. 00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:58.559 And that and that's and that's what's tough, even from my friend's perspective. 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:07.519 Like um you know, he's very much it was really good because it's a good reminder, like he's basing his his thoughts off scripture. 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:07.920 Right. 00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:11.599 Not like that that's the problem I have with that part of the chosen, right? 00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:14.000 Because anecdotally, it's tough. 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:17.680 Like I know people who have I have a good friend whose wife is paralyzed, right? 00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:19.839 And they're crazy passionate about Jesus. 00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:21.680 They have been to the prayer meetings, right? 00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:25.920 They have prayed with faith, and she's never been healed of that. 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:29.519 And uh she was in a car accident, got paralyzed, right? 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:34.240 So is the stance there that there just wasn't enough faith? 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:37.920 I think they went to places where they were just told, like, she you just don't have enough faith, right? 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:42.400 So anecdotally, you look at that and you go, something doesn't seem right about that. 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:46.079 And that's where I think that that chok like again, chosen. 00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:46.720 I'll go back to this. 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:48.559 No problem, like no major problems with chosen. 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:55.599 I cause the same thing when I read an author, like we're doing a book right now on Wednesday nights, and we were even talking last night at home, like we don't agree with the author on some things in the book. 00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:56.799 Well, he's not God, right? 00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:59.839 He's an author, and we have to have the ability to like eat the meat, spit out the bones. 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:00.960 There's value in that. 00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:02.480 So I think the same is true with the chosen. 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:05.680 I don't need the chosen to be perfect because I already have I have scripture. 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.839 Well, if you don't know how to read, you need the chosen to be perfect. 00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:10.160 If you don't know how to listen, you know there you go. 00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:13.200 But I have to have my Bible has to be in television form. 00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:22.559 If it's not in television form, it has to be dramatically in the But my point is that's kind of an interesting thing because there's been some things in the chosen that Jesus didn't say, but he said something very similar to that. 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:24.319 So it's like artistic license. 00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:34.720 But that's one of those things where I it's like anecdotally, it kind of like let's put words into the mouth of Jesus that give a lot of people comfort because it helps a lot of people. 00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:36.960 Well, it's wrestling with the same concept. 00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:40.480 But Jesus never actually said anything like that. 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:45.119 So you know, you kind of get the point is uh it's tough, right? 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:46.079 There's a there's a tension there. 00:22:46.160 --> 00:23:00.240 So I think that's the thing that we have to be careful about is when we when we have something like in our lives, uh a sickness, uh a disease, a situation, whatever's causing the suffering. 00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:02.640 Because like you said, there's a lot of different things that can cause suffering. 00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:04.400 It's not just just sickness. 00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:07.839 And it's we're praying about it and it's not being relieved. 00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:08.559 Right. 00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:09.119 Okay. 00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:21.039 It's easy to take comfort in the idea that Jesus isn't relieving it, God isn't taking it away because he just wants me to live with it. 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:23.440 Because we see something like the chosen. 00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:25.519 It's kind of like the thorn in the flesh with Paul. 00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:29.440 Or that was we assume, like, oh, well, God just not taking it away. 00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:35.599 And so we take comfort in this idea that God just not taking it away because he's gonna use it for his glory. 00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:38.240 That could be true. 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:39.839 It could also not be true. 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:44.960 It could be a consequence, it could be something we actually need to, I don't know, step up and handle. 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:49.519 Maybe we need to have conflict with a person, maybe we need to change something about our lives. 00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:57.920 Maybe this is something, maybe this is um the result of a bad habit or a bad behavior in my life that God is showing me I need to change. 00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:10.880 And I think um when I was thinking about suffering this morning, I thought all suffering that I have experienced, all the times, I mean, I've led the prayer team, I can't remember how many years, and I've been on the prayer team longer than that. 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:16.160 And I've been in the prayer room every Sunday for years, praying with people that are suffering. 00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:25.440 It has all been resolved to some extent in varied forms by just going into the presence of God. 00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:34.480 So whatever my suffering is, caused by myself, another person, natural, whatever. 00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:46.480 Um if I just would take it into the presence of God and say, This is what is going on, and then let him speak to it, it will resolve. 00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:49.440 Whether it's Megan, you need to change. 00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:51.039 This is your fault. 00:24:51.519 --> 00:25:05.839 Or whether it is, I will give you peace through this, I'm going to walk with you through this, or I'm going to heal this, whatever the resolution is, the presence of God will alleviate the suffering in whatever course it needs to take. 00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:06.079 Yeah. 00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:13.759 But when we try to harbor our suffering or keep our suffering from the presence of God, that's where we get into trouble. 00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:16.000 But the presence of God will resolve it. 00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:17.119 It will. 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:31.519 I think when we try to comfort ourselves with some idea or magic wand it or um take it to a formula of like prosperity, I declare it gone, it doesn't work. 00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:43.279 But the presence of God will solve our suffering in one form or another because God can meet it, solve it, resolve it, resolve me, whatever is the thing. 00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:47.119 And it transforms the suffering and gives us the ability to suffer well. 00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:47.680 Yes. 00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:53.359 The I gave a message a while ago where I said that Jesus provides us safety. 00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:56.240 There's like lots of conversation about that afterwards. 00:25:56.559 --> 00:25:58.480 People having we were wrestling through it. 00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:01.519 Maybe I wasn't clear enough, and that was the major issue. 00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:15.839 But the safety I was talking about wasn't safety from suffering and protection from all suffering, but it's the kind of safety I think Stephen was the um the story that I thought of of Stephen being dragged out in front of the city to be stoned. 00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:27.359 And Stephen is the opposite of safe, but what he's able to do in that moment is like very organized message about the gospel and who Jesus is and what uh where he stands. 00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:38.640 He sees into heaven and sees God, and there's a spiritual safety that comes even in the midst of suffering that is way greater than any physical safety that you could experience. 00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:43.200 And so I wasn't meaning to say that nothing bad's ever going to happen to you when you're with Jesus. 00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:59.519 It's just he provides a spiritual safety that is gonna overcome any natural consequence or suffering, any any spiritual attack, anything that's um going on, even as a consequence of your own actions, you've been forgiven for that. 00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:02.319 So spiritually, there is a safety that he can provide. 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:07.279 And so the suffering just looks a little different and gives you the ability to suffer through it well. 00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:16.079 Well, and it is true that the suffering, whatever kind of suffering it is, you know, Paul wrote, and I shared this verse in that message, we learned to fully rely on God. 00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:28.559 Like there's a there's a kind of it's what Brother Lawrence wrote that he had noticed anecdotally that people who have suffered have very often the result of that is they they draw nearer to the Lord and and it brings them closer. 00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:36.240 Um I mean, even you know, for us in our marriage, the seasons, I mean, I think we've had a really blessed life. 00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:39.279 And so far, we haven't had a tremendous amount of suffering, I would say. 00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:41.119 And I also know that that could change at any moment. 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:46.799 But like when our oldest was born and he was really sick in the hospital, there was some like instant suffering there. 00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:51.599 And it did draw me into a time of prayer with the Lord that was unlike anything else I'd ever been in. 00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:57.200 And so I I guess all that to say that this isn't about tying up all the there's not really a bow to tie on it. 00:27:57.440 --> 00:28:00.559 Um I love what you shared. 00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:02.000 Well, I love what both of you shared. 00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:08.160 It's just like being in the presence of God, being with him is the solution, even ultimately. 00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:08.960 Like what is heaven? 00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:15.519 Like if anyone ever says, Well, I just I don't believe in Jesus and I don't but I still want to think I'm gonna go to heaven, it's like, well, Jesus is heaven. 00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:19.759 Like heaven isn't a cool vacation that you get to go on. 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:23.200 Like it's being in the presence of God all the time. 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:25.200 You know, so that is heaven. 00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:30.640