WEBVTT 00:00:11.039 --> 00:00:13.279 We're gonna start the podcast now. 00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:17.359 Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. 00:00:17.679 --> 00:00:18.239 What do we call this? 00:00:18.320 --> 00:00:18.960 The midweek podcast. 00:00:19.039 --> 00:00:25.679 We call it the midweek podcast, and on our website it says every Wednesday, and I think we've hit every Wednesday only twice in a row. 00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:28.960 Um why we should just have it not. 00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:31.120 It's like sometimes on sometimes on Wednesdays. 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:35.759 Yeah, so it's usually it's it's probably two a month, I would say is the rhythm that they drop, roughly. 00:00:36.079 --> 00:00:36.640 Nice. 00:00:36.799 --> 00:00:37.280 That's fine. 00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:37.920 I feel like we can. 00:00:38.159 --> 00:00:39.039 Do you feel like it should be weekly? 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:40.560 I don't think it should be a weekly. 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:43.600 I think it should be weekly, but you think we should have one every Wednesday? 00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:44.399 I think so. 00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:45.280 Why? 00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:46.079 I don't know. 00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:50.640 Just get in the habit of it, and then I can know when I come into work recording a podcast. 00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:55.280 See, that's the thing I find from you guys is you all have this thing where you're like, I want to know what to do at my job. 00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:58.560 No, I want to know should I go start working on other stuff. 00:00:58.960 --> 00:00:59.439 Excuse me. 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:01.600 My point is that's a reasonable thing to want. 00:01:01.759 --> 00:01:07.120 And I don't think anyone who's ever worked for me has ever had that luxury of like, right? 00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:08.239 There's always that. 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:09.680 Is this is this happening? 00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:11.439 Is this happening or is it gonna happen this week? 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:11.840 I know. 00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:12.640 I'm sorry. 00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:14.079 I forgive you. 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:15.920 I actually wasn't even sorry. 00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:16.319 No. 00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:19.280 So I reject your forgiveness because the apology was. 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:21.439 Then I'm so then I'm still mad about it. 00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:22.400 Well, there we go. 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:24.719 Uh here's what we're gonna talk about today. 00:01:24.959 --> 00:01:28.239 It's a question that's like, are we a big church? 00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:30.000 Or what size church are we? 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:30.799 Or what is that? 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:32.000 Here's here's where it comes from. 00:01:32.159 --> 00:01:41.439 Every newcomer gathering that we have, and a lot of our topics come from newcomer gatherings, or in the case today, I had breakfast with a guy who's new to our church and he had a lot of questions and really good questions. 00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:44.239 And one of the things he said is, I've never been a part of a church this big. 00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:48.560 But then in the same token, he's like, But my wife grew up at this church, which is like way bigger, right? 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:54.959 And we have people every newcomer gathering that are like one couple will say, Yeah, we were at such and such church, and we just want something a little smaller. 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:55.439 Yep. 00:01:55.599 --> 00:02:00.480 And then someone else will be like, Yeah, we were here and we just we needed something bigger that had more going on. 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:00.959 Yeah. 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:04.799 And we find ourselves in this weird, what are we? 00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:09.520 It's like by all statistics and measures, I would say we're a big church. 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:16.400 But I just think geographically we are located betwixt a few very, very large churches. 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:17.520 The land betwixt. 00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:17.919 Yeah. 00:02:18.080 --> 00:02:18.240 Yeah. 00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:24.159 And so it's uh people have an expectation and like an experience with larger churches than us. 00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:24.800 Right. 00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:25.280 Yeah. 00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:31.520 But they don't uh but for most people across the country, I think we would be a very large church. 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:32.319 Yeah. 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:41.680 But it's the reason I I mean, it doesn't numbers aren't what we care about, and you'll just have to trust us on this, but we don't have staff meetings about how to get bigger and how big we can we don't that's not what we think in terms of. 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:44.879 We're always talking about how do we take care of people, how do we do how do we add more. 00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:46.960 We talk about doing things better. 00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:48.319 Doing things better. 00:02:48.719 --> 00:02:55.360 It's not about getting bigger, but we are accommodating the fact that we are growing by like adjusting check-in or something. 00:02:55.759 --> 00:02:56.000 Correct. 00:02:56.080 --> 00:03:00.879 We're adjusting things and we're trying to make sure there's plenty for people to sink their teeth into and grow. 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:03.919 And so as we grow, we have to add more things and whatnot. 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:07.759 Um, but our our aim has never been like let's get bigger. 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:08.000 Yeah. 00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:09.039 That's never been a thing we've got. 00:03:09.199 --> 00:03:14.400 We never put a number on the board and said when we get here, that's when things really take off. 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:15.039 Correct. 00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:15.599 This is our goal. 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:17.120 We're trying to be this size church. 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:26.159 Um, actually, when we first started, that was a thing, like way, way back when um when I first started working here, there were actually stated numeric goals. 00:03:26.319 --> 00:03:26.639 Sure. 00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:30.560 And I felt like a failure because I wasn't hitting those goals. 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:30.800 Right. 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:33.680 And I think our our culture adjusted pretty quickly. 00:03:33.759 --> 00:03:36.560 I think the couple that started our church came from a corporate background where that's what you do. 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:40.319 You set a number goal, you're accountable to it, go get it or figure it out. 00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:45.120 And they I think they were learned early that that's church probably shouldn't be like that thing. 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:46.080 It's not the same thing. 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:48.719 There might be principles that you can apply that are helpful, but nah. 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:49.759 So with that, that ended. 00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:50.560 We don't do that. 00:03:50.719 --> 00:04:00.960 Um, but we are the church, we are the church that we are, we're the size that we are, and we find ourselves in this weird place where my joke is that we're either the smallest big church you've ever been to or the biggest small church you've ever been to. 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:01.599 Right. 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:05.439 And it kind of puts us in some ways, it's funny to say that, and it's like, haha. 00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:18.160 But in other ways, it actually makes it kind of complicated in terms of you might walk in here and there's an expectation because of the size that we are on Sundays and maybe the perceived quality of things. 00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:18.480 Right. 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:25.439 Like, oh, though this church probably has all these programs and a huge staff, and it's like, well, not really. 00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:28.959 We we have a smaller staff for most churches our size. 00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:29.759 Is that true? 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:31.600 I don't know any other churches our size. 00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:33.439 Um, yeah, but not like crazy. 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:35.439 So you've been here for how long now? 00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:36.480 Uh on staff? 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:38.079 Oh, ten years. 00:04:38.319 --> 00:04:38.639 Ten years. 00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:40.000 So you've seen the staff grow. 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:40.639 Right. 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:43.279 We weren't that much smaller. 00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:48.000 We were a little smaller, but we weren't like half the size we were 10 years ago. 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:49.680 And our staff was a lot smaller. 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:50.480 Oh, yeah, right. 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:54.319 So you've been here as the so I would say our staff now is appropriately. 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:58.959 Our staff has grown a ton when our numbers have not like drastically. 00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:00.959 Like our staff has probably doubled, if not that. 00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:01.439 Correct. 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:03.199 Maybe our staff was way too small. 00:05:03.279 --> 00:05:03.680 Yeah, right. 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:04.319 For a long time. 00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:05.920 And that was for a variety of reasons. 00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:10.639 But um, but we're still on the smaller side of of church staffs for a church our size. 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:16.800 Like we don't have uh some some we don't have as much redundancy in roles and things like that. 00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:18.240 Like we don't have an associate pastor. 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:18.959 Great example. 00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:21.120 Like a lot of churches much smaller than us. 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:21.519 Sure. 00:05:21.759 --> 00:05:23.120 Would have an associate pastor. 00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:25.759 Um what are you thinking? 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:29.759 Well, it's just I think they would have that because that person's playing a different role. 00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:30.240 Maybe. 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:33.199 So like we have a ton of like maybe it's not a ton of things. 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:33.600 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:36.639 But either way, we we are a smaller-ish staff. 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:43.519 But point is if you came here on a Sunday and the scope of things, you might assume that there's a there's a lot more. 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:51.279 And in terms of I w I want uh do you have we have people all the time saying, hey, do you have a group specifically for this? 00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:53.759 Do you have a singles group for people in their 30s to 40s? 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:55.759 And we're like, we don't have a group, we're not that specified. 00:05:55.920 --> 00:05:56.079 Right. 00:05:56.480 --> 00:06:10.000 We have a group for men, we have this group group you can come to for women, we have this these, you know, and they're used to it in their mind a church this size should have like a group for every single demographic category you could possibly imagine. 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:11.199 And we want to do that. 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:17.199 Um on the flip side, I met with a guy this morning who was like, man, he wanted to connect and we grabbed breakfast. 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:22.720 And he's like, I didn't think with a church that size that I would ever be able to talk to an availability. 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:24.800 And I'm like super available, you know what I mean? 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:25.519 So I don't know. 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:35.199 We find ourselves in this weird in-between space, and I thought it would be worthwhile to just figure out like what what even are we and what do we care about and what do we prioritize in that? 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:40.800 Yeah, and I think a lot of that has less to do with size and more to do with culture stuff. 00:06:41.040 --> 00:07:00.079 And so, like, even the move from two services to one service instantly made you twice as available because where you would have to be running off to the next service or or whatnot, you're able to hang out and schedule things before church and schedule things after church and actually have accessibility in a different way. 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:06.800 And so I think prioritizing the culture, like I think you being available is something that you've prioritized. 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:07.759 Correct. 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:12.720 Where people can have your number and people can give you a phone call and people can do that. 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:15.120 Uh now there might come a day. 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:18.560 Is there gonna come a day that if we grew to a certain number where that would have to change? 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:19.680 Like just logistically. 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:22.160 I mean, it wouldn't have to, I don't know if it would have to change. 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:25.920 It would just mean that, I mean, I only have the hours in the day wouldn't change. 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:26.240 Sure. 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:29.360 And the number of meals I can have with people throughout the week, for example, wouldn't change. 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:35.519 But if there's twice as many people wanting to meet with me in those times, you know, something like that would have to change, I guess. 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:38.160 So to a certain degree, it is gonna be dependent. 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:39.040 Like there's limits. 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:45.680 So we have a culture that works up to a certain limit, and then if it got to a certain size, I guess you'd have to adjust. 00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:46.160 Right. 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:51.040 Um, but then even as my in my lunch this morning, or my breakfast rather this morning, I have lunch in the mornings now. 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:51.600 It's really cool. 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:53.360 I have breakfast at night, lunch in the mornings. 00:07:53.759 --> 00:08:09.519 Um but in my breakfast this morning, uh, we were just talking about church size dynamics, and I was like, man, I don't know if we'll ever be like that because we don't to a certain point we would have to make decisions that would drastically change our culture to become like that. 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:11.439 And I don't know if that's something we're ever gonna do. 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:11.759 Right. 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:12.560 So I don't know. 00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:19.040 Yeah, uh unless the knock-on effects of growing like made it so, but we don't control the growth. 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:23.839 I guess that's the one of the other primary filters that don't define our core. 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:29.920 You don't control the growth, but you can control how big you're trying to be. 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:30.319 Right. 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:34.399 And I think something that's interesting about his hands is we're not trying to be a certain size. 00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:35.039 Right. 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:39.679 Like there's no we are what we are, we are what we are, and if we grow, we grow. 00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:40.720 And we're happy about it. 00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:42.080 We're like, great, more people, that's awesome. 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:43.039 We've and then we figure it out. 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:46.799 We go, oh, we need people to park at Lowe's, we need to create a new kids' space. 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:53.039 But we're not trying to be a certain size church. 00:08:54.159 --> 00:09:01.120 So our growth is it's not accidental, but it is more organic, and then we kind of handle it, if that makes sense. 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:01.600 Right. 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:03.759 Which we probably means we don't handle it well all the time. 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:18.879 With the caveat of having a facility that can kind of accommodate a very wide range of sizes because we can do a lot of really small things and use the student center, and it feels just as full because we're not using a big empty room. 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:27.360 Uh, but we can also do an event that has a thousand people and it feels just as good in terms of having the facility. 00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:35.279 So I think we've been gifted with a facility that allows us to be a medium church because we've got the flexibility of doing small things and big things. 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:36.960 And it's Yeah, we're weird. 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:37.600 We're just weird. 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:47.200 And that's where every time someone Where a lot of churches that might even be our size, attendance-wise, have to do three service, three services to even fit that in. 00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:50.879 And so if you walked in on a Sunday at one service, it would feel much smaller. 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:51.840 Correct. 00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:54.399 But that you have to add all three of those together. 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:55.039 Yeah, that's interesting. 00:09:55.279 --> 00:10:01.600 Or like have to renting like a pavilion to go do something with your whole church versus having it hosted at your building. 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:02.159 Yeah. 00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:03.440 It adds to a lot of things. 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:04.960 I I I pulled this up. 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:06.879 Um, I shared this with you a while ago. 00:10:06.960 --> 00:10:09.360 This is a Tim Keller, I guess, article. 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:10.240 I don't know what to call it. 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:10.399 Yeah. 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:13.200 Called Leadership and Church Size Dynamics. 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:18.080 And uh it's really good, so I just recommend people read it. 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:18.639 I don't know. 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:19.440 Maybe we can link it. 00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:20.399 Remember you sent it to me. 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:21.279 Link it in the thing. 00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:21.679 Yeah. 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:24.559 Uh he talks about link right here. 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:27.279 I don't think you can put a link on the screen anymore. 00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:28.080 Link. 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:29.039 In the description. 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:29.600 Somewhere. 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:30.399 Yeah. 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:32.159 I've seen that in videos. 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:33.279 Is that still a thing? 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:33.759 I don't know. 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:34.799 I think it used to be. 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:37.360 Well, we'd have to like make a video about I don't know. 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:38.559 I haven't I don't know how it works. 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:39.519 There's a link somewhere. 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:43.919 He says every church has a culture that goes with its size, which must be accepted. 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:54.879 Most people tend to prefer certain size culture, and unfortunately, many give their favorite size culture or moral status and treat other size categories as spiritually and morally inferior. 00:10:55.120 --> 00:11:04.720 They may insist that the only biblical way to do church is to practice a certain size culture, despite the fact that the congregation they attend is much too big or too small to fit that culture. 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:06.080 So let's pause there. 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:10.320 When you read that, what's what are like things that come like what do you imagine? 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:14.879 Imagine like a smaller church being like if you're a bigger church, you're less committed to Correct. 00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:15.120 Okay. 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:22.399 Well, or as the size that we are, we often have people come up and ask us to do things that are impossible for our size culture. 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:26.240 So, like you're saying, like, hey, why don't you have this group or that group or this group? 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:35.759 It's like, well, usually that's part of a bigger staff where there's a staff person that's specialized in executing those things. 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:45.440 Um, or they're like, hey, why haven't we done um you know uh something this way, like lunch after church with everybody? 00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:51.759 It's like, well, we can't really do lunch after church with everybody like you would at a smaller church because it yeah it becomes a chaotic. 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:59.679 I was talking to the guy uh that I was having breakfast with today, and I was saying, hey, you know, he seems excited about the church and it's great. 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:06.960 And I said, just so you know, he's used to a smaller church, and I said, You're gonna have to put more effort in here to get to know people. 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:07.360 Right. 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:13.519 Because at a certain smaller place, there's nothing wrong with it, but he's in his mid-20s. 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:17.200 It's like, well, here's the 10 couples in their mid-20s who go here. 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:17.840 Right. 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:18.960 And that's that. 00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:23.440 And so you Or there's just a default of like, if you're here for a month, you know everybody in a smaller church. 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:26.000 Yeah, it's just that it's it's kind of done for you. 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:31.440 So the church can kind of make friends for you because it's such a it's like if you went to a small school. 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:31.759 Right. 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:33.200 It's like, well, you're in the class. 00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:35.360 Even schools in general kind of make friends for you, right? 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:37.360 When you go to elementary school might be a good example. 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:42.159 An elementary school might be large, but the child doesn't experience the school, they experience their class. 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:42.559 Right. 00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:44.720 And that class kind of makes your friends for you. 00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:52.799 When little kids go to school, their friends are their classmates because someone decided here's who's in this and you're with the same 30 people all the time, right? 00:12:53.200 --> 00:13:04.879 But at a church our size, we're gonna have lots of opportunities, but you may have to put in more initiative, you might have to initiate a little bit more to go, I want to connect with these people. 00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:09.679 Like we might have events that bring you together, but you're still gonna have to go find people. 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:10.240 Yeah. 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:16.879 And and so to to address that, like the not not one of them is wrong or right. 00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:17.120 No. 00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:31.600 And it's not right for us, given the facilities we have and the situation that we came from, like to say, like, oh, well, if you're a church of 150, like you must be doing something X, Y, and Z wrong because of X, Y, and Z. 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:32.720 Well, I've seen it on both ends. 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:44.399 So, you know, famously a couple of years ago, there was a pastor of a really large church that said on a Sunday that if you ever say we're gonna leave here and go to a smaller church, right? 00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:46.879 That means you don't care about the next generation. 00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:52.080 And they literally said, Because what's gonna happen is your kids are gonna go to that, you're gonna force your kids to go to that church. 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:59.600 And the assumption was that that church was gonna be boring and their kids' stuff's gonna be terrible because this church is huge, so it had all kinds of kids' stuff. 00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:12.639 And this pastor said, You basically don't care about the next generation, and then your kids are gonna go to college, and if they end up in a church, it's gonna be because they find a really big church that has a college big enough to have a college ministry. 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:16.559 Basically, if a church isn't big, it isn't good. 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:17.039 Right. 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:23.200 And I knew a lot of friends who are pastors of smaller churches that heard that and it was very it was like hurtful. 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:23.600 Yeah. 00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:44.320 But I've also experienced the flip side of that where it's very easy when you're smaller to look at something bigger and to assume that the way it got bigger was by sacrificing their holding scripture and you're just yeah, you you cater to you tell people what they want to hear, you know, and so there is this dynamic of whatever size you are, it's on purpose. 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:51.440 Yeah, and that's what I that's what I loved about this uh article thing is like it goes through the different like tensions that come with each size. 00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:55.679 Like there's just gonna be advantages and disadvantages for for each size. 00:14:56.000 --> 00:15:09.919 And to um just be aware of like, oh yeah, I remember telling a volunteer a while ago they were wanting to, you know, do something in the the student area that we just weren't gonna do and probably would never do. 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:14.480 And it was kind of hard to say, like, hey, like What was it? 00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:16.240 It was you know funny. 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:17.200 I vaguely remember this. 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:20.159 It's actually what we do now with our middle schoolers. 00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:24.240 So if she had just kind of been patient for a couple more years, you know. 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:24.879 Yeah, I got you. 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:26.320 Um not that we would never do it. 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:33.039 It was just I remember if the way that they were proposing you would do it was just too um heavy, it was too heavy-handed. 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:38.879 It's the formalized uh Sunday school structure of doing small group ministry. 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:39.120 Right. 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:40.480 And so they were wanting to do that. 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:43.039 But they wanted a very specific thing that we didn't offer. 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:43.519 Correct. 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:44.480 And I had to see that. 00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:47.279 And we and we were looking to offer it in the near future. 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:48.960 I was like, that's not on the radar. 00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:55.360 And I remember them sitting across from me and going, like, oh, well, if that's not on the radar, I don't know if this is my church. 00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:57.360 And I was like, that might be true. 00:15:57.519 --> 00:15:57.840 Right. 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:10.159 And not because of any theological difference, not because of any church hurt, not because of anything other than, oh, like what I want from a church can be better provided by a smaller church. 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:14.320 And I don't think that that was wrong to have that conversation. 00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:17.039 Now, I don't want to be encouraging that people leave. 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:20.480 And I say I joke about it's kind of what we do now with our middle schoolers. 00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:27.840 It's not exactly what we do now, but like in different seasons, churches are just capable of doing different things. 00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:28.080 Yeah. 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:29.279 And that that happens. 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:35.679 And so if your church isn't doing something that you want it to do, like be patient with them and and you know, encourage them. 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:43.919 I've got parents that are really positive and they well, and this was a situation where the person was offering to do it, but you didn't have a trust level with the person that they were the right person to do it. 00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:44.320 Right. 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:46.159 So you were like, no, thank you. 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:47.039 Right. 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:57.440 And uh parents come all the time with ideas, and I love hearing the ideas and keep sharing the ideas because those do inform what it's like, oh, the body really wants this. 00:16:57.679 --> 00:16:58.000 Okay. 00:16:58.240 --> 00:16:59.519 Is that something we're gonna do? 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:01.440 Okay, let me you know, tuck that in the back of my mind. 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:10.400 Yeah, we've had lots of conversations like that where someone's had an idea and then we're like, okay, let's start thinking on that, but we don't want to just jerk the wheel and whatever. 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:12.880 So a year or two later it's possible. 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:13.839 Yeah, it happens. 00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:14.079 Yeah. 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:27.440 And so um, but just coming to terms with the fact that sometimes a large church isn't gonna offer you the same personal connection with every pastor or member of staff that you could have at a smaller church. 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:41.279 And likewise, at a smaller church, you're not gonna necessarily be offered the quality of worship that you would be able to find at a large church, but it's more about you know, singing together regardless of what's going on. 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:42.960 So it's just a different like musical quality. 00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:45.359 Yeah, music's not gonna have as many people to pull from as well. 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:55.680 Yeah, there's if you've got a hundred people, if you have kids, there's going to be like one of the things that's funny with kids is like if you're at a really small church when the kids are little, it's like it's great because they know everyone in their class. 00:17:55.759 --> 00:17:58.160 But then all of a sudden they're in middle school and it's like, oh no. 00:17:58.400 --> 00:17:58.880 They know everyone in the house. 00:17:59.119 --> 00:17:59.759 Everyone in their class. 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:12.960 And you know, it's and so I've seen other dynamics too where people will come, they'll come, they'll prefer a smaller church when they're when they don't have kids, and then they'll have kids and their kids are getting to that age where their kids need friends, and they want to go to a bigger church. 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:14.640 But then what happens when your kids graduate? 00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:15.119 Yeah. 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:17.279 And it's like now I want to go to a smaller church again. 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:18.400 It's it's tough. 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:20.480 What do you think about that just in general? 00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:28.400 Like this uh do you think default, like someone should should someone be faithful to one church if they haven't moved? 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:29.200 Like it's tough. 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:31.680 I was so again, I talked about that this morning at this breakfast. 00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:33.920 Yeah, it was like it's informed a lot of this. 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:36.079 But um, I think we're Americans. 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:43.279 And I used to feel a pressure that if we did church right, people would be here for like life. 00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:43.839 Right. 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:46.880 You know, unless we did something way off. 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:54.559 Say something that's really uh theologically incorrect and wrong or some moral failure, you know what I mean? 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:57.759 And then, you know, little things would cause people to leave. 00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:00.000 And sometimes little things were things we did. 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:00.400 Sure. 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:02.480 Or sometimes it would just be, I use the kids' example. 00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:08.400 I knew a lot of people who I I assumed that they were really deeply like church was a major part of their life. 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:11.039 And then their kids graduated high school and they kind of disappeared. 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:14.880 And I realized, oh, raising their kids was the priority. 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:17.920 Was the priority and they felt like church was a really important thing. 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:20.319 And their kids might have been really connected, but they might not have been connected. 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:23.279 But they weren't as connected, but their kids were actually the glue here. 00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:23.920 Okay. 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:25.200 So there's a lot of factors. 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:31.279 But I do think that because I say we're Americans, Americans are pretty we're pretty fickle. 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:35.599 So we don't tend to live in the same place for our whole lives. 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:40.319 We don't tend to work the same jobs for our whole lives, we don't tend to we we tend to make a lot of changes. 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:49.279 And sometimes churches like that, and sometimes people just change church in different seasons of life because they just get tired of a place and they're like, let's find another place. 00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:54.880 I think a lot of times people are this is a different conversation, but are a little bit too concerned with something feeling new and fresh. 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:59.599 Um, I have found that the more you plug into a church, the less that tends to happen. 00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:00.000 Sure. 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:06.880 Like if church is just something you come to to observe and watch and attend, you know, eventually you just heard I've heard that story before. 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:09.680 You've like you repeat your stories. 00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:10.240 Of course. 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:11.759 I try not to too often. 00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:14.240 I actually will do a search and say, when's the last time I told that story? 00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:15.359 Because I have everything in Google Docs. 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:16.000 Yeah, that's smart. 00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:18.480 And so I can be like, oh, it's been a while. 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:18.880 Okay. 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:21.759 But like I told a story about my dog Roxy from back in the day. 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:22.960 I've told that story before. 00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:24.079 I've heard that story, yeah. 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:24.960 But it'd been a long time. 00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:25.200 Yeah. 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:26.319 Like three or four years. 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:29.279 Um but Alex is leaving. 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:31.200 Alex has to go, bye, Alex. 00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:31.599 Bye. 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:32.079 Is it okay? 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:32.960 Is it an emergency? 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:33.279 No. 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:34.400 Did we offend you? 00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:35.039 Yes. 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:38.799 Are you when you say you have to leave, wait, do you mean you're leaving the room or the church? 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:41.440 He just said he has to leave. 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:42.400 It was an open-ended. 00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:45.119 I love Alex just said that out loud. 00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:45.440 Yeah. 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:46.480 He didn't just leave. 00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:49.359 Well, I guess he would have been on camera no matter what. 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:50.160 Oh, okay. 00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:51.359 He's got to walk across. 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:52.400 Whatever. 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:55.359 Um that was Alex, and now he's gone. 00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:57.039 We don't know where or why. 00:20:57.279 --> 00:20:58.079 He just had to leave. 00:20:58.240 --> 00:20:59.119 He just had to leave. 00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:01.279 Oh, Lord be with Alex. 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:10.319 Um but so I think size dynamics play into that because in certain seasons of life you might prefer a certain size church. 00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:15.279 And I do think when people have kids, they want bigger because they want more things for their kids to do. 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:17.279 But I don't know, I don't like that either too. 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:23.440 It's like it's hard to say, like, oh, at a certain point in your life, we know our church won't be for you. 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:24.799 That's like a hard thing to like embrace. 00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:25.519 That's true, right? 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:27.279 We have lots of people here who are tired and lots of people. 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:36.079 I think what it is is maybe I would challenge someone, honestly, as a pastor, and say, uh, don't let your preferences be what dictates the church you go to. 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:45.440 But at the same time, it's totally reasonable in a culture where there's so many churches around, right, to be like, I kind of feel like in this season of life we need a church that's more like this. 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:46.240 And I guess that's okay. 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:47.359 Can I read some of these things? 00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:48.319 I would love to tell me. 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:49.039 Read it. 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:50.079 House church? 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:50.799 House church. 00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:53.599 Up to 40 people in a house church. 00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:55.200 39 people in a house church? 00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:57.279