WEBVTT 00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:06.559 How ready? 00:00:06.639 --> 00:00:07.759 Like I can start right now. 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:08.400 Okay. 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:16.719 What kind of pose do you think is the best for like which is my okay. 00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:21.039 Like this? 00:00:21.280 --> 00:00:22.480 Does this feel natural? 00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:24.000 What do I do with my hands? 00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:25.359 I don't know what to do with my hands. 00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:29.679 Bon Jovi usually grabs the mic in like a kind of thing. 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:36.479 And let's get started. 00:00:36.799 --> 00:00:40.799 Justin, how do we uh how does someone become a member at his hands? 00:00:41.119 --> 00:00:42.399 Well I'm glad you asked that, Madison. 00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:46.719 Uh the the answer to that question is that there is no way to do that. 00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:47.679 You can't be a member. 00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:50.560 There's no uh dotted line to sign. 00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:51.840 There's no dotted line to sign. 00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:56.719 You cannot become a member, move on, uh, do not pass go, collect$200, whatever the monopoly for. 00:00:57.039 --> 00:01:00.640 Which I've heard that there's books that have your picture in them if you're a member at some churches. 00:01:01.039 --> 00:01:02.640 Okay, so I've never been in a church as a channel. 00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:06.959 I was gonna ask, you've never so growing up, I know this isn't the only church you went to, but you started coming here pretty young. 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:08.400 Yeah, I was in fifth grade when I came here. 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:11.120 So I went to probably two or three churches before that. 00:01:11.359 --> 00:01:15.439 Yeah, so I grew up um not going to church at all until I was in like fourth grade. 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:19.519 About the time you started coming here, it would have been when I started going to church, period, as a kid. 00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:25.519 And we went to a a Southern Baptist church in in southern Missouri, and Southern Baptist churches definitely have membership. 00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:28.799 Membership, and then do they keep track of like your attendance and stuff? 00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:29.920 So I don't I don't know. 00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:38.719 Um so the way it was for me growing up, like I say small, uh maybe I didn't say small, but it was a smaller church than than his hands, but not crazy small. 00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:50.239 And so what I remember is um we went to church on Sunday nights too, and Sunday mornings there was always an invitation for someone to come forward and get saved, and they would always play the same hymn, um just as I am. 00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:51.120 Like this play. 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:55.439 Usually no one did, but we just you sit there and is anyone gonna come? 00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:55.680 Yeah. 00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:56.319 All right. 00:01:56.480 --> 00:02:08.560 Um and then on Sunday nights, there would be time if someone came forward on Sunday nights, not like in an invitation way, but if they sort of presented someone to the congregation, uh it was because they were they were becoming members. 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:09.280 Okay, gotcha. 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:15.039 And so I remember some of the language as a kid, it was like uh they've moved their letter of membership. 00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:16.159 That was a phrase. 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:22.319 Uh they have this couple is moving their letter of membership from such and such church to here. 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:25.439 Sometimes they had moved across town or you know, who knows. 00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:33.199 Um and we became members, and I remember when we became members, I was probably in like fifth grade, everyone came and shook our hands. 00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:33.599 Nice. 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:36.159 Like it was like a line to shake our hands. 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:38.479 And then there was a directory, what you're talking about. 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:48.080 So every uh every couple of years they would have a photographer and you would all come and you're dressed nice and you'd have a family photo, and then there would be this printed out church directory. 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:50.879 Was there a description of you, or is it just your picture and your name? 00:02:51.199 --> 00:02:59.840 It was our it was like, yeah, it was the family name, you know, the it was Mike and Rhonda McTear and the kids listed, and then like our address and phone number. 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:00.879 That's cool. 00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:04.400 Like you could so if you're like, hey, where what's that guy from church? 00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:05.039 What's his name? 00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:06.080 You could go to the front desk. 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:07.120 You could open up the book. 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:10.560 You all you could um I'm pretty sure you got a copy of the directory. 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:11.120 Oh wow. 00:03:11.360 --> 00:03:12.719 I mean, this was that's awesome. 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:13.919 This was the late 90s. 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:15.520 Technology was really bumping. 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:21.840 It was a phone with pictures, and uh like you probably had to pay to be in it or something like that, like to pay for it. 00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:23.439 I don't know, because it'd be pretty expensive to print out. 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:24.960 Yeah, like if you buy it, you could buy it. 00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:26.479 You could buy what it was. 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:26.960 Yeah, yeah. 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:27.840 It wasn't like a scam. 00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:30.080 But uh yeah, so membership was sort of a big deal. 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:31.360 You became a member. 00:03:31.599 --> 00:03:35.599 Um I don't think they kept track of maybe they kept track of attendance. 00:03:35.919 --> 00:03:36.080 Sure. 00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:42.240 But what it means what it did mean was that the church's membership number and the church's attendance number were very different. 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:46.000 So you could say, oh, we're a church of eight hundred members. 00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:46.479 Right. 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:52.879 And what that means is you have eight hundred people that at some point have become members, but maybe four hundred of those people are like haven't seen them in years. 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:53.599 Okay, gotcha. 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:54.800 But it didn't, you know what I'm saying? 00:03:55.120 --> 00:04:04.319 It could also be the other way, where you if you are experiencing growth as a church, you have double attendance and half membership because they might have not been involved. 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:05.280 It could be. 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:08.800 I I don't think that's typically the way that it went. 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:11.759 Um it's like a forever number that just gets bigger and bigger and bigger. 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:12.000 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:12.879 How many members do you have? 00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:15.360 And so and his hands has never had membership. 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:18.160 So what is the what's the rationale there? 00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:23.199 Maybe it's like what's the pluses and minuses of membership might get us into the rationale on why we don't have membership. 00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:23.439 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:23.680 Sure. 00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:25.040 So I'll say this on the front end. 00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:32.000 Um a couple years ago, uh maybe five or six years ago, I actually thought really hard about adding membership to his hands. 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:39.519 Like I had a serious uh I mean like multi-month-long mental debate. 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:40.959 And then I actually brought other people into it. 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:46.959 I think I discussed some of it with you, because if I remember right, there's a podcast called To Be the Church that we've listened to, and you sent me an episode of theirs. 00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:48.160 About their membership. 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:48.959 About their membership. 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:50.639 And I I think I remember that specifically. 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:55.199 But point is, I was thinking about that a lot because there are a lot of pluses to membership. 00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:57.439 I grew up in church culture with membership. 00:04:57.600 --> 00:04:59.600 Um and it's something we've never had here. 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:03.199 And I was thinking at the time, like, man, this could be something that And what were some of those pluses? 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:12.240 Yeah, so the pluses are you have you have a bit of a um you can have a different conversation with someone who's a member than someone who just comes. 00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:12.800 Right? 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:14.319 There's a different level of commitment. 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:21.360 And so if if you don't have membership, you actually don't have people making uh official commitments to your church. 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:22.399 Right. 00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:32.480 And there is a reality that a we say this sometimes um on staff, you know, we're the people who go here are not our customers. 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:38.319 Um now we love everyone, we want to serve everyone, we want to meet people's needs, and we want to do everything with excellence and make it great. 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:48.399 We're always working hard and on how to make check-in faster or how to, you know, you'll talk to me sometimes, hey, the line for checkout uh in the youth area has gotten a little out of out of hand. 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:55.839 If we change where we put things and if the treehouse kids check in over there, it'll, you know, those are customer service type things. 00:05:55.920 --> 00:06:03.040 We're trying to make the experience better, but at the core, the people who are part of our church are not our customers. 00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:06.319 It's not a group of people that we're just trying to keep happy. 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:19.519 A church is a group of people who have come together under the banner of Jesus and should be working together to accomplish whatever that church is is given to do, right? 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:21.519 Whatever God has called that church to do and to do it well. 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:24.319 And so um membership is more about commitment. 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:30.000 And if you have people who are members, you can say, hey, if you're a member, this is sort of what we need you guys to do, we need you guys to step up. 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:30.959 We need you guys to help with this. 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:35.600 Now, if you're not a member, um yeah, then you know So it provides a platform for like accountability. 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:37.360 It's accountability, absolutely. 00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:45.600 And some churches, um I I know churches uh even locally, I'm friends with guys on staff and and pastors who uh very big into membership. 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:53.199 And and to the point, I know a church that if you wanted to become a member, first you have to interview with like multiple elders of the church. 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:58.639 But and it's like a we'll see and if you go through all those steps, then you become a member. 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:06.720 And I think part of that, so there's like the accountability thing, and there's probably realities of giving, realities of attendance, just things that it's serving, it's serving. 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:07.199 100%. 00:07:07.439 --> 00:07:11.040 So a lot of churches will say, well, if you're a member, we expect you to give where you would serve. 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:14.800 Ask that to a non-member in the same way that you ask it to a member. 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:21.199 But then I I think too, it's like we might be on the outside looking in and be like, that's a very intense process, interviews, et cetera. 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:23.680 And I don't know all of the details of what that looks like. 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:26.800 But it also is probably a really easy platform for community. 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:39.759 Like you said your whole church lined up and shook your hand, which as a kid might be really weird, but you also get a sense of like, okay, now everyone knows Mike and Rhonda and Justin and all the siblings, and it's like they get to know that. 00:07:39.839 --> 00:07:41.439 So I guess there is that love. 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:42.319 There's positives. 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:44.079 No, absolutely there are positives to it. 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:46.399 A lot of churches that I really love and respect. 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:49.920 Um non-denominational churches do membership. 00:07:50.399 --> 00:08:05.040 And so there are a ton of positives, and that's why a few years ago I was like, man, what had happened to specifically was um, and this is normal, like it's normal at any church with or without membership, where there have just been some people who had been here for a long time and then they they they left. 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:08.879 And uh it wasn't like some giant scandal, they just you know they left. 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:25.279 And I remember thinking, like, man, it's so crazy how you could be here for a decade and be like a involved person, and then you leave and you're not it's like, well, it never said Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm just I've never made a commitment, you know what I mean? 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:30.000 But in my head, I probably saw this person specifically as like a committed person. 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:30.800 I guess they were. 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:35.840 It just it got me wrestling with things, and you know, I'm the second guy to lead the church, not the first. 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:42.559 And so part of my job in in this position, being the second person, I'm not the one God called to start the church. 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:50.960 So I have to constantly weigh and discern and pray and think through what needs to stay the same and what needs to change. 00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:56.879 There are things that our founding, you know, pastors started that I need to preserve at all costs. 00:08:57.039 --> 00:08:58.399 And I have to figure out what those things are. 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:00.720 And these are the things where we say this can never change. 00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:06.960 And then there's other things that I have to go, you know, that was for a time and a season, and but I don't think it was the right thing forever. 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:09.679 Um, we've or that didn't go well, and we need to make adjustments. 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:13.919 And so I have to kind of always what needs to stay the same, what needs to change. 00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:20.960 And sometimes there's things that I probably would have done differently had I been the person that God called to start it, but I'm not. 00:09:21.679 --> 00:09:33.919 And specifically on that note, like a filter I have is if it would change the culture of the church, okay, um, like seriously change our church's culture. 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:37.919 If I'm gonna make a change that would do that, I better be really clear. 00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:40.559 Like I better have really heard from the Lord on that. 00:09:40.799 --> 00:09:50.559 Because there's changes we can make that are just logistical, there's changes that we can make or style, but man, something that would fundamentally change the culture of our church, I need to be really certain about that. 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:52.879 And so I never got to that point with with membership. 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:54.799 I felt like it would change the culture of our church. 00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:55.120 Yeah. 00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:56.639 I've never had membership before. 00:09:56.879 --> 00:09:59.360 Adding that wouldn't and I just didn't have that. 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:02.639 I had these are the positives, these are the negatives. 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:06.960 At the time, I probably liked the positives because it felt it felt certain, right? 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:07.200 Yeah. 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:07.679 Membership. 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:09.440 Okay, now members do this, yeah. 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:10.000 Correct. 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:12.000 But it just it was like, nah, that's not that's not for us. 00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:13.600 So what were the negatives? 00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:22.080 Negatives might even be too strong of a of a word that would change the culture drastically enough for you to say, no, it's not worth it. 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:27.600 So almost all churches that start, right? 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:34.000 Like if you're not not like a church that's been around for hundreds of years, but even when that church started, there's almost always a reactionary element to that. 00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:44.080 And so um, you know, for example, when we first started, 2005, one of the things that's never happened here in the history of our church is we've never passed a plate. 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:51.759 Now, I think passing plates for giving is probably not that common anymore because digital is almost everyone's giving with everyone's texting. 00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:53.679 Texting to give or giving whatever. 00:10:53.840 --> 00:11:00.240 Um, but I there's probably still a lot of churches that there's a moment in the service that is set aside for bringing an offering. 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:01.360 And that's how it was for me growing up. 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:02.879 There's a passing of the plate. 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:18.799 Um our our founding pastors were really convicted that church money stuff was just kind of out of control in America and that people just felt constantly like, you're gonna go to church, they're gonna ask me to give money, they're gonna pressure me, whatever. 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:21.440 And so they're they were like, we're never gonna do that. 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:26.000 Um there were a lot of things like that in our culture that were just very opt-in. 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:32.480 That was something that um it's that Stephen Susan used to say all the time, we're an opt-in church, and membership is opt-in, it's not a force thing. 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:38.879 But they were just hyper-focused on removing anything that felt like pressure. 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:45.840 Aaron Ross Powell Well, pressure, and then there's an exclusivity of like you come to a church and you're not really part of it. 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:47.679 I think that's a feeling that they're sensitive to. 00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:47.919 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:49.440 Yeah, they were sensitive to that feeling for sure. 00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:51.679 And also there was just sort of an overall officialness. 00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:52.159 Right. 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:57.120 Like it's an official thing, and that's kind of our nature in religion is to make everything official. 00:11:57.279 --> 00:11:59.360 But they were high-this is the most important thing. 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:01.279 They were really focused on Jesus. 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:05.039 And I think they looked at Jesus and his ministry, and it just didn't seem that official. 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:09.519 Like his ministry didn't seem to be a, you know, all right, now. 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:11.840 Sign on the dotted line. 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:12.720 Here's the picture moment. 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:17.519 And you're definitely like splitting hairs here because to follow Jesus was a serious commitment in and of itself. 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:18.480 People would have known. 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:21.840 People would have known you're risking like you're gonna be excommunicated from your religion. 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:24.559 Your family's gonna kick you out, you're gonna get persecuted. 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:34.240 So it wasn't like it wasn't a flippant decision, but there was just something they saw about Jesus that was very like, hey, I like you. 00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:35.360 You want to be part of this? 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:36.399 Great, you're part of it. 00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:41.519 Not say yes or no, it's first take first go through this class and and then what whatnot. 00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:54.159 And so um that sort of that part of our culture, the not having that official thing, um, it just felt very organic and it felt very much like the way that Jesus' ministry sort of worked. 00:12:54.639 --> 00:13:04.799 And so um, you know, sim similar to baptisms, I know I'm kind of rambling on a bunch of different things, but that Jesus filter, well, when people get baptized here and they always they don't have to be baptized by one of the pastors. 00:13:04.960 --> 00:13:08.399 And so I if someone asked me to baptize them, I say yes. 00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:10.080 Um, if that would be meaningful to them. 00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:19.120 But our encouragement is always to have someone you know who is a someone who is a believer who has already been baptized, parent, friend, baptize you. 00:13:19.279 --> 00:13:20.799 And that's because they looked at Jesus. 00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:24.480 That filter came in when they started, because Jesus didn't baptize people, his disciples did. 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:25.360 It actually said that. 00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:29.840 You know, and so they said, Well, okay, Jesus let his disciples baptize. 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:32.559 We should let people be baptized by other disciples. 00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:34.000 It doesn't have to be the pastor. 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:35.200 So that was always the main filter. 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:36.559 It's like, how did Jesus do it? 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:37.600 Let's just do that. 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:55.440 And because they were so sensitive to religion in the negative sense, not the positive sense, they were like crazy on guard against anything that would sort of tip the scales in a more religious way. 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:55.840 Yeah. 00:13:56.159 --> 00:14:00.720 Religion in terms of like man-made processes and control and pressure. 00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:05.600 And so if that man, passing a plate, right, that's feels like that's religion. 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:07.759 Membership fell in that category. 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:08.799 You know what I mean? 00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:12.399 Um, having titles, like, I'm not Pastor Justin, I'm Justin. 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:13.519 Pastor is my role, right? 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:14.320 It's not my title. 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:19.679 That just that kind of stuff was all about keeping it simple, keeping it organic. 00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:20.000 Yeah. 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:28.480 And you know, yeah, and there's only the only thing that I can think of in scripture that it has that official sense is when they're replacing Judas as one of the apostles. 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:28.799 Right. 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:29.840 And they got slots for it. 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:30.320 Yeah, yeah. 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:32.879 Where it's like, well, we have 11 now, we needed 12. 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:33.200 Right. 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:34.240 Because Jesus picked 12. 00:14:34.480 --> 00:14:37.039 Jesus picked 12, so we need 12 to make it make it happen. 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:37.440 Yeah. 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:46.080 And so, but in the church of like after that, there's not like this official, you know, like membership. 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:48.320 There that there doesn't seem to be a process in place. 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:55.519 No, it was definitely probably more felt than I mean, there's exp like Paul talks about how someone in the church was like way out of line. 00:14:55.679 --> 00:14:55.759 Right. 00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:58.559 So, hey, you guys need to like Yeah, and there's kind of distance yourself. 00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:01.759 People that are known, you know, it's you're known a real community there. 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:03.039 And and community is the right word. 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:14.720 Lord's Supper, you know, for them was like a meal that they shared together, and that was something like like being a Jesus follower in Corinth would have been your everyday life and circle would be with the other Jesus followers, right? 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:19.200 Um so yeah, so it just felt, you know, it was like very official to add that. 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:30.960 There are positives because you do have the ability to have a greater degree of accountability, but I think what's been so cool for me is I can say this, and again, um lots of churches do memberships not wrong. 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:49.759 When I was really thinking through adding membership, um, it was definitely in a season where I was dealing with some frustrations that I had dealt with, you know, being a pastor for five or six years at the time and having situations where people have maybe in my mind had like, oh, they kind of let us down or whatever. 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:53.519 It was sort of a, well, this would be a way to have more control. 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:54.000 Right. 00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:54.399 Right? 00:15:54.559 --> 00:16:01.440 Like, and hopefully I have good filters where I, you know, sometimes my mind goes down that goes down that path and I can catch it. 00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:04.159 Control and fear are always connected. 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:08.480 Like we only try to control the things that we're we're afraid of of happening. 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:20.159 And um, if control or having more control is the is any is any part like a driving factor in a decision you're making, especially in a church setting, it's it's probably bad. 00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:20.559 Right. 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:23.519 Because the opposite of control and fear would be like trust and faith. 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:29.519 Yeah, that's why you were able to say, oh, that person was committed for 10 years, why are they able to get get up and go? 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:31.120 Well, it's like, well, they're free. 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:31.600 Correct. 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:32.480 They're free, correct. 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:33.200 They're free to. 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:33.840 100%. 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:36.000 And so even like Sunday is a good example of this. 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:38.799 James, uh, who was part of our worship team for a long time. 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:42.720 Um, you know, James, like he's going to a different church now. 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:48.639 And it's not because he has some type of giant frustration with us or we had a fight or anything at all. 00:16:48.799 --> 00:17:00.159 I mean, he and his family live uh in Kennesaw, which is I mean, you live in Kennesaw, but there's not a ton of I mean, there's people from Kennesaw who are here, but there's there's all I know there are, I know there are. 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:05.920 We we think we we think we live really far away from each other because this is the middle point. 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:06.960 I know, I know that. 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:18.799 But my point is just like there's people where I live, right 35 minutes away from here, that go to his hands, there's people at my kids' school that do, but it's not the main church that the people in that area go to. 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:20.160 The same is probably true in Kennesaw. 00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:20.319 Yeah. 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:24.000 Like there's people from Kennesaw, but it's not, there's really good churches in Kennesaw. 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:27.599 And James and and his wife live really close to a church in Kennesaw. 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:32.000 They have some friends that go there that are connected to their family, and so it just kind of like made sense. 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:35.839 And the point is, like, there'd be one way for me to go, James. 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:37.039 No, you signed this document. 00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:39.440 You remember it's still until I release you. 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:40.240 Until I release it. 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:41.359 Well, it's just that's not how it works. 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:41.920 Anyway, you go. 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:48.559 But the flip side of that is to go, wow, James, and this is the conversation we had when we had a lunch and he talked about, I think he was nervous, like, I don't know. 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:49.599 I and I meant this. 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:54.400 I was like, man, thank you for all of your years here, and you've made this place better. 00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:54.880 Thank you. 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:58.240 And I'm actually really excited for I'm sure that church needs you. 00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:00.400 I'm sure you're going to make that church better. 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:07.359 And we have a great relationship with James, and so we had this album release, and he's part of the album that our worship team was part of, and so he came and and sang. 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:08.480 And you're singing on Sunday, yeah. 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:09.440 Yeah, singing on Sunday here. 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:14.480 And it wasn't some big deal of like, well, hold on, James, you know, he's he was, he's no longer. 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:24.880 No, it's like when because we don't have membership, and that's probably the only thing, but it helps reinforce that we're all we're all the kingdom, we're all the family of of God. 00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:26.640 And so, you know, if you attend here, great. 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:27.680 If not, that's okay. 00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:30.160 And if if you go attend somewhere else for a while and you come back, yeah. 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:35.519 I've got lots of students that come here on Sundays, go to a different youth group on Wednesdays, and it's fine. 00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:41.039 The interesting sort of uh caveat to that is that and I've seen this be a really cool thing. 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:44.799 Um as a church, it's not just that it's not just people make a commitment to a church. 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:48.000 Uh a lot of times that's what you think about, but churches make commitments to people. 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:50.160 And you see this because you're involved in the ministry. 00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:56.079 I mean, how many times has someone reached out in a crisis situation and they need help? 00:18:56.319 --> 00:18:56.640 Right. 00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:00.400 And we we our answer is always it's always yes. 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:05.519 Like now it doesn't always that yes sometimes means financial help in in major ways. 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:10.079 Sometimes that help that help can mean we come alongside and help someone with counseling. 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:17.200 Um You and I have done a lot of funerals or been involved in a lot of situations like that, where maybe it's even someone who hasn't been here in five years. 00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:17.680 Right. 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:20.319 But then they But there's we're still their church. 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:27.680 In their mind, yeah, someone in their family passes away and they reach out to us and we don't go, well, hey, sorry, you're you were crossed off the membership. 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:28.480 You're not a member. 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:33.759 Um and so the interesting thing about the church dynamic is that we make a huge commitment to our people. 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:36.400 Our our heart is always that we're here for you. 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:45.759 I think a church should be like a safety net around your family practically, so that when when you fall, when those things happen in life, that church is there to sort of catch you and pick you up. 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:46.559 And we do that all the time. 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:50.480 And it's not based on whether or not you're a member, or you're giving, or you're a church. 00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:51.759 No, we don't look at any of that. 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:57.039 We say literally, if this is if you consider this your church, if in your heart you're like, that's my church. 00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:59.039 Um, I mean, we're here for you, whatever. 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:05.839 I mean, even if you weren't, like, we don't go, well but the point is if you're like, no, his hands is my church, cool. 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:07.519 Like, what can we do for you? 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:08.799 How can we help you? 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:15.680 Um and it's been actually interesting to reconnect with people sometimes after a period of years where Yeah, 10 years later. 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:16.960 Yeah, I've had that happen. 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:17.200 Yeah. 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:24.720 And um you know, if students in the youth group, um, there was one guy, for example, that was one of my students way back in the day, a little older than you, his name was Josh. 00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:30.880 And I was really close to Josh for a while, but then he went off to college somewhere else, kind of just fell off the radar and and and all that. 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:35.200 And then his one of his parents passed away and he called me and he's like, Can you come to the funeral? 00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:44.240 And I hadn't seen him for a long time, but for whatever reason, like in that moment, I was the person that he thought of. 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:46.400 And then another one his other parent passed away like six months later. 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:51.599 So I did both of their funerals in a six-month period of time after having not seen him. 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:54.400 And so I I guess I'm probably getting off the membership idea. 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:57.599 The point is Well, you're saying community can happen without membership. 00:20:58.160 --> 00:20:58.640 And commitment. 00:20:58.720 --> 00:20:58.799 Yeah. 00:20:58.960 --> 00:20:59.119 Yeah. 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:02.799 Community and commitment can happen without the official channels. 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:04.559 And that's just sort of the way things. 00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:06.079 Yeah, and so it worked. 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:11.119 When someone is new to his hands, what does it look like to be what does it look like? 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:14.160 Obviously, there's like a oh, I've decided this is my church. 00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:17.920 Some people come here one Sunday and they go, like, I've decided this is my church. 00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:20.960 Some people try it out for six months or are figuring it out. 00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:29.680 But if they have said, like, this is my church, uh, in other churches where membership is a thing, that next step is sign the thing. 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:31.200 You sign the thing and you make a commitment. 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:36.480 I mean, I think for us, like what does it look like is the next step when you've made that decision. 00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:46.079 For all intents in terms of practicality, the idea of membership would be that you're a participating in the church. 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:46.640 Right? 00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:48.480 You're no longer just an observer. 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:57.599 I know that they're here a lot and they bring light to the people around them and they're encouragers, and it's like, yeah, you're participating in the church. 00:21:58.000 --> 00:21:59.759 And like what you said too, receiving. 00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:07.039 From the church, because I think what a lot of people need when they're in church is healing and time and whatever that looks like. 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:14.880 And so if a church is equal parts, you know, uh hospital as well, you'd say, like, who's part of this hospital? 00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:20.319 It's like, well, the doctors are part of the hospital, but the patients are also welcoming the administrative desk. 00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:20.880 Yeah, right. 00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:21.200 All of it. 00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:22.160 The cleaning up, all that. 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:29.039 And so there's a range of being a member at his hands where it's like, oh yeah, I'm here for this season to heal. 00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:32.160 And like, I can't serve, I can't afford to give. 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:33.680 It's not the season right now, whatever. 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:35.599 It's like, well, you're still part of our church. 00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:36.319 Correct. 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:37.119 Correct. 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:45.119 And I what I have found is probably most helpful for me is that it is human nature to draw lines. 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:55.759 In fact, I think there was a message uh you may have sent it to me, but Tim Mackey from the Bible Project was talking about how religion draws lines. 00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:59.680 And so like the Pharisees saw everyone, you're either clean or unclean. 00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:00.640 Clean or unclean, right? 00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:06.640 And Jesus, it was more about trajectory, like you're moving toward him or you move away from him. 00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:09.039 And so uh he just had different ways, you know. 00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:11.599 He was kind of trying to draw who's in and who's out with Jesus, right? 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:21.839 And it's not as clean of the physics like, well, this in Jesus, it was like this weird sort of amoeba shape, because it was really more about the status of your heart, and that's how we are at his hands. 00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:25.440 Like it's we don't really think in terms of who's in, who's out. 00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:30.160 That's not we're not having meetings like, all right, move this person to the out list. 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:31.440 They're in now, they're in again. 00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:32.240 We don't do that. 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:40.559 But there's sort of just this felt like you look at someone and you don't go, oh, you're in, but you kind of look at them and go, we're in this together. 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:48.799 Like I know that you're someone who we're we're we're moving in the same direction toward Jesus, but also united by the vision specifically of what his hands have taught us. 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:52.480 And this community is like, I'm growing spiritually here, you're growing spiritually here. 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:57.599 Um, you know, there was a guy who got baptized uh on Sunday, uh, we had a man baptize his son. 00:23:57.680 --> 00:23:59.359 Uh his son's name is Judah. 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:05.039 And uh and that son, his son Judah is my son Judah's really close friend in church. 00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:08.319 And so they're like, they get along really well at church. 00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:10.400 They're always trading Pokemon cards and stuff like that. 00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:12.240 Not so much anymore, but like a year ago. 00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:12.559 Sure. 00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:18.799 A year ago, my Judah would like freak out if he forgot his Pokemon card book on the way to church because he's like, Me and Judah, we're gonna trade cards. 00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:25.599 And you know, Matt and I, we've never really had some type of big official are you in meeting. 00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:28.240 But we just we see each other all the time on Sundays. 00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:29.599 Our kids are both growing here. 00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:35.039 Um, I had a meeting with Matt last week, and I there was this thing we're gonna do next year that I was thinking Matt would be a really good person to help with that. 00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:36.480 And he's like, Yeah, let's do it. 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:40.880 And it's my I haven't found that not having membership gets in the way of that. 00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:41.039 Right. 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:41.680 You know what I mean? 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:46.079 It's just very much a community thing, community commitment without the official channels. 00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:47.920 Um, that's how it works here. 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:48.400 Cool. 00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:57.200 So I would say, you know, in closing, and for the purposes of a promo, um sometimes I use this part. 00:24:57.279 --> 00:24:58.559 Uh but not having membership. 00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:02.319 What I'm about to say is gonna blow your mind as what Justin just said. 00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:03.920 No, it's gonna be so good. 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:05.440 It's gotta be the first thing in the video. 00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:11.920 So the way, no, like okay, so we always take like a snippet from this and we'll play it on a Sunday morning as like a teaser, like, hey, we're releasing this on Wikipedia. 00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:13.039 But you knew it was coming. 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:23.119 Well, and I feel bad for Zach sometimes because like we have a 45-minute conversation or 30 minutes or whatever, and he's gotta go through that and find the the snippets that will, you know, that's a lot of work. 00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:26.240 Or I could just be like, let me kind of sum it up and use this part. 00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:28.799 But one time I did that and Zach didn't use that part at all. 00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:30.960