WEBVTT 00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:18.960 Hey everybody, welcome back to a kind of an occasional podcast that happens every now and then when something doesn't make it into the Sunday message. 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:20.640 We call it the cutting room floor. 00:00:20.800 --> 00:00:21.839 The cutting room floor. 00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:22.160 Yeah. 00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:28.079 I actually uh was proud of myself on Sunday because I kept the message in a really good time slot. 00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:29.359 Excuse me, something in my throat. 00:00:29.440 --> 00:00:30.320 But anyway, I kept the message. 00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:32.399 I'm not getting choked up like emotional thinking about it. 00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:34.560 I kept it in such a good time slot. 00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:35.840 It could have been long, but it wasn't. 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:40.479 Um no, it was um no, there's just those moments where you're like, oh, do I want to go into that? 00:00:40.719 --> 00:00:40.880 Right. 00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:43.679 It's relevant, but it's a little bit off the beaten path. 00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:46.399 And maybe it's better just to focus on it on a separate podcast. 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:46.640 Yes. 00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:47.679 Instead, we'd do that. 00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:49.920 I was gonna say, like, we got to Jesus. 00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:50.240 Yeah. 00:00:50.399 --> 00:00:55.280 And now Jesus is a very important part of a three-part thing. 00:00:55.600 --> 00:01:00.479 Yeah, so if you're listening to this in a vacuum, we're in the middle of a series, or I guess not the middle anymore. 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:00.719 Right. 00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:04.719 Um, two-thirds of the way through a year-long trek through the story of the Bible. 00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:14.879 We're not going verse by verse, but we're going through the the entire story arc of scripture and trying to focus on the main movements of God and what he's doing and what it informs us about him and about ourselves. 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:23.439 And and we got to uh the New Testament, so we're at Jesus, and we've spent the last few weeks looking at who who he is, not just what he did, um what he said. 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:29.040 We'll talk about that obviously, but who he actually is because scripture makes really bold claims about that. 00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:31.840 You know, it's not like we're saying today, I think he's this. 00:01:31.920 --> 00:01:36.879 I mean, he said it, and scripture, you know, the the writers of the the gospels put some bold things in. 00:01:36.959 --> 00:01:44.560 And last week we talked about Jesus being the word, the word of God, which is a which was a um it's a claim to divinity, right? 00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:49.920 But not even just divinity like an angel, you know, like a like I'm not just like a powered up human. 00:01:50.159 --> 00:01:52.000 I am I am the I'm the creator. 00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:55.280 I am God in the flesh, I sustain all things. 00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:56.079 Yeah. 00:01:56.319 --> 00:02:00.719 And you know, that's kind of a weird concept because it actually says the word as a substitute for Jesus. 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:01.840 And if you're like, what does that mean? 00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:05.359 Listen to the the the last message on Jesus is the word. 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:08.719 Um it says the word was God and the word was with God. 00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:11.439 And that's where you start getting this sort of dual. 00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:12.400 Well, how does this work? 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:16.560 I mean, Jesus says, I am the Father, talking about he calls God the Father. 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:22.960 It's really the first time in scripture that's the normal way to other people in the Old Testament weren't calling God Father God. 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:23.840 Right, right. 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:29.280 Well, and you you have in the Genesis account, we've got let us let us make human beings in our image. 00:02:29.599 --> 00:02:40.960 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, and even the word for God, Elohim, is like um it's a plural, but then it's treated like singular, it's like a plural word, but then all the verbs and whatnot indicate singular. 00:02:41.039 --> 00:02:41.599 So there's that. 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:45.360 It says God created the heavens and the earth, and the spirit of God was above the waters. 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:45.680 Right. 00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:51.280 So there's there's definitely it's there, but Jesus is the first one that really just starts like even we say God the Father. 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:56.400 Well, that we get that from from Jesus primarily, you know, God being the Father. 00:02:56.639 --> 00:03:03.840 Um and so, you know, it's like we've got this term Trinity that's developed over the history of theology. 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:08.719 What let me before we jump into that, what was your like what was your introduction to the Trinity? 00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:14.879 I think so it's like one of those, it's like always like here's an here's another illustration. 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:19.360 And so you grow up in church and you get a bunch of like a handful of illustrations to explain the Trinity. 00:03:19.439 --> 00:03:36.639 The one that I think was introduced to me first is an egg, where it's like okay, and you call it an egg as a singular thing, but it is made up of three parts the shell, the yolk, and well, I don't know what the what the not yolk part is of an egg is called. 00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:37.120 The white. 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:37.919 The white, yeah, yeah. 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:39.840 Like the snot part of the egg. 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:41.840 Until it's cooked, and then it's white, yeah. 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:42.639 That's delicious. 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:45.360 And uh, I don't think that's a perfect analogy. 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:51.919 I don't think there is a perfect analogy outside of just like recognizing in the Bible here the dynamics that exist. 00:03:52.159 --> 00:04:00.479 And so um the egg analogy, when I was in youth group with you, uh, two and one shampoo conditioner was the analogy. 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:01.520 Now there's three and one. 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:02.240 Now that exists. 00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:04.400 I have it in my they invented three and one. 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:14.159 And so yeah, Jesus says, He commands us in the Great Commission to baptize people in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:16.160 Jesus often referred to himself as the Son. 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:21.120 Right, he called God Father, and he prayed to God the Father. 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:21.759 He would pray. 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:22.959 People said, How should we pray? 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:24.800 He said, Pray like this, Heavenly Father. 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:27.199 Uh before he got arrested, he prayed and said, Father. 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:29.360 But then he also said, The Father and I are one. 00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:29.680 Right. 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:34.800 And he said, I will send, I'll ask the Father after I die and ascend to heaven, send you a helper. 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:38.800 Send you a helper, and then the Holy Spirit will come, and the Holy Spirit will teach you and guide you and empower you. 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:46.319 So you have all that there, but Jesus really wraps it up night neatly for us when he says, Baptize people in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:54.399 And so the word Trinity doesn't show up anywhere in the Bible, but that is the term that people over time just began to coin to describe. 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:56.800 To represent all a God in his fullness. 00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:03.199 Yeah, and the idea is one God, right, one being, three persons. 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:06.079 And that's a that's a tough thing for people sometimes. 00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:08.639 Yeah, and I think maybe you see it most clearly. 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:14.800 It's interesting that he says go baptize people in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, because you see it most clearly at his baptism. 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:17.439 You see he's standing in the water. 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:18.399 He's in the water. 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:19.439 Yeah, keep that going. 00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:20.879 Holy Spirit descends like a dove. 00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:27.120 The voice of the Father comes from heaven saying, This is my son with whom I'm well pleased. 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:29.600 Okay, you can't be the first person that's made that connection. 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:30.959 I think a bunch of theologians are. 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:32.240 I'm sure, I'm sure. 00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:37.439 But also, I haven't actually heard people talk about that moment with the Great Commission. 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:41.040 Yeah, connecting those two things together, how we have those three happen at the baptism. 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:42.399 That's ding ding ding. 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:42.959 That's really cool. 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:47.680 So I just want to talk about that for a few minutes because um I said in the message that we would. 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:50.639 And I think where I want to start is a really simple idea. 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:54.560 And it's the difference between revelation and imagination. 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:55.439 Okay. 00:05:55.839 --> 00:06:03.360 So what I mean by that is we have to deal, we have to recognize that God is bigger than us. 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:07.360 And I think pretty much everyone does, no matter what your faith tradition is. 00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:15.759 I don't know of a major faith in the world that has a view of God where God is not greater, bigger, grander, right? 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:19.519 And so we struggle to come up with ways to just describe God. 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:29.839 But what we have to do with God is deal with him as he has revealed himself to us, instead of just simply imagining what we think he might be. 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:30.079 Right. 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:35.199 And that's where a lot of there's a lot of struggle with people sometimes because a lot of people want to do the opposite. 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:36.720 They want to just like, well, I think God. 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:42.800 And then what we find throughout history is that if you start imagining what God is and making a God out of your imagination, you make some really horrible gods. 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:51.439 Like the pagan gods of ancient religions were all man-made, invented gods that were horrible, evil, demanding, you know what I mean? 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:53.199 And those were the gods of human imagination. 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:55.920 That was people going, Well, I think God Right. 00:06:56.000 --> 00:07:05.360 So what you're getting at is there's no like Trinitarian box that's going to perfectly overlay and make full sense to humans and fully describe describe God truthfully. 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:05.839 Right. 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:07.759 Well, we we can't go backwards, is what I'm saying. 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:13.279 Like what we can't do is go, well, I have thought of a concept that I think explains God. 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:19.199 Anytime human beings have done that, what we come up with is really it's it's not good. 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:22.079 But we would ascribe to the Trinity as a concept. 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:24.480 Like we would say, like, yes, we believe God. 00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:31.839 But the difference would be we would say, well, this is how God revealed himself to us, and now we have to unpack that. 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:32.240 Right. 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:32.720 Right? 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:42.399 So like I doubt many of the prophets, like Isaiah, probably didn't have a Trinitarian view of God, and he wrote scripture. 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:42.639 Right. 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:43.040 Right? 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:46.480 He was he was in the presence of, he saw those things, right? 00:07:47.040 --> 00:07:51.360 But but God over time throughout scripture bit by bit reveals more of himself to us. 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:58.079 And what we have to do as people is uh unpack and make sense of that revelation. 00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:01.439 And so my point with that is just saying we gotta start there. 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:07.439 Like Jesus Himself gave us this framework, this framework to work with. 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:09.600 You know, I and the Father are one. 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:18.240 The son of, and even the phrase son of in in Hebrew doesn't just mean like biological offspring, it means of the same substance, right? 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:21.759 And the Bible Project uh podcast has done some really cool stuff about that. 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:32.080 But like of the same, because why the sons of the prophets uh in the Old Testament weren't the sons of Elijah and Elisha, they were just like, you're like us, we're of the same, you know, ilk. 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:46.320 So you have the son of God, and he calls himself the son, and he talks about God as his father, and he's doing the will of the father, and he talks about the Holy Spirit, and then you see in the moment of the baptism, all three working together, you see in different moments in an overlap. 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:50.799 Um, and then he gives us this name of the Father, the Son of the Holy Spirit command. 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:56.159 And this is this is Jesus saying this is how it actually is. 00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:02.240 This is him opening the the doors a little bit, you know, give giving us a window into things we hadn't fully seen before. 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:06.159 And now what we try to do is go, okay, that's an interesting concept. 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:09.120 Uh what can I find in the world that helps me make sense of it? 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:09.919 Right. 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:24.720 Um, and I just want to start there because I I do think it's important to recognize that this is what has been told to us, revealed to us, and now it's just like Moses, Moses, the burning bush, like you just see him trying to make sense of this. 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:25.120 Yes. 00:09:25.279 --> 00:09:29.279 He's no one's ever been re like, God's never revealed himself this way to someone before. 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:29.519 Right. 00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:31.679 And God even tells Moses, this is my name. 00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:34.240 And now they gotta figure out, okay, what do we do with that? 00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:35.120 Well, that's what we're talking about. 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:38.559 Yeah, so you're saying let the frame that you start with be what's revealed in scripture. 00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:44.080 Don't let it be any Sunday school version of, or even like where it's like my brain can't understand this. 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:46.000 I'm just gonna like cram it into something that makes sense. 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:49.600 I'm gonna cram it something that makes sense, or I'm just going to reject it because it doesn't make sense to me. 00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:50.320 I don't get that. 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:50.799 Okay. 00:09:50.960 --> 00:09:54.159 Um, you know because what we're not doing is inventing a concept of God. 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:56.159 We are unpacking something that's been given to us. 00:09:56.240 --> 00:10:01.039 And it's a silly version of it, it'd be like that episode of The Office where they're like inventing gods, you know what I mean? 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:04.559 That you know, where Michael Scott, the face of an eagle. 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:09.120 The God is a has the face of a this and a what if what if they just start going, what if God? 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:09.519 Right. 00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:11.840 And for most of human history, people have done that. 00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:28.720 They've gone, what if God is, and what we've come up with operating from our own imagination, yeah, it's it's given us just entire cultures of absolute abhorrent evil built on this imaginary God that if you sacrifice your children to it, the rain will come. 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:29.440 Correct thing. 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:31.200 We're talking about what's been revealed to us. 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:33.840 And then we go, okay, I don't get that. 00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:35.279 Explain, help me out. 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:42.879 And there over the years, there have been some, I think, phenomenal attempts to make sense of it the best we can, and and they work for me. 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:46.320 The egg thing is is, you know, it's like a I think it's a really elementary thing. 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:52.240 It's like, oh, here's a thing that exists and it's got it's three things, but it's separate, but they're all one thing. 00:10:52.480 --> 00:11:06.799 Um I've I I've for years talked about how, and I can't remember when this kind of clicked for me, but I was like, well, if we're if we're made in the image of God, as it says like Genesis chapter one, let us make man in our image plural. 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:09.840 Well, if we're made in God's image, is there part of us that reflects that? 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:13.600 And we've talked about the fact that, yeah, we we sort of have a relationship with ourself. 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:20.559 And we'll like I'm going, I'm dieting like right now, like I always am, which means I'm failing at dieting on a pretty regular basis. 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:22.080 But I have arguments with myself all the time. 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:22.399 Right. 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:24.080 And so who are you arguing with? 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:25.120 Yeah, it's still me. 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:25.519 Right. 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:28.879 There's the there's the like internal me, right? 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:36.799 You know, the that is like, don't eat that corn dog at the fair last night with your and then Justin, just because you ate the corn dog doesn't mean you have to eat a funnel cake too. 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:38.159 Come on, man, we've got goals, right? 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:41.200 And then there's that is like, shut up. 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:42.159 I'm eating the funnel cake. 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:44.080 It's I've I I've earned this, you know. 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:45.919 And we fight with ourselves all the time. 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:50.559 People constantly battle with and you even have conversations with yourself. 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:56.320 Yeah, and I think maybe the internal fight there is because uh a huge aspect of us is broken. 00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:02.240 And so if you could imagine an aspect of yourself that wasn't broken, if you were all aspects of yourself weren't broken, what would those conversations be like? 00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:12.799 If you're like living in harmony with yourself in the sense that uh, you know, your internal intellectual self is like, hey, x hey, uh I think this diet Hey Flesh Justin, good job. 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:15.200 And you're like, thanks, intellectual Justin. 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:16.639 You you've been a lot of help in this process. 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:20.320 We consider that this diet might be a little overboard, you know, or whatever it is. 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:24.000 Yeah, but even still, like if God is just not at war with himself, right? 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:30.559 So my point there is that we do, I think, as people, even sort of reflect this. 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:35.039 Image that little image not perfectly, not tiny bow on it. 00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:38.320 I mean, some of my favorite favorite discussion of this idea came from C.S. 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:39.120 Lewis. 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:42.000 Um, he talks a lot about the two-in-one body wash. 00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:42.960 Two-in-one body wash. 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:44.799 It was uh But he said it in a British accent. 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:46.879 So it sounds more intellectual, right? 00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:51.039 It's uh it wasn't uh body wash, it was bodywash. 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:57.679 And so anything that's bodywash, it's just obviously no, you know, Lewis like he's you know super intellectual guy. 00:12:57.919 --> 00:12:59.279 And if you've never read any of C.S. 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:01.440 Lewis stuff, it's it's it's cool to read. 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:02.399 It's actually not that hard. 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:04.080 No, it's they're short books, usually. 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:06.159 They're pretty pretty small, pretty digestible. 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:17.440 But he he really focuses on this idea of God being super personal, which I think is really interesting because the the preface super just means more than, like at its core. 00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:22.000 And we use superhuman means like someone's more than a normal human, right? 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:23.840 Whatever, a superhero. 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:27.440 Um and he talks about you know, God we supernatural. 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:36.879 We would say God is almost anyone who believes in God would admit that God is supernatural, um, as far as we see nature. 00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:39.120 But he says, well, no, God is just super. 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:42.240 Like he essentially, and he calls God super personal. 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:47.360 So where you and I are one being, you're our being is our individuals. 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:50.320 We're individual beings, but you're a human being, I'm a human being. 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:51.679 We're interpersonal. 00:13:51.919 --> 00:13:53.519 And we are one person, right? 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:54.559 Like you're Madison. 00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:56.080 We aren't one person. 00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:56.480 Right. 00:13:56.639 --> 00:13:58.320 But my okay, so you are a human being. 00:13:58.480 --> 00:13:58.720 Yes. 00:13:58.879 --> 00:13:59.600 That is what you are. 00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:00.240 Yes. 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:01.200 That is your being. 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:02.080 Like God is a being. 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:02.879 Oh, okay, okay. 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:03.600 I'm tracking. 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:06.000 But you have a person that is Madison. 00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:06.639 That's an identity. 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:07.440 That's called Madison. 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:09.360 My species is your species is human. 00:14:10.159 --> 00:14:11.440 My person is Madison. 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:14.320 So you are a being, one being who has one person. 00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:14.960 Gotcha. 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:16.879 Um, I am one being who has one person. 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:24.639 Well, God is one being, but he is, Lewis's way of describing it was not just supernatural, he's super personal. 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:25.440 Gotcha. 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:28.559 And the way he kind of likens it is interesting. 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:32.720 It's like think about um, think about life on a 2D perspective. 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:35.039 Like if we all existed in two dimensions. 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:35.440 Right. 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:38.720 Okay, and so picture some two-dimensional world and there's like a square. 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:42.080 And what would a square do if a square saw a cube? 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:47.200 Because a cube uh in three dimensions is six squares. 00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:48.799 It's one shape, right? 00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:49.840 Six squares. 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:53.840 And that square is one shape, you know, one square. 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:54.320 Right. 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:59.519 And so uh in reality, if you lived on a two-dimensional plane, and this is a weird kind of thought process. 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:00.720 But it's cool. 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:04.720 And a cube shows up in it, it's just gonna look like sometimes it would look just like you. 00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:07.039 A weird square, a weird line. 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:09.120 Yeah, in certain angles it would look exactly like you. 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:09.279 Right. 00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:12.000 And other angles it would change, like, I don't understand what that is at all. 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:17.440 But you wouldn't be able to comprehend three dimensions if you've never experienced that. 00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:28.399 And so he uses that as this illustration to say that you know, we have to recognize that God is super, and he is not just supernatural, he's super personal. 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:31.600 He's not impersonal, he's actually even greater in that. 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:44.000 And and so the revelation Jesus gives us is we have this one being and he's just more layered and and it's not three distinct, just like a cube is not six squares, right? 00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:45.440 But it is six squares. 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:46.480 But it's cute. 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:47.120 Yes. 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:52.320 And from a square's perspective, that thing is like Alright, I feel like we've I feel like we've gone off the deep end now. 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:53.120 Do you think so? 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:58.399 I think you well, it's hard to talk about the Trinity because uh on a fundamental level, it's a paradox. 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:00.639 It is, that's yeah, and that's and that's what I'm trying to say. 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:04.080 It's a and that's what I want to go back to what I said at the beginning. 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:07.519 Um, if you're just wanting a simple analogy that says, oh, it's just like an egg. 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:07.759 Okay. 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:11.519 I've got the simple one that I've just like I I just draw this in my brain. 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:16.879 It's a triangle and it's God, Father, and the Holy Spirit on each triangle, and in the middle it says God. 00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:27.279 It's like Jesus is God, the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and then Jesus is not the Father, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not Jesus. 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:35.279 And I and I appreciate that, but I also think that uh for a lot of people, just showing them a picture of a triangle has not like been, oh, okay. 00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:42.240 You know, no, but I'm saying once you get into like we're into a four-dimensional square on a three-dimensional object. 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:45.039 No, no, no, but hold on a second, hold on a second. 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:47.039 He is a four-dimensional square. 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:48.559 Like, no, that and that's true. 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:53.279 Like what happens every time in the Bible that someone is brought into sort of like the heavenly realm. 00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:54.320 Their brain melts. 00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:54.720 Yeah. 00:16:54.879 --> 00:17:04.960 They're like I and they're trying their best to come up with words that describe what they're seeing, and it's all these, it was like faces like a this. 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:11.119 I guess it was like an eagle, but it was like a city, and it had uh it's just greater than that. 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:14.400 And what's funny is is people we we like we can relate to that. 00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:21.039 The first time I ever interacted with a seven-foot-tall human being, it melted my brain. 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:22.799 Like, I mean, unless you've been around someone. 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:24.160 Yeah, I don't think I even have. 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:27.200 Oh, it's like it doesn't and and my father-in-law, six five. 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:28.240 That's big that he's tall. 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:28.799 He's tall. 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:31.279 Seven feet's not that much bigger, but it is. 00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:35.119 And when you see a seven-foot human in person, you're like, you're not a thing. 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:35.359 Yes. 00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:37.920 Like, that's not on TV, it's different. 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:46.000 In person, you're like, that's like I shook hands with a seven-footer, and his fingers were halfway up my wrist, and I felt like a tiny child. 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:47.680 And it blew my brain a little bit. 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:55.759 Like people who visit uh other places in the world where there haven't been any like there hasn't been like interracial, right? 00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:59.839 Like they'll talk about the fact that people will come up to them and it's just like your skin is that color. 00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:00.480 How is that possible? 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:05.279 Your hair is that color, your eyes are that color, like you don't make sense to us because we've never seen that. 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:05.599 Yeah. 00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:12.319 My my point is whether it's an egg, shampoo, and body wash, a triangle with God in the middle, and all that. 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:14.880 For me, the the most helpful analogy has always been me, myself. 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:17.599 Like I feel like, okay, I have a physical body, that's Justin. 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:20.720 I have a like an intellectual self, that's Justin. 00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:22.960 I also think I have a spirit that is me. 00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:25.839 And sometimes my spirit and my mind are in sync, but my body isn't. 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:26.960 Sometimes all that's yeah. 00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:38.640 Well, can I can I But I just wanted to go back before we add it, I just want to go back to all those analogies are great, they're all helpful, but we just have to start with recognizing we have a God who is greater, right? 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:46.240 And he's revealed himself to us in this way, and then we do our best to make sense of it. 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:55.279 Um, and it's okay if we if we stumble onto like lots of different analogies that kind of help, but not one that just goes, oh well done. 00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:55.680 Right. 00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:57.839 And that's where I wanted to go back to the baptism. 00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:02.000 Uh to add, like, there are analogies that are somewhat unhelpful. 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:02.319 Okay. 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:06.400 Um, so like the the water analogy is one that people give a lot of times. 00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:07.279 Okay, I haven't heard it. 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:08.240 So if I have, I forgot. 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:12.640 H2O is ice and vapor and water as you take a drink of water. 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:13.279 That was pretty cool. 00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:14.400 I am drinking water at that moment. 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:15.519 That was well done. 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:16.240 Good job. 00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:29.119 Um, and so that I as I understand it is like a Christian, early Christian heresy called modalism, where it's like Jesus, when he's Jesus, isn't the Father, and it's like one at a time. 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:30.079 Yes, like one at a time. 00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:31.599 So like when you do the ice analogy. 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:33.200 But then that breaks down at the baptism. 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:34.079 Like what's going on? 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:36.480 At the baptism, you see them all simultaneously. 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:42.799 And so when it comes to those like analogies, it's like there are things that we can draw out, but there are also some that are unhelpful. 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:43.359 Oh, yeah. 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:46.160 Because God is God and He is God all the time. 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:54.960 He's not like, and then when he was healing as the Holy Spirit or showing up at in the burning bush, he wasn't also, you know, the Father and the Son simultaneously. 00:19:55.119 --> 00:20:00.640 Like he's he's he's three persons existing simultaneously as one being. 00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:06.240 And and we even do see somewhat like a hierarchy because Jesus actually said the Father is greater than I. 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:06.640 Right. 00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:13.200 And or in Daniel, when he goes to the thrones, there's like a little mini throne next to the big throne, and that the that the Son of Man sits on. 00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:19.200 And so and so even within uh I mean, like in that even like us, okay, I'm a human being, you're a human being. 00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:20.799 I've heard someone describe it this way once. 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:22.559 Like we exist in an organization. 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:22.960 Right. 00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:24.720 I'm above you in the organization. 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:27.599 I am not greater than you as a being. 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:28.000 Right. 00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:28.319 Right? 00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:31.359 I'm like morally No, I'm not a superior being. 00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:31.920 Yeah, yeah. 00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:35.519 I am you and I are equal completely in terms of we're both human beings. 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:36.079 Right. 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:49.279 Um, but within this framework of the organization, there's there's roles that I play that you don't play, and we we submit to, and there's even times where I'll submit to you, like you're the youth pastor, and there's lots of times where I'll be like, hey, I had an idea. 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:49.599 Sure. 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:50.960 And you'll be like, I don't think that'll work. 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:53.279 I know my students, and I and I'll be like, cool. 00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:55.920 And I I don't just go, I am the boss, right? 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:57.200 There's a mutual submission. 00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:00.960 So we do see in scripture where that modalism was probably helpful, right? 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:08.319 Is recognizing it there are different roles that the spirit, the son, the father play, but they're not. 00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:17.839 It's not like when God when the when the son left heaven and relinquished his heavenly authority, the father didn't leave heaven. 00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:18.400 Correct. 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:22.960 You know, so but the father, but the son was in heaven and had heavenly authority. 00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:23.519 Yeah. 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:30.319 Um, which I guess gets re refunded to Jesus after his resurrection because he says all authority of it in heaven. 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:31.440 I think he even gets more. 00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:34.480 Yeah, he even gets like a promotion within himself, yeah, you know. 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:38.079 But yeah, and and that's my point, is it's like I kind of like the idea. 00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:41.119 Some some people want to have it completely spelled out. 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:46.559 And this is a little bit of one of those uh could God create a rock so heavy he couldn't lift it type ideas. 00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:53.680 Um meaning that if you use human logic completely, you will get to the end of yourself with God and you'll get to ask stupid questions. 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:55.839 But I do think this one is is worthwhile. 00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:59.599 This the intellectual understanding that if I could ever perfectly explain God. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.880 Or understand God, that disproves God. 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:04.160 It just does. 00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:20.640 If there how if I in my 40 years of human existence can like totally describe and completely answer in a in a way, the only way I could do that, actually, like logically, is if that God had told me, had revealed to me. 00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:20.880 Right. 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:25.519 There's if I could in my own mind, then I'm I'm I have a mind equal to God. 00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:26.319 It doesn't make sense. 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:30.079 And so that that's I think that's why I do like the whole I think it's just silly. 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:32.559 I like the like square trying to make sense of a cube. 00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:39.759 I just think it's a funny, like, but it kind of it kind of But at the same time, there are true things you can say about the cube and untrue things you can say about the cube. 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:48.720 So it's like like along in that process, it's like if we're using scripture as our backbone, there are true things that you can say as you work out what God looks like. 00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:50.960 Which is why we go back to Revelation. 00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:51.200 Right. 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:53.839 Not in Not the Book of Revelation, like scripture reveals. 00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:56.000 Yes, God's God revealing. 00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:56.960 Yeah, thank you. 00:22:57.039 --> 00:22:59.440 We go back to what God has revealed. 00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:02.559 And so it's like kind of like you have maybe three categories. 00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:06.400 You've got revelation, observation, imagination. 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:08.960 God reveals himself to us. 00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:14.880 We observe certain things about him as he's revealed to us, been revealed to us. 00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:20.559 And then we kind of imagine well, does that mean then that what if this? 00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:21.440 And that's great. 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:28.720 That's that's a lot of theology is us applying our imagination to the observations we've made based on the revelations that he's given. 00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:32.559 We just don't want to get all that out of order where we like imagine something. 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:35.920 I I went to college with a girl, this is I'm old. 00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:40.079 Um, there was a movie that Robin Williams was in way back in the day called What Dreams May Come. 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:42.480 And he like dies and he goes, There's paint. 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:43.200 There's a lot of paint. 00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:44.079 Have you seen that movie? 00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:44.880 I haven't seen it. 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:46.319