WEBVTT 00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:10.880 To promote the general welfare is riffing off of these verses where it says to it's a servant for your good. 00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:16.719 So the general welfare is not a right now we think of general welfare as like something everybody already knows. 00:00:18.160 --> 00:00:22.320 The general welfare is obviously not something that everybody already knows. 00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:22.800 No. 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:32.320 The general welfare, if we want that to be truly realized, then we would think of how is the general welfare described in the Bible? 00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:33.119 That's right. 00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:36.159 That's the general welfare that is to be promoted. 00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:38.240 Part of that is a religious life. 00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:41.679 The only true religious life is one that honors Christ as king. 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:43.520 So that's the one that should be promoted. 00:00:43.759 --> 00:00:44.079 Yeah. 00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:45.759 Yeah, I agree. 00:01:01.039 --> 00:01:02.799 Hi, my name is James Rathman. 00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:04.560 And my name is Jacob Carr. 00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:07.519 And this is the Redemption Church Podcast. 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:18.400 We are discussing Romans 13 today, Jacob, for your inaugural participation in the Redemption Church Denver podcast. 00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:19.200 Thank you for having me. 00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:20.799 We're so excited that you're here. 00:01:21.519 --> 00:01:26.480 This episode of the Prog of the Podcast is brought to you by Deck the Halls. 00:01:26.799 --> 00:01:32.159 Deck the Halls is coming up on Sunday, November 23rd, from 11 a.m. 00:01:32.319 --> 00:01:36.799 to 1.30, so you'll just stick around right after church, and we will deck the halls of the church. 00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:42.319 We will hang Christmas lights on the exterior of the building, so bring a ladder if you got a ladder. 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:48.159 We will be hanging garland on the inside of the building, so bring a ladder if you got a ladder. 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:55.200 We'll be putting up setting up Christmas trees and listening to Christmas music, and we'll order pizza. 00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:56.959 It's one of my favorite times of the year. 00:01:57.200 --> 00:01:58.000 Sounds great. 00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:13.120 Also, shortly thereafter, just about a week later, on Saturday, November 29th, from 4.30 to 5.30 in the evening, right on the front lawn of Redemption Church Denver, we will be hosting the Berkeley Carol Sing. 00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:17.520 I think this is our fourth annual Berkeley Carol Sing. 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:21.599 It's a big hit, and this is a wonderful thing to invite friends to. 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:29.520 We just sing carols on the lawn, uh, get into the Advent season that uh will begin the following Sunday morning. 00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:31.120 So this is a wonderful time. 00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:39.520 You can come spend on Tennyson, you can shop on small business Saturday up and down the street, and then finish off your afternoon adventures with the Berkeley Carol Sing. 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:40.000 I like it. 00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:41.199 Are we doing candles again? 00:02:41.439 --> 00:02:44.560 No, we're not doing candles because don't want to burn the building down. 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:47.199 Well, the children can't handle it. 00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:48.719 It's too much. 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:49.280 Yeah. 00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:49.520 Yeah. 00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:51.360 But we do candles on Christmas Eve. 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:52.080 Sounds good. 00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:52.879 Yeah. 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:57.520 So we we canceled candles for the uh Berkeley Carol Sing. 00:02:57.599 --> 00:02:59.759 It's just uh too much. 00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:03.840 So like to thank our sponsors. 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:06.960 Jacob, tell us a bit about yourself. 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:10.159 Introduce yourself for the for the Yeah, yeah. 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:11.039 You know, thank you. 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:12.639 Um a little bit about myself. 00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:19.840 I think most folks that listen to this should know me, but I've been going to redemption probably four or five years now. 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:20.400 Yeah. 00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:22.719 Uh my wife and I and our four children. 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:27.199 Uh we live in Arvada, and um no, we love the church, we love the Bible. 00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:30.240 Um, and then we just do all the normal, boring stuff in life. 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:33.039 Uh, take care of kids, work, all that good stuff. 00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:33.599 I love that. 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:34.240 That's great. 00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:35.280 Oh, yeah, yeah. 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:38.879 It's the the monotony is where the joy is found. 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:48.879 So the carr family is one of those families that just rained in from heaven to our church at a critical moment, saved us from disaster, and then uh have blessed us ever since. 00:03:49.039 --> 00:03:51.280 Liz, your wife, is our women's director. 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:51.840 That's right. 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:55.360 And uh does a wonderful job with women's ministry at the church. 00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:57.039 So thankful for her, so thankful for you. 00:03:57.280 --> 00:03:58.879 Excited to talk about Romans 13. 00:03:59.120 --> 00:03:59.759 Let's do it. 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:01.280 This is a heavy hitter. 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:01.680 Yeah. 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:04.080 So I wanted to bring you in because you're a heavy hitter. 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:05.360 Pinch hitting. 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:05.680 Yeah. 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:06.800 It is a heavy hitter. 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:07.919 It's very timely, too. 00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:09.360 Summarize it for us. 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:09.919 Yeah. 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:13.439 I think what topically what are we discussing in Romans 13? 00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:17.600 I mean, yeah, Romans 13 naturally divides into two natural sections, right? 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:22.399 Uh verses um one through seven is kind of our relationship with government. 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:27.759 And, you know, this is a very obviously hot topic in our society nowadays. 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:28.319 Yes. 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:43.759 Um, and then the the the second section is is eight through fourteen, which really talks about our relationship with the law, our relationship with one another, um, and our relationship kind of with the day of Christ and um how we are to live in this world. 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:48.959 So I there's uh you mentioned that it's hot, so we're talking politics. 00:04:49.279 --> 00:04:49.920 I think it is hot. 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:50.639 It is hot. 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:57.279 And here's something that I've noticed pastorally, and I think that this is um uh here's a take for you. 00:04:57.519 --> 00:04:59.600 Sometimes on this podcast we have takes. 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:00.480 I like it. 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:25.439 I think that discussing the uh pressing your faith into your political space in your life now feels the way that pressing uh your faith into the sexual space of your life felt ten years ago. 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:46.560 So uh it was if you just nick it, if you just it ten years ago, like if you just nick a discussion of what the Bible says about homosexuality, it's uh it's a a we're in a big w we're gonna have big reactions. 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:47.360 It's a nerve. 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:48.639 We hit a nerve, yeah. 00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:49.040 Exactly. 00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:50.079 It's a raw nerve. 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:59.279 Where there's this like clear intersection between the church and the culture at this place, the place of sexuality. 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:04.480 Now I think that's been settled in a sense within the church to a large degree. 00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:17.120 The churches that compromised with uh uh homosexuality or the the you know the sexual revolution trends that have worked themselves out in our culture are irrelevant. 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:19.199 They're they're meaningless. 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:26.079 Um and right now we're in a we're in a moment where the nerve now is political. 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:32.560 So if it and it was likewise, I think 10 years ago it was and it and it is still, it's obviously still a nerve. 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:34.399 So I'm not saying sexuality is not a nerve anymore. 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:36.079 It's obviously still a nerve. 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:38.319 Um and still very meaningful to folks. 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:48.720 And uh but I so maybe it's not a replacement so much as an addition, as I'm thinking about it, of of nerves. 00:06:49.120 --> 00:07:07.120 But when we were talking about sexuality, the the uh there's this sort of reaction of like, if my non-Christians know my non-Christian friends know what I think about this, or know what the Bible perhaps requires of me about this, that whole relationship is at stake. 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:09.759 And that was really true for sexuality. 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:16.560 I think that that's likewise true now for your for what you think politically. 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:21.040 And so there's this, so it's a it's a really hot place to discuss. 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:21.839 Yeah, I agree. 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:32.639 And I think there's a lot of Christians that are asking, you know, real genuine questions, trying to understand um how this fits into their life, how does their Christianity and and God interact with it? 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:46.639 I wanted to ask you a question, you know, in terms of you know, before we really dive into Romans 1 through through 7, like what was your upbringing as as you know were growing up? 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:54.399 What were the things like what did you understand about politics and how Christians are to relate to the government? 00:07:54.639 --> 00:08:04.000 Was this something that was prevalent in your household, or is this something where, you know, like when you grew up, you're like, oh my gosh, I don't have a structure or a theology for this? 00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:06.079 Oh, I had no political theology. 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:06.399 Yeah. 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:08.160 No political theology growing up. 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:14.800 I had no political theol, I hadn't, I had, I didn't even know I lacked a political theology. 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:20.000 Like I I didn't even really recognize the category or think of it as a category. 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:32.240 I I thought that there were some vague Christian principles, which were basically personal ethical principles, which could then be applied to the political space. 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:32.639 Yeah. 00:08:32.799 --> 00:08:52.559 I had no sense that there were uh that the political space was a real uh distinct realm that God was interested in, and that he would have uh require he would have ethical requirements within that political realm that were not just expressions of personal ethical requirements. 00:08:53.200 --> 00:09:30.320 And so I was uh so so my political I thought of politics as just sort of a neutral arena into which you might want to express your personal ethical life, um, but not as a distinct space in which the Lord spoke to and had particular requirements for you politically and for governments and for citizens uh as a real category, a real distinct relationship. 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:35.919 Um so yeah, that's that's what it was like for me. 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:45.759 And then in that I think uh I learned that I didn't have a political theology in 2020. 00:09:46.879 --> 00:10:11.440 And I think most of the church was just caught flat footed uh when the government was shutting down churches, ours included, and um and I I I r recognized like I I'm I'm was kind of like trying to move as fast as I could to understand the political landscape that I was in. 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:23.120 And it probably and it I just kind of navigated that um just like an improv game from like what seems good right now. 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:34.159 Um and reflecting back, I realized, oh, I I didn't have a political theology from which to interpret the situation that I was in. 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:38.480 Um and I I need to develop one. 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:40.399 I need to develop one. 00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:41.120 Yeah, yeah. 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:42.879 I exactly the same for me. 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:50.559 I I mean I think and I think there's a lot of Christians now, because it is a very hot topic in society, so it's getting brought up all the time. 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:51.200 Yep. 00:10:51.440 --> 00:11:04.639 You know, I I think I I came from the same place as you, and I think there's a lot of Christians in that position now in the church where it's like I I need, I actually don't have answers for a lot of this stuff. 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:10.399 You know, personally growing up, I probably would have called myself politically agnostic. 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:10.960 Yeah. 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:14.639 I mean, I I did label myself as politically agnostic, yeah. 00:11:14.799 --> 00:11:22.559 Which is an absurd term now that I realize it, but it was one of those things like within politics, there's certain areas of truth that can never be deciphered. 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:25.519 And and I I think that's true in certain regards. 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:26.159 True. 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:33.919 Like, okay, that there's no, you know, how how many how much does a government tax somebody? 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:34.320 Yeah. 00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:35.759 There's always gonna be debate about that. 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:36.480 Yeah, of course. 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:40.080 But I I took that view and I applied it to all of politics. 00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:52.720 And so, um, and you know, even growing up when we were church planting in the UK and talking to pastors over here, I I remember a lot of the discussions were you just don't engage in politics. 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:53.279 Yeah. 00:11:53.519 --> 00:11:59.279 You just just don't, because you're gonna, you don't want to um, you don't want to alienate anyone. 00:11:59.519 --> 00:11:59.840 Yeah. 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:04.240 And I understand the heart of that, which was we want anyone and everyone to hear the gospel. 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:05.120 Totally get it. 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:09.679 But at the same time, it was leaving a huge gap in my understanding, my theology of it. 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:12.799 So I'm later to the game than you are, than 2020. 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:16.799 You know, this isn't something I've really looked into or become interested in. 00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:21.519 Um, I I don't feel like I got in the game in 2020. 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:29.600 I just reflecting back, I realized that that part of that experience was just being caught flat-footed with no political theology. 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:30.000 Yeah. 00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:31.919 Yeah while also being the pastor of a church. 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:33.840 Yeah, no, that makes sense. 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:34.480 Can I ask you? 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:37.360 I know we need to get into Romans, but I'm gonna ask you one more question. 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:47.279 Before we get into this conversation of politics and our relation to the government and the government's relationship to God and to us as well, because Paul lays all these out very clearly. 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:47.919 Yeah. 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:50.240 In in levels of importance, right? 00:12:50.399 --> 00:13:09.200 Like if we were to, if somebody's listening to this and being like, I don't know where I stand, or I disagree, or any of these things, like if we were to make a tier list of things that we need to understand and have a theology on, you know, obviously incarnation of Christ. 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:10.240 That's that's S t. 00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:10.960 Yeah, yeah, for sure. 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:13.440 Where would you know if we've got to align on that? 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:17.360 Um, you know, the death and resurrection of Jesus, that's up there. 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:22.000 Where where would you kind of put politics on that list? 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:31.600 I think it's it's up there with any of the other ethical requirements for a Christian. 00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:37.919 So it's not it's of course not um of the essence of saving faith. 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:38.399 No. 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:38.960 Yeah. 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:46.159 Um I and there's no expectation that any of us would come into the faith with this preloaded into us. 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:46.879 Yes, exactly. 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:52.559 Any more than there's an expectation that you would come into the faith with uh the Christian ethic preloaded into you. 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:56.559 It's it's a very unique thing that comes from the gospel. 00:13:56.960 --> 00:14:01.840 But we are uh uh political beings. 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:07.519 We exist in societies, we have governing authorities over us. 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:10.960 And so you it can't be neglected. 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:20.480 It's it's necessary uh to have a political theology to live in the way that God is calling you to live. 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:22.639 It's w it's one of the things that the Lord requires of you. 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:26.639 Um because he gives it to us. 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:37.679 Um and that's uh um so I I'd say it's not of the, yeah, it's it's certainly not of the essence of saving faith. 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:41.600 Um but it is very important. 00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:43.279 It's very important. 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:59.120 Just like uh uh just like understanding personally what what does the Lord require of you in terms of the personal ethic that you would uh that he requires of you. 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:01.360 We would say that it's extremely important. 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:06.320 Your life's gonna be really, really hard, unnecessarily without that. 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:07.440 Yeah, I agree. 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:07.919 Yeah. 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:08.879 No, that's great. 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:09.360 Thank you. 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:10.240 Yeah. 00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:16.799 Uh so let's jump in and let's talk about uh let's talk about the text, what he's what he's laying out. 00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:28.720 Um he we're just one chapter into sort of what's sort of like the application shift, where he's working out the implications of the gospel that he's so fully explained through chapters 1 through 11. 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:32.480 And it's sort of the how should we then live section that we're in. 00:15:32.799 --> 00:15:44.960 And he's worked out this this sort of this like personal, it's almost like a heuristic of like your life should be a living sacrifice, holy to God. 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:50.960 Um you should seek to live your life as a life of an offering of worship to the Lord. 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:55.679 So you're laying yourself down for the sake of his glory. 00:15:55.840 --> 00:16:03.759 And this is like the it's like an ethical heuristic for how to, like a rule of thumb for how to uh understand how to live. 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:09.679 And then he lays that out of how this works out in the body of Christ. 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:12.879 And so you're it's immediately social. 00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:19.759 You know, it's very hard to understand the how to live as a Christian. 00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:24.399 It's it's hard to understand how you would do that alone in the woods. 00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:29.679 Um because how do you love your neighbor as yourself? 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:34.639 Or or how do you experience the benefits of the body if you're alone in the woods, you know? 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:35.440 You can't. 00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:36.320 You can't. 00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:39.440 It's really hard uh to imagine. 00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:41.039 So it's immediately social. 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:48.559 And uh that's a and so he pulls us into the Christian body. 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:55.200 He's like, you're gonna have to understand that a new you're a member now of a new type of people. 00:16:55.840 --> 00:17:00.720 And this is the church, is this new people that the Lord has made for himself. 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:12.799 Just like when he brings the Israelites and the mixed multitude through the Red Sea, he immediately starts discipling them and teaching them how to be God's people. 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:20.240 And he brings them into situations that are challenging, you know, like uh first place I'm gonna take you is gonna be no water. 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:22.319 Then I'm gonna take you to places no food. 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:29.200 And uh and in all these ways I'm gonna be showing you how to be my people in the face of this sort of adversity. 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:31.359 Well, Paul's doing the same thing for us. 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:41.119 He's saying, you are this type of people because what the Lord has accomplished, like he's your exodus, uh, you're freed just like the Israelites were freed. 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:44.160 So now I'm gonna start discipling you in how to be a people. 00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:55.680 And that means that you are a people that are in a society, and that that means you have real authorities over you. 00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:09.759 And that authority is one that you have to know how to exist within and what the responsibilities of those authorities are to you and you to them. 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:34.640 Especially because unlike the uh Israel that comes through the Red Sea, uh your existing the Lord is not providing for you the particular shape of government, uh in a sense like from the top down that you ought to adhere to. 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:36.000 He's not describing that. 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:38.799 There are all kinds of shapes of governments that can take place. 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:45.279 And they're in a shape of government that's different from ours in the context that he's writing in, uh, but it's just as relevant to us. 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:45.920 Yeah. 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:56.960 I think that's the the beauty of this passage is you're right, it doesn't teach you that a specific form of governance is required in order for Christianity to flourish. 00:18:57.279 --> 00:18:57.519 Right. 00:18:57.759 --> 00:19:03.839 What we can see here is that Christians can interact and the church can flourish in any type of government that's instituted. 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:04.400 Right. 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:04.880 Yeah. 00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:05.359 Right. 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:07.039 Which was not true in the old covenant. 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:23.920 So the first call then, as he begins in in chapter 13, is let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:32.880 Therefore, whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:39.440 For rulers are a terror to good conduct, or excuse me, for rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. 00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:42.319 Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:46.160 Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval. 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:59.200 So right away there's a call for subjection to be subject to government, and then he offers a sense a sort of uh description of what governments are. 00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:04.960 You know, why is it that we want that we ought to be subject to governing authorities? 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:06.319 What do you think his answer to that is? 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:07.440 Or what is his answer to that? 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:10.400 Aaron Ross Powell, uh Because it's been established by God, ultimately. 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:13.039 Yeah, he he lays out three three principles there. 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:16.559 There is no authority except God, uh which God has established. 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:21.359 Authorities that exist have already been established by God. 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:21.839 Right. 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:27.440 And he who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God Himself has instituted. 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:28.000 Aaron Ross Powell Right. 00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:28.400 Yeah. 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:33.279 So it is not that you are this new people with a new citizenship. 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:37.839 Therefore, you don't have a citizenship to Rome. 00:20:38.480 --> 00:21:01.680 Or this abrogates your citizenship to the United States or to Denver or to district whatever I forget what district I'm in, but whatever district I'm in where I got the ballot mailed to me to vote for this district's issues, me being a citizen of heaven does not abrogate my citizenship to this district. 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:02.400 Yeah. 00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:06.079 Because that district has been instituted by God. 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:12.079 And this state and nation have been have been instituted by God. 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:14.640 It's these authorities which are real and which are over me. 00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:23.920 But I know like a national history and I know the idiosyncrasies of how different nations developed, and I can tell historical stories about those sorts of things. 00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:26.480 Like how are we saying that those were instituted by God? 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:33.440 Like I don't remember the divine fiat that created Colorado or the United States. 00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:38.319 Yeah, I I think I think in and chime in as well. 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:54.720 I I think what what Paul is describing here is um like I think it would be it gets a little bit nuanced at this point because the the structures are what have been created by God. 00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:59.599 And you could even go so far as to say, well, there's a ruler for every time and place, and that has also been. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.279 Instituted by God. 00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:09.359 I think in this particular passage, what Paul is more aiming at is um kind of the idealistic. 00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:11.920 I mean, we're going to get into very idealistic thought, right? 00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:15.119 In terms of this is how it should be. 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:15.759 Right. 00:22:16.079 --> 00:22:18.400 And how the government should act. 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:23.440 And we'll find out that even as Paul was writing this, the government was not acting that way towards it. 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:24.000 Right. 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:26.880 They were not rewarding good and punishing evil. 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:29.119 They were punishing good and rewarding evil. 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:29.599 Right. 00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:41.519 So I think in that sense, you know, we as Christians, I think it actually gives us it lays out this framework, this hierarchy which God Himself has instituted. 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:45.920 And we can rest assured in the fact that He's at the head of all things. 00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:46.240 Right. 00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:56.720 So it actually what it does is like without this type of understanding of hierarchy which God Himself has put in place, and you'll get good rulers and you'll get bad rulers. 00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:02.319 And we could talk about when do we, you know, resist evil and how is it done. 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:02.880 Right. 00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:10.720 But at the end of the day, what that does is this allows us to operate peacefully within the government that's been put over us. 00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:19.680 Because if we didn't have this theology, like, hey, you know, this government exists and it is an aberration to what God has done. 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:25.119 This is going against the direct will and commandments of God, then Christians everywhere would be anarchists. 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:25.759 Totally. 00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:33.920 So this allows us to operate within the system to certain extents without despairing. 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:49.759 And it and the beautiful thing, and I'm going to ramble a little bit here, is like as we get into this hierarchy, it's wonderful because uh even though God has instituted this hierarchy, He He has other realms of authority that are clearly laid out in Scripture. 00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:50.240 Right. 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:52.559 Obviously, the family is a realm of authority. 00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:57.279 The third one, which is typically reformers agree on, is the church. 00:23:57.440 --> 00:23:57.599 Right. 00:23:57.759 --> 00:23:59.599 So there's three types of authority structures. 00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:00.720 Right, three governments. 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:01.119 Yeah. 00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:05.440 That we're called to participate in and submit to at all at the same time. 00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:05.920 Right. 00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:08.000 The state, the family, and the church. 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:08.319 Yeah. 00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:09.119 Three governments. 00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:10.720 And so um. 00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:15.119 And I think the sorry, I no, no, I'll leave it at that. 00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:18.240 So I think I even forgot your original question, James. 00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:19.279 I just rambled a little bit. 00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:19.920 Just ramble. 00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:21.039 Yeah, let's ramble. 00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:22.240 I'm liking the ramble. 00:24:24.079 --> 00:24:37.759 Um so I think in terms of this is yes, uh, God has instituted this hierarchy, and we can get into, you know, what why do, you know, did God actually put Hitler in charge of Germany? 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:39.599 Was he was he sovereign over this? 00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:40.319 Yes. 00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:47.680 Um Stalin, Pol Pot, all I mean, even in Paul's time, and well, Diocletian wasn't in Paul's time, yeah. 00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:56.880 All of these emperors that severely persecuted the church, Paul can can emphatically look at them and say, uh that yes, they're evil. 00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:57.599 Right. 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:03.039 But we still are required to submit to this authority structure which God has put in place. 00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:04.960 I I think yes, that's right. 00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:05.680 That's right. 00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:13.680 Because we know that authority, because we know that there is such a creature of God, which is the government. 00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:14.960 It's a creation. 00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:16.559 The government is good. 00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:22.640 Government is not bad, it's good because it was it's a created thing. 00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:25.920 And he steps back from creation and he says good. 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:34.319 So it's it's built into creation as a creational norm, that the authority structure of government would would exist. 00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:43.279 And therefore, we ought to seek the the goodness of this creational norm and its full expression. 00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:45.200 And how do you do that as a citizen? 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:47.039 Will you be in subjection to it? 00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:53.119 You know, that's your that's the way that you would uh seek seek the the goodness of it. 00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:53.680 Yeah. 00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:57.440 And I think what it does as well is it helps Christians, you know. 00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:06.000 I think probably at the time of the Romans, I can't speak for what was going through the church in Rome and and why Paul addressed this. 00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:09.359 Obviously, they were things weren't going too well. 00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:15.759 But, you know, there's there's very sincere questions which Christians can and should raise about the relationship to government. 00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:18.799 You know, you could have, he goes on to taxes later. 00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:30.799 You know, it's like as I'm a citizen in this Roman Empire, and this Roman Empire is actively persecuting people with my beliefs, suppressing the church. 00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:33.599 How do I interact with that government? 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:34.160 Right. 00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:36.319 You're asking me to fund that? 00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:37.920 It's it's blood money. 00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:38.400 Yes. 00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:39.599 Yeah, absolutely. 00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:41.279 So those are really real sincere questions. 00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:42.400 Yeah. 00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:43.920 Yeah, yeah, fund it. 00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:45.359 Yeah, it's wild. 00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:46.240 It's wild. 00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:57.200 But without this understanding, then Christianity at its heart, we would be anarchists. 00:26:57.519 --> 00:26:58.160 Yes, that's right. 00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:01.759 Because where does the authority of government come from? 00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:03.599 The Christian says from God. 00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:04.079 Yes. 00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:06.000 The authority of government comes from God. 00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:06.720 Yes. 00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:12.640 The alternatives to that are the authority of government comes from power, just the brute brute force. 00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:22.960 Uh, or the authority of government comes from a social contract that we have developed with one another, which took place sometime a long time ago. 00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:26.720 None of us were there, but some social contract was developed. 00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:29.599 Um, and perhaps that's where the authority of government comes from. 00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:32.160 But the Christian says, no, the authority of government comes from God. 00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:38.240 It ought to be there, it ought to be respected, it is good that there is the authority of government. 00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:40.880 And and that should encourage us in a sense. 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:42.799 It it should keep us from despair. 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.599 This is where we should be so different from the world around us. 00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:46.079 Yep. 00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:55.039 Where people who do not have this belief, um, you know, they'll look at the whatever political party's in power, and if they disagree with it, they're prone to despair. 00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:55.440 Right. 00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:56.559 I'm gonna leave the country. 00:27:56.640 --> 00:27:58.160 This is the worst the country's ever been. 00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:06.640 But as Christians, we can we can look at this and say, this is something that has God's stamp of approval on. 00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:07.039 Right. 00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:16.000 It doesn't condone everything the government does, but the actual governmental system is something which God is behind, and that actually keeps us from despair. 00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:17.279 Yeah, it does. 00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:18.480 It does. 00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:28.400 So then his uh ethically, uh what you ought to do then with relation to the government is you should seek to have good conduct. 00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:36.960 So it it's almost like you should act as if you should act into the what it would be like if it were good. 00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:49.119 And you should have good conduct because the purpose of the of the government, when it's living up to its calling, is to reward what's good and punish what's evil. 00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:51.359 That's the that's the purpose. 00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:56.480 So it it's uh rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. 00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:06.400 Um you want to have no fear, then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. 00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:10.480 But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. 00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:16.400 He is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:52.160 So there's this participation, which is subjection, because the authority is from God, and this purpose of government, which Paul teaches us here, which is he is a the government is a servant of God for your good, and as a servant of God, the scope of his service, like the the authority that's been delegated to the state by God, is as an avenger. 00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:56.799 An avenger against evil. 00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:00.000 So it is God's sword in the world. 00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:12.000 It's the the government is the one who can kill and who can use force uh in order to promote the good and punish evil. 00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:15.359 Yeah, I mean, that's a really strong statement from Paul. 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:21.440 I mean, Paul is actually saying, yeah, like you said, who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:21.839 Right. 00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:31.599 So you're right, that is a very particular type of authority that has been delegated to the government in terms of capital punishment, right? 00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:32.720 Is essentially what he's getting at. 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:33.440 And war. 00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:34.319 And war. 00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:43.759 And um that is actually God's justice, should be God's justice in the world, in the here, in the now. 00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:52.480 And this is a and this is an authority, this vengeance is an authority which just the chapter before he took away from you as an individual. 00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:52.720 Yep. 00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:54.319 And likewise from the church. 00:30:54.559 --> 00:30:56.160 The church does not have this authority either. 00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:57.279 Neither does the family. 00:30:57.519 --> 00:30:58.240 Nope. 00:30:58.480 --> 00:31:03.440 Uh there's a uh because you you uh vengeance doesn't belong to you. 00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:05.519 Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. 00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:10.720 So you don't get you personally don't get to take out vengeance on the wrongdoer. 00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:12.640 I mean, we all love vigilante movies. 00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:13.519