Can We Actually Talk About this?
Can We Actually Talk About This? is the podcast where we talk about all the things women think about, laugh about, worry about… but don’t always say out loud. 👀
From sex, self-pleasure, dating and relationships to body confidence, getting older, friendships, people pleasing and everything in between - nothing is off the table.
Expect honest conversations, plenty of laughs, the occasional rant and absolutely no pretending we’ve got it all figured out.
We’ll also be trying, testing and reviewing some of the things we talk about - from sex toys and products to experiences that push us outside our comfort zones - and giving you our completely honest verdicts. 😈
Each episode we’ll share what we’re grateful for, get something off our chest with Rant of the Week, dive into Today’s Taboo, and set ourselves a Little Win that we have to complete before the next episode.
Two women. Real conversations. No judgement. Probably too much information. 😂
Can We Actually Talk About this?
People Pleasing
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Why is saying “No thanks, I don’t want to” so difficult?
Instead, we apparently need to create an elaborate backstory involving childcare issues, a poorly relative, an unexpected work commitment, a dodgy stomach and possibly a burst pipe… just so we don’t have to admit:
“I actually just want to stay home.” 😂
In Episode 2, Kirsty and Jess are talking PEOPLE PLEASING.
Why do we feel guilty for saying no? Why do we over-explain ourselves? Why are we terrified someone might be mildly disappointed in us? And why does a simple decline suddenly require a carefully constructed alibi with supporting evidence and three character witnesses?
We’re talking about the times we’ve said YES while every part of us was screaming NO, the ridiculous excuses we’ve made, worrying about what other people think and that lovely moment when you finally realise…
Other people being disappointed doesn’t automatically mean you’ve done something wrong.
Plus, we’ve got our usual Gratitude, Rant of the Week and Little Wins — including finding out whether we actually did what we promised we’d do after Episode 1. 👀
Expect oversharing, questionable advice, plenty of tangents and at least one moment where we realise we probably should have kept that story to ourselves.
🎙️ Can We Actually Talk About This?
Two women. No judgement. Probably too much information.
Hi everyone and welcome to this week's episode of Can We Actually Talk About This? Can we then? Can we? Can we? Yes, we can.
SPEAKER_00We're gonna do anyway. We are.
SPEAKER_01So this week we are gonna be talking about people pleasing. I do know.
SPEAKER_00I didn't realise she was gonna get me to say that, but I know it. Okay, people pleasing. We are gonna be talking about people pleasing, and this one has um been really popular on people wanting us to talk about it. I think it's such a big thing, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Well, when we did our um like Meet the Team introduction to us two, it came up a lot if we made it like it was very prevalent, so it is something that everyone you know goes to, isn't it? Anyway, we'll come on to that in a minute because before that, we've got a couple of things to cover.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01So, first of all, we're gonna start off with gratitude. So, what are we grateful for that's happened this week? Because we are very busy ladies, we've got very busy lives. I mean, exhibit A can't do anything without one of your family around, literally. There's a dog on my lap for those of you that aren't watching. Willow, she's the good one. Um gratitude. What are what are you grateful for, big or small, that's happened in the past week.
SPEAKER_00So I would probably say I've done a lot of gratitude recently around my actual life and what I'm living now. Yeah, because I think I do a lot of manifesting for the future, but actually I've been bringing a lot of gratitude into like each and every day, like the small things of being able to get up in the morning and go and walk the dogs. Like, I love being able to do that, like I love getting outside in the mornings, yeah. So I just kind of like walk outside, and I'm like, oh my goodness, I'm actually so grateful just to be able to get up in the morning and go for a walk. Like, it's so nice, it's helped me so much mentally as well to just start my day like that. Um, yeah, what about you?
SPEAKER_01Um, mine has been for the people around me. Like we went on a walk the other day for Glossville, and two women came that I knew previously, one I'd met through Body Boss and one I'd known from something before, and haven't seen them all for ages. And catching up with them, I was like, Do you know what? I've got some incredible people in my life, maybe not constantly, that I see every single day, but I'm so grateful that I meet and choose to spend my time with really great people. Yeah, like I am very lucky because some people are stuck in situations where they're surrounded by like really bad influences, like people who don't support them, who don't ask the questions of like how have you been? Like you ask them, and I was like, Do you know what? Yeah, I'm really lucky. Like, I've got good eggs around me, and I love them, that's really nice, so that's what I'm grateful for. I love them. That's nice, wasn't it? That was nice. Like, now let's go more towards a negative rant of the week. Oh, nice. Something that's really pissed you off.
SPEAKER_00That doesn't happen very easily. I can go for years. I don't and do you know what? One thing that I'm like, I wouldn't say like it's a massive rant, but I would like it's a bit of a rant. It's really annoying because there's a sickness by going around nursery and I don't want my kids to get it.
SPEAKER_01It nurseries in schools are just a petri dish of hell, aren't they? Absolute cesspit.
SPEAKER_00Literally, and I'm you know, when you're just like, oh god, like here we go. Yeah, so I've like fingers crossed, it's gonna be absolutely fine, but I just hate that. I hate it, I know it's happening. It's mixed, yeah, that's it. There's something, there's a cold, there's always something, and now I just the sickness one for me is like the worst one. I'm like, oh, like out of the thought of like having to let every child to go through it, then me and Craig clearing everything up, doing all the washing. Like, I'm just like, oh, when is this year's sickness bug gonna happen? Don't want it. No, so that's my rant, really. Okay, a fair rant, maybe. Yeah, are we ready? Am I ready for?
SPEAKER_01I don't really know if we're ready for you probably had nothing new. Um my rant this week is about sometimes as a parent where you just you've run out, you've run out. Oh yeah. You've run out of answers, you've run out of responses, you've run out of that where do you go from here? Like, you win. And I hate that feeling. Yeah, I want to win because I'm the parent, I'm the grown-up, and I hate it. Yeah, and the biggest thing for me is when my child goes, no. And I'm like, what do you what do you mean? What do you mean no? No. Okay, right. Well, not doing it then all. It's like you've gone through the sanctions, you've gone through the bargaining, you've done absolutely everything in your power. I even fake it cried. That doesn't work either. It's still there. So you're gonna do it now? Yeah, yeah. Right then, I'll just roll over because you've absolutely done me it. I hate it. I hate that.
SPEAKER_00It's exhausting though, isn't it? And it's like every single day you have the same battle.
SPEAKER_01And then let Jacqueline hide because I may wake up in the morning like I love you! I know.
SPEAKER_00What? Ella had me up at half four this morning, and I was like, Oh my goodness, like it's half four, Ella. Go back to sleep. She rolled over, stroked me, and went, Mummy, I really love you. Well, you know how to win my heart, don't you? Straight away, I now feel guilty for thinking in my head, like I'm annoyed at you for getting me up at half four in the morning. Like, what did you go to sleep? And then I'm like, Oh, oh, you love me. That's so nice. I'm ever so sorry for being angry at you. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, they're I think they're just little sociopaths, yeah. 100%. So I hear you on that completely. Yeah, yeah, good rant.
SPEAKER_01That's my rant of the week, and it'll probably be the rant of the next 18 years. I'll think of something. We'll probably do one next week, but there's many things that annoy me, but I just get a hold of my chest to see what they do. That's true. And then, like, what's really annoying me? That's really annoying me. Um, okay, well, on the topic of saying no, yes, my five-year-old doesn't find it difficult to say no, but why do we find it so bloody hard to say no to me?
SPEAKER_00Literally. You find that it's like you get massively like you feel guilty, don't you, for saying no to me. And then do you know the best bit is when you also know when someone's lying no? Because they give you this whole story of like this whole terrible thing that's happened, so over-explain themselves, and you're like, I know you're lying, it's okay, like it's a full-blown like narrative art, yeah, beginning, middle end, setting people plot twist.
SPEAKER_01We all do it, we all literally do it. It's just when did it become hard to say no? I know, and the thing is, even when you say no, you never say the word no, you say, Oh, I don't think I can, or you see, my my friend's mum's auntie's uncle has got a really bad cold, and I need to hang his cold, yeah, and I need to go deliver some bananas.
SPEAKER_00Only ones from Peru. So it's gonna take me five days, so I cannot because I've got to walk through the snow to get it. Yeah, so I cannot, I don't know, look after your child for an hour on Wednesday.
SPEAKER_01It's just ridiculous that we can't say no without saying because, yeah, and we can't just directly say no, like it's like uh well story can I make up. It's ridiculous, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Or what or like what's already happening, or what's just happened that I can say is happening now, it's fine because I managed the future. Yeah, they're not too bad. It's fine because last week the kids had a cold.
SPEAKER_01No one knows. It's fine. But when did we become these people? Would you describe yourself as a people pleaser now?
SPEAKER_00Um not anymore. I've got much better at it. Like it doesn't it doesn't bother me as much as it used to, for sure. Um there's still times when I feel like I need to explain myself and I probably over-explain myself, um, but I've got much better at making that decision of like actually no, I don't I don't want to do that. So I can I'm quite happy with being a bit selfish like that. My time is precious and I want to spend it with my kids. And the thing is, like I'm quite I enjoy helping others, yeah, you know, so it's only if there's something like I'm really like, oh that's just really not for me that I'll say no to. Um but I think in general I'm pretty good now at saying no if I don't want to do something. What's the secret? How do you do it? Do you know what? I think it's confidence in yourself, yeah. I think it's confidence in actually knowing what you want, and when you know what you want and how you want your life to look, you realise what you don't want to be doing. Yeah, you know, so then something comes up and you go, actually, does that fit in with how I see my day and my life, or is that actually like for example, say for instance, someone says to you, Can you look after my child on Wednesday at 10 o'clock? And you know on Wednesday at 10 o'clock you've booked to go to the spa or booked to have your nails done. You're then gonna be like, Oh, I really don't want to look after the child, but then I feel bad saying no, so I'm gonna cancel my nail appointment that I've actually been looking forward to for ages because it's the one thing I do for me. So then you then that's people pleasing because you cancel your appointment that was actually for you. You're putting yourself second. Exactly. That's when it's people pleasing instead of going like, oh no, I can't I can't look at them at them at 10 o'clock, but actually, I'm happy to have them at one o'clock after my appointment. I actually enjoy having them, so I I can't do it then, but I'm happy to have them then. Oh no, I can't do that. I can only but say someone came back, no, it's only at 10 o'clock, I really need someone to look after them. Actually, how important is it for you? How much does that person mean in your life? Yeah, if it was you, I'm more inclined to go, do you know what? I really appreciate her, she does a lot for me, so yeah, I'm gonna move my nail appointment because I want to do that. If it's someone who's constantly wanting from you, take, take, take take, take, take, then it's like, no, why should I then move my life around for you all the time? Yeah when all you're doing is take, take, take and it's like a weighing game. Yeah, exactly. Like I and I think that's one thing that I've got really good at seeing now. Yeah, for sure. Like, what about you?
SPEAKER_01I definitely am a people creator, I'm de I'm better than I was. Being on my own is good for me, like being single is good for me because then that makes me really think like I'm designing my own life, yeah, I don't have to take anyone else into consideration really, yeah, um, other than my child, obviously, because you know it's my job to keep them alive. Um kind of yeah, yeah. Um, but I don't have to think like we come as a team with me and my partner, so I have to like take them into consideration all the time. Do you know what I mean? So I think being on my own has forced me to really think about what I want, how I want my life to look, who I want in my life, and what I'm willing to give to others as well. Yeah, and I think that comes from like past relationships and stuff of giving too much to other people, getting burned by it, whatever. But I think I don't know whether it's a thing in general for women, like you hit your mid-30s or even early 30s, and you start to go, actually, like I'm almost mid-life now. I've spent the first part of my life following school rules, listening to my parents, doing what they want me to do, trying to fit in with friendship groups, trying to get interviewing, trying to get a job, trying to do this, that, and the other.
SPEAKER_00I'm just gonna do what I want. That's it, exactly. It's like how much of that has been what you've actually wanted and what you felt like society and other people have told you that you should be doing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think a lot of that then you do carry through with you, don't you? 100%. And I know that my gut reaction to things is like if people are like, oh, can we do this for me? I'm like, can I do that though? I can probably probably do it if I change this out here, and then the other part of my brain I was starting to kick in, going, but you don't want to change this down here to make their life easier and your life a bit worse.
SPEAKER_00And I've got to start listening to that other half of my brain quicker than I actually do, and there's like nothing wrong with taking space. Yeah, so when someone messages you saying, Can you do this? blah blah blah, there is nothing wrong with not answering straight away. Yeah, you know, and that's the time you need to actually realise and I am getting better at that because then people message you and they're like Jess doesn't respond to me.
SPEAKER_01I love that.
SPEAKER_00Like, right, she's taking some time, um but you do need to do that, like that is really important, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I am getting better at it, I'm more aware of it now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's the thing is being awareness is and then you get quicker at knowing what your response is gonna be. So I know quite quickly what my response is because I can tell straight away that I know my gut feeling, I know, like, oh, do I want to do that? No, I don't, okay, so it's fine, so I'll be like no. Um, but some stuff I take longer on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think also like working in a service-based business like we do now, I am better at saying no, yeah, because it it doesn't always have to be a personal thing, like I can represent the business saying no because it's bad for the business, but it doesn't fit with what we do rather than it's me saying no, yeah. Um and when I went to education, I you couldn't say no, like because you had all of these like there's teaching standards, and there's like different things within the teaching standards, so every time someone asked you to do it, they related back to that, and you were like, There's a teaching standard literally for you can go into the toilet at a certain time of day. It's ridiculous. And I remember speaking, I lived with my best friend Anna at the time, and and we rang her mum because she was like the god of all knowledge. Like, if you need anything, you ring Julie, and Julie was like and I was like, Julie, my manager said to do this, and this and this and this and this and this, and she went, Do you want to do it? I said no, she said, Well then don't do it. And that was it, that's all she said. And I was like, Oh, okay, well, I'm not gonna do it. It's like, you know, when you just need someone to remind you. Like, you don't have to bow down to something that everyone says, obviously within reading, like the law, I've gotta follow that. Um important. But like if if you get that gut feeling that this isn't what you want in your life or it doesn't align with you, yeah, it's okay to say that.
SPEAKER_00And also, like, know that you don't have to talk about to ten people about it. Oh my god, yeah. You know what I mean? To get their opinion, yeah. You should be doing something. If you question it, you probably shouldn't have to be able to do it. Because that's also people pleasing. Yeah. Checking with other people whether the decision you're making is right or not.
SPEAKER_01Because when you're looking at that confirmation, exactly, that's it.
SPEAKER_00So you're going, right, is do you do these ten people think it's okay? Okay, well, eight of them said that I should do it, two of them said I shouldn't. Even though my gut's saying I shouldn't, I'm gonna do it because eight people have said I should. Yeah. That's people pleasing as well. Do it and it's the wrong thing to do. Exactly. You notice it's just about knowing that you don't need to talk to lots of people about something and really listening within yourself and journaling on stuff as well. Like, if it's a bit more of a bigger decision that you're making, journal on it. Like, what's what's coming out for you? Like, write your pros and cons, you know, like write how your future life looks like. Is that in it? Yeah, you know, and being conf and growing that confidence in yourself to go, okay, yeah, no, that is the right decision for me. And trust me, even if you make a decision and it turns out that it wasn't necessarily the right decision, there's a reason you still made that decision to learn something to get to work wherever you're going. Yeah, to lead someone to do something. Exactly, because you might be driving down that road and you make a decision to go left, even though everyone's been telling you to go right, and then you hit a hurdle and you're like, oh my gosh, there's some bumps in the road here. Yet this beautiful pot of gold is at the end there, but at the end of that one is a load of pile of shit.
SPEAKER_01Do you know what I mean? I'm really proud of you. Oh, are you? Thanks. Do you see what I mean?
SPEAKER_00She might become across bumps in the road, but it was still the choice you were supposed to make because you felt like it was the right choice.
SPEAKER_01But you needed to go through those bumps.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Yeah, there's always going to be bumps along the way, no matter what decision you make.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Just make sure it's your decision, yeah. Not someone else's.
SPEAKER_01So that leads me into my next question. Do you think that people view you as a people pleaser?
SPEAKER_00Probably not. Do you not think? And I mean, I don't think my I think people that know me well wouldn't think I'm a people pleaser. But I think people maybe that don't know me very well would think I'm a people pleaser. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01I think because of the job that you do, yeah, it's very give, give, give to everybody else. Like, you I think if you didn't need to pay bills, you wouldn't charge for anything that you did. So like, and that's not necessarily putting yourself on the back foot, but you are putting other women first. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Like your time, your energy, everything that you do is centred around other women and helping other women, yeah. So I think from the outside you might think, oh, she's a bit of a people laser because she does so much. Yeah, who actually wants to do all that for other people?
SPEAKER_00Me, she does. I genuinely do, and I tend to I genuinely love it, and I think that's the thing, it is making those decisions knowing that you're doing something because you genuinely want to and you love it, as opposed to something you don't want to do, you don't really love.
SPEAKER_01But I think a lot of people would say the same thing about a lot of small business owners because they push lots of stuff and they're offering lots of things to people, they would assume it. But like you said, when people get to know you, it's very clear you're a middle child. If she doesn't want to do something, she ain't gonna happen, it's not happening, it's not happening, and she'll just tell you, no, we're not gonna do that. This is what we're gonna do instead. And we're like, okay, alright then. And the team between us, maybe the people are like, okay, no fine, no problem, and like I'll do it. And you're like, yeah, no, it's not. We're not gonna happen. No, no, no, no, this isn't happening anymore. Uh do you think people would see me as a people pleaser?
SPEAKER_00Yes. Do you think? I think I think I see traits in you as a people pleaser. I think it depends in what form they're seeing you as as well, because when you get your teacher head on, you're not a people pleaser, you're like, no, the this is what we're doing. You need like straight facts, yes, and if you've got like straight facts, then you're like, well, no, because this is the thing that I'm following, so then this is how it's being done. I'm not gonna go off course. I love a rule, exactly, so you like the rules, whereas I think when it comes to like I think you've got so much better though, since we've met, yeah, um, but yeah, not homie that's what I like to see.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it makes me feel awkward.
SPEAKER_00Um, but I there's definitely still your side, your like not your work side of things, yeah, you know, personal side. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_01And I think it's like I can see where that comes from because I will agree to things that I don't actually want for other people. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Which in fact is the definition of a people. Yes, literally, which is why like I say to you a lot, I want you to make that decision. Or what do you think? Because obviously, when you were like in the school system, I didn't have a you didn't have the option to you were like told what you're supposed to do. Whereas when you're working in a small business, you have to make decisions, you have to come up with ideas, you had do you know what I mean? And I love seeing what you come up with.
SPEAKER_01Do you know what it's really funny now? Like, speaking about this, the best mentor that I ever had working in education was a business studies teacher.
SPEAKER_00Really?
SPEAKER_01How I laugh not thinking until now, and his name was Andy Betts, and he was bloody mental, and I loved him, and he was the one who grew me the most as a leader. Yeah, like and I'll never forget he made me read what's his name, Simon Sinek, is that his name? The power of why? Yeah, where you think about the why you're doing something before you think about what or how. Yeah. That's just clicked. That's my how and he's a business and he was a business owner, like he joined a cafe, he lived, I remember something sorry we lived in a caravan and the shower was outside, and every time he put the hot water on the shower would just cling to him, and that's what I think about every time I think about Andy Betts. So you think of him in the shower, fun. But yeah, what I'm saying is I the business side of things has really helped me like to be more certain and assertive in what I'm doing and what I want to do. I still find it really difficult everywhere when you say you make that decision. I'm like, okay, don't say anything. And then she doesn't know. And she'll come to her own conclusion and she'll do it anyway. Oh funny. Okay. So, oh this is a good one. Kind of links in. Who do you find it the hardest to say no to?
SPEAKER_00Um probably family, for sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's like an obligation thing, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00That's it, 100%. Um yeah, it probably would be family. But again, I've got much better at that, so I'm actually you know, I'm quite happy with saying no. Yeah. Just doesn't fit in with what I want to do, okay?
SPEAKER_01It is good though. Because I think you recognise when whether it's family or close friends are asking something of you that doesn't fit with what you want, yeah, and you're very and it's I think it's almost easier for you not to give that exclamation for you to just say exactly what I enjoy.
SPEAKER_00Otherwise that you go into the over-explaining, and for me, because I'm so into manifesting, I never want to lie. Yeah. Because I'm like, well, then I'm manifesting that, yeah you know. So I just like to be honest with people now. Um yeah, so that what about you?
SPEAKER_01I think for me, oh I don't have one currently, it's like romantic partners. Again, probably some if she was like wanting to be needed or loved or whatever, yeah, yeah. That I definitely do it with them more than anybody else, and not even in like a sexual manner, no, it's in like I'll change certain things and do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00Don't necessarily bend around them, yeah, exactly. Rather than you think of what they want rather than actually what you also want. Yeah, yeah, we're working on that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00That's the main thing, Jeff.
SPEAKER_01And the answer is just don't have one. Yeah, so that's what we're going for in the world.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, really well. While we build your confidence and you find yours. We're getting there, we're getting there, we're gonna go.
SPEAKER_01She's all good, she's fine. She's good. She's fitted all the apps. Um so next question. Yes. Have you ever said yes to something when your entire body was screaming no?
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, 100%. Loads of times, especially growing up, for sure. Yeah, all the time.
SPEAKER_01See? No, I don't think I ever have.
SPEAKER_00Really?
SPEAKER_01Not my body's like screaming.
SPEAKER_00No, I no, not.
SPEAKER_01What I'll do then is create the elaborate line. Yeah, 100%, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. But I think there's been times where I felt the pressure of like everyone's doing this, so come on up and like now, I've not really wanted to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I get what you mean.
SPEAKER_00You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I don't I think I've done it when my body's shouted now, but not screen.
SPEAKER_00Scream, screen's a big word, isn't it? That's a really big word.
SPEAKER_01I don't know why we chose that one.
SPEAKER_00No. But anyway. That was chat cheaper too. Well, blame AI.
SPEAKER_01God is killing the world. Yeah, yeah. No, I think we've all I think everyone has done something that they knew in that moment they shouldn't really do. Yeah. And then regretted it later. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00But no, like you say with the whole your body's screaming that you shouldn't do it, then 100% outcomes the lie.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Whereas now be like, no, I am not doing that.
SPEAKER_01I still go down the white lie room. No, um, maybe not a lie, just an excuse. Yeah, like fair. Yeah. And I always make the excuses something I could it could possibly be happening. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, fair, yeah, that's fair. Um, okay, talking of excuses, yeah. I already know the answer to this question. Have you ever made up an excuse because say you didn't want to wasn't gonna a good enough reason? Yeah, would you? Literally, just I just don't want to hurt people's face. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00I used to do it all the time. I would just be like, oh my car's broken down, sorry, I can't go there. Yeah, I've got a flat tyre. I can't drive my car to get there. What's what's the worst excuse? I'm feeling it with the core as well. That one's a good one. Um what's the worst excuse I give them? I don't really know. I think I I mine's always have tend to be like I haven't felt well, or my car's I've got an issue with my car. I tend to go down those routes. Why what's yours then?
SPEAKER_01If you've got any like routes, no, the only one that's popping into my mind is when uni we used to have to go on school placement every year. So like they'd base you within like an hour and a half radius of where you lived. And me and my housemate Carrie were on placement at this school that was like probably an hour and 20 minutes drive away from where we were living. So you told me a three-hour round trip to get to and from work, and it was snowing, and all of our because when you're at uni, like no one else does this unless you're a teacher, like everyone else just goes to lectures or doesn't go to lectures, gets drunk and stays in the house all day. Yeah, and everyone was out playing in the snow, 20, 21 at the time, because it was like how fine are we going to be amazing, and everyone was like, especially in the group chat, like right, meet at the rep, we're gonna have a massive snowball fight. And I was like, We can't go to work, we cannot go to school today. I know we've both got a five-period day, but we cannot go in because we missed the snowball fight. So I rang up and was like, Oh, the clutch has gone on my car, and so I'm waiting for the recovery people to come and get it, and they were like, Oh, okay, like let us know a bit later on if you're gonna be able to get in. I was like, Yeah, I just don't know how long they're gonna take. Because if you say like the car's not worth you, yeah, then I'll let get on a train. So I was like, if we say the recovery guy's on the way, he's gonna get stuck in the way. Like, I planned this whole thing. You've got this really long story happening, and then they run Kerry, who was my housemate, because she was on pleasant with me, and they were like, Where are you? She was like, Oh, Jess's clutch failed, and we're waiting for the recovery van. They were like, Well, it only takes one of you to wait, so while you're on a training to work. Oh my god! Damn it, we didn't come on that side of the story, it didn't work! And then we just like I was so convinced we planned all out, and even our housemates were like, Oh, what if they say this? Right, well then I'll come back with this. Well, what if they say this? Well, I'm gonna come back with this. That is brilliant, honestly. We planned every contingency other than it doesn't take two of you to wake from brilliant, but we went in out of snowwall fighting it was.
SPEAKER_00I like that. I remember this one time when I was to be fair, I was early pregnancy and I didn't turn up to someone's PT session because I've fallen asleep. Can you tell me when you woke up in this panic? And I was like, oh my god, I take and I was like, my car has broken down on the way. I'm currently stuck somewhere waiting for something, and I was like, Why did I have to go to all this late and explain? Like, and I was like, I'm waiting for this, and then Craig's coming from here and he's at work, but he's been really busy, so I don't think it's just because I fell asleep when I was broken down. Yeah, literally, but that's it's people pleasing, isn't it? It's worrying that that wouldn't be a good enough excuse. How dare you fall asleep? Or it's got anything to do, it's gotta be like something something really big.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, my clutch is falling out of my car. Really, I'm in a hand scarf on your life. I'm really I'm just dying in bed with the rugby boys. In bed with the rugby boys.
SPEAKER_00No, sorry, I wasn't. We'll talk about that in that's another story.
SPEAKER_01So let's talk about now then the guilt of saying no. So when you do pluck up the courage and you do put on your big girl pants and you just say thank you.
SPEAKER_00No, you can't do that. You can just be like, No, I can't do that now. No, I can't do that. No, I can't do that. No, no, that's not for me. I've never said that out. I mean I say it out loud.
SPEAKER_01No, that's not for me.
SPEAKER_00But not of something someone's asked of me. Yeah, but not it like if someone if you say to me like, oh, should we go to um a I don't know, like bun, let's go do a bungee jump, I'd be like, No, that's not for me. Have I ever said that to you? No, you haven't. No. But do you see what I mean? If you said I would be like, oh no, that's not for me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_00Or like to go try something new, like or try something that you're like, actually, like, actually, that's really not for me. You can't just be like, oh no, that's not for me. Oh, can we go to this speed dating? No, that's not for me. Obviously, I'm married, so I'm speed dating.
SPEAKER_01You can take those.
SPEAKER_00That's a really good excuse. That means you don't have a money either.
SPEAKER_01She's ready! Yes, let's go! Speed dating! Speed dating! That's another story.
SPEAKER_00But do you see what I mean? If there's something that someone's like, Oh, can you come and do this with me? Because they want to do it, but actually you don't want to do it, it's okay to be like, No, that's not for me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But I think you know me well enough to not ask me to do things like that. Like, you don't ask me to do the tough murders because I'm not sure. Oh yeah, no, it's not for me. It's not for you. No, I know exactly.
SPEAKER_00But I think we just like But we do feel guilty if we say that.
SPEAKER_01And that's what makes us over-explain and quit these massive stories with all the intricate details that no one asked about.
SPEAKER_00And also, like, even now, when I do say no, I still feel feel a sense of guilt 100%. Like, that doesn't go away. It's just knowing that that's okay and I'm moving on. Like, it's okay to say no, and just reminding when that pops up, when that guilt feeling pops up, and you want to go and message them to be like, Oh, you're my best friend now, you're so amazing. You overcompensate, you overcompensate, and instead of doing that, it's being like, no, like reminding yourself, like it's okay that I said no for myself, like and just reminding yourself that when you go to do those little tropery things we then end up doing.
SPEAKER_01My guilt always makes me like offer them an alternative, yeah. Like, I can't do that for you, but I'll give you this instead. But actually, I didn't owe them anything in the first time. Exactly. Exactly, that's not why I do that, but I think it is kind of like to make myself feel yeah, like I did do something for them, yeah, and so that's okay, it just wasn't what they asked me to do. But again, we don't need to do that, it's okay to just say no, exactly, like yeah, yeah, and like say, like the when the guilt feeling comes up, it still will come up, just being like, that's okay, yeah, like it's okay.
SPEAKER_00I feel a little bit guilty, that's okay, but I chose a me, and that's good. Yeah, you know, move on.
SPEAKER_01I think that's just something that you maybe do you think it's more because of like being parents that it kind of is drummed into us that it's okay to say no to things because we say no to so much. Yeah, I think that's how we fought off these.
SPEAKER_00No, but someone says to you, can you come and I don't know, look after my child for five days? And you're like, Oh god, possibly. I have kids when I know that yeah, I don't know what it is.
SPEAKER_01Like, when does it kick in?
SPEAKER_00Like, because as a child, that we are kind of programmed to become people pleasers, aren't we? Oh, 100%. I think about what our parents said to us like you need to be kind, you need to look after people, you need to behave, you need to it's always like you need to do this to make sure somebody else is okay, and like why I fully get it around like being kind and a hundred percent, but it's also when like you should be bending over backwards for somebody else, and it's like actually, you know, you need to sit and be quiet in this restaurant because of the other people that are around you, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like when you have siblings, it's like you can't be quiet, you can't be noisy now because they're napping. Yeah, that's not my fault. Yeah, it's two o'clock in the afternoon, like do you know what I mean? Yeah, or like all those ideas out of the living room where all of their toys are because they can't touch your stuff, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like, exactly, it's all those little things, like going out places and having to act a certain way because of what other people will think. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Like it's those things that I think are then put into us of like you know, kids should be seen and not heard and all that shit, because that's what we grew up, yeah. Exactly. You everyone should do this because this is how you should all be, and it's like actually not even the teacher can go, so if the teacher can't go, you can't go and talk for very good reasons, but yeah, yeah, and that's probably plays a big part in how we now like behave as adults and worry about trying to do some lots of stuff for other people over and above what we actually want for ourselves.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I know what you mean. I think it's like cool it's difficult then to make your own decision and come to your own conclusion when you spent at least a third of your life being told what the expectations are and what should be happening, and there being negative consequences if they don't happen. And then it's like we automatically assume that if something doesn't happen because someone's told us it needs to, there's going to be a negative consequence for us. Like for not meeting someone else's expectation. Yeah, it's weird, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Do you think you've taken a lot of that into your adult life, or do you think you've kind of recognised it and learned to lead it in the past?
SPEAKER_00I think I took a lot of it into my adult life, and since I started working on myself, which was just after Mickey was born, like I say, when I got to that point of like I need to start realizing what I want in my life and how I want to feel, then I started like it all comes hand in hand. Like when you start working on yourself and growing the confidence inside yourself, all these things naturally start happening. You know, you naturally start thinking about actually what is it that I want, yeah, you know, because this is your life, you know, like you are living your life, they aren't. So what do you want? Because a lot of the people that you're people pleasing probably wouldn't think twice about saying no to something you asked.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely, or asking more of you, exactly, and not getting anything back. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I think it's hard, isn't it? Because I think for me, I'm working on myself as a people pleaser, but then I catch myself saying things to Evan, my little boy, where I'm like, oh, people please shouldn't be. Yeah, oh yeah, because then I'm making him people please.
SPEAKER_00Exactly, yeah. And I notice even like I notice myself doing that, absolutely. But the key thing is you notice it, yeah, and that's what I always say to myself. Like, I notice when I say to my kids, like, shh, there's lots of people like around, like before, and then I'm like, oh no. And like Craig will say to me, he'll be like, they're fine, they're kids, and I'll be like, Yes, no, sorry, like mummy's being silly, you do you, you know, like and I realise I'm doing it, and then I change it, and that's the key thing, that's the best thing that you can do, yeah, is to acknowledge it and then change it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's figuring out, I think, also why you feel that way in that situation. Like, for me, I always catch it if Evan's having like a meltdown or a tantrum in public, exactly, and my initial thing is to go, there's people watching, yeah. You're gonna make everyone else feel uncomfortable. And I'm like, why my initial thing should be why are you acting this way?
SPEAKER_00Like, what's wrong? Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01And sometimes I'll know what's wrong. Yeah, and I bought the wrong X group.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sometimes you have no idea, and there's a deeper thing into it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but my initial reaction is to right, let's try and contain this, yeah, and then we'll figure it out what actually is.
SPEAKER_00Let's worry about what everyone else is thinking before we actually go what's going on, yeah, exactly. But the the key thing, like I say, I I personally think is acknowledging that and realising it. Yeah, you can't do anything if you don't realise it, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But you're doing it, and I think it's again like surrounding yourself with good people because like you're always like, I don't care. Yeah, like if it's not my kids, I don't care, and not in a horrible way that you don't care about everything, yeah. But like I couldn't give to you shit for you screaming or you laughing, like it doesn't like me.
SPEAKER_00That's for you to mean it's not in any danger, it's definitely fine.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, oh god, it's such a balancing act, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and when people are like oh like a child or I don't know, people are like, oh, you can see people making faces when the kids are noisy and stuff like that. It's just reminding yourself that they are only doing that off of what they've learned. Yeah, they have no other idea of how to live than what they've learned, so don't take it personally. This is nothing to do with you as a person, this is them and their upbringing, even when they're 70 years old and doing it. That's their story that they've been told. Yeah, you know, so it's not it's nothing to do with them, it doesn't matter what they think, it doesn't matter what eyes they're you know, they're rolling their eyes at you, it doesn't matter if they actually say anything to you, you know, like you do you, yeah. Figure it out because at the end of the day, you and your child are what most important, not anyone else around you.
SPEAKER_01So true, and often they don't even say anything, so you don't conclude.
SPEAKER_00You make it up in your head, yeah.
SPEAKER_01God, I love our brains. I know crazy. Right, okay, so let's think about then for us, because obviously we've both been working on this, some more successfully than others, but we've both been working on it. What happens when we do start saying no? And we do start thinking about ourselves more than others in certain situations, like putting ourselves first, like what kind of reactions have you had when you said no to people?
SPEAKER_00Uh people get don't like it for sure. Like, some people are like, oh, but blah blah blah blah blah. Some people are like, okay, yeah. Literally, that's that you literally, that's it. There's no reaction, you know? So you're either gonna get someone be like, oh, um and then they might not message you for a few days because they've got the hump. Or you'll get someone that's just like okay, thanks for trying, or yeah, you know, like thanks, you know. It's never what you think it's going to be. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's never gonna be like, oh, you're a bad person, how dare you do that? And elite. I was gonna say, if you have that person, then it is a literal bump and delete. That's they're not worth having in your life for sure, but um a lot of the time it's okay, no problem.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, just thought I'd ask not as bad as you think it's going to be. Yeah, yeah. And how has it made you feel saying no to more things?
SPEAKER_00Oh, so much better. I know now I'm living my best life. Yeah, like hands down, I can literally say I'm loving my life because I know what I want. Yeah, you know, I feel good in my life, I know what I want, what I don't want, so it's great. Like, I won't do anything I don't want to do. Why should I? I love that selfish. Oh, it's not selfish though. This is some people will call it selfish, that's their whatever they want to that's because they're selfish, but that's also okay. It's okay for people to want to brand you as something. Yeah, if people want to brand me as selfish because I know what I want in my life and I'm gonna I know whose priority in my life, call me selfish, yeah. You know, I will put me and my kids first and my close friends and my family. Do you know what I mean? Like I will 100% prioritise them over anything else, so I will say no.
SPEAKER_01It's just ridiculous, isn't it? That like selfish is the word that comes out, but it's actually it's being self-aware, yeah, and like being in self-care, which are positive things, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But people will and that's okay again, that's their story, yeah. That's what they've been told, they've learned that that is absolutely okay. People will have their opinions, they're just opinions, you don't have to take them on board.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's true, it's so true. So more are you gonna start saying no anymore? I'm gonna try. I think my biggest thing is just being able to say no and not have the big elaborate justification. Yeah, 100%. It's not always a lie or an excuse, it's that I have to feel like I really have to explain why I'm saying no, and and it's rather than just saying unfortunately I can't. Full stop.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's like I'm really sorry I can't because of this, this, and this, and this. And I'm gonna check in with you now.
SPEAKER_01But what I will three days and this and this, and then if you need if you need it that litre of blood, come see me, like I'll find it for you. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. It's just and then also feel in mind I can't ask them for help if I need it because I didn't help them when they leave.
SPEAKER_00But then that's when you've know you've got the right or the wrong people in your life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00You know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I think I am gonna Right.
SPEAKER_00Well, shall we do what we're gonna like our small wins? So what we're gonna do. Because this is a really good time.
SPEAKER_01A little test. So we're gonna do this each podcast, aren't we? Yeah, because neither of us are very good at sticking to things. No, I don't think I'm the worst.
SPEAKER_00The worst is great. The worst. So we are gonna stick to them.
SPEAKER_01We are gonna stick to these and we're gonna hold each other accountable because on the next episode of the podcast we are gonna revisit them and see what we do. And I love this. So, small wins. Yeah, I am going to in the next week say no to things. If they proper, I'm not just gonna be a bit of a bitch and be like, I'm not doing it because I'm doing a challenge. Like, can you mammy, can you help me tie my shoes? No. Yeah. There's no reason for it. I'm doing a challenge, no. But if something comes that I don't want to do or it doesn't fit with me, I'm gonna say no without giving an excuse. It's not gonna be a because, yeah, but it's just gonna be I'm really sorry, I can't. I love that. Oh stop, kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss, love you, kiss, love you forever. Front heart, bug emoji, bestie, love the heart for the stars, infinity's gone forever. Oh dear, too far. We take it too. We do, yeah. Too far. So that's gonna be that's gonna be the week. That's the kind of win that I want is that if something comes up and I don't want to do it or it doesn't align with me, I'm gonna say no without explanation. Yes, girl. And if they ask me why.
SPEAKER_00And if you've had if you've listened to this podcast and just says no, do not ask for an explanation, please. Okay, if you are gonna guess what, not just me.
SPEAKER_01I will reply in seven days, being like, I'm sorry that I said that seven days ago, but this was the reason. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm giving it with myself. Okay, I like it. Right, what's your mind because you are not a female laser?
SPEAKER_00Well, this is the good thing, right? It doesn't have to be based around whatever we're talking about. So I'm going to I think I'm gonna book something that's random, something, something new. I'm gonna try something new. Okay, I'm gonna try something new. Love that for you. Yeah, in the next week, I'm gonna try something new.
SPEAKER_01And if you ask me and I don't want to do it, I will say no. There we go! Isn't that perfect? No, this works both ways.
SPEAKER_00It does. This is brilliant. Okay, here we go.
SPEAKER_01Although we because we went panelboarding, didn't we? Exactly. Um, I wanted to say no to that, but I I hadn't booked it for a reason. And then she was like, I'll come help you do the studios. I was like, fine, I'll go. Because at first I can't, I'm doing a party, and you were like, it's an hour after the party finishes. I was like, Well, okay, never mind then. And actually, I really enjoyed it. So I'm glad that you did coax me around to doing that one, and I was a people pleaser in that moment.
SPEAKER_00But sometimes people pleasing's for the good. Yeah. If you're if you benefit from that. Yeah. But if not looking at the if you're trying something new that you know you're stepping out your comfort zone, but the part of you wants to be like, oh, actually, I do want to try that. Yeah. I'm nervous or I'm scared or I'm feeling like that. It was like, oh yeah, you can do that because you're die. Yeah. But then again, you've realized that it's actually something that you wanted to do as well.
SPEAKER_01And I will do it again, 10 years, highly recommend. Um so, okay, so you're gonna book something random, spontaneous. Oh, exciting. And I'm gonna say no to it.
SPEAKER_00Perfect. There we go. Well, until next week's episode, we are done.
SPEAKER_01Feel free to send in your stories and any questions, any little wins that you're having as well. Share your little wins with us. If you said no without explanation and it didn't backfire in your face, let us know. Bye, everyone.