UW Tacoma Ed.D. Director Robin Starr Zape-tah-hol-ah Minthorn (Kiowa Tribe of Oklahoma, Apache, Nez Perce, Umatilla and Assiniboine) recently wrote an article for Higher Education Today where she discussed ways colleges and universities can better meet the needs of its Indigenous students. We'll talk about her recommendations. We'll also discuss a paper Minthorn co-wrote about a theoretical campus tour that provides a fuller understanding of an institution's history. Finally, Minthorn discusses a new agreement between UW Tacoma's School of Education and the Muckleshoot Tribe.
UW Tacoma Ed.D. Director Robin Starr Zape-tah-hol-ah Minthorn (Kiowa Tribe of Oklahoma, Apache, Nez Perce, Umatilla and Assiniboine) recently wrote an article for Higher Education Today where she discussed ways colleges and universities can better meet the needs of its Indigenous students. We'll talk about her recommendations. We'll also discuss a paper Minthorn co-wrote about a theoretical campus tour that provides a fuller understanding of an institution's history. Finally, Minthorn discusses a new agreement between UW Tacoma's School of Education and the Muckleshoot Tribe.
And so those stickers are, um, I'd give to some of my colleagues, um, as I had again from the, from the organization, um, for us to acknowledge that we're on PLO territory, on ancestral lands men. So that is something that I think is really important so that when people walk through my door, they're acknowledging who's then there. They're on
Speaker 2:from UDub, Tacoma. This is pod welcome to pod defiance where we don't lecture, but we do educate. I'm your host Eric Wilson edge sitting in today for Sarah Smith today on the pod indigenizing higher education with UDaB Tacoma's Robin star Zape to Hola Minthorn. Dr Minthorn is the director of the educational leadership doctoral program here at UDaB T. she recently wrote an article about how colleges and universities can better support their indigenous students for the publication higher education. Today we'll talk about the article as well as min Thorne's experience in higher education and her goals for the university's educational leadership doctoral program. Welcome dr Robin star is taped to Hola Minthorn
Speaker 1:two pod defiance. Hi hot. So Robin's able to hold a mentor named[inaudible] today. I wanted to bring you on because you recently wrote an article, so I want to kind of talk about the article that you wrote and then we'll just kind of jump around to other questions we have. So you talk about indigenizing high impact practices. For those folks who don't know what and high impact practices, could you maybe define that and then talk about ways to indigenize those practices? Sure. So high impact practices is basically I'm connected to higher education and I'm recommendations that have been identified by some scholars in connection to what they see that college students need to be connected to in order to have a good college experience. So capstones, internships, undergraduate research experience, like all of these different things, they're very broad and not necessarily tailored to specific populations. And so I'm indigenizing high impact practices is looking at what we should be doing as campuses to respond and serve native students on our campus. So you talk about, I'd like at the bottom, the article, you list some foundation, foundational, excuse me, practices that institutions can support. And there were 12 that you listed, but I'd like to talk about the first two. Sure. Um, the first one would that you're referring to the, examining the narrative and indigenous peoples in the institution's history. So this really was, I'm talking about how institutions of higher education, various campuses and their history relate to, or even if they relate to indigenous peoples and tribes within the area whose land they're occupying. Um, so for instance, at the university of New Mexico where I was previously, if you were to go into the history books, um, that talk about the founding of UNM, founding of the institution, um, they allude to native peoples as first of all, they say that it was barren land. So there was nobody there before. Right. Um, and the other is that they just like briefly mentioned the public communities that were there and connected to that area, but not necessarily that they were, the ones that were occupying, that had connections by ceremonies, had connections by diff in different ways to that land. And so I think it's often a very diluted version, um, in regards to indigenous people. So we, and that recommendation is starting to examine what your institutional narrative is and how you acknowledge the indigenous peoples and, and the historical context in regards to how are we occupy it. And they were able to get, you know, acquire the land, but then also in the contemporary is how are we also then serving. And that kind of relates to the second one. And I'm landing knowledgement about the landing knowledgement I've been to your office a couple times and I know you have something on the, on your outside window into your office. Can you talk about what that is and yeah. Even where, where you got it? Cause I, I haven't, I've started to see them around campus more. You arrive. I'd never, I'd never seen something like that before. Can you talk a little bit about the, sure. Actually it came from my, um, some of my colleagues with the NASPA, the national association of student personnel administrators. Um, there's a, uh, a subgroup called indigenous people's knowledge community, um, where they've been able to really hold the organization accountable to an institutions accountable to start to acknowledge where they live, learn. And are educated and teach on, um, whose lands. So those stickers are, um, I've give to some of my colleagues, um, as I had again from the, from the organization, um, for us to acknowledge that we're on PLO territory, ancestral lands men. So that is something that I think is really important so that when people walk through my door, they're acknowledging who's lend there they're on and where they're coming from. I also, of course, included on my signature line in my email as well because I do think that's important in any way that we can start to acknowledge and, and really be a conscientious of whose land we're occupying to be more responsible to those tribal nations that we should always be responsible to. I want to bounce around to a sort of a question I had later, but yeah, we're mentioning it about the university of New Mexico and you coauthored a paper that talks about campus tourists specifically, um, racist, uh, I think it's called racist and indigenous campus tumors that may get the title wrong. I wonder if you could talk about that research paper and kind of walk us through the findings you had there and just let people know more about it. Okay, sure. And just to clarify, it's a conceptual, um, case study piece. And so it is still a research in some ways. Um, but one of the things as I mentioned before is that, um, in my work, um, at the university of New Mexico, whereas a previously a faculty member, I also became engaged and the advisor for Kiva club, which is one of the oldest native student organizations in the country, but also the oldest one on campus. It was founded in 1952 based on social activist movement and New Mexico and the Southwest and within the area. Um, and so, and connection to that, um, I also then became supportive of the students who are leading a movement on campus to decolonize and indigenize the campus and what was going on there. And so part of that, there was a racist presidential still that was founded in 1969 by that current president where it glorified and highlighted a can keys to door in a frontiersman on the sill. And so, um, the students started a movement along with Kiva club with the red nation, which is a, uh, grassroots organization. Community organization started a campaign to abolish the racist sill at UNM. And so I was supporting the students in that, um, because that required a lot of intentional planning and coordination, not only with them but also with the organizations I was a part of. Cause I was also on the diversity council for the provost office and then also holding our diversity person accountable. So anyways, all of this is interconnected because I was a part of that groundwork and working with the students that I also thought it was really important for us to be able to share that with the broader scholarship communities. So one of the ways that me and my colleague, Dr. Christine Nelson are able to frame that article was, um, and going through like a campus tour that we would go through on like any campus, you know, admissions people, wanna, um, students and, um, staff members want to highlight the campus. And what's the best thing about the campus? This is the place you go for this. This is the president's office. But in indigenizing it, and also noting where there's racism on campus. That's how he wanted to give that tour through the article. And so for instance, we went, we went to the president's office and talked about in our virtual like narrative tour and talked about the racist. So, but we also talked about how Kiva club, one of their previous presidents was killed in Gallup, New Mexico. And how that's all connected because he was protesting a board of Regent member who is, um, selling alcohol to native people on the Navajo reservation. And so those are the things that I think are not always told right in our institutional history. Um, and then we also went to a dorm where, so there's dorms at the university of New Mexico, um, that have our name, dr can Keystone doors is a Cornetto dorm on yacht day dorm on that day was a conquistador who cut off the feet of native people, public people and the history of New Mexico. But then closely associated to those are tribes. So there's Laguna dorm, uh, so there's other dorms that are connected and named after Pablos. But again, when you are bringing dorms that are named after colonizers and then dorms that are named after tribes and pub lows, there isn't obviously a connection. Right. And so one of the things that I think that UNM has been very good about is um, really honoring and glorifying the colonizers history. Um, but of course now there have been steps because of that movement by Kiva club in the red nation. They have Alyssa demands that now the race is still is being, has been abolished and suspended and there is a replacement still that's actually going to be, has been voted on. And I think we'll be named in the next month or two. And so that's some of the movement. They also took three years to replace Columbus day with indigenous people's day. And so that was just a lot of movement, um, being done. And then also, um, there's other things that again, institutionally that needs to change at the university, but we wanted to highlight that through a narrative of a campus tour. I don't know if that answers your question. That's kind of alluding to what we were trying to come across and share because people can relate to an admissions tour, but maybe not really understand like how sometimes when we're giving commonplace admissions tours, sometimes we're glossing over some of the rural institutional history that's there. And of course because you want people to come to your campus. But, but the reality is is that we also need to tell our students like what is actually has actually taken place on our history and in our campus.
Speaker 2:And maybe this is outside of your experience, but is that sort of practice where maybe buildings on camp are, are named after sort of conky store? Is that a fairly common thing?
Speaker 1:Yes. So, um, there are various campuses who have started to rename buildings and places on campus because they have been named after colonizers and S are settlers. Um, and so one of the things that I think has, there has been a movement to start to look at naming. So if we actually go like, I don't know if you've ever, I mean, you may have not ever wanted to look at this, but how we name buildings on campus, there's usually a naming, building policy and the process for all of that. Um, and so there's also should now be like a renaming, building policy of like really you're examining why we have chosen as institution to honor the name of this person or that place. Um, and how have we done so in a way that really acknowledges so some people have started to push for, if we keep those names, we also need to tell the real history of that and have like, uh, a plaque or something that really tells that history. So people are aware of why that is. But other people have definitely pushed to rename those buildings that would really honor like the actual people of that territory or the experiences of other those communities around the area. And so that's something that has also been, um, taken into place. Some
Speaker 2:returning to your piece, you talk about the ways the colleges and institutions can better support either students who are there or those who are thinking about coming. And this question might be a little muddled, but we'll get through it. I wonder in, in what ways, in your opinion to youth do like the stereotypes and misconception, uh, that maybe universities have about, uh, indigenous peoples. Is that impact how, um, maybe they market to them or how they interact with them once they're either in the process of applying or when they have arrived at, did those play a role? I definitely
Speaker 1:think so. I think if we don't have staff or campus administrators or are there individuals a aware and able to work with native students? I think one of the things is that there's probably a stereotype that all native students are the same, which we know is not the case, right? Like just not all white students are the same. Not all Teaneck students are the same. Everybody has their own experience. And especially with tribes. Um, within this area, you know, we have 27, 29 tribes here in the state of Washington and just nationally we have about 563 federally recognized tribes in the United States. And so a lot of people don't always want acknowledge that there's that unique history and narrative. And so I think that's really important that professionals really understand that. But also like there's this other common stereotypes that all native students are quiet. They all want to sit in the back of the classroom, but they all have free, I'm free scholarship funding so they can go to school for free. So those, um, all native communities or students are alcoholics and all of these other misconceptions that I think are either filtered through staff or filtered through students that are in their classes. And so I think that's something that's really important that we start to work on how we dismantle those stereotypes and misconceptions. Because obviously there's a reason why there's alcoholism in native communities because that was intentionally done by the government, intentionally done by the U S military. Um, so those are things that have been put in place. It wasn't something that just happened and that's a part of who we are. It was intentionally done as a part of the simulation in genocide project by the United States. And so those are the things that we need to be really articulating in that. And then also that not all students have a native students have, um, free funding to go to college. Not all tribes have access to funding to Foley's, um, fund their students, but they may be able to have partial scholarships. Um, and also not all native students aren't federal enrolled in a federally recognized tribe because of blood quantum and all of these other things that are connected to indigenous communities that we may not really understand or know is that just because somebody says they're native, it doesn't mean that they may be like enrolled in a tribe. And that's because of sometimes the policies of that tribe and having like the blood quantum requirement and so, so anyways, those are just a little bit experiences and I think it's really just us being open to understanding and acknowledging what our students are bringing with them when they come through the doors.
Speaker 2:In terms of, um, nationally, um, in terms of the numbers of indigenous students that are enrolled in college, like is that number increasing? Is it decreasing? Is it the same
Speaker 1:fluctuating? Um, we still are about 1% of the whole student and population. And then for us, as you know, I'm here in Washington at the university of Washington and we still, I think are reflecting that percentage, right? Especially at UDaB Tacoma more I think between one and 2% of our native student population on campus, which is actually a little bit better than the other campuses because of our diversity that we do have and representation we have at UDaB Tacoma. Um, but I think nationally we are seeing that's kind of, I think it's kind of um, flatlining a little bit. Like it's remaining the same but it's not increasing. And so I think that's one of the things that we are trying to work hard as indigenous scholars in higher education but also professionals in higher ed. Like how do we start to prepare students, how are we starting to create this research and try to help educate other people but also to start creating those spaces so our students feel like they have a place when they come to campus that's going to be safe for them, but they'll also honor who they are.
Speaker 3:[inaudible]
Speaker 2:let's take a break from our conversation with dr Minthorn to talk about UDaB Tacoma's school of education, looking to become a teacher or an administrator. The school of education offers a variety of options, including K through eight E L L certification, a master of education for practicing educators and the educational leadership doctoral program. Just to name a few to see a list of classes or look into scholarship options. Simply visit the UDaB Tacoma website and type school of education into the search bar.
Speaker 3:[inaudible].
Speaker 1:So let's talk about the word pipeline. Sure. So upon coming to the Northwest, I'm not really sure why, um, in my first, even my first couple of weeks here at the university, I'm in my first month, I have probably heard people use the term pipeline more than I have ever in my whole life. And I'm really not sure why that is such a prominent term here in this area. Um, and it's, it was at UDaB Seattle you have to in or orientation and um, and interactions just yesterday, uh, I was mentioning this, but the reason that pipeline is really a problematic term is that it really is a connotation for indigenous communities connected to the extracting extractive industry that has really, um, dismantled and impacted in a negative way our tribal communities. And so when we talk about pipeline, people utilize that as a term of like access to higher education, the school to prison pipeline and all these other ways of connecting the pipeline. But what pipeline represents oil being extracted from land or resource being extracted from land that has a sacred and ceremonial connection for tribal people. And so when we talk about taking something that's ceremonial to make it, to take it to somewhere else that makes it better, it really has not, does not make a good connection. And I, so I think there's other terms that can be utilized like a pathway, um, a connector, you know, there's other terms that people can be creative and utilizing. So I would just like to ask if people can start to think about how they're utilizing the term pipeline. Um, and they're commonplace, you know, everyday interactions in ways that we can utilize more appropriate terms like pathways. Because every time we think about pipeline, honestly I think about the NoDAPL standing rock movement and where people were giving their lives and gave some of them, gave their own livelihood or health, um, to be able to stand up against the pipeline being built. And though people said that nothing would happen, that it would all be safely done. We do know that now the pipeline has leaked. And so those are other things and we have relatives up North who are also pushing against, you know, a pipeline of pushing against an extractive industries. And so I just would like to ask people to consider how to re revisit term and utilize another term in a way that would be more responsive to indigenous communities and native students as well. And, and would really make me happy. Let's talk about your experience as a student in higher ed. I know you had to, you face some obstacles and you overcame them. So I just, I'd like to talk about what that was like for you and how you ended up here as a, as a person with a PhD who works in higher education. Yeah. Um, so I share this, um, and many places, but I, I don't mind telling all of my students is because I think it's important. I'm a first generation college graduate. Um, both of my parents went to high school is when it was an Institute, so it had like a certificate in those types of things. So they went there, but they didn't receive a four year degree going into college as a freshman at the university of Oklahoma. I, um, I was actually a good high school student, but I didn't realize what it took in college to be able to be a good college student. And, um, and so I think that was one of the things that along with the social life of course, and that you also face in college. So I think that was a mixture of all of that and the preparation and not having probably like the support that I needed to have. And like navigating all of that was really, um, something that took place. And so at the end of my freshman year, I was on academic probation with a 1.97 GPA. And so, um, I really have had to spend that summer after my freshman year deciding whether I was going to return to college or stop out or drop out, um, and by decided to continue for it and just really start to be more disciplined, find the support on campus. Um, but one of the things in that whole process was that I wanted to create support systems for other native students that were coming behind me and that was really important. Um, and so that, I've mentioned this before in other places, but helping to co-found, uh, after I myself got myself off of academic probation with that support, um, was then able to create a peer mentoring native American, uh, native American peer mentoring program called retaining American Indians now for native students at the university of Oklahoma with nine other native students. I'm was able to create that. And then that was, became a peer mentoring student initiated program on campus. Um, and then also co-fund at a native American sorority, a gamma Delta PI incorporated. Um, which again was another place of giving native women support on campus. And I think that was really important. So I think both of those experiences of like being a student leader on campus, that was my motivation to continue and do good. Because I knew I was like, I don't say a role model, but I was what people might have been looking to in some ways. But I still graduated the 2.77 so not like I had like a 3.5 or anything. Um, and so that's when, you know, again, my beginning of my undergraduate was not great. So then even with my master's, I wasn't even thinking about graduate school when I was about to graduate. And so I was like, well what can I even do? Cause I have a 2.77 can I even go to graduate school? And there was a graduate program on campus that you could get in with conditional if you didn't have her 3.0 because usually the requirements that 3.0 grade point average and I was able to get in on conditional admission. So I had to have a 3.0 or above in my master's program my first two semesters. So that's how I got into graduate school, was on conditional admission. And of course, thankfully I was able to have a 4.0 my whole masters and I got a second master's with another 4.0 later on that was in student affairs in higher education. And so I became passionate about working with native students and about working in higher education. And so then that led to my, um, doctoral degree.
Speaker 2:You mentioned something that I want to, um, follow up on. You mentioned something about you created a sorority and there's something and you mentioned about, um, it's like a space for, uh, for native women especially. I wonder if you talk more about that, about making that space for native women in higher education.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so native women are, um, in our communities, native women have the higher, uh, enrollment in higher education. So we're more representative and higher ed. So that means that we have, depending on the campus, it would be between 60 to 69% of native women enrolled compared to like native men on campus. And so there really is a unnecessary need for native women to find a place in, um, need that support. And so for my experience, I actually was a part of a Latina sorority before I became a cofounder of a, um, gammadelta PI. Um, and I appreciated my participation connecting to that sorority. It really wasn't reflective of my culture and who I was. And so me and another, um, friend ended up dropping out of that sorority and then we were able to find some other girls, um, women who are interested in creating this native sorority on campus that reflected our values, reflected our culture and our experience. And so we're able to create that on campus. And so of course that took like a year to create and planning and all this time, uh, but it was really important to have that space on campus. And now that space has been in place for over 18 years at the university of Oklahoma and now is on other campuses in the Southwest, um, middle, middle of the United States area. Um, so I really think that's a Testament to the need of it. There are other Neato sororities too as well, and also are there native American fraternities. So, um, and I think there is also that connotation of what we think sorority in Greek life is, um, for like a mainstream, right? We're not the kind that have like these crazy cake parties. We don't have our own house and all these other things that are attributed to like the stereotype of what Greek life is. Um, but really we try to center around our culture and who we are as native women and our communities. Um, and so I think that's been the strength of that. And that's why we have from our, our sorority women who are lawyers, the women who are doctors and women who are doing all these things because they were able to have that support system that was created for them.
Speaker 2:So you're now at UDaB Tacoma
Speaker 1:and you arrived last summer, I believe. August 16th was my first day. Yes.
Speaker 2:Um, and you are the director of the educational leadership doctoral program, which is currently the only doctoral program at UDaB Tacoma. Can you talk more about what that program is and sort of what you're hoping to do, uh, in terms of like goals, like what you're, what you're hoping to achieve?
Speaker 1:Sure. Um, so yeah, the doctoral program, um, has been in place since about 2013. We're in our third cohort of doctoral students and really what we're hoping to achieve. So acknowledging that we've had previous directors that have done some really good work in getting it created cause that's a lot of work. Um, and also, so the goal for that I have is to build on that foundation that was created and expand it and its center and what we have seen as our strength as we've gone through program review recently over this last quarter. Um, and really tried to start instituting change that will help, um, center like a social justice and critical critical approach to, um, education. And so that's something that we are definitely trying to do. I'm not only like me as an individual, but the EDD council and others who have been, uh, connected to our program. And so we definitely want to make sure that we're honoring that as well and really making sure that it's clearly articulate, articulated, and visible within what we're doing within the EDD program. And so I'm also happy to say that we also accepted our fourth cohort of EDD students last week. And so we have 23 doctoral students who have been accepted to start, um, coming this coming summer of 2020. Um, and then of course with our Muckleshoot partnership that will be in place soon. We also will have a tribal based, um, doctoral cohort at Muckleshoot tribe at the Muckleshoot tribal college.
Speaker 2:Can you talk more about your connection with the Muckleshoot cause I know that I've seen your posts on social media and I've been wanting to ask you about it. So now I feel this is the perfect time to ask about it.
Speaker 1:So again, I would like, you know, like to acknowledge that I'm a guest on this land and even though I do have connections to Oregon tribes and then my husband is Yakima, I'm from here in Washington. Um, that it was really important that I not be the one to approach tribes and learn really my first year I feel like I'm learning about the tribes and learning about the community in general, but also the tribal communities in the native community here. Um, but I was contacted by Muckleshoot tribal college in late August, early September about our, our doctoral program. And so I offered to go meet with them. We started meeting with them and they just wanted to learn about our program. Over the course of the last almost six months, we've had probably 15 to 20 meetings with Muckleshoot tribe and really just trying to figure out what is it that you would like to have because they were looking for graduate programs to bring to their campus or to their building to provide access to higher education for their Muckleshoot tribal members. And so working with Denise, bill and Amy Maharaj and then Ashley Walker who's in our EDD advisor in our, we've been able to work together collectively to be able to negotiate what this should look like and really make it indigenous focus and based, um, in our approaches. And so that's something that we are trying to do now and we have, uh, approved MOU, MOA from the UDaB to come aside and also from the Muckleshoot tribe site as well. And so now we can move forward and start promoting it and sharing it with the communities. Um, they are definitely working doing information sessions at Muckleshoot tribal college, um, next week and then April. And then we'll also be sharing that information broadly by social media and also, um, by email and also like making you know, connections. However we can just share it out there. But our goal is that it would be this program specifically and cohort, we'd be indigenous focused and based so that it's created for native students and taught by native faculty. But also we are welcoming to non indigenous people who have worked with tribal communities that have that understanding. But also that desire to continue to work with tribes and with the native communities as well. So maybe this is the part you're working out still, but this sounds like it'll all be hosted over at Muckleshoot facility. Yes. You'd have to call my faculty go there or, yes. Okay. Yeah. So we will make it, it's place based. So we will be traveling to their campus to go and deliver the classes on Saturdays and Sundays, once a month, starting at the end of June. And so it'll be this like three year program that we have here on campus, but it will be offered at Muckleshoot tribal college on tribal lands. So for folks who don't know what educational leadership is, is that, is that for folks who want to become administrators? Like what does the work look like within the degree program? So our EDD program is actually structured to be interdisciplinary in regards to, um, being open to havingK through 12, u m, current administrators o r those w ho a re pursuing administration or leadership positions w ith, whether it's within a program administrator capacity or a superintendent. A nd we also are, u m, higher education. So that means like we have individuals who are working within community colleges, universities and other aspects of higher education also within the community. So we also have individuals who are a part of our program who are community based organizations, nonprofit organizations who are working with OSBI and other places at the state level. Also with a military base. U m, we have people who are working in military education. A nd then we also have individuals with our nursing and h ealthcare leadership c hecks. So we have i ndividuals who are doing like nursing faculty and nursing instructors who a re w anting to come and be a part of our program because they have a, a desire to want to become a nursing faculty or try to be connected in that regard, whether it's in t he nursing leadership position within a college or a community, or even maybe within the state level. So, and I feel remiss, I didn't ask you this earlier, like at the beginning, I know it's important to you to identify the tribes you're associated with. What tribes are you associated that is okay. I did say my, a a small greenie in my tribal language, which is Kyla. Um, so I'm a citizen of the Cairo tribe of Oklahoma, but I'm also a descendant of the Apache Yuma Tila nest person isn't a bunch of times as well. Okay. And do you, you live out here now, but do you still have family back out in Oklahoma in that area over there? Yes. So my mom's side of the family, most of them live in Oklahoma. And then my dad's side of the family, most of them live in Oregon on the Umatilla reservation, which is about four and a half hours from here. So, because we were talking about this earlier, you been here since August and you have survived your first Pacific Northwest winter where the sun doesn't come out forever. How was that for you? It actually wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be. Um, it was a little harder, the rain part of it, but, um, I know there will still be rainy days coming, but, um, but it's really nice to have the sun out. And I, I, I missed the sunsets in New Mexico. Um, but I am grateful that we have the sun now, but it also, I, I always kept it in the back of my mind, the beautiful summer that we will have, because when we came here August 16th I was like, wow, it's in the 80s here. And whereas like, you know, in Oklahoma, New Mexico, it's in the upper nineties and hundreds. So I'm happy to be here and be able to enjoy the full season now. Well, dr Robin star Zape to Hola Minthorn thank you for coming today. Gotcha.
Speaker 4:Thank you to our guests and thank you for listening. Be sure to like and subscribe. You can find us on Spotify, Google podcasts, PocketCasts, Stitcher and Apple podcasts.