Talking Architecture & Design

Episode 43: Caroma's Dr. Peter Sweatman talks toilet design, water usage, automation and why toilet paper is on the way out

March 27, 2020 Architecture & Design Season 3 Episode 43
Talking Architecture & Design
Episode 43: Caroma's Dr. Peter Sweatman talks toilet design, water usage, automation and why toilet paper is on the way out
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Talking Architecture & Design
Episode 43: Caroma's Dr. Peter Sweatman talks toilet design, water usage, automation and why toilet paper is on the way out
Mar 27, 2020 Season 3 Episode 43
Architecture & Design

Dr Peter Sweatman graduated with first class honours in Industrial Design from the University of Canberra Peter started work with Caroma R&D on research to launch the first generation of Smart Flush toilets to the market and is currently completing a PhD in user centred bathroom design for older people at UNSW Built Environment. 

He talks about creating a new class of bathroom that works as an integrated space that can also be tailored and adapted to individuals to provide convenience, comfort and safety.

Show Notes Transcript

Dr Peter Sweatman graduated with first class honours in Industrial Design from the University of Canberra Peter started work with Caroma R&D on research to launch the first generation of Smart Flush toilets to the market and is currently completing a PhD in user centred bathroom design for older people at UNSW Built Environment. 

He talks about creating a new class of bathroom that works as an integrated space that can also be tailored and adapted to individuals to provide convenience, comfort and safety.

Speaker 1:

[inaudible] .

Speaker 2:

Welcome to talking architecture and design. My name is Brian homiletic and today we have in our studio dr Peter Swetman from PIR Roma , our company well known to most if not nearly all Australians mainly um, for their toilet and bathroom designs. Um, which should go back quite a few decades from more from what I know. Dr Peter Swetman graduated with first-class honors in industrial design from the university of Canberra wherein he started work with Caroma R and D in research to launch the first generation of smart flush toilets to the market. Since then, he has worked at prime and various design and research focused roles along the way, getting a master's of animation from UTS with their final project film appearing at the Melbourne international animation festival, but it has recently completed a PhD and you use a centered bathroom designed for all the people at new universities as well as the built environment through co-design workshops, programs and laboratory based design investigations. The research explored individual preferences and seeks to refine parameters to provide optimal solutions. The goal is to create bathrooms that work as integrated spaces that can be tiled and adapted to individuals to provide convenience, comfort, and safety. Wow . That was a mouthful. So welcome Peter to our small and dare I say, cozy little podcast studio.

Speaker 3:

Thank you. It's nice to be here. It is a cozy little, you know , you've got here.

Speaker 2:

Okay. So , um, the , uh , I'm going to ask you the question. What brought you to, dare I say the field of toilet research for want of a better term? Is that, is that the correct term by the way?

Speaker 3:

Um, probably not, isn't it? Probably not. We'd tend not to. We tend to think of bathrooms as a, as a complete space made up of a number of different products. Um, basically came into it. So , uh , being the alpha offered the opportunity to work with dr Steve Cummings on a research project straight out of university. Um, and that was looking at how we could reduce water flushing volumes , uh, in toilets . So it was a sustainability focus and sustainability focus that , um, had an Oz industry funded , uh, approach and um, uh, it, it built on the work that saved Cummings had been doing, you know, for 20 years at that time. Um , looking through the development of jewel flash, reducing flushing volumes and just looking at how we could bring those volumes down. Uh , another level. So it was actually, you know, once you get over the fact that you waking on toilet , it's quite an interesting area. It's it toilets. You're at the um, you know, the junction of a number of different kind of spheres of the built environment. So does it big , you know, user interface aspect of it. There's usability aspects of it comfort. Um, and then it connects to a complex plumbing system, which, you know, keeps us healthy, capes , um, keeps our environment clean and um, also is connected to the water supply , uh, infrastructure side. That obviously is, you know , a key part of sustainability is minimizing the amount of water that we are consuming day to day. So , um , just looking at the water consumption aspect of it, it's, it , it's great if you can reduce the amount of, or is it a resource that you're using while not affecting anything that , uh, uh, really affects people's day to day lives if you're doing it well, they shouldn't even notice that they're using less water. And that's something that we try to do in all the bathroom products that we work with.

Speaker 2:

Something tells me this, this podcast is going to be full of metaphors and double entendres all the way through. I was going to say the novelty wears off. I'm sure. I'm sure you've heard them all flushed with success. You know, that was, that was the title of one of my um , articles on toilets. But let's not go there yet . Um, you know, our ironically toilets , um, have been, well everything associated with towards that has been in the news quite recently. Quite a lot, hasn't it? Um, we , you and I spoke about this off air a bit. Um, it's a topic. It is a topic , uh , which brings to mind a television show us all on SPS . Only few months ago and it was about how toilets work first. Uh, invent NAWBO invented I guess a flushing tool in Manchester wasn't not um,

Speaker 3:

yeah, one of the industrial Heartland suburb areas of the UK. Yeah. The um , the toilet is way now. It kinda came about in the middle of the eye of the nonsense

Speaker 2:

century century. The trend and something that you mentioned, which is really interesting. It's, it's, there is, there is a obviously a direct link to human hygiene and health. There was part of that program and if correct me if I'm , well I'll try and I'll try and remember it correctly because I'm, I may be getting a bit confused, but they didn't go on to say that the toilet actually will, the flushing toilet, that the sewers and all the plumbing associated with them , um, basically increased people's longevity.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Uh , it's been said that the sanitation system has saved more lives than the whole of , uh, the medical profession. Um, so just through distancing people from waste in built up areas , uh, it is reduced increased lifespans and um, you know, the prevalence of disease hugely and unmanned . It's something that still affects , uh, the developing world. So , um, there's, you know, numerous initiatives, you know , I founded by bill Gates and people like that to improve sanitation, to improve lives, lengthen lives , uh , around the whole world. So , um, it's , uh , it's almost like it's an ongoing project. Okay . Well, okay, so in light of the current crisis we have with Corona virus and humble toilet playing a huge role in public sanitation and safety, as we've said, could , um, we say then , you know, I think you've just said it, but that is one of the pillars of, of the the band or be advancement of, of the modern, of modern industrial society, I guess. Uh , I've read a few cultural things where , um, there's, you know, strong emotional connections with being able to use the toilet, being toilet trained. Um, uh, one of the first things people complain about if they're going camping for the first time is, will I not have access to a flushing toilet? I'm not in civilization anymore. If I can't, you know, flush it away with a clean rush of water and not think about any further being. Um, if you suddenly closer to you your waist , yeah. You know, you're away from symbolic civilization. So, interesting. Yeah. I've got a feeling that the , uh, the current enthusiasm for toilet paper and paper and in the futures tying into some something that , you know, civilization collapses, something to do with the toilet will be a big part of it . I don't know . Interesting. Okay .

Speaker 1:

[inaudible]

Speaker 3:

okay. So let's, let's look forward rather than backwards. Um, what are some of the latest designs and innovations in toilet design technology , um , that we may in Australia be seeing soon in the built environment? Um, or that you can talk about? Yeah, well, I don't wanna talk too much about in the distant future, but just some current things that, that have we have done recently is , um, and it's kinda follows on the direction of a toilet. Innovation generally is , um, well we would just flush volumes in the LHA thousands or mid two thousands down to four and a half, three layers from six 30 to four and a half, three. Um, so that's six lighters full flash run and yeah, four and a half full flash. And in 30 later half watch. And actually the don't complicate it too much, but the half, but the standard was a bit tightened so that it was , uh , effectively lower flush volume overall than previously. Yeah . So why would , I mean [inaudible] would be the dummies question, but one was the original flush, so, so high. Was there a need for that in terms of the design of the plumbing will , um, yeah, when there's two different aspects of flash performance, really those , the clearing of Weiss from the ball and then there's clearing of Weiss through the plumbing system. So , um, you know, possibly it was myths or weaknesses in , uh, LA plumbing design that meant that people felt like you needed to have 11 liters or whatever to, to move the waste through the building and through the entire plumbing system. So maybe that was excessive for clearing the ball. But , um, there were , uh, there was a perception that that needed to carry the waste. I don't know how far distance 11 layers will actually carry waste. But , um, uh, that aspect of it was probably the first area that we realized that , uh, you didn't need quite so much volume to do that, especially when , uh, you know, what does it four out of five times, it's on the liquid wise or perhaps a little bit of paper that you flushing down. So, you know, the initial wave was reducing the , um, the amount used for the liquid waste number ones. And um, from there , uh, through a better understanding of how building drainage worked, we could reduce plush volumes again and then looking at the pan. Uh, so the actual toilet pile , looking at how through better design of the valves, the interior surfaces of the ball , the flushing room , all of those aspects to optimize those to clear waste from the pan with enough water behind it so that the waste gets out early and there's enough water behind it to push it through the building. Um, and uh, yes, I, I'll save Cummings did some big work in , uh, making sure that the building drainage system will work with those flush volumes. So , uh , there's no issues with , um, yeah, the performance of the whole system. Okay .

Speaker 2:

Let's talk about sustainability cause what you just mentioned has a huge impact. Sustainability doesn't it ? A lot of people and there's a lot of toilets. Um , so you know, you could say one toilet per person, let's say almost that's a lot of toilets in the world. So the issue of water usage for toilet flushing, you know , has become any , shoot I think more and more so in Australia when it comes to my own water resources. Um, is there anything that still, I mean, I, you've , you've done the half flush and we were talking about, you know , lowering that, but is there anything that can still be done to lower domestic water usage and is it time that we looked at perhaps new technologies?

Speaker 3:

Uh, well the , we are continuing to optimize the amount of water used in conventional flushing system . So using toilets that we're familiar with, there are ways of using less water and having a more mechanical or maybe vacuum assisted , uh, approach. But , um, obviously there are issues there with , um, user acceptance of that. If you start having something that's people are not used to, there's , you know , potential problems there. Um, the , there's definitely potential for that. But also you talked about the number of toilets that are out there. We're looking at existing infrastructure that they're connecting to. If you suddenly changing , um, the , the system that it's connecting to , um, that presents more problems for compatibility , uh , of, of a change being able to work with existing stock, existing stock of built buildings and installations. It's much M and a overall sense . It's much easier to improve the existing technology as long as it interfaces with [inaudible] infrastructure. So , um, you know , maybe it's an area way incremental changes is a good way to do it. Um, but you know, there are all sorts of innovative ways that people are looking at improving. Um, you know, I weigh what is used and the quality of water that is used for flushing. And , um, uh, that can potentially a fairly niche aspects of it when we're looking at , um, the whole built environment. Yeah. Average household, average building , um, way if you can improve, you know , those large stocks of, of users and installations, then that potentially is a, is a better direction to go. So , um, it's obviously a big challenging area and um, yeah, the more that the more work that goes into it, the better in eventual outcomes. Um,

Speaker 2:

interesting. So you mentioned the current news on toilet paper, which, which then I want to tie into what you just said. People have mentioned and I've noticed in Fort wall comments too , two new news stories, whatnot. Um, the issue of , um, but dyes and other types of things that I'm , you know, but I'm not particularly familiar with, but , um, is, does a bit die the use of a diamond main , the less use of water overall or more?

Speaker 3:

Um, I would say less interestingly. Um , yeah, some of the , uh, first sort of research that we, that we did is the , um, in reducing flush , uh , water consumption is doing testing in the lab with , um, stimulated solids and pipe. Uh , so there's actually, I um , Australian standard PO , which is made out both , um, it's made opposite . Um , it uh , yeah, it doesn't cover the full range of the vision pistol chat . Um, yeah. That, that would need some uh , imagination to fully represent each of those media. But , um, the Australian standard wine is made up of a sausage skin filled with water with a couple of O-rings around it and a finger bandage that runs over the outside. Yeah. So it's if you, if you handle one, it's got a real turd wa light quality. It's really quiet, but leave a little bit, but it does hold up to repeated testing. So , um, when you load the test toilet up with, with those, you can actually , uh, flush that with , um , without all that much. Uh, what are the , that that aspect of, of the , uh, the flush load is quite easy that the one that really presents difficulties, toilet paper because , uh , it soaks up the water, it's quite heavy, it falls apart or it doesn't fall apart in the drain line. It drags on the sides quite a lot. So yeah, toilet paper is probably the harder part of the flashlight then let's say . Yeah , like a , I don't know if you've done any work on this in particular, but um , potentially if the flashlight has less toilet paper on no toilet paper for the use of Bay is that could be a way of reducing plush consumption. Possibly. You could, you know, use a hot flash and that it do the job. Um, I don't know about the dilution qualities that you'll get in that Kai spot. Yeah . In terms of what you've probably would have seen the news articles about flushable wipes causing all sorts of trouble building systems all through last year at the top of, of why it's not if it's not great to have in the system. So , um, yeah, maybe by reducing the need for toilet paper , we could not only have safer trips to the shops but , um, have low water consumption. It's them and it's a behavioral change. Um, and just around the world, the use of Bay I toilet seats is increasing. Um, it is increasing. Yeah. Yeah. And through the work that , uh, mainly the hygiene aspect of it and also there's more hygiene . It's , it's more hygienic and um, this is being normalized cause it's a bit of an unusual thing to be exposed to. But once you're used to it is like in the research I did in with older Australians at USW , um, there were two participants that came into the lab that had beta toilets and they raved about them. They said they were the best thing that they'd experienced in the bathroom for a long time. Um, because , uh , his abuse in hygiene and, and a number of things like that. So , um, yeah, it's something that is, I think is going to increase in Australia. There's, there's issues at the moment with , uh, compatibility with standards and , um, I think we need to [inaudible] some more standards work to do before we really , uh, happy that because it's the interface of, you know, the wa the drinking water supply, it's quite close to the rod . Okay . And it'll say electrical issues as well. So that's something that , um, down the track, I think we'll , once that's resolved, I think there's potential for greater exposure, greater use of those technologies in Australia. Um, yeah, but not a sudden process.

Speaker 1:

[inaudible] I think

Speaker 3:

good design comes from top down approaches. Um, I think it involves, I think gotta be close. You've gotta be talking with people that are doing things. You've got to be experiencing things you've got to be hands on. Um, you've got to , uh, you know, feel, be working in the space where these products are actually going to exist. Um, rather than theorizing about it and, and, and bringing down something that, that you think should work. Definitely read up as much as you can and come up with ideas independently. But the, it really needs to be hands on and in there before you really understand what you're doing. Okay. So testing, prototyping, all that good stuff. Okay. So it's , it's good old fashioned R and. D. yeah, I think so. I think that's where the best stuff comes from. That's the , that's the more fun part of things. And that's where, you know, sometimes you find yourself thinking about something , you say it'll work and then once it's in a physical form or it's up against real people, you realize that maybe it's not, not the right way to go or it's not as complex as you think or you know, it's a good way of working through myths and preconceptions and yeah, and working with people is really the best way to prove things. Um, see how things actually work. And yeah, I think that's, that's the foundation of good design. Can you tell me about the lube wheel program at Caroma? All right. So this is , um, basically our reorienting of , uh, how we , uh, design and, and promote products for , um, people that need extra help in the bathroom or extra support in the bathroom. So that age , care or disability or it's really, we're trying to keep it quite loose because you know, it's a hard area to, to pin down and no one wants to be labeled as having a particular need or whatever. So we're , um, obviously they do support , uh, older people , um, people with disabilities , um, anyone that needs it. But it kind of , uh, for me it grew out of the work that we did , uh, with you and SW , um , built environment. It was a project led by , um , professor Katherine bridge where we , um, it's quite , it was an IRC funded project and quite a, a large undertaking. And that involved a , um, a large scow , a mile out survey of Australians , um, aged over 60, and it looked at their experiences in the bathroom , uh, their opinions about the bathroom as quite broad in its approach. Um, we followed that up with interviews and , um, so 80 telephone interviews and then the , the part that I was most involved with was working in the, in the, what we call the livability lab with all the people side . That's where we had the mean. Um, it sort of had a mixed method approach where , uh , it was , uh, asking them questions, collecting sort of interview data, but also having them interact with the physical space of the simulated bathroom. So we used motion to record how they moved, but importantly, we gave them control over configuring the environment. So changing toilet height, which I think we spoke about and um, and positioning grab brows and things like that. Okay . So , um, and then also we had a co-design process where we worked with a group of older people to , um, really just allow them to design their ideal bathroom. So , um, we, they were quiet . We , we sort of had going into the process, had some misconceptions that we thought people, you know, older people wouldn't be interested in technology or wouldn't be interested in, in change in that area. But when , uh, you , we took them through the process of understanding problems that they had or things that they would like better, they naturally looked at , uh, at technological or redesigning , um, fixtures and layouts to better support, to , to better align with the needs that they've identified. So , um, uh, yeah, we had them suggesting things like , uh, well bid I toilet , say it's , um, air dryers to replace towels. Uh , things like that. Um, and uh, another part of that was they wanted to have bathroom fixtures that , um, the that allowed support throughout the bathroom. So things that you could hold on to, to , um, make you feel more stable and safe. And so out of that, we , um, developed a project looking at, well looking at grab brows because um, uh, I think that's something that that could be done better. Um, in, in the laboratory trial we found that about half the people that we talk to. So these are all just older, older strands that would be a big, broad range used , um, some sort of support while getting up and down off the toilet at some stage. But only two of them had , uh , design support . So specific grout grab browse that was specific for that purpose so that we're grabbing on to basins or door handles or various things, toilet roll holders, various things that were within range . Tower owls was another big one. Um, that went as on to support their weight and, you know, you think, you know, how much load these things can take. If they do need it in a full situation, it's not going to support them. So I can probably possibly lead to a, a worse solution, I mean a worse outcome. So we started , um, thinking about how we could , uh , develop support surfaces that , um, fitted into the bathroom better. So , um, we started by talking about , um, grabbed brows as, as they currently kind of can saved . And , um, it was quite interesting that there's such a negative sort of perception about grab Rouse though , saying is , you know, the grandpas that you normally think of as being, you know, they're stainless steel pipes bent around on a radius and with a big Brown ugly flange and pretty much what our , when you say grab . Yeah , exactly. It's very distinctive and a lot of that is the aesthetic of it. I mean, it's just a support, like it's just a cylindrical thing that you can grab onto or something that you can grab onto. It's not that different from a door handle or a , um, you know, a railing on the stairs, but something about them being in the bathroom is, is stigmatizing. And we had one of our participants say that , uh, when her husband became , uh , had health issues and they needed to get their bathroom modified and these grab browser installed. She, she said , uh , I forget the exact quote, but it was something like the shutters went through me. Um, it's come to these, so it felt like a live stage by getting these things installed. And you think, well, it's like a walking frame almost. Yeah. Yeah. But it's, it's sort of, it's something that kind of makes sense. Bathrooms, the slippery place was hit your head on lots of things. Everyone's a little bit wobbly with hard surf shops . Yeah . And you know, everyone feels a bit wildly while they wash their face in the shower or in the middle of the night, you know. Um, but there's this sort of stigmatized stigma around a conventional grab brows . So , um, yeah, we looked at designing, grab brows that were more aesthetically , uh, integrated like that look more like conventional products. So , um, yeah, but as part of the LivWell range, we've got those , um , Opal support rails , we call them support Rouse rather than grab rails because we want to avoid that kind of that category. Um, so they just look , um, you know, like a strong towel, Raul or a , um, something, you know, they're just a basic cylindrical, bright Chrome sort of finished . Um, and we've got that integrated into a shower out, you know, shower out. Like we've got the, the hand shower attached to that and you know, they can be a little bit rickety, the conventional one . So this one's just a really solid, nice looking , uh, Roush cow that, you know, anyone would want. Like you can just hold onto it as hard as you want. It takes 150 kilos in any direction. So it's , um, it's , I mean , you know, anyone would want in the shower. So , um, yeah, we were looking at products like that that have less of a barrier of, of , uh, installation and conventional kind of bathroom modifications. It's intended that it's something that you would install before you needed it, so you get maximum use out of it, and then you'd do it at a time that , that suits you and you think about how it integrates with the rest of the bathroom design. So , um, you can end up having quite a nice looking bathroom , um, that offers more support than conventional. So, so , uh, um, you know, sturdy support rails. Yeah. Um , roomless toilets , um, uh , amorous toilets, we talk about that. So we've got an Opal, we've got a range of toilets . So sites that have armrests on the side , um , well they're not really ominous. They're the armrests that you use to get up and down. Um, so the, you know, we tested those in the lab. They make getting up and down much easier by mechanically . Um, and you know, that they , they look aesthetically integrated into the toilets. Um, and , uh , a good feature of them is that if you choose to install a toilet that has the bracket to support these things , um, you don't need to put the armrest on immediately. You can just put covers over the holes where they come out from the ceramic and um, you've got the option of adding them as you need them. So there's less of a barrier for improving the amount of support that the bathroom offers. So, you know, if , um, you get your knees replaced or something and you need more support for a while , you can fit them on and , and use them. And then if you're feeling better and you think, Oh, well, they just kind of, I've swung them out of the way most of the time. I'm not really using them. You can take them off. So , um, yeah, it's, it can adapt to your changing needs. It's not a permanent , uh , bolt-on kinda feeding . So it just opens up the flexibility of the spice . So , um, uh, you can create a , a spice that just works better for you without, you know, looking like a suddenly training in the hospital. And fair enough , the bathroom you aren't . So if you add the same suit driven , um, uh, the, the it, yeah, which is, I'm sorry that I am a smart command is a system at all that together you've, you've almost got a diagnostic bathroom you could do. Yeah. Depending on the way you design it, there's a lot of um, potential for how you can , um, come up with a , uh, a spicy and I , it just depends on one what's relevant to you. Um, but yeah, we aim to have a good range of products that give you the flexibility to design something that will really work for you for the long term and to support you. Okay . It sounds like in the future or the near future of guns , the bathroom's going to actually be fun. Oh yeah, definitely be fun. You might want to get out. You'll just so fossilized in the bathroom and you know, in the lab that you and SW, we, we bring people in and get them to customize the bathroom environment to fit their needs. So that's through , um, adjustable test rigs and um, various things like that. So people have the, the ability to, to move, you know, toilet Heights or the height that they want. Um, grab , browse into the positions that they want. And you can say that when things fit them well , um, they can move more comfortably and more. Um , design should fit, should , um, understand what people's requirements are and offering a range of, of solutions to them and giving them the autonomy to choose them. And, you know, encouraging a process they can choose and design and specify and try out and test out and install , uh , uh , a bathroom environment that suits them, means that they're going to be getting a better result in terms of performance of basic activities, but also enjoying , um, the time in the bathroom, enjoying that part of their lives. Cause it's , you know, it's a big party life and you know, if you designed your bathroom well it could, you know, you can get 20 years good use out of it. Um, where, you know, if you get it wrong, you can have 20 years of coping and difficulty and frustration. So , um, getting people to design, to , to be involved in the design process and thinking about those things. Can I I think result in some, you know , improvements in quality of life in the long run.

Speaker 1:

[inaudible]

Speaker 2:

interesting. I didn't realize you could actually , um, it could adjust a harder a toilet . I thought they all came with the exact same measurements and

Speaker 3:

Oh , um, uh, just with that product range, there's standard height toilets, which about 400 to the top of the pan. And then there's , um, care or easy height pads that are more for 35 or, yeah. Um, and different toilets, so it's have different thicknesses. Um, you know , the , yeah. Uh , I S phone in 28 , accessible toilet is, is uh , uh, four 50 to four 80, I think off the top of my head, sorry if I'm getting that wrong right now, but , um, uh, so that's a fair bit higher and that can work for some people with nay problems and stuff. But you know that that height mostly comes around from , um, being easy to transfer off a wheelchair. So, yeah , in the lab we found that that height was great for some people to get up and down. But some people that, you know , uh , shorter stature , um, they felt uncomfortable sitting at that height and it caused , um , made it difficult for them to sit in a supported way and it made them difficult for them to stand up again because their fate weren't making solid contact with the ground. So if you have to sort of slide forward or jump off the toilet, that's not a great way to get up, particularly if you've got , um, other issues with strength and balance. So , um, yeah, that's a, there's a toilet, a toilet height, little that fits each person.

Speaker 2:

So what would be your top three then? Uh , you know, design , um, I guess changes that are coming that w that we'll be seeing , um , in the near future, I guess, or whatever that's supposed to mean . Let's say when there's five or 10 years, I suppose , um, that in terms of toilet design , do you think you think will become their , I'll use the word ubiquitous.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Um, well I'm in the some that are out now that are just going to be more fully implemented. Like a crime has got a clean toilet design, which means there's no toilet room, you know, the, the room on the toilet, wait where your toilet, toilet ducks [inaudible] kills whatever's up there. We've managed to remove that completely, so, Oh really? Yeah, it keep an eye out for them. Um, but there's other rimless designs around, but crime is one's the best. Looking in the cleanest and uh, has the best flush performance you can, you can test the other ones app as the current ones the best. Um, and that means that the ball is sort of open and all glazed a bit like a basin so you can clean the whole way around with a cloth. No way for the gems to hide. I guess that would be one, one area where it will be perfect for them. Yeah . And we're able to, to develop that because we had the experience in flushing technology that we really know how um, how to make a toilet bowl flush. Well, so you know, it involves aspects like if you heard the timber is to tile for toilet flush, not , it's quite a good tip. So something new to look out for if you're looking at toilets around about , um, so the water in a toilet bowl comes out the back and it sort of washes around the sides of the ball. Yeah, keep an eye out for next time and it hits together at the front and crashes into each other and then forms a flush jet, which we call the rooster top. So it should lift off the surface of the ball into the air a bit. And um, uh, that produces a flush jet that is targeted to the waist and the sump, so something water at the bottom. So it lifts up and then is directed down towards that pushes , gathers the waist together and then pushes it down through the S trap. They trap and then out into the the building drainage system. So what you want to do is, is build up big, strong brace, a tie with a strong flush jet to get the waste out early and then the water coming behind that follows that through into the drain line and pushes it through the system. So , um, you know, that's something that we, we, yeah, we understood third , um, producing flash volume. So when it came to developing a roomless ball , um, for claim flash, we um, focused on producing those sort of , um, aspects of, of the flush flush performance. Say at the front of the claim, flash ball is a little, just a little rise called um , a fly balancer and then helps. Um, I am in focus that jet, so other pie , other toilet Pauls rimless ones you might see around , um, they won't have that straight a jet to, to push waste out or wobble around a bit and um , it doesn't have that same control. So , um, yeah, I mean that's it , that's, you know, new innovation until it design that, that we've, you know, it's finding its way throughout our product range and that's means that, you know , I feel looking at infection control, ease of cleaning, that's, that's an aspect of cleaning up the bowl that's better. Same . You know, it was something that we , uh , pushed out first through our , um, I'll live well rain , so I arrange for , um, that's specifically for accessibility in aged care and um, those sorts of applications. But it's, it's through our whole normal product range as well. So because you know , no one likes cleaning a toilet and everyone likes to get the toilet as clean as possible and this is the way of doing that. Okay. Um, yeah, other aspects, like I don't want to just be talking about stuff Chrome is doing, but um, it's obvious . We're obviously , um, keeping up in, in the field of, of innovation and technology. So we've also got our , um, uh , uh, smart command system, which is , uh, it's hands free , but it's also,

Speaker 2:

I was actually going to ask about that because that is, that is a real, real innovation and that is something that ties Todd into sustainability. And also this move that I've got to say that's kind of almost slowed in a bit, but it's picking up a bit more pace now. The automating of the harm , which I guess then goes into aged care as well because that helps people who aren't as mobile or , or you know, or who , um, you know, who, who, who probably would like to have some things more automated. It was , may forget, so that, that , um , th that smart control is actually very interesting.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I mean, obviously it's a hand spray in the, in the sort of commercial , uh, iteration of it that, that we're , you know, launching at the moment or building in the market at the moment. Um, but the real , uh, K t o it is that the, all the devices are Bluetooth enabled so that w e c ollecting, u m, data from every appliance that's being used. So, u m, that data management side of things has got some, you know, it's a big job, but it's a huge, got huge potential for really understanding what is going on in bathrooms where, u h, products might need maintenance. U m, interestingly, we've found that, u h, the, u h, the hand washing on a h and-washing is a big issue at the moment, but, u m, a lot more hand washing was going on in women's toilets than men's toilets, u m, for whatever reason. So that's something that we found out from that. And , um, you know, the data that you can get from , uh, a system like that means that could have implications for , uh , product design, but also , um, the building design. Like, you know, how many toilets do you need? How many, how many are being used, how many urinals do you need, how many stalls do you need? Um, yeah, this , this, the potential for that is huge. Um, but can also look at , um, water consumption , uh, where we could, you know, are there ways that we could reduce water consumption, say from urinals, if there was just, if we could get away with fewer flushes. Um, there's sorts of ways that , um, having access to that data , um , having building facilities managers, having access to that data , um, could lead to water savings and you know, it's a bit like the smart meters that you've got for electricity. Um, I wouldn't be surprised if we'd developed something if something comes out , uh, for homes as well. So looking at, you know , Lake detecting, things like that. Um, and then, yeah, you talked about aged care, a big indicator of wellbeing is , um, how much attention you're paying to your, to your hygiene needs and things like that. And also, you know, nighttime toilet usage can be an issue. It's a , it's the riskiest time for going to the bathroom because , um, I mean there's a whole whole range of aspects of , uh, of all the people going to the toilet at night. But , um, if people are going to the toilet, then it can be a , that can be a bit more warbler on their face. They're probably going to not be turning lights on so much. They might try to minimize noise cause they don't want to wake up their partner. Um, uh, it's , it's an aspect of, of daily life that it's interesting to find information about , uh , privacy issues. Uh, of course it'd be , uh , it'd be part of that. But , um, if you're looking at management of an aged care facility , um, especially, yeah , I'm just thinking with the Royal commission coming out, there's going to be a higher , um, a , a high level of interest in patient wellbeing and monitoring and , and having a good dog . Good source of information from , um, how , uh, of patient wellbeing or resident wellbeing

Speaker 1:

[inaudible]

Speaker 2:

building Aaron home . What, what would be the DeSoto design , whether that'd be a Carama designer or any other design, what would be the design you would choose and why?

Speaker 3:

So it would be a crime, a toilet, that's for sure. Um, I'd be thinking about the space where it was , um, with the right degree of, of privacy and isolation so that it was a distinct space. I'm just thinking about bathroom generally. It's nice to have a big shower space , uh, cause that it's , um, uh , that can have some big benefits in making sure you've got enough space there. Uh, made to have a bath in there because my wife's really into baths . But generally I think it's safer to have, to not have a bath. Um, be interesting to, to try out some , um , onsite different ways of using water. So , uh, maybe using rain water or possibly a gray water system in the house would be interesting. Um, what else would I do? Um, I'd be installing , um, uh , some of the nicer looking support rails that we've got , um, in thorough out the bathroom because they offer benefits for people of any age. And , um , aesthetically I think looked pretty good, so I wouldn't hesitate to install those things. Um, uh, a good outlook in the bathrooms . I have to bring nature in as much as possible. Um, that's one thing that I agree with you light, you know, bathroom, it's a very common, so they lighten air and , uh , thinking about sound as well. Um, plants bringing into that space as well as , uh , okay . It's , uh , a nice way to create the right environment. Um, yeah, like hashing in the house is important. So in what ways are thinking differently about an unswayed is uh , maybe as an extension to the bedroom , um, that being a sort of more personal space and then , um, you know, we've kids, you think what's the family bathroom that's going to work well for them as they turn into teenagers? How are they going to share that and not clutter up, not fight over that and also having some somewhere that yeah , happy to show off to guests . So some interesting things there. We've got a um, uh , a hand basin and toilet in a house at the moment that was installed as part of the research for launching that. And it's another crime of product, but it's , um, it's interesting in that it's, it's got the, the hand basin on the top of the system. So you know, when you flush a toilet he says is the system fills up again ready for next time. Um, when you flush this one, the water comes through a spout into a little basin. So you wash your hands with that water as it's refilling. So wash your hands and then it goes into the system and it fills up and it's like a little, this a little gray water recycling set up in the one toilet. So it means, you know, installation terms, it means you can have a basin in your toilet cubicle without any additional plumbing. Um, but it's uh , you know, a little example. It saves, you know, a reasonable amount of water over time. Yeah . Um , because you not using the water that you would otherwise be doing if you're hand washing and um , just to mention, try Novaris again. It, it runs for more than 20 seconds, so you've got plenty of time to wash your hands, bop properly. It's actually, people always comment. Um, yeah. Talking about people visiting , um, uh , paper , quiet people grab the con , uh , get the concept of it quite quickly, but they say it's running for too long. It's using up too much water and it's like that's a pretty efficient toilet. That's how much water you're using every time you flush the toilets. I just look at that filling up because every time you press the button, you don't know . It's not normally visible, but that's how much water are you using, dr to swim . That has been absolutely fascinating. Really fascinating. I really enjoyed that. Like I say, scratch the surface to something and there's always more to it than you think, so. Yeah . Yeah. Wow. Well, I definitely will have you on again, if you, if , if you did back into

Speaker 2:

our cozy little little, little studio. Sure. You've been listening to dr Peter swimming from Caroma on the design and technology behind toilets. You've been also listening to talking architecture and design. Until next time, goodbye.

Speaker 1:

[inaudible] .