Episode 474, The Andrew Parker Show - Baseball’s Timeless Appeal: A Conversation with Clark Griffith

Once a year, The Andrew Parker Show steps away from politics, Israel, and the law to focus on something just as enduring — baseball.

In Episode 474, Andrew welcomes back Clark Griffith, a longtime insider with deep ties to the Minnesota Twins organization and Major League Baseball itself. This annual conversation has become a listener favorite, blending history, strategy, and sharp insight into the modern game.

This episode covers:

• The Twins’ 2026 outlook — and whether low payroll and bullpen issues will define their season
• The controversial rise of automated ball-strike systems and what it means for the future of baseball
• The evolution of rule changes, from the designated hitter to today’s technology-driven decisions
• Griffith’s “Fifth Game Theory” — a powerful framework for understanding competitive balance in baseball
• Why baseball remains the most balanced and psychologically compelling sport in America
• A moving reflection on the game’s deeper meaning, including insights inspired by legends like Harmon Killebrew

This is more than a sports episode. It is a masterclass in how tradition, strategy, and human nature intersect in America’s pastime.

Whether you are a lifelong fan or simply curious about what makes baseball endure, this episode delivers perspective you will not hear anywhere else.

Transcript

Episode 474, The Andrew Parker Show - Baseball’s Timeless Appeal: A Conversation with Clark Griffith

Andrew Parker (00:00)
What's that? Welcome to another episode of the Andrew Parker show. Thank you so much for joining us. You know, most of our episodes run. What do we run episode four hundred and seventy four? Yes, indeed. Most of our episodes we talk politics, Israel and the law. But there is one episode every year.

that is back because of, well, demand. It's just popular demand. And that is the Minnesota Twins episode. Baseball, the American pastime. And some would say the greatest sport ever invented and still being played. Absolutely fabulous, the game of baseball.

Very little is changed in the game of baseball, but quite a bit has changed over the years. Say that again. Yeah, indeed. we're going to be joined here today by someone who knows a lot about what has changed over the years in baseball, what has remained the same, what makes it still the great game that it always has been and

continues to be the great American pastime. And that is one Clark Griffith, who I dare say knows more about baseball than almost anybody in this great nation. And I say that without reservation. mean, he has been involved at the highest levels, ⁓ both in terms of ownership. You know that his father, Calvin,

And the family owned the Minnesota Twins for many years, bringing the twins to Minneapolis in 1961 from Washington. And owning the twins, as I say, for many years. And of course, you now all know the owner of the twins. And we'll talk a little bit about the owners, the Polad family, who purchased

the twins a few decades ago. And we'll talk a little bit about the poll ads. I know many of you have strong opinions about the poll ads. We're going to start today first by welcoming you, Clark. Thank you so much for being with us again. Every April, we do this. It's always a thrill for me, to be here and to find your office on the eighth floor. Yes, indeed.

North 3rd. Yes, it is. Remember that people when you come to Parker Daniels keyboard, you have to go to the eighth floor. That's right. The top, the top floor. Very top. Yeah, indeed. And ⁓ that's where our studio is as well. You know, people just love having you on the show. It's one of the ⁓ most popular of shows every year.

And the crowd goes wild. big crowd today, I noticed. Yeah, yeah, it's a big crowd today. And I'll tell you that it's not just a crowd cheering, certainly as they do for the show, but also for the Minnesota Twins. Let's start there. Can we talk a little about whether the twins really have a chance with the payroll that they are spending? Define a chance.

That's right. I mean, a chance. mean, can they can they come in third or fourth in the division? That's the hard call. The I saw a probability of their winning the getting into the World Series at point one percent. Wow. That's a very low number. That's not a very low number.

Yeah, that that is not promising It's true, but that's only a prediction. You know, that's why they play the games. That's it So the last couple of nights we've had leads going into the eighth and going into the ninth We haven't quite gotten that last out well And as I understand it you need to get 27 outs you get to the every one of them. Yeah the problem the twins have in 2026 and I've not watched many games, but I've talked to people

is that they're deficient in the areas of defense and relief pitching. And I said that the hardest way to go through a season is to be deficient in defense and relief pitching. That's the worst possible way. They lost a game yesterday. They were ahead in the ninth. And I turned the radio off. I to somewhere else. And I said, well, they got this one, so I left. And then I found out later they'd lost seven to four. Unbelievable.

Yeah, a lot went on in that 10th inning a lot a lot can go on again You need to get you need to run through the tape. You need to get that 27th out. That's it's very helpful. Yeah It's very it's very very helpful. We talk each year ⁓ with Clark about Rules changes and you know, there are some years years ago. It was before Clark was

⁓ Before the I think it was before the show even began back in 2016 when the designated hitter ⁓ Became a part of the American League that was back in the 90s or 80s 80s Yeah, yeah What do you let me just ask as we get into the rules? Obviously that that's not a rule. We're talk about much here, but

What was your view then and now as it relates to the designated hitter? Very interesting you asked that. I was in Chicago at the league meeting when that was voted up and I was I was I kind of liked it. You know, it's revolutionary. I was very young then. I liked revolutionary things. Except that the next day I was driving along 494 remember this vividly going out towards Wayzata and it suddenly hit me.

that all these guys were talking about pitchers batting averages. And we have to get the DH because the pitchers batting averages were so bad. And we'd improve the offense of the game and the appeal of the game and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And it suddenly hit me that pitchers never hit. Pitchers only hit when it doesn't count. they're, when they're, and I mean- Because they're pinch hit for. They're pinch hit for. And what I mean by that is a pitcher comes up,

And it's a crucial situation the manager always substitutes for him, okay, and I said we've used the wrong statistics So in deciding to vote on the DH the American League used the wrong statistic Yeah, they use the batting average of pitchers when they you should have used the batting average of pitchers and those who hit for pitchers Yeah, interesting. There's there's a huge difference there

Wow, interesting. Clark Griffith we're talking to on the Andrew Parker show today, episode 474, and we are talking baseball. So the big rule changed this year in baseball. ⁓ let me add one more thing. So when I brought that issue up the next day on a telephone call, hey, we used the wrong statistic. Yeah. I was told, ⁓ don't worry, it's only experimental.

⁓ 50 years ago 50 years ago it's still going and by the way it has taken over and Shoot a big hunk out of the National League. Well, the National League does well they remember we got to remember in the nationally You know baseball has a problem people used to tell me I'm babbling a bit about this but people people baseball used to tell me Don't let the lawyers take over the game

Okay, with that knowledge, I promptly went to law school. Precisely. don't let the lawyers take over the game. Well, the lawyers have taken over the game. They have nothing but lawyers in the New York office. Well, they have come up with a new thing, an automatic ball strike machine. Yeah, we got to get it right, don't we? I mean, these umps don't know what the heck they're doing. Never, never. They're only 99 % accurate, you know.

That's right. And they're using the Hawkeye device that's used in tennis to gauge the position of the ball. This is a rule this year, Yeah. And it's rather bizarre because you have to decide. In tennis, it's easy. You have the lines on the court, know, 72 feet long and whatever it is wide. Sure, it either hits the line or it doesn't. The strike zone. The strike zone. don't know. So they decided the strike zone, the home plate 17 inches wide.

Now they decided that the strike zone they're going to worry about, that Hawkeye is going to find, is a strike zone that is dead center in the home plate. And then is 57 % of the player's height for the top portion of the strike zone, and 23 % of the player's height for the bottom of the strike zone.

Now you might ask how do they know this? Well, they measure the player, of course, right? When do they measure the player when he's coming up the bat? No, they measure the player in spring training. has to go in and stand. Yeah, it's like the NBA player. They always say it's three inches taller than they are. And they stand in a place and they put a machine and they gauge the height. And they have in this mechanism for gauging height a device that actually flattens out the hair.

So if you have this hair like Andy Parker, it's going to squash it down and cost him I can't afford to lose an inch or two. him an inch or two or higher. But this is absolutely bizarre. Oh my gosh. And then, course, you have batters that go to the home plate and some stand up straight. Yeah. Which is where they were measured. And others bend over a little bit or sometimes bend over quite a lot. Who is that little guy that they put up to bat? Who is it? Vax?

The Oakland Athletics years ago, they had a midget or something. was Bill Beck. Yeah, Bill Beck. And he put in a midget. The midget walked. Well, thank God. There it is. There it is. mean, what's the strike shown on that guy? The midget went the home plate and crouched. And crouched in addition to being a midget. He had a two inch strike zone. But this is absolutely bizarre.

And also, the rule says the pitch can cross the strike zone. Now the strike zone, as I indicated earlier, the plate is 17 inches wide. Now the strike zone is anywhere on that plate, from the front to the back. It has to just touch any part of it. But what they've done is they've drawn a line in the middle of the strike zone, like there's a thin piece of paper there.

that is, you know, and if the strike zone, the ball touches that piece of paper now, that's a strike. Now the rule is that if you object to the call the ABS system makes, you can object, you can raise an issue. And you do this, this is just funny, I love this part of it. They do this by tapping their helmets within two seconds of the event, okay?

And no wait now it's within two seconds of the umpires call Yep, you tap your helmet and then you can get the machine then you get the machine now the question people have argued That they they waited longer than two seconds, right? This is adding to the drama of the game. Apparently people like this stuff So now they have they have people looking in the timing timing the call. Yeah for the appeal. Yeah Now if you get it, right

You get two appeals a game. If you get it right, you don't lose one. If you get it wrong, you lose one. So if you lose two, you have no appeal. Now the strangest thing is happening. People have noted that when a team has lost its appeals, like in this fifth or sixth inning, the strike zone suddenly seems to be expanded by the umpire at right? Yeah. Who now no longer faces the second guessing ABS machine. So you can expand.

He changes he uses his own strike zone not the machine's well before so this is bizarre it is It now did you know to give her a little bit of credit it moves fairly quickly It's not like replays in hockey or or in the NFL worse yet where it takes forever and people are standing around It moves pretty quickly as to whether it's a strike or a ball

⁓ But there continues to be dispute because, you know, the way balls are thrown there, they're moving across the plate, outside the plate, they're spinning in, out, sinkers, sliders, curve balls, and it's sometimes, you know, it's hard to get that, ⁓ you know, the strike zone with where the ball crosses. And the only place the ABS counts it is in the middle.

of the home plate. Yeah. That's you know, I mean, what is I don't know what was his name? Scott Erickson. He'd paint the corners. What are you going to do? This is another example of the old adage. Don't don't let the lawyers get in the game. The lawyers got in the game and now we have the ABS and my God, there it is. Good news is, of course, it's supposed to be temporary. It's experimental. Like the DH.

There will a experiment. There will never be another MLB game without the machine. I can tell you that once it's in, it's it's in. Let's shift to something that is pure Clark Griffith. And that is the fifth game theory. We've talked about it the last few years, but in watching it, it really is something. Describe it for those who are unaware. And then let's ⁓

See whether it holds water. I'll give you some background. the 70s, late 70s, ⁓ during labor negotiations, owners kept arguing that they needed revised labor agreements ⁓ to provide for more competitive balance. Now, competitive balance is an interesting term. Everybody's forward, of course, competitive balance. But nobody knew what it was. So Bowie Kuhn, friend of mine, the commissioner of baseball at that time. yeah.

came to me and he said, Clark, why don't you figure out what competitive balance is? Some way we can articulate competitive balance and show it numerically. That would be preferential. So I said, OK, I'll do that, Bowie. And started looking at stats and games and stuff. And suddenly occurred to me that in baseball, in the long 162 game schedule, teams normally win two out of five.

They normally lose two out of five. And the championship of the league is determined by how they do in that fifth game. So I called this fifth game theory and sent it off to him. And he was thrilled because he had this way of doing it. But people have argued with me that this is not exactly true. And I've brought with me today the standings from 2025, recent year. And I want to.

to describe to you in 2025 that virtually every team, except for the White Sox and the Colorado Rockies, I believe. That fell off the cliff. Fell off the cliff. Yeah. Actually matched that fifth game theory. And nobody won more than 60 percent. Not any team in Major League Baseball in 2025 won more than three out of five. And

only those two teams lost more than three out of five. So I think the fifth game theory is here to stay. And why I'm suggesting this is that when you're going through a season and watching your favorite team play during the season, keep track of how they're doing in terms of five game sets. Five game sets. OK, don't make it too complicated. Just five game sets.

Now, the Twins this year have had, ⁓ they've won two a couple times. They've lost four recently. They won four a couple times. And they're at 500. ⁓ They're winning 2 and 1 out of five. So that's pretty good. pretty good. They continue like that. They're going to surprise a lot of people and be a 500 team at the end of the year, which I don't think they will be. we'll see. ⁓

That's the fifth game theory that by the way the fifth game theory in baseball that means baseball has the most competitive balance of any sport Yeah, nobody else comes close to it. You fight you watch football games football teams There are teams and win 14 15 games in the season Yeah, basketball their teams that are winning three out of five almost four out of five. yeah hockey I don't even pay attention to hockey but

I'll ask my son about that. Doesn't pay attention to the greatest of teams. He'll tell me about it. But baseball's got the best competitive balance of all teams, all sports, and it's amazing. Absolutely amazing. It is. York Mets have just lost 11 in a row. Yeah. And my son-in-law, Steven Velasquez, is in the doldrums over this. New York. He takes it personally. Well, I'll tell you that...

You know, the LA Dodgers, for example, as great a team as they are, did they not do better in 2025? The LA Dodgers in 2025 won 93 times and lost 69 times for a winning percentage of 574. So they missed by several games of winning that third out of Wow.

There you go. And they were the World Series champions. World Series champions. Yeah. But you don't you don't need to win 65 percent ⁓ to be a really good team. I suppose the Yankees in a few years that they were murderers, Roe, et cetera, would have done that. Actually, actually, this fifth game theory is applicable to many, many decades of baseball. Yeah. Look at the old standings.

Some teams have actually been absolutely horrible over the years, Philadelphia Athletics for a while, for example. the Yankees, of course. two out of five, winning two out of five, losing two out of five, and having the fifth game determine the championship has been a rule of thumb for a long time. And I think it's going to be a rule of thumb.

going for you listen to the Andrew Parker show and you learn something every episode and This one certainly no different. You've learned a number of things ⁓ Including the fact that the twins lack of defense and lack of bullpen relief will be the end of them this year the fact that we have a New rule using a machine to determine balls and strikes and how much Earl Weaver

would have hated that because he couldn't go out and kick ⁓ dirt onto the umpire for making bad calls. It usually wasn't balls and strikes with Earl Weaver. ⁓ However, I bet sometimes it was. Not often because that's a hard one to call and they have rules saying you shouldn't be. That's right. you'll get a challenge. But there were some ups he did not like.

But he was a better umpire from the dugout than most umpires were from the base path. did know the game. He did tell me that. He and I were very close friends. Earl Weaver, just can't. Some of the classic manager umpire arguments involved Earl Weaver. mean, there's just no question about it. Earl was an alarmingly smart man and he knew baseball better than anybody I've ever known.

and probably the best manager ever he was uh... outstanding if you don't know or we were was the manager of the baltimore orioles at the time when the minnesota twins were uh... you know uh... a great baseball team one of the best uh... but they always got beat by the baltimore orioles at least most of the time because the orioles had the most amazing pitching staff

Perhaps in the history of baseball. That comes back to pitching defense. They had Bruxy at Bruxy and Ballanger and the great relief corps. Yep. Unbelievable. And well, that's when starters would go, you know, Bob Gibson. What did he have? 30 complete games in a season. Jim Palmer. Pitch nine innings every day. Yeah. Yeah. And they had four 20 game winners. Hard to do. Four. Yeah. Crazy. So let's

Let me ask you, Clark, what do you think it is about the game of baseball that gives it its year in, year out, timeless appeal? Funny you should ask. Yeah. ⁓

I was chairman of Major League Baseball properties for 10 years. during those 10 years, we kept trying to define what it was about baseball that was distinct and different from the other games. We wanted to have people know what baseball was all about. So I ended up writing something I called Baseball's Timeless Appeal. Now since I wrote this, which is probably in the 80s,

issue of baseball's appeal being timeless is now universally adopted. You go to the internet, you find all kinds of articles about baseball's timeless appeal. But I want you to know I invented it myself, sitting in my porch in Lowry Hill, Minneapolis. Beautiful. Let me read this to you. Baseball's timeless appeal captures

the minds of fans who are enthralled by a game that, like the Odyssey, tells a story of the human condition. This is going to take too long, by the way. Well, you don't have to read every word, but you can paraphrase it. I'll talk about the pitcher. The pitcher attempts to put the batter out by using his extensive arsenal of pitches to cause the batter to strike out or hit the ball so it is caught.

in the air or on the ground.

to an infielder who throws, this is gonna take too long. We have to edit this. I like it, let me see. I can't read, I don't have my glasses. Oh, you don't have? I just had that eye operation. That is live podcast, that is live radio, as it were. I just had my eyes worked on, can't see. Oh, that's right, you told me, you told me that.

This is beautifully written. The pitcher can use any combination of speed or spin to defeat the batter, including illegal spit balls that sink precipitously or scuffed and cut balls that spin viciously. Pitchers succeed in putting batters out nearly 75 % of the time. If the batter hits a fair ball that is not caught, he becomes a runner and begins an odyssey around the bases.

This must be done carefully but speedily as he moves from the sanctuary of one base to another. The sanctuary of the base is available to one runner at a time. So the runner is on the base alone. They are that lone human being who owns that base for that time period. Think about sailors being tied to the mask of the Argo.

It you know, this is beautiful read one piece here I want to make sure everyone can get it and I will have you ⁓ read one piece WWW dot Clark Griffith blog dot com Clark Griffith blog dot com and then pull up baseball's timeless appeal it is

beautifully written the Odyssey of Life and the Odyssey of Baseball. Now, I sent this article to ⁓ Harmon Killebrew, who was a friend of mine. Harmon and I met each other as teenagers. You know, I was out the other night, ⁓ Saturday night, Clark, and I'm interrupting you for a second only to say, and I was sitting at an event next to Tony Oliva.

Wow, and we were talking about Harman Killebrew. Yep, and Tony ⁓ was there looking great. I gotta call him today. Yeah, he is he is He's fabulous and what a great guy Tony Oliva terrific guy. Yeah and a great hitter He didn't to say that he didn't he bat 310 he ⁓ I think he batted almost 310 lifetime and He told me that Carmen Killebrew Was a great hitter

Oh yeah. I mean hit long home runs. Yeah, I remember. Okay, so I said baseball's time was appeal to Harmon. said, Harmon, tell me what you think about this. And a week or so later, he called me back. Very strange. And he said, Clark, that paragraph you have on the home run is the best description of the home run I've ever read.

Oh, I love it. OK, you got to Here's a guy who had 521 home runs or so. And he told me. No, I think he had more. I think. Well, five hundred and seventy six. I'm going with. OK, if I have twenty one, I'm going. OK, I'm going look it up. Go ahead. OK. Here it is. Baseball's most prestigious feat is the home run. However, it only accounts for one run plus one for each runner on base. Whereas a.

In cricket, a ball hit over the boundary on the fly counts for six. The home run derives its precedes from the act of driving the hostile pitch out of the field of play or in a showing of complete victory. It is the ultimate show of dominance, like Alexander the Great cutting the Gordian knot. A home run allows the batter to trot regally with impunity.

in an ostentatiously slow, plotting, sometimes taunting pace, while the fielders must stand and watch, incapable of action, mute. Baseball tells a story that relates to the human condition. The game requires great physical and mental skill in hitting a pitch ball, fielding, throwing, running, and taking

risks to advance through the dangers of the infield. It is unique in its imagery and its appeal as the story of players alone in the wilderness, relying on friends for help and being alert to dangers while focusing on the single goal of reaching home safely. For a baseball player like the rest of us, this occurs every day. The story played out in

is like life itself, and that is the appeal of the game that has enraptured fans for more than 150 years. Wow. Wow. Okay. I mean, what can you say but yes, yes, it is beautifully written and you can get it at clarkgriffithblog.com.

dot com Harman Killebrew we were both wrong He didn't have 521. He didn't have 576. He had 573. Oh, I didn't know that That's a lot of home run. I've learned something here a brew I mean he was an unbelievable and member at Old Met Stadium If you hit the ball, he hit the ball out of the ballpark once I hit the ball in the second deck. Yeah, I mean Yeah

Over 500 feet. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. I saw him at his first home run too. And I remember that. Wow. Fabulous. So the timeless appeal of baseball. A couple of other things before we wrap, Clark. And I really appreciate you being with us today. Just it wouldn't be another April without Clark and the Andrew Parker show. The poll ads, the poll ads.

Own own the team now they they got into a bit of hot water they were gonna sell everyone was clapping and cheering because They didn't sell the team they sold off the team in a garage sale of sorts by getting rid of all of most of the Prime talent at least in the bullpen for sure ⁓ Last year and they're one of the lowest payrolls

in ⁓ Major League Baseball. ⁓ How do you think the Polads are doing and do we have hope as baseball fans here in Minnesota? Well, I think the Polads actually do a very good job of running this team and ⁓ they should be commended. In fact, I know Jim Polad and like him a lot and I think he did a very good job. And I'm waiting to see what

ends up with Tom, and Tom Pollads, which is Bob's son, his tenure, and I think he's gonna do well. I've heard him on the radio, I've heard him on the television, I've read his accounts. I think he has a feel for it and knows what he's doing. So let's give him a break and let him go. I think the Pollads are perfect owners for this community. Yeah, why do you say that? Well, they're from the community. Yeah, that's true. they're committed to it.

And ⁓ they've got a lot of money so they can support the team. Well, God willing that they can and we've got ⁓ to get back to those winning days because frankly, over the entirety of the Minnesota Twins eras, ⁓ the Twins have really been a good baseball team, a great baseball Very good team, very fortunate in that. ⁓ you know, we play in the northern...

of states as they say. We're very close to Canada. We're probably the second most northern city. I think Seattle might be a tad more northern than we are. we're north of Toronto. ⁓ we're in the middle of the continent, which is very cold. So that's a problem we have to deal with here. And we dealt with it once with the... ⁓

But the Dome State provided the finest home field advantage in Major League Baseball. No one could come close to the Metrodome. We bought the World Series twice. We probably won a thousand games because of the Metrodome. Now we play outdoors, it's kind of cold sometimes. Well, we've had some great teams, great teams to cheer and hopefully the Polads will get that.

back. Final word from you, Clark, what is your prediction for the Central Division in the American League 2026? That's a very interesting ⁓ question. I think Kansas City is going to be pretty good. I think they have emerged. And then Cleveland, Detroit will be the top three. thank God for the Chicago White Sox who are horrible. Yeah.

And the twins will finish the head of Chicago. So the twins in fourth place maybe this year. OK. If they surprise, they may sneak ahead of Detroit or Cleveland. But I don't think they will. And who do you think will win the division? Kansas City? Kansas City may. I've been a Kansas City fan for a long time. And I think they're going to be pretty good. They haven't started all that well. Have you been down there to their stadium? I've never been there. And I was thinking of going. it worth going? Kaufman Park's a good place. It is? Yeah. I'm thinking about building a new one, too.

yeah. Yeah, I know. It's been there a while. They might build it in Kansas. That's the football. the football. Who can tell the difference? knows? Clark Griffith regaling us with everything baseball, the great American pastime. And what a wonderful show. And it's wonderful once again to have you with us, Clark, for this episode of the Andrew Parker show. Got to have you back. I know you're a regular.

listener and I love getting your opinions on politics is real in the law but certainly a highlight of the year for me for sure and for many of our listeners is having you on the show. I hope so and people you know log on get a copy of baseball's timeless appeal. Oh absolutely. It's been published very widely newspapers in such places. It's really beautiful. wrote this in 2013.

And it is as timeless now as ever. ⁓ It's as applicable now as ever. Go to ClarkGriffithblog.com and pull up and copy baseball's timeless appeal. You'll have it always. Until next time, first go to theandrewparkershow.com, ⁓ sign up, subscribe, et cetera, and the YouTube channel. ⁓

Save that as a favorite ⁓ as we are now going live with many of our episodes and so you don't want to ⁓ Miss a single one Go to the Andrew Parker show comm for what is often referred to as well sometimes at least an award-winning website and until next time as I say Be kind to your neighbor

It's nice.