216. Transforming Schools with Learning Science: Inside Two High-Performing UK Schools

What if improving results across an entire school came down to a handful of simple learning habits, done well, every day? 

In this episode we sit down with two headteachers from top-performing UK schools – Andy Green (Copleston High School) and Peter Lee (Q3 Academy Langley) – to discover how the science of learning effectively has influenced their leadership, teaching approaches, and the learning experiences of their students when put into practice across an entire school community.

We unpack how clear routines in the classroom, research-led CPD, well-communicated simple revision strategies, and a tight teaching playbook can improve engagement, consistency and exam results school-wide. 

This episode is slightly different to our normal fare, but it is packed with practical insights. Whether you’re a teacher, school leader, parent or student, you’ll come away with concrete ideas for building a culture of effective learning – in the classroom and at home.

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Three invitations for (UK) educators:

1.      Come and watch me teach (revision strategy workshop) 

Want to see what expert revision strategy training actually looks like in a real classroom? Come and watch me in action delivering a revision strategy workshop in a school near you. 

2.      Take part in the Revision Census

I’ve surveyed the revision habits of over 75,000 students in the UK to date. Want an insight into the habits of your own students? Participate in the Revision Census and get a clear, data-rich picture of your students’ current habits, what’s working well, and where the biggest opportunities for improvement lie.

3.      Work with me (student workshops + teacher CPD)

Level up on learning science across your whole school: sign up for high-impact revision workshops for students and CPD for teachers in your own school. 

If any of these sound useful for your school, get in touch with Katie at katie@examstudyexpert.com  and we’ll get the ball rolling.

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🎓About Exam Study Expert: 

Hosted by William Wadsworth, memory psychologist, independent researcher and study skills coach. I help ambitious students to study smarter, not harder, so they can ace their exams with less work and less stress. 

🎯 Book 1:1 COACHING to supercharge your exam success: https://examstudyexpert.com/workwithme/ 

📘Get Outsmart Your Exams, my award-winning exam technique book: https://geni.us/exams * 

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Podcast edited by Kerri Edinburgh. 

* As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases on suggested books.

Chapters

• 0:00 Framing The Case Study
• 7:07 Meet The Head Teachers
• 13:18 First Steps Into Learning Science
• 21:15 Building Culture And Conditions
• 29:30 Lesson Frameworks That Stick
• 38:30 From Classroom To Home Study

Transcript

William Wadsworth: 0:02

Hello and welcome to the Exam Study Expert Podcast. This week we want to bring you something a little bit different here on the show. So we work very hard to bring you the very best advice you'll find anywhere here on the Exam Study Expert Podcast to help you study effectively for those big exams, featuring a range of expert guests from the worlds of learning science, productivity, mindset, and more. And I also try to weave in practical case studies from time to time, featuring real students and how they've applied ideas from the show to their own learning journeys to help inspire the rest of us. Today is a little bit of a practical case study as well, but of a rather different kind to the Student Stories series. This is in effect the Head Teacher Stories series. And I'm joined today by the head teachers of two very successful schools here in the UK, both of which are among the top-performing schools in the whole country in terms of the exam results they unlock for their students. And today's conversation is around how school leaders like today's guests are seeing the power of learning to learn effectively as a really key tool to helping their students get really, really excellent results in their big exams. So specifically, we're delighted to be joined today by Andy Green, who is the head at Copleston High School in Ipswich, and Peter Lee, who leads at Q3 Academy Langley. Both schools serve a very large, very diverse student population, and they help their young scholars from all walks of life thrive academically. Both schools reach into the very highest echelons of the school league tables that rank schools according to the exam results their students get. Now, I've worked closely with Andy at Copbleston High School for many years now, and I've had the pleasure of speaking to both their students and their teachers on numerous occasions to support the school in rolling out and building on the work they've done on effective revision strategy to really make sure that effective learning strategies are as embedded as possible in the school culture. And the results have been really, really excellent. At its heart, good exam revision can be described very simply. So listen out for how Andy narrates the focus that he has put at Cobblestone on just doing the basics really, really well at the core of your revision strategy. I think that's a really powerful message. It doesn't have to be too complicated. Keep it really, really simple. Simplicity is power, because we can seize it, we can make sense of it, and we can we can do it. So that's a little bit of introduction. Andy, and I've not personally worked with Peter and Keith Langley before. I felt it was good for balance to have a range of perspectives around the table. And like Andy, Peter also sees bringing the science of learning into the school as really a key part of that school's success story. And Keith Langley has been very, very successful. At the time of recording this little intro message, I think just last week, Peter received a uh a message from the UK Secretary of State for Education commending him and his school uh for the excellent work they're doing and the and the fantastic progress they're making. So I should just say a little bit of vocabulary for listeners around the world. We tend to use the word revision here in the UK to mean studying for exams. So we'll say revising for an exam in the same way that some other people might say studying for an exam or even reviewing for an exam. So revising just means studying or reviewing for an exam. Now, the conversation is a little wider today than just revision and studying for exams. And I kind of considered whether to focus the edit more tightly just on the exam revision bits. In the end, I decided that I think it would be quite helpful to include some of that additional context. Uh, what are the some of the other things going on in the school? Because I think it really helps to build up a picture of this whole school's ethos. Uh, you know, we so often take quite a holistic approach to independent learning and and and kind of looking at not just your learning strategy but your your your mindset, your well-being, and all those other things that contribute. And and I think the same thing is is true at school level as well. So I've I've left in a little bit of the conversation that spans just a bit beyond uh strictly exam revision, but I think it all adds up to the picture. And it's all really interesting uh stuff, really interesting kind of case study to share with you. So given today's frame, it's going to be particularly interesting today, I think, to our teachers and educators out there who listen to the show. But I think it's an inspiring story really for all of us listening, um whether we're at school or uh whether we're teaching at a school, whether we're learning at a school, whether we're a parent, or for uh, you know, anyone who's you know long past the age of school and and is uh still maintaining an interest in studying. You know, I know for example we've got plenty of professionals who listen to the show to help them study for major professional exams. Whoever you are, I think kind of the message and the kind of success story is quite inspiring to hear and and a really nice example of how applying the kinds of ideas we talk about, you know, week in, week out here on the Exams and Expert Podcast, applying those at kind of a school level can lead to success at the level of a school, not just the level of an individual student. So this stuff really is for everyone and it works. I think it's one of the big messages I want to get across today. So without further ado from me, let's meet today's guests and dive right in. Enjoy.

Peter Lee: 5:06

Thanks to Late Head Teacher at Q3 Academy Langley. We're in Sandwell in the West Midlands in the uh black country. I've been head here for this is my tenth year here, and we were we're a bit like a presumptive free school and that we built from scratch. So we just started with a year seven cohort and then kind of grew. And we're now uh 11 to 16 school, five year groups, 300 in every year group. A third of the children of free school meals, and so that's 500 free school meal children. Prior to that, I've worked in Birmingham and the Black Country, teacher, head of department, head of faculty, assistant head in a couple of schools, deputy head, etc. Held all the all the great offices of state and so forth.

William Wadsworth: 5:46

Very warm welcome. And and and Andy.

Andy Green: 5:48

My name's Andy Green. I'm the executive principal within our trust, and that involves being the principal at Coppleston High School. This is my eighth year as principal at Coppleston High School. Prior to that, I've been head of school and vice principal at Coppleston. I've been here 15 years, and before that, I was an assistant principal in a large secondary school in Norfolk, overseeing both behaviour and attendance, and I've worked in other schools in and around Suffolk in in all sorts of positions. So I've done kind of the pastoral and the curriculum lead and teaching and learning roles. And here at Coppleston, we've got 2,000 students, 326 students in a year group. We're a large secondary i in in Suffolk. Yeah, and um I very much enjoy the role.

William Wadsworth: 6:38

Amazing. So we're going to be exploring a little bit today about the kind of impact of the science of learning and and and the cognitive psychology revolution uh at your schools. I wondered if I could start by asking each of you, can you remember what was your personal kind of first introduction to this world and this this material? Starting with you, Andy.

Andy Green: 6:56

Yeah, I mean that's a really good question, actually. Because I've really got into this stuff over the last, I'm gonna say four or five years in particular. I've been quite inspired by some of the stuff Dylan Williams has written in in the past and some of his podcasts and a lot of his stuff um around memory, cognitive lobe theory, I think Dan William and and the work that he's done around memory. And also uh there's a guy called Paul Kirchner who I particularly like, um, who's done an awful lot of work around how learning happens, how the memory works, the difference between work in memory and long-term memory, the importance of spacing and spaced repetition, and how you should, you know, how you should build that into curriculums and and sequencing of curriculums at at subject level as well as for revision at home for children. So it yeah, I've I've become very fascinated with this uh over the last sort of four or five years and began to realize how powerful it can be for really taking students' learning and therefore results on to the next level. But yeah, lots of people have kind of inspired me and uh and I guess my final comment on that would be post-COVID, I've really got into podcasts. I do like reading books, but I've got five children, so you know, reading books can sometimes be quite effortful. Um so one podcast will summarise in an hour what might take you several uh weeks to read. I've really found that post-COVID to be um quite enlightening and inspirational, actually.

William Wadsworth: 8:28

Yeah, yeah. And and same question to you, Peter.

Peter Lee: 8:30

I suppose I'd echo like what Andy says, perhaps like what why we're a bit kindred spirits uh in one sense. I th I think my journey goes back probably longer though. I I did a master's in teaching and learning, uh, which I started in sort of 2013, finished in 2016. And I suppose at the same time, some of the kind of people and uh and those context, I think I got exposed divine of that, but also I was part of the kind of the online Twitter community that had kind of has come out of kind of the research ed movement, and that was really interesting because it started to connect me with people kind of around the country, whereas previously the kind of the CPD you'd have would be within your local authority, and and then uh and at the very start of my teaching career, took 2005 and 607, you know, you'd go and visit schools and uh you'd have to pay to go and see them for the day. And then suddenly, I think Ruth Robinson talked about it on a podcast last year or something. Um, these schools were suddenly opening up themselves. Um, and at the same time, I'd I'd kind of come across Teach Like a Champion, and and I started to kind of connect with people and then visit schools. So I went to Michaela for the first time in May 2015, which was I always say it was like a life-affirming visit because I saw Barry Smith teach for the first time. Uh, and as he always tells me, he's the best teacher he's ever, you know, I've ever seen teacher. It was a really amazing day to see that and that. And then from probably 2015 to 20 till Covid, I was very lucky I was able to visit a school uh a month, pretty much. And so kind of all the way up north. I think I've gone as far north as Sunderland all the way down south, and and that kind of got me the connection with uh the Knowledge Hub. It was the Midlands Knowledge Hub, but they they run the exemplary leadership program that initially came out of Research Dead and so forth. So just became a connection with kind of like-minded people in education across the country that kind of social media allowed you to do, whereas previously you wouldn't have had that.

William Wadsworth: 10:26

Really interesting. I'm curious. So you you've both clearly got a strong kind of personal interest in in the science of learning. What steps have you taken to sort of uh build that culture across your school? And you know, what advice might you have for schools kind of on that journey and still sort of in the process, you know, at various stages, early stage, mid-stage, of kind of really building that that culture of effective learning? Yeah, what if what have you done that's that's that's been effective in in doing that?

Andy Green: 10:53

Well, well, I think I would pick up on something that Peter just mentioned um there, which um I think is really important for listeners. And he talked about school visits and visiting you know other high-performing schools and schools that you know have done really well. And you know, I I I've done exactly that. I think probably almost 10 years ago to the day I started visiting, you know, schools such as Michaela, such as Forest Gate in London, such as Brampton Manor, I've been to see Peter at Q3, which is inspirational by the way, um, and I've been to to Mercia and some schools in the Greenshaw Learning Trust. So you go and see these schools, so and and and what you notice about all of those schools is the conditions for implementation of teaching and learning are incredibly strong, and by that I mean the culture and ethos that they've got is such, and and the behaviour of the children is such, uh, and and the consistency of the routines, both with students and staff, is such that it allows the implementation on the ground to take place. So I think the first thing I would say is that that is very important because I I would imagine most people in education will read things by people like Paul Kirshner and Carl Hendrix, they will read things by Dan William, they will listen to this very excellent exam study expert podcast by William Wadsworth. However, the implementation of it on the ground is quite effortful, but you have to have the cultural conditions for the implementation of strong teaching and learning on the ground. And I learnt a lot about that by visiting highly successful schools nationally. So that is probably the first thing that that kind of got me thinking about how can we do this at scale, how can we do this in a large school like Coppleston with 326 students in a year group, and it's consistency in routines to create the foundation or if you like the bedrock in terms of a culture of the school that then allows you to maximize the implementation of the teaching and learning strategies that we all know through what we've read are the things that are likely to most work. I don't know whether you agree with that, Pete.

Peter Lee: 13:03

Yeah, I definitely agree with that, Andy. And I think I I think philosophically we also we we had the opportunity to set up the school from scratch, William. And I think Catherine Burbels thing I heard her on a podcast talking about, I think that gives the thinking space to be able to design kind of lessons. So some of the things that we did, for instance, so we're a we said we want to be a knowledge-rich curriculum. We also were an EBAC curriculum, and I know sometimes in education circles that gets a you know a bit of a criticism. I'm a historian, I think kids should do history, and and and and I really support the teaching of modern foreign languages. And and for us, we didn't have any specialist classroom space, so it was very easy to become an EBAC curriculum. So it meant 100% of our children followed the EBAC diet, and then we ended up with 90% entry. Um and I think and I think I would always subscribe, and we're very lucky to host Nick Gibb. So his rationale for it was around disadvantaged kids doing academic subjects, and so therefore, you've got to create the conditions in order for them to be taught and for them to learn. So we do, for instance, a three-period day of 100 minutes. Now, this actually came from my teaching background where I worked in a school that featured in Ofsted's uh 2015 Wasted Years report, uh, where I saw the relational aspect of having longer periods of time with the same teacher and teachers in particular year groups. So I I have a body of staff in Key Sage 3 that only teach year seven or only teach year eight, and then they teach the same lesson on a carousel, which I think helps them become more subject experts and and they become more proficient. Um, and so within that longer period of time, it means as a historian, I can I can teach a concept, I can go through constructive phases, and then I can give them the children the chance to to apply their learning because there's more time, not waiting for the next lesson that's three, four, four days later. And that just came about. I I I always said at one of my first schools that I taught, my best teaching day once was I had one and two with my year 11s, and I had period five with my year 11s. So I we would go through the contents, everything, period one and two, and then period five, they'd come back in and we'd write an exam style question and then you know, mark it or go through it. And and and it was having that that kind of period of time that I think really helped our our school and our students develop strong in independent learning skills.

William Wadsworth: 15:14

So I wanted to just pick up something you you mentioned, Andy. You you said visiting Q3 was was to use your word inspirational. Uh tell us a little bit about that. Why was it inspirational?

Andy Green: 15:22

You know, Pete's also been to ours, and I I hope we we I think we do some things quite similarly, but um I guess what what you would notice at Q3, and I hope what you would we'd notice at Copeleston is is you've got to have the right conditions. I've said I've said that, but you've you've also got to uh you know, staff have got to know exactly what needs to be done in order to allow the teaching and learning to be the most impactful. So the sorts of things that we would do is, you know, we would have a really good lesson framework, for example, that would say we're gonna do do now tasks, and the do know tasks are gonna be around retrieval and recall of things that have previously been taught, and we've in and and we're gonna go back to those things on regular, you know, regular occasions. So you're spacing. We're gonna have teacher exposition phase where the teacher is the expert in the room and they're gonna model and they're gonna use the visualizer in most cases, unless they're doing something outside on the field, or you know, you know, sometimes that doesn't work, but in most cases that's what they're gonna do, and they're gonna work through examples with with students and they're gonna check for understanding using the mini whiteboards, and and the students are doing their own kind of you know, we're gonna do 20 minutes of writing in a lesson, and the the staff are gonna circulate and they're gonna give live feedback, which is sort of scaffolding to help the still children to get to where they need to get to. We we have kind of a type framework that supports that alongside a really good program of professional development for staff, so that professionally staff know exactly what we want them to do, because I think sometimes when you're involved in everyday life in a school or any other organization for that matter, clarity of of expectation is really important. So in order to allow learning to be fully maximised, staff need to know what does a good lesson look like, what am I expected to do, and then we need to make sure that the training that the staff get around those things is of a high enough quality, and then we keep revisiting those things with staff in the same way that you would with students, because obviously, if repetition and space learning applies to students, it applies to adults as well. You know, and that's what you would see at Q3 Langley, that's what you would see at Michaela, that's what I did see at Q3 Langley, you know, a really good lesson framework, really, really carefully thought through lessons. You know, every lesson has got a do-now task, every lesson has got the key vocabulary we're gonna learn today, every lesson has got modeling. You know, I'm gonna show you what good looks like by the teacher. Every lesson has got, you know, check-in for understanding, and we're gonna work through these examples, and every every lesson has got a teacher circulating and giving live feedback while the students are doing their they call it everybody writes at Q3 Langley, while they're doing their their 20 minutes of of writing. So there's a really tight framework. Now that doesn't mean you can't ever work outside of the framework, because sometimes in a vocational subject and you're working on portfolios, or you're you're outside on the PE field, or you're doing cooking in food technology, that framework needs to be adapted a little bit. But in the main, those ingredients are the ones that allow the learning to be deeply embedded. And the training for staff, and we do the same here at Coppleston, is always around those ingredients of what works in terms of teaching and learning. I think that's fair to say that's what you do at Q3 a lot, Peter. And um I I feel we do that at Coppelston as well, and I maybe not as well as you though.

Peter Lee: 18:44

No, no, no, no, no, I wouldn't say that, and it and it it was it was inspirational to go to Cobbleston. And I think that the challenge I've had, William, has been around kind of building a school from scratch, and we've we've gone kind of gone through different sizes of year groups. So our first cohort, our normal cohort, was 150, um, and then we were 240 every year, and then we've moved to 300 every year. And so I wanted to go and see a school that was delivering with with those numbers, and I saw that at Cobbleton, and I saw the foundations that Andy has taught to. And the hard bit uh around school improvement, uh, I found personally was is when you upscale, and it and it's it's the bit Andy talked about in terms of training the teachers because you get more variables within there. So for me, we've always had had a kind of consistent lesson planning framework, which actually, although I would kind of class myself on the kind of traditionalist side of the education debate, came from the teap framework that I did teak training back in the day, and actually quite like the the kind of the simplicity of that to make sure there's a starter, to make sure there are kind of construct and apply phases. And and we just coined something called silent apply, in that I wanted children to be to struggle to find something hard. I don't want them to find it easy and to kind of bring all the learning from the kind of the first three quarters of the lesson down onto paper individually, where they have to then provide their uh responses.

William Wadsworth: 20:04

I'm interested in this this idea of kind of culture and buy-in. I mean, you you you were talking, Andy, about the importance of that that well, you you've both talked about the importance of kind of routine and and and kind of having that clarity of of expectation across the school. Andy, you were talking about like the importance of PD and being really clear on what to do. You know, uh as someone that that often talks to staff as well, I'm also interested in in kind of them having that buy-in into like why they're doing it as well. Because sometimes I'll I'll come across examples where staff are maybe uh resisting, kind of maybe chafing a little bit under, you know, they sense it as a little bit rigid. And and I think when you understand the why of why we're trying to do it, uh then it that kind of wins my uh you know, that that heart as well as mind conversation. Is is is that how you'd see it as well?

Andy Green: 20:49

Yeah, I I would, and I you know was it Simon Sinick that wrote the book that said start with why, but but you know, I think that is important. So, you know, I I would never stand up to staff and say these are the things that we should be doing because you know Andy Green thinks it's a really good idea. You know, I would stand up and say that the research from Rob Koch, the the research from from you know Carl Hendrix and Paul Kershler, the you know, uh the research from Dan William, you know, I so I would always give a a research base in terms of the evidence suggests that these are the best pets as well. And I always say to staff, look, you've you've got an hour in a lesson, you know, you've got that um we we always talk about you know every second counts or every minute counts, you've got an hour in a lesson to maximize the learning um for students, some of which will do quite a lot of learning at home, and some of which might do less learning at home, but you've got an hour to maximize what you teach in that lesson. Now, these are the best fits. That doesn't mean that other things have zero impact, but within an hour, you've got to use that time to do the things that have the most impact and these are the things that that that Rob Co would say have the most impact. And and of course evidence and research has changed things over the last five years. You know, I I mean I I remember listening to Tom Bennett on on one of your podcasts where, you know, there was some research a few years ago that said, you know, we shouldn't mark in red pen because red pen caused negativity and made people think negatively, but you wouldn't say that about Coca-Cola or Father Christmas. So therefore, you know, that that kind of research was proven to be, you know, not steeped in real evidence. So I try and say to staff, I'm not saying that other things that you might have because some people have been teaching like me 30 years. There was stuff I would have been doing 20 years ago that when I look back on, I now realised really didn't work. You know, when I used to do group work 25 years ago and one person was the timer and one person was the chairperson and one person was the minute taker or whatever. You know, when I reflect on that, you know, that didn't lead to high quality learning from lots of students. But at the time it was very fashionable. Now that now that's not to say that in a A-level or university environment there is no benefit from talking together within a group and bouncing ideas off people. Of course there is but context is obviously everything. But with a with with with students in an hour long lesson in a year seven, eight, nine or ten or even year eleven GCSE class, that is probably not likely to be the most impactful strategy.

William Wadsworth: 23:32

I like that way of framing it as your your best bets, the the best ways to to get the um the most results in the in the time you're putting in you know I often talk to learners in in similar terms. That's a nice way really nice way of putting it. You touched Andy on this idea of uh learning at home. So you know as as uh teachers we want to make best use of the time in the classroom my particular passion as as as you know very well Andy is is what the learners do in their own time too. So um I'm curious what steps have you both taken to help uh your learners apply some of these science and the way I see it is we've got this kind of core underlying science of learning. We've got application in the classroom we've got application of that science in the in uh in in in our independent learning too to effective revision. So so I wonder if you could both kind of comment a little on that side of the coin how how are your learners getting on applying this what have you done to help?

Peter Lee: 24:22

I think I think that's a really interesting one William and often when we have visit days here I use the analogy around homework and our homework in Key Cistry is knowledge based. So um because kind of very similar lessons the children will get set uh say learn 20 dates in history for instance they then get a week to to do that at home in our kind of knowledge organisers week we call them Q for K's and then they get tested the following week and if they don't get a score we do give a bit of flexibility to staff based on their kind of PC2 stats then they then get a retest or a reteach on on the Thursday of that of that week and we're like yesterday was retest day we had 487 children had a retest at least one that can have up to five uh retests and that's trying to create those conditions at home where children are doing the work and we we ban mobile phones we collect them in uh we were one of the first schools in the country to do that and and we don't set mobile homework uh apart from Sparks maths in theory so everything is paper based and and that again I I think came from I think in our first year we tried to do online homework and we even we we we had a computer room and we even used the library locally and said will you host our children and can they use your your computers and then we just realised it didn't work and and I think COVID taught us that as well COVID taught that you know when you work in a deprived community like I serve here here in Sanwell that there isn't the the the the house with with with the the PC and and it has to be kind of done on a mobile you know lots of children do have mobiles but some of them don't have the data and um to access and so it's it's creating those conditions and and and that kind of naturally feeds into key stage four one of the things Andy says about visiting schools I remember visiting Dixon's Inspirational Trust doing some amazing things and I was struck by um just all the children were walking in with CGP guides and and and going home cleaning with CGP guides and and doing the hard yards of work and that's and that's ultimately what light leads to success in in in Key Stage 4 I I would argue and it and it's creating those conditions so the children are willing to do that at home. I I say this with my own son. My own son is in year 11 he's just gone through his mocks and he he he just works so hard and he's so diligent and I can really see him pulling the hours in and the and and building on the things he's doing in the class with his teachers who are great but he's having to put the the real hard yards in in at home.

William Wadsworth: 26:48

Andy your your school's participated in in the revision census that we host obviously and and and you get some of the the best revision efficacy scores you know we see for any school in the country. What are some of the steps that you've taken over the years to to really kind of instill in your learners those best bets for how they use their revision in their independent learning time?

Andy Green: 27:07

I'm I'm a great believer in um in in keeping things simple. So there's a lot of revision strategies that that work and and nobody is is suggesting that I'm saying you know you must use this and not use the other. Better if you make your own than buy them albeit you know don't spend so long making them that you don't actually train with them. You know, but if you use flashcards and you train with them in order and you use past papers and you do that and you look at Mark schemes and you do that over a over a period of time where you start early enough and you build that into a study planner then you can be successful. And I say to my own children at home you know and like Peter I've got you know several children I've got boys who are passionate about football would probably much rather be on their PC or their Xbox or football training or playing football than they would be um training for exams. But but the one thing that I think I've tried to get across to the students here and my own children is if you're gonna do a study session at home for 20 minutes or 25 minutes, you know put your mobile phone on flight mode or put it under your pillow you know close down the windows on your computer that are going to distract you know and actually use that 25 minutes for 25 minutes study not not you know looking at Snapchat notifications and Instagrams and you know you know but actually study for 25 minutes and then take a break and then another 25 minutes and then take a break and little and often because actually sometimes students can be in their room for two or three hours and have done no more than 10 or 15 minutes revision if they get it wrong. So you know just little and often and use the techniques that are most likely to work. So I've said I said to my my son who did his GCSEs two years ago who's now in his A level year flashcards and past papers. And he was flash cards and past papers all the way he made them himself question on one side simple answer on the back lots of past papers looking at the kind of style of the questions that you might get asked and the looking at how you would be expected to formulate an answer. And yes there are many other strategies outside of that but what I say to the students here and what I say to my own children is if you use flashcards and past papers and you train with them really well and you start early enough and you have a study plan and you don't get distracted when you study, you won't go far wrong.

William Wadsworth: 29:44

I think it's really nice how you you both talked about in different ways kind of keeping that message of simplicity you know it's very clear in the same way that we've got that clarity of routine in the classroom we've got that clarity of you know how we use our independent study time. And I think there's a tendency sometimes to to learn about all this wonderful sort of science of learning all these different ways we can apply all these different techniques and and and kind of sometimes the message can almost get a little bit confused to the learner and and we talk about so many different things you know sometimes it's hard for a learner to know which way to turn and which way thing to focus on first.

Peter Lee: 30:14

So I really like that approach of just keep it simple focus on a you know a couple of really big really important things and another theme that you both mentioned I think which is kind of really interesting the the the the benefits perhaps of staying analog and you know there are so many digital tools available to us now really popular with students and but perhaps an argument that we may be uh well served by staying in the digit in the non-digital world uh staying in the analogue world uh and and avoiding those distractions yes and and I I I'd echo that William I mean I talk about the analogy of um remember when at uh primary school when you you were learning the words in a tin which which is still still still going on and it's just it's that simplistic isn't it it was look and cover and so forth and I I bit like Andy we we talk with students about that we talk with parents we do parent briefings we we actually we're doing a year 10 briefing which we've never done next Monday um because of we did our year 11 one that we always do the start of the year September and we go here's the roadmap here's there and and quite a few parents quite rightly said oh we we we could have done with this a year ago and we said oh okay then okay let's do that but a lot of that is around some of the parental support and and sessions that we do we uh we put on parent workshops and one of the most popular ones has been around helping your child study at home so it's it's the stuff Andy talks about you know getting rid of the mobile phone etc and creating those conditions.

William Wadsworth: 31:29

Brilliant. I wonder if you could maybe share just a brief reflection on on kind of what this has meant for your school's performance because I know you you both yeah do do do wonderful wonderful things for your for your learners in terms of the outcomes at the end. And any kind of closing tip for other schools listening to this today.

Andy Green: 31:43

I mean f first of all I would say that look it's it's been a real privilege um for me to to be able to visit highly successful schools and pick up tips nationally so I would encourage any listener that has the opportunity to to be any and any school leader, um subject level leader, senior leader, wh whatever that has the opportunity to be outward facing and go and visit highly successful schools I I would encourage you to do that because those networks are are fantastic and the sharing of resources as well between people in those networks is also like very time saving and and very beneficial. You know I've been fortunate to do that and I would encourage anybody else to do that. I would also encourage I would encourage anybody to listen to your people you know your podcast and and similar because you get a lot out of that and and and and I think you can pick up some some real tips there. But I suppose what I would say at school level is get the conditions for learning right and we have to work on that every day. You've got to make sure that the classrooms are really orderly do the tours around the school every day to make sure that you know to keep things the culture right is is effortful. So I I would say that would be a a top tip for me and I suppose the the other thing I would say is you know everything around the science of learning can sound quite complex. So when it comes to relying that to students and relying that to parents you know just keep it as simple as possible you know with the kind of conversations around how the memory works and you know how things can go from working memory to long-term memory and you know spaced repetition and dual coding and interleaving etc etc you know you you can get in in cognitive load theory it can become quite complex and I just think you know think about what is it that the staff really need to know what is it that the parents really need to know what do the students really need to know and then really support them and help them through your teaching and learning frameworks your curriculum routines and the support that you give to students at a whole class and individual level and the same with parents just just make sure that it reflects you know the things that you think in terms of best bets are going to have the most impact.

Peter Lee: 34:08

I'd echo all of what Andy says there and and and in terms of you know for me setting up a school the priorities were uh where attendance and behaviour the children are in and they're happy and they're safe uh and the behaviour's good then teachers can teach and children can learn but I think it's it's about it it's about having a really clear house style on how you want teaching to be and again I go back to what what Andy said I I almost shudder now when I think about the start of my teaching career and I was you know having to engage the children because I'm competing with the world they're in and so we do like you know cricket um like in like testing their knowledge on we're doing the Weimar Republic we'll do a cricket exercise actually would have been just easier to just get them to learn things and do a 20 question quiz and and and so forth. And I think I think we've moved a long way from kind of that and not not the edutainment of previously and actually it can actually be fun to learn facts. It is fun to know things children feel pride to know things and I think that's the the the kind of the the tipping point for me in my kind of career and it's creating those conditions so that teachers have that confidence. I love seeing I went to a school this week in Blackpool phenomenal and every classroom is set up the same bit like we we have here we don't I I don't have displays that are 10 years old the room is focused on the teachers the expert the visualiser is at the front the teacher is modelling it all the children are engaged using you know questioning strategies to keep every child engaged with you know the point Andy raised around group work in all honesty group work doesn't work and it's the best bet stuff we talked about earlier because in a group work of four then the one child's going to do all the work and the three are going to be passengers uh you know maybe maybe two at kind of best and I think thank that that has been the kind of the cultural shift that we've seen in education it's you know the the sil there isn't a silver bullet out there apart from attendance maybe but I think you know you go and visit all these schools and and you know everything in common with them they are following these these kind of metrics uh and these kind of ways and this this kind of playbook and blueprints uh for doing that and and that's what I think we've done here and certainly when I saw that at Copleston as well.

Andy Green: 36:08

And and I suppose to back up what you've just said Peter I suppose my other top tip particularly for people like me and Peter who've been in the profession a long while you know things change you know things change and the science of learning and our understanding of learning and how schools work and how students learn best changes. You know 15 20 years ago we all had classrooms that were where the walls were papered with displays. But the cognitive theory of cognitive overload would say have three or four key messages on posters in the room that this that are standardized and that you'll see across every classroom in the school because children need to focus on the learning. So I guess my final comment really would be as we start to learn more over time and as research teaches us what works and what helps students to learn best and become more um and achieve more in terms of their academic outcomes which ultimately is what we want for all of our children in all of our schools and I've never yet been to a school where any where anybody is not passionate about doing the very best for their students I would say we all including me have to make sure that we move with the times. That's really important.

William Wadsworth: 37:25

Well on that note Andy Green Peter Lee thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. Thank you well thanks again Andy and Pete uh for joining today. Really great to have you both on the podcast and wishing your students every success with their upcoming exam. And to everyone listening please do give me your feedback on today's episode. It was obviously slightly different uh in terms of our content and frame than normal uh I'd love to hear what you felt about it. Uh did you enjoy it? Was it helpful? Please do give me your feedback via the comments uh if you're listening on Spotify or YouTube and or if you're on another platform that doesn't have a comments box you can hit the send a message link send us a message link which is in the episode description and that'll let you send us a message via SMS text message. So looking a little bit ahead next week we will be hearing from Alex Quigley on his popular new book Why Learning Fails and What to do about it in which we'll be exploring eight common issues that cause challenges when learning and how to overcome them. Really I think quite a helpful framework for anyone who's either teaching others or trying to learn themselves to diagnose what's going wrong when we hit struggles and roadblocks in the learning process, what we can do to get on stuck and move forward. So I hope you'll be able to join us then. But just before we take off today I'd love to close today's episode with a little uh triplet of invitations. These are rare invitations aimed mainly at our teachers and educators who listen to the show, especially if you're based here in the UK. So invitation number one we talked today about the value of visiting other schools and watching them in action and learning from that. So I wanted to extend an invitation to to my listener base. If you are yourself a teacher and educator and working on how to teach study skills, revision skills effectively, you are very welcome to come and watch me in action in my own teaching in revision strategy. I obviously don't work out of a single school but rather I work across a range of top schools around the UK, helping them deliver really world-class revision technique training that like I believe is is of a level you simply won't find anywhere else. And the reason I've been able to get to this place is I've had the kind of rare luxury of being able to specialise in teaching this very specific subject of revision strategy, like exclusively this is my full-time profession. And over the years I've built quite a playbook of practical ways to help learners apply the science of learning as well as various teaching methods and exercises to get the message to land and get those crucial skills to stick. So if you'd like to join me at an upcoming workshop I'm running in your area, you're welcome to drop my assistant Katie an email that's at Katie at examstudieexpert dot com, Katie with an IE, so K-A-T-I-E, at examstudyexpert.com and we'll fix up a time for you to come when I'm when I'm teaching in at a school in your area. So invitation number two, over 75,000 students to date have taken part in my research programme, the revision census uh which I designed back in the day with the great Professor Henry Rödinger himself. And participating in the research is open to any school and it's a really excellent way for you to get a good insight into what are your students up to today in terms of their revision technique. It's a really really simple to do the research. It's a quick survey that your students fill out online and our research partner schools get a really great report breaking down the kind of the data, the student voice data from the students in terms of what they what they're doing well today in terms of their revision efficacy, where the opportunities for improvement lie, as well as a little bit of perspective, you know, how they're sort of stacking up versus other schools, you know, as I say we've we've we've surveyed 75,000 students today so we've got quite a lot of perspective to bring to bear. Running the survey couldn't be easier really beneficial really good thing to do if you're focusing on revision strategy and helping your students make progress in that area. Whether you've been working hard on it over the years or whether it's something you're just starting your the kind of relatively early stages with your journey on. Again if you're interested in getting involved with the research and would like to find out more about how to get up and running, do drop Katie an email Katie at examstudieexpert.com and we'll get you uh get you some more information and and and and explain how to how to get on board. And then invitation number three, finally, uh I'm always glad to hear from new schools who'd like to work with me in their school to help level up the standard of exam revision at your school to help your students hit their top grades particularly in the GCSE and A level exams. This more than anything else is is my kind of main profession. It's it's my my day job is teaching revision strategy and I've delivered over 5,000 hours of workshops in my seven years that I have been doing this as my profession. I absolutely love working with students if in in in workshops to teach them all about how to be super super effective in their revision in the run-up to their GTCs or A levels always has a really big impact and many of my schools now are hitting their best ever GTC and A level results. I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm the only factor behind that. You know the schools are working very hard in lots of areas but both students and staff at those schools many times have kind of turned around and said what an important component of knowing how to revise really, really well has been in achieving those kind of record results that many of many of my regular schools now get. I also love running CPD Twilights and inset dates for teachers who are hungry to help their students thrive and which effectively turns your whole staff body into experts and passionate advocates for effective revision, helping learners hear consistent messages about how to study well across all of their subjects. So again if you're interested in that you can drop Katie an email Katie at examstudyexperts dot com. And I'm also on the books with speakers for schools and the learning line two of the kind of the major CPD and and student speaking booking agencies here in the UK so you're welcome to contact through through through those agencies as well. Any of the above is absolutely fine. So I'll put all details in the show notes for how to get in touch and we can have a chat about your needs and and get get uh get the ball rolling and I'd love to support you at your school. And with that thank you so much for tuning in today. It's been a real pleasure as always to have your company here on the show and I look forward to catching you next week.

Speaker 3: 43:41

Well that was good wasn't it I found myself taking notes. If you need a reminder of anything from today head to the website for a write up of this episode as well as lots more top knock advice and resources that's examstudyexpert.com See you next time.