What if you could get a front-row seat to a riveting conversation about the construction industry, entrepreneurship, and real estate development? This episode has all that and more, as we sit down with Graham Carter and Jesse Unke from Maven Consulting and Vertex Developments. Join us as we start off with a light-hearted chat about the impact of Black Friday on SD card availability, before delving into the state of the construction industry, sharing tales of securing workers and maintaining company values, and the current projects that are reshaping Vancouver.
Imagine starting as a small consulting business and then realizing the immense potential of your software product. We trace the journey of Trevor and Graham, from their days of coding and forestry to selling services to BC Hydro. The duo also recounts their meeting, the importance of mentorship and the audacity of taking risks. As we move on through the episode, a compelling narrative unfolds about the birth of Vertex, a real estate investment company. We share our childhood experiences with real estate, the hurdles we faced in our first project, and the mindset required to thrive in this industry.
There's no denying that Vancouver's housing crisis is a complex issue. We dive into the heart of it, discussing the challenges in infrastructure development and the burden that falls on lower socioeconomic areas when adding density. The episode takes an interesting turn as we connect homelessness with the housing crisis, debunking myths along the way. We also talk about the evolving role of engineers in construction and how the industry is shifting toward a more streamlined approach. Rounded off with a look at personal responsibility and the changing landscape of engineering, our conversation provides a wealth of knowledge and thought-provoking stories from the construction industry.
PODCAST INFO:
the Site Visit Website: https://www.sitemaxsystems.com/podcast
the Site Visit on Buzzsprout: https://thesitevisit.buzzsprout.com/269424
the Site Visit on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-site-visit/id1456494446
the Site Visit on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5cp4qJE5ExZmO3EwldN1HH
FOLLOW ALONG:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/thesitevisit
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesitevisit
What if you could get a front-row seat to a riveting conversation about the construction industry, entrepreneurship, and real estate development? This episode has all that and more, as we sit down with Graham Carter and Jesse Unke from Maven Consulting and Vertex Developments. Join us as we start off with a light-hearted chat about the impact of Black Friday on SD card availability, before delving into the state of the construction industry, sharing tales of securing workers and maintaining company values, and the current projects that are reshaping Vancouver.
Imagine starting as a small consulting business and then realizing the immense potential of your software product. We trace the journey of Trevor and Graham, from their days of coding and forestry to selling services to BC Hydro. The duo also recounts their meeting, the importance of mentorship and the audacity of taking risks. As we move on through the episode, a compelling narrative unfolds about the birth of Vertex, a real estate investment company. We share our childhood experiences with real estate, the hurdles we faced in our first project, and the mindset required to thrive in this industry.
There's no denying that Vancouver's housing crisis is a complex issue. We dive into the heart of it, discussing the challenges in infrastructure development and the burden that falls on lower socioeconomic areas when adding density. The episode takes an interesting turn as we connect homelessness with the housing crisis, debunking myths along the way. We also talk about the evolving role of engineers in construction and how the industry is shifting toward a more streamlined approach. Rounded off with a look at personal responsibility and the changing landscape of engineering, our conversation provides a wealth of knowledge and thought-provoking stories from the construction industry.
PODCAST INFO:
the Site Visit Website: https://www.sitemaxsystems.com/podcast
the Site Visit on Buzzsprout: https://thesitevisit.buzzsprout.com/269424
the Site Visit on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-site-visit/id1456494446
the Site Visit on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5cp4qJE5ExZmO3EwldN1HH
FOLLOW ALONG:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/thesitevisit
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesitevisit
Technical difficulties. This morning, do you know what's weird thing is? I ran all around Yale town trying to find an SD card. Now you were saying Black Friday.
Speaker 2:I think Black Friday was the cause of the lack of SD cards.
Speaker 1:Is it the cause of a lot of other dysfunctions?
Speaker 3:Black Friday I think so, yeah, I think so Cyber Monday too, right, Cyber Monday.
Speaker 1:Maybe it was Cyber Monday that wiped him out. Well, are the deals really that good? Like, actually, I don't know. I don't know about you guys, but just got a new condo and I'm like Wayfair is my new thing.
Speaker 3:Oh, we bought a sectional on Cyber Monday from Wayfair, did you? How much of a discount was it? It was about 20%.
Speaker 1:But it doesn't have 20% sales all the time.
Speaker 3:Check the price in two weeks. Well, that's the thing I've been seen on Instagram too, where some people are going into electronic stores and stuff like that. There's the sales sticker and then they pull out the one behind it and you can see. It's just a game right, it's all marketing right. Oh, black Friday, cyber Monday right.
Speaker 1:Well, at Best Buy they have the digital ones.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay, have you seen those? Oh, the digital signs, yeah.
Speaker 1:The digital price. Little things Superstore has that too, I've seen, yeah, and then Home Depot has it as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah so in their appliance section where I've also been. Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1:Midlands pretty expensive. Sorry, Dave, yeah.
Speaker 2:At Midlands.
Speaker 1:All right. So, yeah, I'm pretty excited about this podcast. Guys, jesse, you and I are going to be doing a few of these, that's right. Well, we'll see after this technical difficulty.
Speaker 2:We'll see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he may be like I'm not doing this anymore, but I think this is going to be a good one. Yeah, welcome to the Site.
Speaker 3:Visit podcast Leadership and Perspective from Construction with your host, james Falkner Business as usual, has been for so long now that it goes back to what we were talking about before and getting the reset button. You know you read all the books. You read the email. You read Scaling Up. You read it's a Great. You know I could go on.
Speaker 1:We've got a place where we found the secret serum. We found the secret potion. We can get the workers in. We know where to get them.
Speaker 3:One time I was on a job too for a while, and actually we got a special concrete and I ordered like a green finished patio.
Speaker 2:Oh, friends of the Site, showers days, I was down at Dallas and a guy just hit me up on LinkedIn out of the blue and said he was driving from Oklahoma to Dallas to meet with me because he heard the favorite connect platform on your guys' podcast.
Speaker 3:Pwnit Crusher from the bottom of it, and we celebrate these values every single day.
Speaker 1:Let's get down to it. Here we are. This is special, so we have Graham Carter.
Speaker 2:Yes, sir.
Speaker 1:How are you, Graham?
Speaker 2:I'm amazing how are you doing?
Speaker 1:I'm doing well Good, a little wet though from walking around the rain. And Jesse Unkie. So, oh, is it Unkie? Right, it's Unkie. You bet Unkie, unkie. Okay, where's that name from? It's German, it's a German German, is German Nice? Yes, that's right, that's right. And Gloria Bastard's, that's right, where that's in Gloria Bastard's.
Speaker 3:Well, it's funny because when I was a kid they used to call me like monkey, unkie, stuff like that, and I remember my grandpa telling me tell them to call you a hunky unkie. And I didn't get it at the time. Oh, because you're a hunk, because I'm a hunk, obviously.
Speaker 1:Are you?
Speaker 3:I don't know. Ask my wife Jen, See what she says.
Speaker 1:So you guys met at the gym.
Speaker 3:This is where you were hunking and hunking out Hunky unkie, right, yeah, I was doing my posing routine in the mirror and then Graham came up and was like hey, he's like this is perfect, right?
Speaker 1:So let's just chat a little bit. So there's two organizations. There's Maven and Vertex. So Vertex V-E-R, t-e-x, v-e-r-t-e-x Correct, I remember a Vortex a long time ago as a development company. They still around. Have you heard of them? No, they're not Okay. So Maven Engineering Consulting Company and Vertex is a development company Real Estate.
Speaker 2:Real Estate residential real estate.
Speaker 1:Residential real estate. So, focusing on what kind of projects are you doing?
Speaker 2:So well, long term vision. Want to build towers but got to walk before you can run, so we started. We've got two townhouse projects, one's completed, One's in construction right now, and then we've got a six-story wood frame rental building that's in development. Development permit was submitted yesterday and we've got a concrete 20, 25-story concrete tower in planning. So, trying to go up the food chain and where are those All? In the city of Vancouver, okay, east Van and kind of west side.
Speaker 1:Okay, cool. So this is like I sort of you know eight condos, eight floors, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, six-story wood frame Got it and there's obviously a big need for rental housing in the city.
Speaker 1:I've always wondered about the wood frame construction in Vancouver in the winter, as it just gets rained on the whole house. They don't even dry out, dazz heaters, really, and that plywood just gets, just works.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I first came to the city and I saw that I'd scratched my head you think it okay, it seems to work. But that kind of stick build is a very slow, inefficient process, very expensive. So on our project we're actually looking at some different technologies. To bring you know the word modules are very overused, but to have some panels that are just placed in, everything's done in a factory. So just quicker, cheaper, easier.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I saw on LinkedIn you post something about a visit you did recently, I think to a local modular builder.
Speaker 2:right, yeah, so you know the word modular. I think people use this idea of container homes, yeah, which is not the case. Which is not the case, right, and so you know there's different. There's a couple of companies in the lower mainland that do various versions of a modular or a panel curtain, wall system, where you kind of bring panels in and just slot them in like Lego, right, yeah, and you've got all the insulation, all the vapor barrier, all the fire stopping, everything's ready to go and some of them actually have all electrical with connectors and that's all dialed in.
Speaker 2:Some do yeah, yeah, that's pretty cool. So that's pretty cool, and yeah.
Speaker 1:All right. So and then, jesse, let's just chat, sure, just so people have contact. So you're involved in an organization on the Maven side, that's right, so you are CEO of Maven.
Speaker 3:That's right, that's right. So I joined. Wow, I joined Big CEO.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, how does that feel to now be a CEO? It feels pretty awesome.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it feels pretty awesome, yeah, and I think we've kept in touch over the years and it's kind of cool to look back now and see where I'm at. And I think we were chatting before how I met Graham and Trevor Graham's business partner as well, who's the co-founder of Maven and when they had approached me about coming in as president CEO, I was kind of blown away, it's like, because I've been watching these guys for a while and it's something that it's an area and infrastructure and utilities that I it's comfortable for me and where I've come up in my career. So when we were having chats about what it would look like with me joining and stuff like that, I really started to get excited because I was feeding off the energy of Graham and Trevor as well and I think we all we're all young driven guys and I think the other maybe I don't know about young yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I was going to say I didn't know how young any was. Yeah yeah. I like to it's a bit of gray going on right.
Speaker 3:It's whatever scale I guess you use, but I think it's for me it's important. The life scale, yeah, exactly, but I think it's important too. I mean, one of the things I tell folks that ask me about Maven and making the move to Maven and joining Maven is that not only is the kind of work we do exciting and something that I have expertise in, but also our values are really close to my personal values. Right Like family is a cornerstone for all of us at Maven and you know Graham's got kids, I've got my daughter as well, so I think it's we're really aligned there, like we work hard but we also know when to turn it off and focus and be present with our families. So that was something that really that was the selling, one of the selling points for me.
Speaker 1:I'm like I could work with these guys, so yeah, so that seems like you have somebody very capable for this part of the business, or yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Those banners yeah.
Speaker 1:So how did maybe let's just get to an origin story of you know which one of these companies was first? How did it all work? Like you and Trevor.
Speaker 2:how did that happen? Yeah, so Trevor and I met. I moved from New Zealand, so I'm originally from New Zealand. That's why I talk funny still.
Speaker 1:Do you talk to yeah?
Speaker 2:20 years later, you know, you never lose it right.
Speaker 1:It's the extreme sports capital world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is actually.
Speaker 1:Do you know why that is?
Speaker 2:Fungi.
Speaker 1:It's because of the insurance.
Speaker 2:You don't need insurance, no.
Speaker 1:No, there's a in New Zealand. This is what I've I've listened to on other podcasts, etc. Is there is a dual responsibility of the company and the individual, the participant. So if you jump off a bungee right, there's a 50-50 liability on the operator and the participant. Really, oh interesting, I didn't know that and what that does is that increases the amount of safety.
Speaker 3:Gotcha.
Speaker 1:Right, because if you go to the one at Whistler, you sign off your life. No matter what they do wrong, it's your fault.
Speaker 3:Right, right.
Speaker 1:In New Zealand it's not the case.
Speaker 2:So there you go, interesting, that's why that's why there's it's.
Speaker 1:You know you're.
Speaker 2:Well it's, and we're half crazy too, so it probably helps, we're willing to deal with this stuff. Yeah, cool, okay, so yeah. So I moved here 2004. So almost 20 years, next year there you go. Wow, 2004. Yeah, I was a young guy and Did you come with your parents?
Speaker 2:No, I came with my wife, got married. Oh, why Got married? I worked for a couple of years the engineering background in New Zealand and I was a huge basketball fan. I'm 6'6". You can't see me on the podcast, but I'm a big guy and I used to love, you know, having a fascination, I guess, as a teenager, with North America and basketball and all things associated. And my wife's got some family here in Canada and Vancouver and, being part of the Commonwealth, you know I could never get a visa to go to the States. It was almost impossible. So we came to Canada because it was the next best thing and, typical story, came on a one year visa and never left.
Speaker 1:So what was the first job you got when you were here?
Speaker 2:I actually was an entrepreneur. I started a biodiesel manufacturing company, biodiesel Biodiesel, making diesel out of used cooking oil.
Speaker 1:Oh, like the horrible stuff that gets sucked out of these fryer. You got it that stuff stinks hey how did you? How did you, did you get a facility that converted?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we ended up. I mean a facility actually in Washington State to serve the border.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay. You need the visa for that? No.
Speaker 2:I just, I just. I just crossed the border of Wrigley.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2:You're doing what?
Speaker 1:everyone does. You're like, let's go here first and then.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't work in the States, so I was good. But, yeah, I met a guy, literally a German guy, who was a mad scientist, literally a mad scientist, and he came up with this way of making biodiesel more efficiently and quicker. So we I teamed up with him, through a family connection actually, and we ended up selling this technology to this group in the States and we opened this biodiesel facility in Wattcombe County, just over the border.
Speaker 1:Wattcombe County. Yeah, so nice.
Speaker 2:That was my first job in BC, and actually shortly thereafter I met Trevor because so did you sell that thing?
Speaker 1:You sold it.
Speaker 2:Oh, I made no money, it was, it was gave it away.
Speaker 3:Appreciate the honesty.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was not well, yeah, I was. I was in my 20s and, you know, wanted to be entrepreneurial and so that was my first thing and cost me money to participate, but that's all good. It was a great learning experience and I met Trevor and when that you know I used to, I was a consultant back in New Zealand to for a forestry company. Actually, my background in engineering is software and hardware interfacing. So I helped design these machines for testing wood quality and sawmills and I was going back and forth to New Zealand, australia. We had a big, very large forestry company that was. We were doing tests of these, this product that I helped design, and then we were doing installations of this product around Australia, new, zealand and the first year I was here I think I did I did eight trips back to New Zealand and Australia.
Speaker 2:I'd go for four weeks at a time and I come back every time, put my key in the lock at home and wonder if my wife's change of locks right. She's like what are you doing? No doubt yeah. So after a while I realized this is not a healthy marriage fulfilling prospect by leaving my wife in Canada and going back to New Zealand, australia.
Speaker 2:Yeah no kidding Running around. So I realized that I had to find a job locally, and so my first two jobs here really were not local in Canada and I met Trevor and Trevor was at the time- so where'd you meet him?
Speaker 1:How did that go now?
Speaker 2:I actually met him at church, believe it or not.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we were out of church and he was out of church and we were there and we got chatting and he was working at BC Transmission Corp at the time as an engineer and he had an interesting job because he was really an interface between the CFO or the finance group and the engineering group, helping the finance group understand these engineering project plans. And engineers would all try and game a project plan to get their project funded because they spent a lot of time scoping it out and he would try and help this finance group understand is this actually a good project? Because they all sound like they're the best project that would ever exist, right, Right and best investment utility could make. And so well, how do you know which ones are actually the good ones?
Speaker 2:So Trevor had this interesting job in the middle between these two groups, trying to help the bun flight every year on budgets. And so he designs a couple of tools in Excel and he said, because I had a software background, we met, we got chatting. He goes oh, sounds like you know how to make software, so you know, I know enough to be dangerous. And he said well, I've got this idea to take these Excel tools that I've made and turn them into a software product. And so he said, can you help me with that?
Speaker 1:And so, since I had nothing to do, and so what coding background do you have then? What languages do you know?
Speaker 2:So I started off and well, it was C++ and Java was my background, and then, with this forestry stuff that I was doing, I got into this. It's called visual programming. It's LabView is a pretty well known tool. It's a pretty interesting tool. So we used LabView to program and yeah. So Trevor said, hey, can you help me? You know, build the software product. I was like, oh sure, why not? You know a couple of young guys no money and wanting to be successful. So we said, well, we don't know anything. We know that to have software you need cash. To build software product. We've got a couple of developers in a room for a year or two because I knew I couldn't actually write the software. I could kind of manage the process.
Speaker 1:You could have a contact analysis.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I could kind of frame it out and architect it. And so we said, well, we got to need to earn some money so we can pay the rent. And so we ended up starting an engineering. Trevor said, well, I know a bunch of people at BC Hydro so maybe we could do some consulting work. And he had had a little consulting company straight out of university and, you know, had some of his classmates.
Speaker 1:So what kind of consulting do you suddenly call at BC Hydro? I'm like, hey, by the way, I think you need this.
Speaker 2:Trevor's background was in maybe you should have him on sometime when you can talk about it in detail but his background was in maintenance planning, helping BC Hydro plan the maintenance and the asset utilization right. So how do you operate your asset and when do you replace things and those kinds of plans. So that was his background. So he called up a couple of the people that he knew that he used to work for and he did some co-ops at BC Hydro and said, hey, you know, can I come back as a consultant?
Speaker 2:And at that time this was around 2006, bc Hydro were just going through politically. I think the wins were that they didn't want BC Hydro to be empire building, so they were trying to get rid of staff and bring in consultants. So that you know, there was a bit of a political perception at the time that you know we don't have this empire with. You know there's pensions and all this other stuff that you have to go to do. So they were looking for consultants. So we kind of walked into this change in BC Hydro's staffing strategy, I guess, and we learned how to sell, like we actually took some, a couple of courses on sales and a methodical, logical approach to selling.
Speaker 3:And those are sales CDs. That they're well, they're mp3 is now, but I know I've listened to, I've listened to bed and there's what's like it's called the max sex selling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, it's okay it's, it's there.
Speaker 2:Incredible, they may be a millionaire like, yeah, there's no other endorsement than that. Yeah, nice, and so we started selling. So we sold services to be hydro, and on the side I'd spent my time Trying to build software. So that's kind of the start of Trevor and Graham. Sure, and that was it, so that and that was the maven beginnings.
Speaker 2:No, okay so there's a bit more to the story. So we need four hours to tell the story. But I was coming to Clare management corporation. We built that company to about 50 employees. 95% of revenue was in various departments. In a busy are, such a big organization. We had many different contracts and key contacts and whatever and our software we do. One of the good pieces of advice is, as an entrepreneur, was that to put your software in a separate business, not have them all mixed together. That was a good piece of advice that we got because you know we were trying to find people who could help us to gone through this before. You know, one of my key things as an entrepreneur was in this town. If you want to have somebody advise, you pick up the phone and call them.
Speaker 3:Like it's not hard.
Speaker 2:This town is so connected that's right you can get to anyone you want in this town. Yeah, and so I picked up the phone and phone one of the former CEOs of BC hydro. His name is Michael Costello great guy. I said, hey, can you be a mentor to us? And he was in his 60s at the time, I think, and just retired and wanted to help some young guys. So he came on our advisory board. Great, awesome. But that's a story in this town. Don't be afraid to pick up the phone and talk to people.
Speaker 3:That's cool, yeah yeah, you know, I was on a another podcast recently where we talked about mentoring and the fact that that you just need to put yourself out there and you'd be so surprised that when you ask people For help, how many people are actually interested in will say, yeah, sure, I'll help you out, and I think there's just that perception that you're bothering somebody or right, that you just need to grab the bull by the horn sometimes. That's a cool example of that, right?
Speaker 2:so yeah, yeah, and so we are the engineering company. We ended up. The software started to take off and we driven. I realized the software potentially was a massive opportunity, like you know, very, very large. We thought, well, let's swing, for the fences. Were young, we got no kids at the time, got a couple wives and to, but really, let's, let's go for it. So we end up selling our engineering company. So very interesting process to go from starting a business, growing it and selling it that whole cycle was very fascinating to learn.
Speaker 2:we put all our energy into the software business, which Was it very, very interesting ride Dive into that today. But the outcome of that was we ended up selling our software very first. Actual, proper implementation was the largest, one of the largest utilities in the US Semper energy down in California, southern California gas company in southern and, and Semper was a litigant gas across across Southern California and so that was interesting. We raise some venture capital in the back of that and as an entrepreneur, that was the best thing I ever did and the worst thing I ever did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, why? Why was that the case?
Speaker 2:because the VCs don't understand the business they manage from a spreadsheet right so China when the industry change in 2008.
Speaker 2:So you might remember the GFC. No, it software was got hard to sell and it software was in this transition between enterprise and software as a service, as a model, and so utilities were really Perceived and rightly so that they didn't want to innovate and they were worried about customer data, so they didn't want to go to a SAS online model, they wanted to have enterprise on on site on premises, stuff on servers like Nobody wanted cloud no one wanted cloud at that time, and so we realized that we had, like the enterprise software that we had was millions dollars to buy and install and people got new job totals.
Speaker 2:It was very disruptive as around how they plan their projects and so we realized we had to move to a SAS model. But the VCs had a seven year ready return. They had to provide on their money. They invest in 10 companies and they know that two of them are going to make it and the restaurant, and so we felt victim to that rate. So they didn't understand the business. We said, like we need more money because we've got a change from an enterprise platform to a SAS model. They said, and we need a couple million bucks to do that. And they said, no, we're not, we're not going on that journey. So we ended up selling, selling the business and Trevor being the technical guy, I was the CEO in the sales guy. I got turf the next day and Trevor got the two year golden handcuffs. Got to go with the new buyer and and be the product guru.
Speaker 2:So I actually went back to New Zealand for a couple years and I ran a carbon footprinting company and all kinds of other stuff and I took six months off. My daughter was born. My first daughter was born on a fray on the Wednesday. I quit on the Friday before that, 2012 2012. Ok, so I just took six months off and tried to forget this parenting thing. Jesse, I know you've been going to.
Speaker 3:That could be a whole nother podcast right there talking about that.
Speaker 2:But after about six months more, I said OK, you got to go and do something. You annoying me now you're in the house too much, yeah, and I surf in too much and playing golf and all that fun stuff. And so I phone Trevor, said what are you doing, man? And he goes. Well, I've done my two years and I live in Northland, I'm trying to reach me every day and kind of done with that commute. I said, well, maybe we should get back on the horse and we did well at Clara first company, so maybe we should just do some of that because it's, you know, relatively easy. So we I flew back in 2013 and we started Maven, february 2013. That's 10 years ago.
Speaker 1:So what was the the Concept around the name Maven?
Speaker 2:So Maven actually is actually. It's a Hebrew word and it means someone who's a genius in their field.
Speaker 1:So Well, we've heard someone called a Maven before.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's something that's been a term for yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:You basically just took off that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we just took off that because you know, when you start a company you got to find a domain name.
Speaker 3:That no one else has stolen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that kind of makes sense and you can get behind. And so when I was way back and just out of high school actually started a little software consulting business and it was just me, but it's just kind of. I was kind of a sole proprietor and I did a little bit of software coding for some guys on the side and I called it Maven technology, ok, so I kind of knew the name. I thought, oh, that's a good name, and somehow Trevor agreed enough, we went.
Speaker 1:Dusted it off. You're like, yeah, that's right, here we go yeah.
Speaker 2:So we I flew back in January and February, we kicked off Maven and you know time, my story is all about timing and, frankly, lots of times I've had the worst timing possible, and Maven's introduction was worst timing possible Because at that time first thing we did is go to BC Hydro. So, hey guys, this is 2014. 2013.
Speaker 1:13. Ok 13.
Speaker 2:Ok, at the time we called our guys we knew from a couple of years, from a few four or five years earlier, said, hey, we're back, we're doing the tour. Great coffees, great lunches. Yeah, it was OK, got some work for us. Oh, sorry about that, but we've actually just signed multi-year engineering contracts. We've gone to this model with these master service agreements, yeah, and we've just signed in these seven year contracts with a bunch of companies in. This is in January, february of 2013. They were signed in November 2012. Like, we missed by two and a half months, yeah, yikes. So I just moved my family back halfway around the world, right. And I was like, oh, that's not very great. So we had to innovate, right. So guess what we did? We started applying for RFPs and other promises. We're like well, bcr is close to us for the next seven years probably, so we've got to go elsewhere. So we ended up winning a really large contract that sass power actually providing construction officers for transmission line.
Speaker 1:Saskatchewan.
Speaker 2:Saskatchewan.
Speaker 1:Well, ok, crazy. So that's, yeah, you're traveling again.
Speaker 3:We found our fortunes in the middle of Canada. Yeah, that's right. Well, I remember you telling me a story about seeing an RFP that was out and it was, and then it wasn't on your radar for whatever reason, and it was due in two days or something like that, and you were able to tell us a little bit about that. Were you able to throw that team together overnight, basically, and then you ended up winning it too, because I remember you told me that story. It definitely motivated me.
Speaker 2:When we're going after some of the stuff we're doing now, right, Well, it's about hustle right, and sometimes there's this dichotomy, as an entrepreneur, of strategic versus opportunistic and you got to find the balance between two. So you absolutely want to have a strategy, you want to have a plan, you got to execute a plan long enough to actually realize the benefits, but sometimes you've got to just hustle and just stuff happens. So, yeah, we had an RFP popped up and I said to Trevor I think we could probably do okay at this. He's like, well, it's due in two days. Like what are you doing? I said I'm going to respond to this thing. So I went out and I found four people on LinkedIn Shout out for LinkedIn.
Speaker 2:Nice, yeah, you see you're the LinkedIn rock star in here. I'm just learning from your, from your great a ways, but I try, yeah. So look, I found some people and we responded to the RFP. I remember sitting in my at my desk and time I was working from home in my basement it's like three o'clock in the morning I'm still writing this silly RFP with all the stuff, right, not silly, but you know all this detailed safety plans and environmental plan, all the stuff that you needed. I'm there, keyboard, worrying away and guess what we won? We won this RFP and now it's, you know, a cornerstone contract for our business 10 years later.
Speaker 2:So you know those stories and I'm not advocating just. You know throwing stuff against. You know paying against the wall, hoping that it sticks, but in all situations. But sometimes those things do pay off and you know we've done a really good job on that contract over the years to you know mature it and invest in it and develop it. But you know we, sometimes you just got to do stuff and it works, that's right so, and so this has been going on.
Speaker 1:So 2013 through. Now you're coming to. You guys have a 10 year.
Speaker 2:We had a big party.
Speaker 1:It was great, great time. So what was the month? February?
Speaker 2:2023.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, nice.
Speaker 1:Were you around at that time?
Speaker 3:No, so I joined in. I would join at the end of July of this year of 2023.
Speaker 1:I missed the party. I missed the party. We'll have another one. Yeah, so were you CEO for a while then, or who?
Speaker 2:was Trevor was CEO. Trevor's a CEO. He's a big boy. I'm just the guy that supports on the side. No, we are Trevor and I really split up. We both caught ourselves. Principles, I think, right, no. No, we've got the co-founder title, but really, you know it doesn't matter who's got the title. We're here to work together. He's the big cheese now and we've had the battle on to him, but you know we're here to support and work for Jesse now and support him. You know we're, in terms of a structure, where Trevor and I are the board, but you know we want to support Jesse and make Jesse as successful as we can.
Speaker 1:Cool, okay. So how did you? I mean, is there more meat in between this and then the development company? So how do we? How?
Speaker 2:do we go? Yeah, what's the transition? One of your questions here was what's the most insane thing I've ever did at starting two companies?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm going to keep doing them. How long does the development come at the same time?
Speaker 2:Five years in Five years in Development company is bringing in five years 2018.
Speaker 1:you started that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay cool Again, worst possible time, like there's a story here about timing and I've got stories of worse timing. Right but you can still make something of it.
Speaker 1:You seem pretty happy, though. You seem like you're pretty accomplished. You seem all right.
Speaker 2:I'm all right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Maybe that's what keeps you going right. It could be optimistic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, so 2018 or before that.
Speaker 2:What was the impetus there? Yeah, so my parents are mum and dad real estate investors in New Zealand. They now are retired and they live off at least by rental homes and they just maintain them, put tenants in there and then they'd go again using the equity rate. So I could see it from my childhood like I'm the guy in the summertime I'm there painting the wall, painting the fence of these properties of my parents own rate. Right, that was my summer vacation.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Thanks, mum and dad.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But you know, so I had a knife or property for many years and I owned a few rentals myself and, frankly, why we did it was we could see. You know the Vancouver property market. Everyone kind of knows the story of how amazing the growth has been. But we, like these guys that are in this business that frankly don't seem that intelligent, like they're just kind of riding the wave right. It's like when the tide comes in, all the boats go up and like, if we can be half intelligent, bring some of the project management, project execution experience that we have to this industry. I think maybe we could do. Okay, yeah. So we said, okay, well, let's find a project.
Speaker 2:So we found a project again. We set up another company and we didn't want to merge the two companies together and on that company we actually my daughter had started kindergarten at that time and her best friend got talking to her dad of her best friend and her dad was a finance guy, a large developer here in town, and he said well, I'm interested in coming. You know, I saved my company hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes and I structure all their deals for them, but I want some equity and they won't give me any equity, so maybe I can join you guys. So Patrick joined and Vertex was created. Trevor, patrick and Graham the three amigos, I guess.
Speaker 1:So what was the first project?
Speaker 2:So we did a project on Vancouver Island in the town called Cheminis. One of the murals okay. And we bought three and a half acres of land and we subdivided it up, we put in services, civil roads, all that stuff, and then we sold a lot. Oh, we looked at do we build? Build?
Speaker 1:it was like all spec comms. Is that what they were?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, we didn't build, we just sold the lots because it was oh, we are like a lot of Builders wanted landsplot, like they need to land to build, right, we realized to turn build 17 homes. Yeah, over there, tough for us, right? So we sure we, we built, you know, we subdivided, got all that done and sold the lots off the high the home owners or builders and that was our first project.
Speaker 1:Sweet. I mean, that's kind of the way to go you basically make a little community and that's it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so it's what?
Speaker 1:what were some of the? Just to dig into that just for a second. What were some of the complexities of the zoning part was pretty easy. In theory and there was.
Speaker 2:I think zoning is always, in theory, pretty easy, but it's just too slow, yeah, too slow. The challenge there was Working with a really small municipality as well coming from Vancouver, and it's just a different way that they Make decisions. The way that they do things is a bit slower and it's just a bit different, right. So, you know there's a lot of politics in smaller towns. I find, when I work in smaller towns, for shit that level, to say the least.
Speaker 3:Well, were you able to bring anything from kind of the big city, so to speak, over there to say, hey, can we kind of help you through this process? Or what, what, what, what kind of was it was our lessons learned for?
Speaker 1:It can be hindrance to people on the island.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I found actually.
Speaker 1:Was it deterrent the fact you?
Speaker 2:it was actually pretty challenging like we had a local engineer there who's doing the actual, the detailed design, civil design, right. Just you know, would come into the office when you felt like it a little bit.
Speaker 2:And it just it was. It was actually really hard to do because, again, we probably at that time were a little bit too structured and so you come in into a very unstructured environment. It just doesn't drive well. Yeah, I think the one thing we did do well in the end as we found ourselves a marketing guy. Adam Nanaimo is fantastic, but he understood, he used to be doing project marketing in Vancouver and he now lives on the island. I think he basically owns the project marketing on On the island because he actually understands what it takes to market a project, whereas usually it's a single family home realtor. Right, he's trying to sell a project and there's just a different way. There's much more branding and lifestyle and the way you pitch it. Yeah, it's quite different to selling a single family home. So one thing that we did well was to hire this guy who actually understood how to market a project, and who's that? Sean McClintock. Shout out for Sean. Okay, sean McClintock, if you got a project on the island, he's your guy. The.
Speaker 1:So I had a house on the island, so I and I lived there for two years. So I can say whatever I want about the island, because I actually did live there. It's not like.
Speaker 3:I'm from Victoria, so all I can say.
Speaker 1:Well, I was Nanaimo, so Victoria is like New York compared to Nanaimo, but it's, it's a different mindset, I don't know what it is. My dad actually nailed it. I said, dad, like what's the what's the deal with? Like people from Nanaimo, it's like, well, especially people that have moved over there from the mainland yeah, it's a big leap to go over there. And you go, okay, well, we'll get us, we'll get a third bedroom so guests can come and stay. And then they don't come and stay, right, that's what happens, right. And then it ends up where they now have to say that the island is the best place ever on the planet, because they have to justify their decision that they moved it.
Speaker 3:Hmm.
Speaker 1:Like that walk. His brother lives there, so it's always like it's a, it's a microclimate over here. Oh, it's, it's way better than West Vancouver. No, nanaimo, I'm like, that's like yeah.
Speaker 2:Some great parts of the island and there is just different right. I guess you know some people hate the city too, so I guess it just depends what you're like.
Speaker 1:I love the like, the topography and the nature of the island. It was the culture of that thing that was kind of weird, like there's there's a some reason why People don't want to move forward and the city councils are pretty much what's island mentality? Yeah, I'm on an island. That's a mentality.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big as I don't know it's, it's a big island, but it's not yeah.
Speaker 3:I go over to Victoria and visit my parents. It's noticeably different just the pace of life and how people approach things versus kind of the hustle that you have here In the in the lower mainland right.
Speaker 1:So yeah, all right. Well, let's, let's not insult it anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah at least it was me doing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have the right. There you go. Okay, so let's continue. So you had that, the project in Chamanis, and that was a success. You've sold all the lots. We even made some money. It's just good.
Speaker 2:What's yeah?
Speaker 1:I mean so when you're doing a From a Like, is it less profitable to To do, you know, just the land and and the development?
Speaker 2:area and.
Speaker 1:As opposed to doing the homes as well. On top of that, because this is another whole complexity, there you could lose money right.
Speaker 2:Good you will in this market. There everyone says you make money on land, right? So you know there's a value add process to taking a piece of land, subdividing it into different lots. That's a really straightforward value add without a lot of risk. Yeah, when you get into construction, there's a lot. It's a whole different ball ball game and you can still make money, but there's just a different risk profile totally cool, okay, so Anything else on the origin story to date.
Speaker 1:Is there anything notable there?
Speaker 2:You know, look it's, it's been. It's funny as an entrepreneur, everyone sees with a good side, you know. But there's a lot of dark times. Entrepreneurship is not for everyone. In my opinion it's a tough, tough Process and you got to have the stomach to weather some pretty interesting stuff. But if you got them, if you're crazy enough to do it, you know, for me it's so rewarding. And Actually when we sold our first company, we went down to a Restaurant just down the road here in the old town, we having a glass of wine and a great dinner and I was like, is this it? Like I had some money, my bank account. I was like is this, is this it? And then I was, you know, reflecting because that when we're young we just hustle, hustle, want to grow revenue, revenue, grow, grow, grow. That was a mentality it's like. Actually, you realize, but wisdom and maturity and with my great here it's about the journey like it's about who you do, who you're doing it with, and it's about what?
Speaker 2:it's not about the outcome, actually, yeah, yeah sure, it's great to have a successful company and you got got to have success to do all this stuff, but that's just the side thing. Like it's actually about the people you do it, trying to do things that people tell you you can't do. That's the fun of it it's not about, in my opinion, it's not just about the money, or not even about the money at all. It's about how much fun can you have with a group of people that you're gonna spend a lot of time with and you're gonna break some rules.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, that's why you know you look at like what we do at Maven, for example, and focusing on the culture and making sure that we got Psychological safety in the workplace and all that kind of stuff that goes into it. If you focus on all that, you empower people, you're gonna get the best out of them and and the money's gonna come. But if you're spread, if you're, if you're managing your team through spreadsheets and treating them like like staplers, that's when you get into into trouble, and I've been on both sides of the fence on that right. So I think that's something that we've got the formula right with me, and especially as we, as we're experiencing the growth, we are right.
Speaker 2:So yeah, we've tried to and you know it's just I guess it's a leadership saying or whatever but you know success amplifies character. So have good character, right. Yeah, so who are we as people? Who are you with your family, right? Who are you when people aren't watching? Be good at that, that's right. And then we need a successful, yeah, like. You want to have a good culture, you want to have a good workplace, you want everyone should be rewarded. Well, you know like. So I think that's for us.
Speaker 2:You know Maven was really started on our travel. My values personally, right, and that's what we said. We're gonna start a company, so we're gonna do it our way and do the things that are important to us. Yeah, so what were those things? Giving back was a big one, you know. Coming from a Christian worldview, you know giving, giving to you know, giving is a really important part of that worldview. So we have a share 1% program where we we give a percentage of our Revenue every year to various organizations and for us that's really important of your revenue, of our revenue.
Speaker 2:Well okay, you know. So that's a big one, you know, just be a big good people, right. Like you know, for a few years there, when we were hustling and grow, I don't think we were very nice people actually. We're kind of just angry and focused and just you know, we're just just pushing, pushing, pushing. And I Realize that that's not who I am and that's not Healthy, right. So let's be good people like yeah, there's time of you sometimes that's kind to be firm with employees or customers or whoever. There's a kindness there, but do it in the right way. Yeah, right. And so again, it's about the journey, it's about the people you do this with. So I think we we wanted to start with Maven, just a place where people felt like they could come and contribute and we're rewarded, and then we can grow together.
Speaker 3:And I think the kind of work we do as well you got to have that emotional intelligence skill as well like the technical skill is important. You know, around project delivery, that we do, but also being able to have empathy with people, with clients, with team members All of that's so important as well, right? So?
Speaker 1:so when you talk about Sort of the behavior and being good people, you know like and also like it's, you know, dovetailing on what you were saying there's when you sold the company anything is this it there's that the the journey is also attached to the fact, as humans, we all need and require struggle, right like we can't, we can't just operate without any. We will bring it on ourselves. Yeah, we'll start arguing with. If we have no purpose, we start to create.
Speaker 1:Yeah, need, a need for struggle and that can be totally different, you're totally dysfunctional. So when I Find that, when that purpose and need for struggle can Twist itself up with different people's intentions on what they consider success to be, is where it gets ugly Right. So I think if the alignment of everybody being on the same path and as to your to your point, jesse is having into people with them Enough emotional intelligence to be able to see that pathway yeah, because you could provide a framework of this is how we do things. These are our values. But if people don't really understand the like you're using a power drill to get there and someone else is using a buzz saw right, like no, we all need to use power drills, yeah, here. Yeah, because this is way too disruptive and this dust going everywhere and we need to be, don't I mean? So, yeah, the emotional intelligence is, is a is a part that Clearly you've gotten right in your organization.
Speaker 2:Well, I've got a long, lots of times too great. You learn from making mistakes, and I'm gonna. I want to clarify, you know, when I say it's not about the money, actually it is about the money, because without money you can't have a business. It's always about the money.
Speaker 1:It's just. What does the money mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Money's a is neutral rates. No, it's not good or bad, it's neutral. It's what you do with it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've got lots of things wrong, as I say like, yes, we've got some things right over time, but sometimes you got to do things five times and you figure out okay, let's do something different right so we've made lots of mistakes and you learn from them.
Speaker 1:But here we are so let's talk a little bit about you know you, we chatted a little bit before the podcast and you're pretty Emotional about this, I guess. Emotional not not a, not a nut, in a crybaby kind of way, but but more in a way that you're passionate about it is, you know, in development, specifically like what is what is happening out there From your vantage point. So I'm being on the inside, within Vancouver Affordability, housing, what we need, infrastructure, wise, like give us the lowdown and why you're kind of pissed about this whole thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's. We've got a huge problem right. We have a housing crisis. We don't have enough housing. We've got tons of immigrants coming to the city. The city is a beautiful place to be and we want to keep it that way, but we Can't build enough homes, you know. Then you talk to around municipalities and there's all this infrastructure stuff that has to happen in order to accommodate all these people coming. And yet on the other side of it, we've been in a Ridiculously insane environment for developers around interest rates, foreign buyer bands, all kinds of government policy and fiscal policy For all kinds of reasons and you got on the other side. You got developers going out of business who actually can build these things. So this is this kind of dichotomy of we have this massive need and yet we have one of the most challenging environments in the last 30, 40 years and in infrastructure and development, I think okay, so let's unpack that for a sec.
Speaker 1:So a couple of things there. So when you, when you for everyone listening. So when you say we have infrastructure needs, paint the picture of what that exactly means from a. We can't get condos here, we can't build density because of acts like what is the X that's missing?
Speaker 2:So yesterday the provincial government announced this bill 44 I think it is where they said that they're basically going to fast-track density in every neighborhood, in every single family home. So all the municipalities are pushing back and saying, well, we don't have the sewer capacity, houses, we don't have the roading capacity, we don't have the power, we don't have the water, like this and in some municipalities in this town the infrastructure is from the 60s, 70s, 80s, right starting to be end of life. So not only do you have all this new stuff, you got to replace what's there, and so that's one challenge. And Then you talk about laying on top of that. You know this.
Speaker 2:Actually New Zealand's a great example about this kind of blanket upzoning of property. There's, there's, actually it sounds good and there's a lot of good to it, but there's actually a dark side too, putting homes in the wrong places, and so we've got to be focused on and I think you know what I'm hearing we're getting starting to talk about this conversation but getting density around, transit around, amenities, around, shopping around you look at and the Fraser Sorry, I'm sorry, I think it's the some of the plans out there there's no retail or commercial being built, it's all condos.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're gonna go shopping, right? Well, it's gonna turn into Phoenix, where you basically have to drive everywhere.
Speaker 2:There's freeways everywhere but then we're getting told that we should get out of our cows. I know it's, it's a concho.
Speaker 1:So you know what's interesting when you talk about, you know the increasing density within, you know it's bill 44 Bill. What is it called, bill 44,?
Speaker 2:I think it's a Bill 44, okay.
Speaker 1:It's a very similar problem. You have to try and convert a commercial building into a residential building. You don't have the services, you don't have the plumbing, you can't stick showers in, you can't make it. You can't stick a kitchen everywhere. I mean, to some degree you can, but some of that stuff is already. The kitchen can only be over there because that's where the old office has it, you're restrained.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're restrained, you're totally restrained. So you can't make the units like you want to. It's the same as a single family home. You want to build another laneway house. The plumbing doesn't go past that way. It goes the other way. You got to tear up the entire place for infrastructure. Maybe there's not enough in terms of the power. If everyone in the neighborhood did that, there would be. You need a new power situation. So this is the kinds of things that you're talking about, 100% Okay. So the question is, what would the alternative be to this density? So let's say there's a if there's going to be a house in, there's going to be a demarcation between the people that are going to add density to their properties. I mean, who's going to do that If you spent 5 million bucks on your house in Point Gray? You're not doing this.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah. Well, this is one of the dock side. It's in the lower socioeconomic areas.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So there's an uneven burden in some of those areas. So that's one of the challenges is, putting it, where do you put it? And you got to put it in the right place. And in Auckland, the city where I'm from, it's actually a fascinating story, because what happened was we had the exact like. If you read the newspaper article in the New Zealand hero, which was our newspaper there in the Vancouver sun, like, you could literally swap the city name, and it'll be the exact same thing Affordability, not enough housing, a lot of immigration. Exact same thing.
Speaker 2:But what happened in COVID is New Zealand shut the borders down, and so immigration, the tap got turned off overnight and a crazy story and crazy thing to do, but as a passport holder, I couldn't go to my own country. It was ridiculous, yeah. However, construction continued, so, as of last year, we actually went the table flip the other way. We now have more housing than demand, and so it's a very interesting story, because that's what could happen here, and so, therefore, housing prices have dropped in New Zealand because there's now an oversupply, and so there's an interesting. Do you see that happen here, though?
Speaker 1:No, okay, not at all. So someone said to me the other day they're like you know what? The affordability crisis, vancouver, it's just that's how it's going to be. I guess you just can't live here, I mean.
Speaker 2:Correct? You can't. So you're having a single family home with a white picket fence and Kitsulana or Point Gray is gone from most people, right? So we have to change the way that we think. If you want that, you've got to move somewhere else. That's right. But there's a lot of other people that want to come here and happy to live in a box or apartment or a townhouse or whatever. Like. The new single family home is a townhouse, that's right.
Speaker 1:But what I find crazy, though, is these price per square foot is all around design Like I'm seeing condos on Oak Street, for instance. I mean, that's like Highway 99 and it's like 1200 bucks a foot. You're like what, what are we doing here? Like Supply and demand. I know, but it's on Oak Street.
Speaker 3:Yeah Right, there's no matter, though it doesn't matter, but it's just crazy to me.
Speaker 1:And then I see stuff down on Albany which is 3000 to 4000 bucks a foot. You know Bozo's got that new building going up next to 1500 Georgia. I mean I talked to Dale about that. I said how much of a square foot and he told me the price. I'm like, oh my God, like that is nuts. So the question is, who's buying that stuff? And is that overseas buying? Like who's buying Overseas buying?
Speaker 2:contributes to it, but overseas buyers get a bad rap. In my opinion, this has not caused by overseas buyers. In my opinion that might be a controversial statement to make, but there's enough local demand and that was evident through COVID, again when our border was closed. There's still real estate transacting Right. It's just, you know, Vancouver's constrained with the mountains and the water and the border, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:We've got our land.
Speaker 2:There's no more land and there's people that want to come here. This is not complicated, guys. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It isn't yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know. Coming back to the engineering world, you know municipalities have a big part to play, but again, I think you know there's politics aside. You put, if you couldn't have politics for a day, you can actually get in a room and talk about this stuff and actually we could come together as a group and actually we can solve this. Innovation is different ways to do this. We've got to be more efficient, but we can solve this problem. This is not insurmountable by any stretch and it's a good problem to have. If people don't want to come here. This is a much worse problem.
Speaker 3:Right yeah, so is the answer. You know, we're saying they're not making any more land. So what's the answer? Is it density? Is it what's the?
Speaker 2:In my opinion, it's density in the right places right, so you got your major corridors, so you know. Take Kingsway how much of Kingsway is got towers on it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Less than a third. That's right. You put towers all the way down Kingsway. Yeah, like 50 story towers.
Speaker 3:Same story on Hastings. Like I live in Hastings sunrise, that's right for development. It is being developed in some areas, but yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but people don't make enough money here. The problem with with Canada in general and Vancouver is the salaries are lower. Yeah, it's out of whack. Yeah, it's totally out of whack. Like, based on how much you have to pay and the percentage of your income for rent or even a mortgage. Right, and and what's happening now is that, yeah, the mortgage, the interest rates are X, but what nobody's really talking about or except for people are going through a mortgage mortgage applications is the what it takes to qualify. That's right.
Speaker 2:That has changed dramatically. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's talk about reducing that stress test, I think to help people qualify, because it's bananas.
Speaker 1:A buddy of mine was trying to get a that's a nice place is trying to. He's trying. I think he had like 700 grand and he was trying to get a $2 million mortgage for a $2.7 million place.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and he needed a million dollars income to qualify.
Speaker 1:Wow, Wow. Yeah, it was actually. It was just under 1.1. You needed Wow Like hello.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, there are people that earn that, but not that many.
Speaker 3:Not the majority, though. Right Like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So half of that you want to get a place that's 1.35. Yeah, it's $500,000?.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 550?.
Speaker 1:Well, sure.
Speaker 2:However, you know, four years ago, right through COVID, I bought a one vision pre-sale condo in Surrey for $380,000. So there's like a few willing to move, like I always said, young people right, they're like, oh, I can't afford a place. You actually can afford a place. There's places in the West. Yeah, they're pretty scungy and they're not great. They're little tiny boxes and they're not bright and whatever. But you can buy 3.350, you can buy something.
Speaker 2:And you got to just work your way out, build up the equity and go again and again. People, you know, in your friend's case, he's got a fancy house and it's crazy, I agree. But if you want to get into the property ladder in this town, there's a way to do it. If you're willing to make a sacrifice, in my opinion, right, so it's. I think the conversation's got to change, like, yes, you're right to get big houses and be in downtown, it's cost a lot of money, but there are people who can afford it and who will buy. This is now we've got to think about. Look at London, new York, san Francisco, like actually, san Francisco is a terrible example of what's going on there, but you know these big cities around the world. We've got to start thinking like that not against Calgary and other or smaller cities, like we've got to have this biggest city mentality. And do you think you could go to New York and buy something downtown?
Speaker 1:Like no, no way, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:So let's change the mindset yeah, you've got to be looking forward and not backwards Like, oh you know, 20 years ago I could have got that for X number of dollars.
Speaker 2:Well, those days are gone, right 100% and you know that's why the valley is growing big time. But there's a real issue around workers, right, Like if you want to have workers downtown, they don't want to be driving an hour and a half into their job every day, Like that's not healthy right.
Speaker 2:So that's where the afford like some of these affordable housing initiatives, I think are really great for teachers and nurses and all those kinds of people that literally can't afford it. So we need them in the city of Vancouver. We need them. So let's find a way to get housing for those people.
Speaker 1:Do you think that there is a for the average person when we say we have a housing crisis and then people like knit that in with a homeless crisis and then, like I've seen these coming together, often People say, well, some people are homeless because housing is too expensive, it's like, okay, well, let's not. Let's not like connect heroin and, you know, a drug problem, an open drug problem, with the housing crisis. So, the first of all, it's like decoupled that, because it seems like we have this and the reason I've had a number of people on the podcast. I did a different podcast last year. We, you know, I had Ken Sim on there. We, you know, we chatted before he became mayor and we had some drug advocate people on as well.
Speaker 1:And I think that in Vancouver, you end up with this virtuousness of people talking about those who are not as well to do and sort of left in the in the gutter. Now, really, as you said, is, there are places that people can go, there are services, people that don't want to go to those things and, like you were saying, you can get a three or four hundred thousand dollar condo somewhere else, but maybe people don't want to do that. So this is now we've come into this culture of we're so soft and everybody feels entitled. They should be able to live downtown.
Speaker 2:Well, it's like the people who complained about the government, who didn't vote right, kind of yeah, right, like like sure complain, but if you're not willing to do what it takes, like I've done you know my personal life, I've made so many sacrifices, you know like you're getting. Everyone sees what you know, kind of what you achieve in the end, but they don't see all the steps to get there Right, and I think that's the reality of it. Like yeah, we can't, maybe we are too entitled in general, but I think we need to take responsibility for ourselves and do what you got to hustle and do what it takes.
Speaker 1:So what is that? I'm just interested in that mindset you have, because it's really rare.
Speaker 2:Is it.
Speaker 1:I think it is Okay and it's it's a very positive thing. So it's not when.
Speaker 2:I say rare I sound like I can't believe.
Speaker 3:This guy's a freak, I don't know what.
Speaker 1:I'm saying so you are. You're not Gen X, are you Not quite there? You're not old enough for that right.
Speaker 2:I'm right on the edge.
Speaker 1:Because your values are like one yeah, yeah, it's very independent. It's like you got to go and get you know. It's just funny. My daughter said to me the other day she's like you know, we've been, we've been moving because we've been renovating this place and it's been a total gong show. And she says to me she goes daddy, can I just? I just I deserve a day off. I'm like you don't deserve anything, you deserve a meal.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like you, you need to understand that you have to earn your right for a bit of time and you have to carve that time yourself. You don't deserve things. You go and get things, that's right. And she's like okay, and, and you know she is actually her mindset at school. Being that kind of girl is getting her in trouble at school because the teachers are not like that. They're like you are. You're supposed to have this. This is your space for this. This is we're building a bunch of whips.
Speaker 2:Yes, we are. I'm not letting it happen.
Speaker 1:I don't know about you. You know bringing up your girls. No, yeah, boys and girls, two girls, and so it's age 12. And what? 11 and nine? 11 and nine, okay, so are they? Are they getting these values kind of imprinted into them now?
Speaker 2:Well, they get them from me at home the other way, right? So I think I, like you, know it's really, really this is a complete off topic, but it's so easy to helicopter parent and you know any kid to fall in the knee, and you can totally see why. Right, as a parent, you want the best of your kid, but that's the absolute worst thing you can do is to molly-heal all your kids to a point where they feel entitled and they don't have, they don't realize what it is to suffer and to work out. And this is the thing when you have a bit of money, you have a house and a car and like, how do you? You know, you look at all these, but actually a lot of developers, these, you know, generation two and three developers, right? So how do you transfer that work ethic and that, like we're?
Speaker 2:You know my parents are not, they're missionaries. Like my parents aren't rich, my wife's parents aren't rich, like, how do you transfer like we're self made, quote unquote like how do we transfer those to our kids but also give our kids an opportunity and they have a platform to build on top of what we've done, right? That's a really interesting question and one that I struggle with every day is I want to provide for my kids, I want to give them a platform, but at the same time, I want them to struggle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so yeah, the platform is essentially the it's hard to. It's hard to give them the floor or a stage, because once you give them a platform of an audience and they have to create whatever that is that they're creating in their life, is the performance. Let's say, okay, so it's just a blank stage, right, but the fact that you were able to give them a stage that had an audience in front of them is the part. That's the hard part that actually generates the concrete of the values in action is getting the audience in order and to earn the right to have the stage.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Because that's what you have done in your career. You have not only built a stage, you've built an audience who could be clients, could be whatever, but you've built something to give yourself that stage. So I agree with you when you say you know, give the platform. Really, I think the most important thing is the platform should be the values and you know, understand. Obviously you know shelter and all the basics, but you know it's, it's. You know, having having your children who, oh daddy, everyone else has got this jacket at school. It's like Well, yeah, great, even if you can afford it. It's like no, you have to see. Well, you know, have you done the recycling for the past week?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know like to earn this stuff, so the transferring is really a and based on osmosis, I think is you as parents.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an interesting one. It's one you, you know you want the best of your kids, right? So you want to do the best you can. And every parent's the same. Yeah, oh, 99.9% of the parents are the same, so we'll have different stories and backgrounds, but you're right, it's values are number one and education is number two, I think. And then hard times giving your kids hard times is also number three, because it's so difficult right To be able to just be like you.
Speaker 1:Just say something in your back you're like God. That hurts so bad. But then you're like shit.
Speaker 2:this is the right thing to do. One of my saying, my mantra, is habits breed behaviors. Behaviors breed outcomes. So if you don't have outcomes in your life, look back at your habits. So with my kids, you got to do. You got to empty the dishwasher yeah, every day you, that's your job, do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's so, and sometimes, especially when the young kids I see there's other parents it's quicker to do it yourself, right, because you know where everything goes and you're not going to screw it up and you're going to put it in properly and neatly or loading or whatever. But that doesn't help you if you just do it. Yeah, and so many parents just do it because it's quicker and easier. But that's, that's taking the easy road and that's that's the wrong, wrong thing. Because guess what, later in life they don't have good habits in their life. That's right. Make your bed every day, like, yeah, I can go make it for them, you make it yourself.
Speaker 3:I've just taken notes here, cause I'm not. I was gonna say take notes, jesse. Yeah, I'm not at this stage yet with my daughter, but it's good. It's good to hear this from you guys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the whole safe environment at home. Yeah, get rid of it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, so, just just a cap of soft for you know.
Speaker 1:To a next point here. I watched that movie. Old dads, have you seen that?
Speaker 2:No On.
Speaker 1:Netflix with Bill Burr.
Speaker 2:Is it a comedy?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's well, it's a comedy, but it turns into anyway. See, he's basically this Gen X dad who's just, yeah, hates everything, hates people on scooters, hates all the stuff, and he takes his kid to this private school and it's like full on wokey plus there, anyway. So the funny part is him doing his, the resistance between him and that, but the thing at the end is he just caves and becomes part of this whole thing.
Speaker 2:You're like oh come on. Well, it is on. It is on Netflix.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right. It has to stay on Netflix.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, anyway. So yeah, if you watch that, it's exciting in the beginning and then quite frustrating towards the end. But anyway, let's talk about engineering related to construction. So how are things changing? Like, what do you?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So what we noticed with our first company, bc Header we talked about this kind of change in policy around empire building and having people on staff versus consultants. What I've noticed in municipalities kind of very broad strokes and these big companies is the, you know, the government entities, the BC Hydros of the world, or the municipalities, the engine, the engineers who work for these utility, these groups, the it's changed. So in the past, from what I could see, you'd have a very, very big breadth of engineers, different types of engineers and then a big depth technical expertise. So might be have somebody who's an expert on turbines, for example, or somebody who's an expert on a road construction or compaction of road, whatever it might be.
Speaker 2:And now I think you know, maybe it's a reflection of the engineering schools and what who's coming out of them. There's really more a switch to this owner's engineer role. So these big organizations, they don't have the deep technical expertise anymore. They have this kind of owners, someone who's able to manage those kinds of engineers or manage the process and kind of make sure they look out for their you know the best interests of their organization. But those deep domain technical expertise are outside. So it's a different type of engineering. Like you know I don't know, jesse when you went to engineering school, but you know we learned about like I even did my engineering degree I did six months of business studies, which is interesting because they said to us well, most engineers end up in some kind of management role, so you have to have a management background. So it's this idea of?
Speaker 3:was that like a minor in business, or was that was just part of the curriculum? Oh really, yeah, cause that wasn't the case for me going to school here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but they really recognize that as engineers we end up in management. We actually don't do much design, we do other stuff, which is great. So I think the so that's changing. So you still need that deep domain expertise. You still need those engineers with that deep knowledge and ability to do crazy calculations and really understand. But I think the engineering role is as a like a P in just changed a little. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, I always tell, tell younger folks that I mentor and that I've come across is that if you can understand the business of consulting I mean, as this is coming from the perspective of a consulting engineer if you can understand the business aspects and how to communicate and all of the soft skills that go along with it as well, that you're not taught in engineering school, you're going to be wildly successful, right? Because if you understand the technical side of it, but also the how to deal with people, that it's how to the business components of it and how, how all that works, that's where you're really going to see succeed and you're going to rise within the organization that you're in. But there's but we also need folks that don't. Maybe you don't have an interest in that and you just want to be a technical person, that's fine too.
Speaker 2:Right. We need both right Exactly.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's a big, big one for me. Is that the changing of the engineer role?
Speaker 1:So will you? What's the what's? What do you think the reason is that you're saying these, these, they don't want these empire type organizations. So it's also cheaper too, because they, as you were saying earlier I think it was early in the pocket as you were talking about. You know what's it? No, what's the, the retirement stuff? What's the other pensions?
Speaker 2:Yeah, pensions. Yeah, I'm losing my mind.
Speaker 1:Sorry, that's I have to having to pay out all these. Well, when they're consultants, they're not, they're just ends of contracts. Yeah, and you're putting that on the private company.
Speaker 2:Right but you're deferring that. I don't know which one's cheaper, but that's been. That was a shift in. You know, when we first started our first company was that Beesheater, as a crown entity, the. The mandate at the time was to not empire build. So all that you know. You know Beesheater. I don't know how many weeks holiday people at Beesheater get, but they get a lot of holidays and they get all of the stuff. There's a cost to that right and that's a cost to us as taxpayers, like that's our cost.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so is it more efficient to have consulting companies come in and take the bulk of that? And probably it is. I'm not an economist who, you know, can can speak to it too, too deeply, but I think that the idea and that's the model that we've kind of gone through over the last, you know, 15 years in those provinces more around having consulting companies take that burden and and release the taxpayer from it.
Speaker 1:Okay, so when you were talking about, you know, generalist versus specialist, can you dig into that little like, give an example?
Speaker 2:Well, I can use a Beesheater, a literature power example, because that's the background. But you know, I think for us, you know, we know how to manage assets, we know how to manage projects, but we're not deep. We don't have deep domain expertise on a governor or a turbine and no, you know, you get a thing called cavitation in the turbines. So you need a cavitation expert to come and analyze why we're getting cavitation. But it's the 80s, you know, it's the 80 to 20 year old. Right, you can do 80% of the job, but then you need to bring, you need you need a wingman to come in and or a wing woman to come in and and provide that detail.
Speaker 2:So some guys, they spend in one part of the hydrohydrolytics system, they spend 30 years in just in one area of it. Right, and you can't replace that knowledge and we need need those people. But, as Jesse said, it's there's different personality types, I think, in engineering and so some people want to be in a room and want to just do that technical stuff, and then there's a whole another breed of engineers that we need that do the more people management and the project management and kind of maybe a different strategic plan and all that kind of stuff, all that kind of stuff right.
Speaker 2:So I think for engineers to real, you know, I think self awareness is important as an engineer, especially going through university. What am I good at? What do I? Maybe you don't really know, until Jesse's not going to kick me out of the table for saying this, but I always recommend young engineers try a few different employers when they first start their career, because you get to try some different stuff and get to know what it is that you want to be doing, and it may even we have great opportunities for all kinds of engineers, but you got to try stuff. Am I technical? Am I better at projects? Am I better at you know? Say it's. It's a broad field and I think you know maybe schools need to change and be more specialist in these different streams. I don't know.
Speaker 3:Well, I find I mean one thing I think is powerful is that the co-op programs that are offered in engineering schools. And I'm an example of that, right, because I thought I was going to be this water resources engineer crunching numbers. And when I, when it did some some co-op work terms, I quickly found, well, I really like the infrastructure project management kind of that sort of thing, right? So had I just come fresh out of school and jumped right into where I thought I would want it to be, that would have been a disaster, right? And kind of back to your point again. We have lots of opportunities at Maven that you can try different things. But I do agree with you. You want to. You know, try working in the field, try working in the office, try different things, and hopefully you have an employer like Maven where we can give you those kind of opportunities. And if you can't get those opportunities, I would recommend trying something else, right?
Speaker 1:So yeah, and there's why he's your new CEO.
Speaker 3:That was a good pitch there, you go.
Speaker 1:So, jesse, maybe when you just crunch a little bit further down on that expertise, when you talk about somebody, let's say, who has a demand experience, particularly on like turbines, you got somebody who's got 30 years experience. Is that just getting retired out and gone Like? How is that experience captured Totally? I mean the transfer of knowledge. How does that work?
Speaker 3:It's well. A it's not happening as much as it should be. And B like that's where a lot of the boomer generation they're retiring right now. All of that expertise is leaving with them and especially, I find, with some of the boomer generation kind of age range, they're adverse to doing things differently. So can you write this down for us, or can you take what's on your desktop on your computer and make sure that we have it on our network so that when you retire we don't just wipe your computer?
Speaker 1:Oh, those are my notes. What are you talking about Exactly?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I think that that's something that is an engineering, especially in the consulting side of what we do. We need to make sure that knowledge transfer is happening and that's where you need to make sure you have mentoring programs and other ways to connect the older generation with the younger generation and make sure that that knowledge transfer happens. And unfortunately now with working from home and a lot of younger folks wanting to work remotely, it's very awkward to try and do that over Teams or Zoom, where it's a lot more natural, organic if you can just pull somebody into an office or hey, let's go grab lunch or a coffee, that water cooler type conversations. That isn't structured like you have to do on teams and stuff like that. So that's something that for me, as the lead of Maven, that's what I want to make sure that we've embedded into our culture, because we are a fairly young company.
Speaker 3:Maybe when you look maybe not with Graham's gray hair, but if you look at the overall age of our company we have a lot of senior advisors that have that are X Hydro or X Fortis or wherever they're from, that have come back and said, hey, I don't, I don't want to just leave the industry and not pass on some of the knowledge that I have, but ideally you can do that before they've left and said okay, we want to come back and do some mentoring, right? So that would be my recommendation to other CEOs and other leaders in consulting engineering companies, and on the owner's side too, is make sure that knowledge transfer is happening, because in the next five years there's going to be a huge gap missing in that area, right?
Speaker 2:So Well, you know, just to add to that, I think it's the next generation's problem to solve, like this is in development and in engineering. This kind of brings the two together. But the housing crisis, this knowledge transfer, it's not. The guys who are already kind of done their careers are in these 60s, they got the nice house and that they're successful. Yeah, they talk about it. They're not going to spend money to actually solve it because they're gone, but this is not their problem that they're done. So the next generation, so I'll guys I'm in my 40s like we've got to solve this problem as the next guys, because it's a huge problem and the people who talk about it, who you know typically lead in these organizations it's not their problem to solve because they really won't ever spend money on it, because it's too short-sighted, right?
Speaker 3:That doesn't fit into our budget for this year, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So we, as the you know, maybe you're in a VP level or a general manager level or whatever, but you've got to. This is a call to action, right? We've got to come together and solve this problem as a next generation. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So would there be an opportunity for like audio podcasts, like this series of talk, of technical talks you know within companies, so that AI can analyze that and have a corpus of data to compare with other you know white paper stuff or or other manuals that are out there, et cetera, and be able to put that together?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's definitely systemizing the knowledge right. So that's that's a key thing is, I think, ai is. You know I think we're talking about before we started the podcast, but you know we don't, we're still only really understanding what AI is going to bring to engineering and construction.
Speaker 1:What do you think it's going to bring? What are your pillow thoughts?
Speaker 2:Screw. I've got to run after the screw. I think AI is well on construction, like on on the real estate side. We don't need planners anymore, ai can do it. Also, we don't need planners. We don't need planners to do plan checking and all that stuff. Put all that stuff into AI. You can have an answer in two days. My pet peeve right now it's the time it takes to get freaking permits to do anything. It takes two years to get a rezoning, another two years to get a building permit, got to get a development permit. It's all staff and people's time. If I give a set of plans and I color between the lines of whatever the requirements are, I should get a permit the next day Like why does it take two years? Doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, we aren't-.
Speaker 2:So let's use AI.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's use AI. I mean, when you think about how many people Okay, so there is this argument that AI is going to reduce the amount of jobs, etc.
Speaker 2:That is a perfect example, because and I'm on your- side I'm on your side, because efficiency should be I listened to an AI talk a couple of weeks ago. The guy talked about three epochs. He talked about the internet, he talked about AI as one of them, and I think it was computers, and he showed newspaper articles of each of these three big changes and they're all identical. And he showed them and they're like we're losing our jobs, there's no more employment, and it's the same for all of them. And then he showed a graph. This guy showed a graph of the jobs in 1940, like the job titles, and then the job titles today, and it's not about less people or not working, it just opens up a whole new world of new kinds of jobs and so that it does.
Speaker 1:I think, as we were talking about earlier, is that spatial thought about what else someone could be doing. So there's that immediate threat of If you have AI analyzing things that humans were looking at.
Speaker 3:We're going to have to change and evolve, though, and people are scared of that, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I guess that's what it is right.
Speaker 1:Especially when property is expensive and people thinking their jobs are gone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3:Where do I have?
Speaker 1:to move now. That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2:That's the whole thing. Like you can have this debate about raising the minimum wage and then that stops people from bettering themselves. Getting education to get better right, because they can survive on what they're earning, and that's a whole different topic, but that's the same kind of idea. We've got to equip people to learn lifelong learning, we've got to keep evolving, and then you can actually evolve and adapt. Because, was it? The rate of technology change Is about a thousand times more than it was like five years ago. Something ridiculous.
Speaker 1:Yeah, everything's going to continue to do its thing, though, right. I mean you know, butters $9. Yeah, so you know, if you increase minimum wage now, it's 15. That's right. So it's just it's all relative. Yeah, exactly I mean so I don't understand how we can think we can even math our way out of this.
Speaker 3:I know Short-sighted.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally Well, this has been awesome. Yeah, this is a pretty good like your origin story is good. You're a hard dude and I kind of like that.
Speaker 2:I like the fact that you seem friendly which is friendly but stiff.
Speaker 3:Yeah, which is cool.
Speaker 1:And Jesse, you know this has been, this has been awesome having you here and tie clip and all.
Speaker 3:Yeah, tie clip. I made sure I had a tie clip on how many of those do you have, by the way? Yeah, I only have one, honestly Come on, I'm dead serious.
Speaker 1:I'm dead serious Christmas present for.
Speaker 2:Jesse, yeah, there you go. It's talking stuff, right Socks and tie clip.
Speaker 3:I need to get a site visit one right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you should get a site visit one there you go. We covered a lot of ground. Eh yeah, we did, we did.
Speaker 1:I think we could do that again.
Speaker 3:I think maybe a scotch or wine one.
Speaker 1:That's right, I'm down for that. Yeah, I think we could do that again. Yeah, that sounds good.
Speaker 3:Well, unlike I was saying, you know, that's why I, when I was chatting with you, james, about folks to talk with, and Graham came to mind, because Graham and I can have discussions that go on for hours and hours, right, and he's a very engaging guy and a very passionate guy, and I think you can see that. So thanks for coming on, graham. I think it's been great chatting with you.
Speaker 2:I really appreciate the opportunity and, you know, I think it's not all doom and gloom right Like we got some amazing opportunities ahead of us as a city, as a nation, as a province. I think there's a time to come together and let's solve these challenges, and you know the future's bright.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Okay, so last thing I'm just going to do these rapid fire questions, and rapid answers Okay. So is that way? Well, okay, so what do you do that others would consider to be insane Start two businesses at once. Can we already cover this?
Speaker 2:Okay, my daughter swims a lot and twice a week I'm at a pool 6 am. I spend my life by a pool, so that's pretty crazy to get my daughter up to get to the pool every couple of times a week at 6 am to swim.
Speaker 1:Sounds like a good excuse for go get a coffee.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Sounds awesome. What would you be doing if you weren't doing Vertex and Maven award? And is there another life passion? You'd be doing something else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd be a travel agent.
Speaker 1:A travel agent.
Speaker 2:Oh, really, I love to travel Nice and I love to take places where no one goes, and so being a travel agent, you get all those insider tips and Sure, do they still exist.
Speaker 1:Travel agent?
Speaker 2:I don't know, probably most people do it online. Travel blogger, travel blogger that's more of a blogger. A blogger, travel blogger, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So what's your most memorable story from any construction job site? Anything that you can think of that is you're thinking, oh my God, I can't believe that happened that day. Can I have two? Yeah?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, all right. So the first one. So we work in the Saskatchewan. We're helping build a power line between outside of Saskatoon, martinsville, to Saskatoon, so the subway just outside of Saskatoon, and I remember going there it was well, the wind show was 50 below. They built all their power lines in the winter so because you don't have grasses and frogs to deal with, so they can put power lines wherever they need to put them.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:And man, you got these guys 100 meters up in the putting the steel structure together and it's 50 below and these guys are up and I just my mind just blew a bean from New Zealand, you know, kind of tropical place, right, and you know, in this like freezer place and these dudes are just so tough and they're wiring cages for the foundations and they're just out there just hustling. Yeah, it's just blew my mind. So that's the first story. But the second one was I had to go to this place called Estherhazy and to this substation. They were rebuilding the substation and I got, I was in Regina, had to drive. It was about an hour and a half drive. I had to be there at 7 am, so I left Regina at it was about five. I get on a highway, one outside of Regina, and man, it's a blizzard Like the snow's coming down. It's like crazy, crazy and I'm like I have to make it to this meeting. I'm like I can't be the guy from Vancouver that didn't make it to the race, right, I was like, yeah, where's?
Speaker 2:Chris. So I have to make this meeting. So I'm inside a Volkswagen Tiguan, you know, kind of an SUV but kind of not, and so I'm driving down this highway over Regina following this truck, because I could literally pitch black and the snow is coming, anyway, so that was fine. I get off to the right off ramp and thank goodness for Google Maps I don't know how I survive without it but I start going down, I get on this road and I'm driving, you know this, like country road to get to the substation and I'm, like you know, holding on for dear life and it's, you know, I got coffee, my Red Bull and whatever. And you know, coming off the road, oh geez, yeah, and I went off into the side just, and I and you know I ended up waiting and they had to come pull me out and it was fine. But you know I'm on this like gravel road and he's like you know, so many fierce snow.
Speaker 2:I didn't realize what I was driving in right, but I was just cruising down and I just kind of hit a drift and I didn't damage the car, I didn't just kind of went into another pile of snow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're wishing you could melt everything so you know where you are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I had to call. At least I had cell phone. But I had to call and say I'm not making it.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's hard.
Speaker 3:The guy from Vancouver is not going to make it, yeah, and by the way, can you come pull me over?
Speaker 2:Yeah?
Speaker 3:that's right.
Speaker 2:That's nice, yeah, that's a construction story.
Speaker 1:Not good for our brand. Thanks a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I made the meeting in the end, so it'll be all good. There you go, okay.
Speaker 1:Graham.
Speaker 2:Jesse. Yes, thank you very much. Yeah, that's great, this is awesome. Thanks, guys.
Speaker 1:Thanks.