Navigating Change and Building the Future: Insights from Calgary Construction Association's Bill Black

Brace yourself for an enthralling expedition into the heart of Calgary's construction landscape with Bill Black, President of the Calgary Construction Association. As we shake off the chill of the Canadian winter, Bill shares pearls of wisdom on how pivotal business books can sculpt leadership and spill the 'secret serum' for luring talent into this bustling industry. Our episode unfolds a tapestry of Bill's journey, from a storied lineage in construction to spearheading one of the most instrumental organizations in the field, seasoned with personal anecdotes that underscore the podcast's remarkable reach and influence.

Navigating the helm of an association comes with its unique set of hurdles and breakthroughs, a narrative Bill knows all too well. Our conversation takes a deep dive into the leadership transitions at the CCA, tackling the paradox of embracing innovation while honouring time-tested practices. The episode doesn't shy away from the seismic shifts brought on by the pandemic, which compelled a radical pivot towards digital engagement, laying the groundwork for a renaissance in virtual networking that proved to be a game-changer for smaller businesses.

As we round off our chat, we cast a lens on the evolving construction industry, challenging outdated stereotypes and forecasting a future where technology and service redefine what it means to build. Bill's passion for construction echoes as he regales us with tales of Scotch and music, and the colorful, untold stories from job sites. We close on a reflective note, contemplating the resilient, human core of construction that persists amid the relentless march of progress. Join us and be inspired by the indelible legacy of an industry that molds our very way of life.

The Calgary Construction Association is a supporting association for BuildEx Alberta. Both entities engage in collaborative initiatives aimed at fostering growth and development within the construction industry. The Site Visit is happy to join BuildEx Vancouver 2024 on February 14-15th to help advance the construction industry and raise awareness about the pressing issues it faces.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Bill. How are you doing?

Speaker 2: 0:03

Not too bad. We've warmed up a little bit here in Calgary, so we're just a little bit more cheerful than we were a few days ago.

Speaker 1: 0:11

So when you say, warmed up a little bit in Calgary in the winter, what is that like minus 15?

Speaker 2: 0:17

I think we've hit the sort of minus 10 to minus 15 range and we were in the minus 38 plus wind chill, taking us to minus 49 at the weekend. So it is basically patio weather.

Speaker 1: 0:31

I like the way that I was actually making a joke that I thought was hyperbole and it was accurate. Yep, Welcome to the Site. Visit podcast Leadership and perspective from construction. We're here.

Speaker 2: 0:44

Host James Faulkner Business as usual has been for so long now that it goes back to what we were talking about before and hitting the reset button. You know, you read all the books, you read the email you read scaling up, you read bits of great.

Speaker 1: 1:00

You know I could go on. We've got to a place where we found the secret serum.

Speaker 2: 1:05

We found the secret potion. We can get the workers in. We know where to get them Once.

Speaker 1: 1:09

I was on the job site for a while. Actually, we had a special concrete and I ordered like a green finished patio. Oh, friends of the Site, Showers days. I was down at Dallas and a guy just hit me up on LinkedIn out of the blue and said he was driving from Oklahoma to Dallas to meet with me because he heard the favorite connect platform on your guys podcast. I'm a crusher and a lover and we celebrate these values every single day. Let's get down to it.

Speaker 1: 1:37

As you all know, we often do the podcast at BuildX in Vancouver. So this year we are there again. So that is going to be on the 14th and 15th of February. Now BuildX is celebrating their 35th year doing this in Vancouver, so that is quite a milestone for them. So they have completely overhauled their program. They got a whole bunch of new things going on In like last year. For instance, they had 7,500 participants, 300 exhibitors, 42 sponsors, 100 sessions, 244 speakers. I mean it's pretty serious. So if you want to be informed about construction in Vancouver, you got to go to BuildX. So we're going to be there. We have lots of cool guests lined up. We're going to be near the VRCA connector lounge with our friends from the VRCA. Yeah, you know, we've had them on. We're going to be talking to them more. We're also doing CLF with them in.

Speaker 1: 2:33

May. So there's also the Shine Awards, which is celebrating interior design excellence. Buildx is going to be awesome, so we hope to see you there and we will be posting the episodes after we finish recording those exciting interviews All right we'll see you there.

Speaker 1: 2:53

Thanks for joining us. This is awesome. We had a chat yesterday and sort of went over some things. It was good to get to know you. Now this isn't so cold and chilly, even though the weather over there is. So you are president of the Calgary Construction Association, so how was that? Just take us a little bit of a story of your background, how you got there. Give us the. I always say the coals, but you know what the problem with the coals notes is Is that millennials don't know what coals notes are.

Speaker 2: 3:28

Well, the problem with coals notes is I've never given a sure answer in my life so they might get a bad impression of Cole if my answers were judged as representation of him. But no, I mean I was born and raised in Scotland, in Edinburgh, and fourth generation of a construction family with grandparents and uncles and my father that were in the industry. So I kind of fell into the construction mindset, became fascinated with buildings and the construction process at an early age. So it kind of followed that I started straight out of high school as a trainee quantity surveyor, a profession somewhat unique to the UK but more and more frequently used here and quite a popular target for hiring into the Canadian marketplace. But I started in 81 and I did a degree in Edinburgh but always had a bit of an itch to get out of there and I moved to Calgary in 91 and just in June there. So that's coming up 43 years in the industry and 33 years in Calgary and I had a number of different roles.

Speaker 2: 4:45

It took a little while to get cracking here, the market was a little slow in 91, but I've had a number of different roles in different aspects of the construction industry, even a fairly long stint in the commercial interiors, furniture manufacture and architectural interior products, but my journey with the CCA started way back in probably 93, 94. I was an estimator and I was in the plans room all the time. The primary function of a construction association back then still was a plans room, a bid depository and a builders exchange where all the projects that were out for bid, we could go up there and grab the plans for them all and spend an afternoon doing our takeoffs and also, almost more importantly, hearing all the gossip, hearing what was going on, who was winning which project, et cetera. And so the CCA was kind of central component to a lot of my work, and it so followed in 2012 that I was asked to sit on the board as a director representing the Alberta Roofing Contractors Association, and that's kind of when I started to get much more behind the scenes visibility of what it took to make an association operate and just how many individuals in the industry volunteered their time and their knowledge to make the industry better through association work.

Speaker 2: 6:22

And as time wore on, my jobs and roles were changing with some different organizations, largely trade contractors, and in 2018, about halfway through the year I was chair that year of the board.

Speaker 2: 6:39

The board made a decision that we needed to change a little bit of how the association was being operated, and, in the course of a few weeks of consideration, I was asked if I would take on the position of president interim whilst the decisions were made as to the long term decision that would be required to run the association.

Speaker 2: 7:03

And about six weeks in, I suddenly realized, to my surprise, that I actually really was quite inspired by the role and the opportunity to support the industry and follow some of my ambitions to make the industry better, and I presented my desire to the board and, after some time of conversations, I ended up taking on the position just after Labor Day, september 2018. And I'm still here. My biggest fear was I would get bored, because I was used to being in the trenches of construction and all the stresses and successes that that entails, and I have not been bored for a second. There are so many ways that we can work with our industry and I have so many relationships from being in the industry that the ability to work with folks, some of whom I used to fight with, some of whom I used to compete with, makes for a really unique dynamic, and I think it's something that others are responding well to.

Speaker 1: 8:10

Wow, do you have that rehearsed Bill? Because that was very good. That was very, very good.

Speaker 2: 8:17

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's rehearsed, but it's lived experience. So it's right there in the front of mind.

Speaker 1: 8:25

So we can get an idea of the fabric that has created the bill black who he is today. What were your favorite music influences? What was your stuff when you were a kid? What do you wish you could time warp yourself back to and get back to that feeling?

Speaker 2: 8:44

Well, I was an instant convert and student of British punk rock when it hit the scene in 1976. It suited my rebellious attitude and dislike of authority figures in all their forms. I wouldn't say that has completely left me even now, many years later, but from a music perspective, it was the clash, it was the sex pistols, it was the jam, it was a lot of the punk music and new wave music that was just in our faces and a time when we had very little faith in society in general and it was a great time to be hanging out with your buddies listening to records. And somebody would steal a record from their big brother and bring it over and we'd listen to it. So by 15, I'd formed my own punk band, first punk band in the high school, and that really inspired my real hobby and passion outside of work, which is playing music.

Speaker 1: 9:51

Playing music. Wow, ok, you and I have a lot in common. If all the listeners know of my background, we have that same music. Do you play an instrument or are you a? What's your?

Speaker 2: 10:03

Yeah, I play guitar and I play other instruments very partially, but guitars my main instrument and vocals. And the really exciting thing is very rarely in your life do you get to mix your hobby passion with your work passion. And the unique thing that I've been very fortunate to experience is in our stampede events. We do a big stampede event for our members every year, and two years ago I formed a band to be the the House band for the Stampede Party with some other folks that are from industry, and so we're known as Bill Black and the Prompt Payers.

Speaker 1: 10:54

I love it. The Prompt Payers, well, which is a great little bit of, and Vogue is that.

Speaker 2: 11:02

And so, yeah, the joke was that you know, we were going to call ourselves the supplementary conditions, but nobody pays any attention to them. And then we were going to call ourselves change order, because you always get asked to perform at the last minute and you never get paid. But prompt pay, prompt payers became the one, and it is stuck ever since.

Speaker 1: 11:21

That's cool. That's cool. Glad you weren't called the submittals. That's a.

Speaker 2: 11:27

Well, we would never be on time.

Speaker 1: 11:30

Well, that's pretty cool. See that one little question Now. We know all that more color about you, I guess. So, yeah, yeah, even though you're black with no color, but you have a lot of color, bill. Ok, so let's just talk about your tenure so far at CCA. Ok, so what has it been like? What have you experienced over the past? So is this coming into your seventh full year or your sixth full year?

Speaker 2: 11:58

Just coming into my sixth, sixth, ok.

Speaker 1: 12:00

So I mean, what have you noticed and what is changing and what do you think you've got a course correct or you know what's going on with your? You know, every year you're probably like, ok, well, this year we're going to do XYZ, like what do you think the recalibration, or calibration, if you will, activities are going on in your mind right now, what you got to do.

Speaker 2: 12:23

Well, I think you know, coming into the organization that was, it wasn't planned, it was something that had to happen quickly. And so you're thrown into something that, despite being on the board for six years, the big eye opener was just how little we really knew of what it took to operate an association all the moving parts, all the behind the scenes organization. You know, the better you are, the more it has to happen that is invisible to the customer. And so there was a fairly significant learning curve and, coming from the industry and having been on the members side of the counter for all the years up to that point, I had some ideas how we could perhaps be more focused on members as business owners, members as practitioners and professionals, etc. And I also had a very, a very detailed picture of a lot of the dysfunction, a lot of the stresses, a lot of the challenges and some of the new ways in which others were engaging in the construction industry. And so it was kind of with a mixture of learning and some new ideas that I'd been heavily involved in since the early 2000s in my previous role. I really started to think how can an association be a vehicle for change whilst also supporting the industry as it is, because you have to keep the lights on. You kind of have to be ambidextrous when you're making change. You don't want to pollute what's working and you don't want to hinder what could be a great future. And so I really began to see that an association has the luxury to play in both sides, because we're not running the actual businesses that have to operate. And perhaps we could be a little bit of a testing ground, a little bit of eyes and ears on what the future holds, and even a little bit of an R&D place on behalf of industry, and then help industry maybe engage with new ideas in a less risky manner. And that was kind of beginning to take shape when COVID landed on our laps.

Speaker 2: 14:50

And with COVID there was all the negativity that came with COVID, all the risk, all the issues and all the societal impacts and the things that we're still living through. But it also forced us to stop doing pretty much everything we'd ever done before. So we didn't have to go through a divorce proceedings to convince people that we shouldn't do that anymore. We literally couldn't. And the ironic thing about COVID was it provided us with a forced reset where everything had to stop because we were largely events focused. We were largely about getting groups of people in one room and of course, that couldn't happen and it forced a restart that we have still seen, opportunity that we're still learning from, and I think the silver lining of it was we were ready for the reset that we didn't expect and because of that, we've embraced all the learnings and opportunities that happened during it and that have landed on our laps since.

Speaker 1: 16:04

So when you say reset, can you just be more specific? When you said, like, is it everything we've done in the past, we can't do anymore, or was it digital transformation? What specifically?

Speaker 2: 16:16

I think the biggest reset was it interrupted a calendar of events that was somewhat predictable.

Speaker 1: 16:24

Oh, like within the organization in your association. Oh, I got you.

Speaker 2: 16:27

Okay, that makes sense In terms of our interface with our membership and with the industry at large, was very much driven by a calendar of events and activity, all of which obviously had to cease. But the other thing is, as we were forced into virtual, equivalent type things and experimented with different ways to still create activity, what that ended up doing was it was a different audience that attended our virtual events than we used to see at our old events, and it began to open us up to a whole other community within the community that we suddenly realized. These are the smaller businesses that make up the majority of our membership, who are running an organization and can't step out to attend one of our all day events that we've historically done Right, and we can attend a virtual Zoom room, meet the GC event, where people are mixing and introducing themselves, and literally that was probably the biggest eye opener for opportunity that we had perhaps missed in the past and it really inspired just about everything we've done since.

Speaker 1: 17:51

So, just so that everyone can understand the operations of an association's business like business model. So being able to make, is it considered a nonprofit? Yes, okay, so you're obviously making revenue from your membership fees and some of the events. I'm sure there's something left over, even though they're very expensive to put on. But other than that, is there any government funding in any way?

Speaker 2: 18:25

We receive at the present we receive zero funding from government or any other funding body. It is largely funded through membership dues, through education programs, through some of our events that generate revenue and sponsorship and support and some advertising, et cetera. But we are completely dependent on ourselves to fund the work we do.

Speaker 1: 18:54

And that's an interesting point because I think sometimes people might get the idea that there's some bias by influence of people who are writing checks for you.

Speaker 1: 19:07

But it doesn't. I mean, if you're not getting anything from the government, you can pretty much stay on course on message, on purpose, throughout time. Essentially so we talked about this a little bit yesterday was when you're trying to sort of connect with you, were saying that some of the businesses are, you know, have maybe only 10 people in the office. They got, like, you know, maybe a handful to a hundred people out in the field, those size of businesses, and being able to connect with those, I mean, there's, obviously, when it comes to the larger construction companies, they, you know, they're multi-layered companies, they've got executives, et cetera. They can all afford to take, you know, a day off and do some of your events, et cetera, whereas the other ones are like, well, you know, I'm kind of busy. So, to be able to connect with those people, surely because of the outcome of the information and help that you're going to be providing, maybe, like, shed a little bit of light on on that and your focus.

Speaker 2: 20:21

Sure, you know, what we started to see during COVID was we would have these events that would run from about four to six, towards the end of the day, and we had 40, then we had 60, then we had 80 people and we had a a kind of core that showed up to them all. And then others were added on over time and we began to see this trend that more and more of the people that were attending were not folks that we saw at our larger events. And that was when we realized that well, wait a minute, a four to six timeframe is a timeframe that people can manage. It is towards the end of the day, wherein a lot of the daily demands have backed off a little bit. It finishes early enough that they can still get home or if they still need to do a bit of work, it's, you know, it's not a late night event and they really seemed to value the connection, not just the pure social connection, but there was a bit of a purpose to them coming together.

Speaker 2: 21:30

One of the event formats that we started then, and we still do, is meet the GC, and it's literally a speed dating for general contractors. Was four or five general contractors that attend. Back in COVID, each one had their own Zoom room. Now we have larger spaces and they set up around the space and it's an opportunity for trade contractors and service providers and manufacturers and suppliers to circulate around the room, introduce themselves, meet the general contractors, put faces to names and also enjoy hanging out a little bit and a little bit of the social time. And, to our surprise, the general contractors were just as excited to be involved as the trades were, because they themselves were very conscious that a large amount of their connection with industry was virtual, through emails. There was no face-to-face, there was no relationship, and provided we made sure there was a real reason to get together that would bring value to the business owners. Even the smaller business owners saw value in it because they could. It was good respect of their time, it was affordable and it was meaningful.

Speaker 1: 22:54

So you also mentioned that you're trying to, you know, have programs that really help that size of business with some operational advice et cetera, playbooks on how to deal with things. Maybe take us through that what you guys are coming out. I think you're developing some programs or you have some in full swing now.

Speaker 2: 23:20

Sorry.

Speaker 2: 23:21

You know what we had started before COVID was we were trying to really compile what we called a business hub, which was what are all the resources that larger organizations have that are important?

Speaker 2: 23:39

But smaller organizations just can't run the overhead, they can't justify HR, marketing, it and legal and other such levels of expertise, and so we had started before COVID and it did get derailed, and it's something that we really only started back into last year because we've renovated our space to become a venue unto itself that members can use during the day but we can also use in the evening, and starting to put together knowledge discussions around key topics and the kind of topics that we're going to be curating.

Speaker 2: 24:23

We started one around contract management and good discipline, around how to manage a contract and some of the pitfalls and some of the best practices, and we had a room full of trade contractors and suppliers and such that, engaged in a conversation with some experts that have seen the good and bad of how contracts have performed, including an owner who spoke to what a good owner is looking for, and it allowed, created a safe environment for people to ask the questions that they might be too embarrassed to ask in a larger room. We're looking to address topics like demystifying immigration and obtaining foreign workers and trying to bring some expertise there. The members that have become regular attendees at our events are insurance and recruiting and legal and financial service providers, as well as the builders, and even in the general conversations of that mixed environment, advice is being shared and knowledge is being shared and questions are being asked that are really working on the collective intelligence of membership in general.

Speaker 1: 25:44

So also I think you were talking about the education element of attracting a younger audience at an earlier stage in life to provide an opportunity to understand the what the future can look like for them with some kind of a career in trades, et cetera, construction in general. I mean, take us through that because it's pretty groundbreaking in terms of how early you're getting in there.

Speaker 2: 26:22

Well, for sure, because it's no secret that workforce is the biggest challenge that industry faces right now. I think there are some facts that maybe haven't been fully accepted in addressing this, take me through your opinion and what those are.

Speaker 2: 26:40

Yeah, and I think, first of all, I don't think we have fully acknowledged the degree to which the societal stigma that construction is a second or third rate career, especially in North America. I think we allowed that to prevail for way too long and we failed to see the damage that would happen if three, four generations of young people and their parents subscribe to the idea that if you want to be anybody you need a four-year academic degree and if you're not smart enough you can always do construction. So I think that was recognized but under challenged. We did not challenge it hard enough. And then I think that we also failed to recognize as an industry that we might not be the best employers in the world. Our industry can be hard on people, it can be physically arduous, it can be mentally stressful and some of the behavior is a little out of sync with where society has evolved to, in the way people are treated. And I think we also underestimated the impact of a technology industry that didn't even exist 15-plus years ago that is now providing incredible range of opportunities. So I think the industry has a little bit to answer for, maybe having been too busy building stuff, and whilst you don't want to dwell on that. If you're going to fix it, you need to fix it through the lens of these realities, and so, when we decided that we needed to hire an individual to be focused on workforce rather than just have it off the side of the desk, we did hire an individual, and she started with us last November. She comes from an HR and workforce development world, so she understands a lot about that side of things, and we were being bombarded with well, you need to start going into the high schools and we need to start doing career fairs. And my pushback to that was well, wait a minute though, guys. We've been doing that for the last 30 years and yet we're still in this problem. So I'm not saying that we don't go to the high schools, I'm not saying that we don't do career fairs and other things that we're familiar with, but let's do these in the light that we probably have missed something along the way.

Speaker 2: 29:10

And so I always look at just about any challenge as quickly, determine what's obvious and push that to the side. What is it that we have not done? And as we dug and as we asked questions, and as we looked in the mirror a lot and sat with a lot of our members, we realized that we've never gone to elementary schools Not that anybody I know can remember and so we began to say, well, what would that look like? Because that seems way too early. And as we dug and questioned and it's all about having conversations people know stuff that they don't even know they know, and it's not until you are constantly engaging in conversation that somebody suddenly says wait a minute.

Speaker 2: 29:56

And it's so happened that an individual I know and have known for many years introduced me to a program called Honor the Work. It was founded by Angela Coldwell out in Eastern Canada, who herself is an Albertan and former school teacher, and she engaged in quite a bit of research and quite a bit of investigation. And the research really pointed her to a similar place, in that by the time kids are in high school, they may not have decided what they're gonna be when they grow up, but they and their parents have probably decided what they're not gonna be Construction is probably not part of their future and that elementary kids are fresher minds and their parents are less likely to have predetermined futures in place just yet. And so what Honor the Work has done is they have created a grades one to six curriculum, separate curriculums for each of these grades, with age-appropriate reading materials that aren't even available in the mainstream booksellers, and curriculum lessons and activities that are all age-appropriate for the different grades, that expose kids to construction.

Speaker 2: 31:26

What has happened in people's lives? Young girls that are immigrants, that work and so they can relate to the age group of the stories they're reading, age-appropriate tasks and activities where they build things with their hands. And the program has gained fairly significant momentum in Ontario and is being adopted in a number of schools because literally this is curriculum in a box for the teacher or the grade teachers, and so we have started working with the Calgary Board of Education and the separate school board to pilot a couple of these boxes in their systems. We're gonna work over the next few months here, and our hope is that we will have some pilot programs in place by the early fall and it will begin a solution that, whilst this isn't gonna fix our current problem right now, we need to make long-term investments in changing the society's perception, and we're really excited to see this program maybe shed a light on construction that changes perceptions earlier and helps people discover that there's a lot of people in this industry that are in it because it's a perfect fit for their skillset.

Speaker 1: 32:58

Yeah, I mean there's lots there. I always think of the reason and the motivation that people make the decisions that they make. And what's interesting about this, about these programs going to schools, is there is a community, obviously, of teachers and education professionals who are attached or tethered to the universities, et cetera, similar communities of people who are all about secondary education in the university's, colleges, et cetera. And so I think of that as possible barriers. And then the second one is when you talk about when people sort of try and mirror their image about what they're going to be and what they see these programs, do you think that they would be invited into a private school?

Speaker 2: 34:13

Hard to say, because the private schools are very often fueled by a focus on academia. I know so there's no doubt about that.

Speaker 1: 34:20

So you hear, what I'm saying here is that because and this is really all down to identity of kids, trying to identify who they are, and prosperity, or seemingly prosperity, and what else would you call it? Social rank, if you will being considered a and this might be a myth, by the way, this is just a perception. So we know there are construction people who are loaded because they've done an amazing job, so they have amazing lives. So what I'm saying is the perception, which is very often a myth. So, but when you think of kids saying, well, my friend who goes to a private school, they won't allow that in that school, and that's the guy who gets dropped off in the Porsche or gets picked up from the ball game in a Range Rover, but that's the life they want. So they don't do those things that those archetypes of the seemingly other crowd don't do.

Speaker 1: 35:34

So it's an image problem, cause what it is is that we have a number of different stratas of people who go into construction. The ones who are intentionally going into construction, as in engineers, people who are in might be in a family business, who are going into this stuff because they wanted to and it was their path. Then you have people who it didn't work out in college, they didn't do well in high school and they have to go get a job. The problem is, is that those two crowds are conflated and mixed together to have a very blurry message of is construction an intentional thing or is it something that you know?

Speaker 1: 36:23

If everything went wrong, someone lands that. Well, it's clearly not the latter, because so many people like you can't build like the new world trade center, for instance, with people who just didn't make it somewhere else. I mean, these are amazingly talented people who've crazy, crazy abilities to do things and run companies and insurance and make sure people don't get killed, and I mean it's an insane business. It's a very technical business and yet it still gets painted with that brush of the guy sweeping the site, which I find very annoying because you know I think we talked about this yesterday is often this image is telegraphed by the parents virtue of trying to push their kid to do something that they weren't able to do.

Speaker 2: 37:18

Well, absolutely there's. You know. It's just like parents that wanted to be great at sports and weren't, but forced their kids to go into sports so they vicariously live the success they never had. You know, you see that mistake play out over and over again and I, you know, there's so much of these ingrained we're talking 40 years or more of ingrained stigma and societal stereotypes, and that is just not. That's why, you know, really our industry's workforce solution is going to be at least a two generation solution and that will frustrate our industry.

Speaker 2: 37:58

Because our industry is a solution based industry. We want to get our hands around it and fix it now, and it's we are going to need short-term strategies, mid-term but, most importantly and uncharacteristic for our industry, we're going to need to engage in long-term solutions and, for instance, you know it's going to require us using the media to change public perception of what a building actually is. When you drive past the Calgary Cancer Center and as a guy working on the parcade doing the concrete formwork or the rebar, you know and there's women working and men working on that site, on the electrical installation and the medical gas installations and installing the flooring and the curtain walling. They're delivering healthcare, they're not building a hospital.

Speaker 1: 38:56

Yeah, that's interesting. You say that because the marrying of terms is something that I've been talking to many guests about. Specifically, I was chatting with Jeanine Martin, who is the new president of the VRCA, and she was on a couple of podcasts ago and I was saying that the construction, the where it's dovetailing with technology and in my opinion and you can call me nuts on this, but it eventually is happening the integration of technology and robotics into construction means that just as you said is that those people are contributing to healthcare, building that building.

Speaker 2: 39:51

Right.

Speaker 1: 39:52

With construction it's getting less dirty every day by the second. It's very slow to see because it's like it's trying to watch something freeze over, but it's happening. So to those parents who's like, well, I don't want my kid to, you know it's, it's, it's. Construction is a dirty job. Well, sometimes it is, but most of the time, the high percentage of the time, the 99% of construction isn't necessarily dirty, it's technical and it's becoming more technological.

Speaker 1: 40:26

So if you look back at the golden days of Silicon Valley in the early 80s, when they were putting things together for micro trips and you know some of the, some of the, the big companies that started there, the opportunity to become an engineer, computer engineer, you know it's. It's not like it is today. Today anybody can become an engineer and make an app and do very well. So now in construction we're in that progression. Now of technology and construction, it's getting less dirty, as I just said, minute by minute, second by second. So and it's going to be, in my opinion, the last bastion of growth, of jobs and revenue to be had. There's lots of dollars to be had there in technology and construction and it's so, as you said.

Speaker 1: 41:25

So you know, a perfect example is my company, sitemax. Right, we're, we're. You know, we don't build a single thing except for the tools that construction people use. Does that mean we're not in construction, we're just a software company? No, we're in construction. Oh, absolutely so. So that's. The interesting part is that it is becoming the support for construction is becoming more technical which is excited.

Speaker 2: 41:50

Well, no, no, sorry, I've been saying for years. I was part of, I was a co-founder of a group called Mindshift back in the early 2000s, which was compiled of a group of people that knew our industry could do so much better if we were only able to engage in a different way, and it was a group therapy, if nothing else, but it introduced us to a lot of leading edge thinking that the mainstream industry hadn't seen yet. But one of the realizations that came to me over the course of the many conversations we had is technology revolutionized the music industry. It has revolutionized the retail industry. It has revolutionized the TV and cable industry. Everything technology has been able to fully engage with. It has completely revolutionized the manner in which that industry operates.

Speaker 2: 42:53

But that industry has thrived, albeit in a different form, with different ways, in which, for instance, if a musician wants to make money they have to go on tour. You can't make money selling records anymore. Right, I still have a ticket for seeing the police in Edinburgh in 1983. It was 7.50 to go and see the police because they were touring to promote an album. That was where they made their money. So the tour was a loss leader for the album. Now, the album is a loss leader for the tour, if you think about it, and the publishing industry, the retail industry, the Amazon impact on retail and we're still seeing it play out in box stores going out of business and closing down and the dating industry, don't forget.

Speaker 2: 43:52

Oh yeah, you know it's. And our industry has resisted, partly because I think the stereotype has scared people away. The industry itself is very self-resistant to new ideas. And but now, the evolution of society, the fact that owners are once again beginning to raise the bar on what they want out of their buildings. They want higher performance, they want to get ESG scores on their real estate portfolios, they are exploring Passive House and Net Zero and now, all of a sudden, the built environment accounts for 50% or thereabouts of the carbon footprint of our cities. There is a whole new purpose coming for our industry, which will be a whole new call to arms for youth to be a part of that purpose. And the technology enablement of how buildings are designed, how they are built, how they are operated, renovated, maintained over their life cycle is about to.

Speaker 2: 45:01

You know, I believe the next 10 years is going to be an incredible journey. It's going to be scary. A lot of status quo, long accepted practices are going to go by the wayside. The Luddites will be screaming from the hilltops every eight minutes. But the industry will emerge out of it stronger, more agile, more effective, more highly valued, and the reality is the reason I say it's going to happen with certainty is society cannot function without a built environment.

Speaker 2: 45:39

There is no choice. Society has no choice but participate in a revolution of the design and construction industry, because if it doesn't, it won't have roads and utilities and services and stores and restaurants and homes and hospitals and universities are all the rest of it. So it's going to be disruptive, but I think it's going to be exciting and you know, I really hope I'm around. I'm not a retiring kind, I don't want to retire, I'm scared of my brain going to sleep. I think it's going to be an unbelievable transition and I really feel I'm very fortunate to be sitting in the association space at this critical juncture Because I'm going to have a front row seat in exploring and participating in all the different aspects of that journey and I can't wait. I just wish I had another 40 years.

Speaker 1: 46:48

So what do you think? Some of the low hanging fruit stuff that needs to, that will get knocked off first by emerging technologies.

Speaker 2: 46:58

I believe the residential industry is going to lead the commercial industry in significant change and I think there's a couple of reasons why that is going to be the case. As I've spent more time in this role over the last five years, it's become very obvious to me that I was I like many was very dismissive of the residential industry because I always looked at it as we're the commercial industry and they're the residential industry. There are a bunch of trunk slammers that frame houses and if you have a hammer you can call yourself a framer. I'm embarrassed to admit it, but it's a fact, and I know I'm not the only one. But as I've spent a bit of time with my colleague who runs the Residential Home Builders Association in Calgary, I suddenly realized that the residential industry is a manufacturing industry. They design a product, they study the market for what the market needs. They then develop and design a product that they then deliver to the market and sell to the marketplace. They have complete control over their product, complete control over their supply chain, and they operate as a real business. The commercial industry has to wait for somebody else to want to build it and then our industry responds to what somebody else needs, following the drawings and the specs that they had put together.

Speaker 2: 48:31

And we are a service industry that has been increasingly commoditized over the last 25 years, to the point that we're treated by procurement departments like they buy toilet paper and pens and pencils. And the difference in a true business manufacturer. They engage in R&D, they address obstacles differently and they have tremendous control over everything that their customers eventually buy and live in. Because of that, they are going to be much more agile and able to adapt and adopt new ideas.

Speaker 2: 49:17

In addition to that, the home market is under a ton of stress because the cost of homes and the volume of homes is not matched up with demand or financial ability. I believe the residential industry is going to move into automation and prefabrication on a large scale, because the only stereotype they have to get over there is well, nobody wants to live in the same house as somebody else, and I'm like well, wait a minute, if you live in any subdivision, the subdivision is comprised of six or seven different home types that were all predetermined and the owners got to decide what color or lipstick went on them. But the home type at its core is the same and the owners can customize within certain constraints, to personalize the end product. So I think the low-hanging fruit is possibly, and much more likely, to be led by the residential industry, because I also believe there are other industries that have automated in their history that are recognizing some remarkable similarities between the journey they went on and the journey that the residential industry could go on.

Speaker 1: 50:51

Yeah, it's interesting. You say that because we've talked about this before many times on the podcast. The reason that there's such a slow technological advance in construction is because the environment continues to change. It's not a manufacturing floor and you don't just change your tooling and then you get a different product. However, since it's so interesting, you sort of pulled this perspective up, because you're totally correct.

Speaker 1: 51:26

If a home builder has six plans and once slabs are poured or foundations are made, it really is product A, b, c, d or E or F and they are rinse and repeat. So anything that can be rinse and repeat is where innovation can take form and efficiencies can take form. But I think we've already seen this. Pre-fabrication is. You've seen all these wall systems that have electrical in them already? I mean, we've been doing that for a long time with window systems and the high-rises they pull in the entire side of windows that have got five or six panels, panes of glass in them already and they're popping them into the side of the cladding. So I mean it's already been done and now it's going to be done at new levels.

Speaker 2: 52:32

Well, yeah, and I think the accelerator is going to be, because, sad to say, there is a rather depressing list of prefabrication companies that have popped up and failed, and that list keeps getting longer. There's lessons to be learned there, but that can be what pioneering is. The models aren't in place and the models have happened in part and here and there and in some outlier projects, have actually been the majority of the project. I do think that there are other players that are going to potentially be the accelerator here, and they're probably not names you would even remotely consider to be associated with construction. There are organisations that come, so one of the beauties of that is they are not handcuffed by all the belief systems that we have that are 150 years old.

Speaker 2: 53:46

They're not going to say, well, you can't do that and you're like well, why not, because we've always done it this way, they don't think that way and, unfortunately, whether even the most innovative person and forward-thinking person and I try to be one of these whenever I can I find myself handcuffing myself with traditional practices and I can't go there because nobody is going to back me, because I'm hindered, because I've been in the industry too close to the trees for too long, and so I think there are some people scratching at the peripheral of this idea that I've already done on a massive scale In other industries.

Speaker 2: 54:30

Right, and if they then bring their intellectual property, which is not necessarily the robots or the components or machinery itself, the intellectual property they have is how to automate a manual industry on a large scale, increase the quality while you're doing it, increase the speed while you're doing it and increase the volumes while you're doing it. I think we're five years from seeing that happen somewhere in North America on a large scale, a large enough scale to make people sit up and notice.

Speaker 1: 55:14

Yeah, because I mean there's companies that in the past have gotten involved in construction products. I mean Heidelberg would be a pretty good example of going from printing into concrete. So, yeah, there's lots of interesting elements there. Yeah, you've really got my mind rolling there, bill, that's pretty cool. You know, I think you and I over some, are you a Scotch drinker?

Speaker 2: 55:48

or not.

Speaker 1: 55:50

Oh yes, oh yes, Glen Fittick.

Speaker 2: 55:54

You know what, as long as it's 40 proof or higher and free, I'm not fussy. I have my favorites. But what are your favorites? I like the space sites. I like Balvenny, I also like Highland Park, oh yeah. And then you know when I, when I need a second wind, that's when I like the PT ones, because they give you a bit of an extra kick. So but I do quite like some of the Highland Parks and the Balvenny's and McCallan and some of these ones.

Speaker 1: 56:28

Well, bill, I think we should go into a rapid fire, mostly because my brain is smoking now from thinking of all the things we've talked about. Yeah, it's like it's good, it's, it's. It's a intellectual fatigue, which is cool because I get you and I can talk about this for a long time. I think I've got a lot in common. I just realized music. I'm in a band to create my own band, produce music, sing, play guitar, tell you yeah, we're like brothers, so rapid fire. Did you get a chance to see any of those questions? Yes, I did. Ok, cool, so let's get into that. What is something that you do that other people would think is insane?

Speaker 2: 57:18

I would probably hark back to when I was in the industry as opposed to what I do now. It's interesting I got to work in an organization that was in trouble and brought in a non-construction business leadership to help turn the company around. I got to see them learn how we did our business. Basically, everything we did to them was insane. The most insane thing that I saw Tom walk into my office one day. He had a contract in his hand. He walked up and he says do we really sign this? He was pointing to a pay when paid clause. He said do you mean to tell me that you guys sign contracts that only suggest that you might get paid as a business person? He could not believe that an entire industry was engaging under these kind of terms. That's a very boring one, but it is still happening today.

Speaker 1: 58:30

What would you be doing now if you weren't doing what you're doing?

Speaker 2: 58:33

I'd be in a band.

Speaker 1: 58:35

See, I knew that was the answer.

Speaker 2: 58:38

Mind you, knowing my past, if I had been in a band I probably wouldn't be alive. I certainly wouldn't be as healthy as I am now. I always say, if I didn't have to work for a living, I'd be playing music in some form or another, no doubt.

Speaker 1: 58:55

What was the largest crowd you played for?

Speaker 2: 58:59

About four or five hundred. I've never been lucky enough to. That's pretty good. Well, you know what Eight hundred were at our last Stampede event. They weren't a captive audience, they were milling all over the place. But I guess I could claim eight hundred. That's pretty good. I would love to play on a big rig in a big stadium and hit that guitar and hear it that friggin' loud, because I like volume.

Speaker 1: 59:30

What is your most memorable story from the job site?

Speaker 2: 59:34

It's funny. I was looking at this one and I can think of many and there's not a single one I can repeat oh, that bad, I have some doozies. I could write a book on some of the things that I witnessed, heard or was told about. I think I gave it a lot of thought, actually, and I'm like everything I can think of is boring in comparison to some of the spicy stuff. I think that all the memorable stories that matter do have one thing in common is that man. Are there ever some characters in this industry? There are some resilient, capable, passionate people and there are some difficult people. They can make projects painful, they can make projects rewarding, but they'll always be memorable the lessons you learn, good and bad, along the way.

Speaker 2: 1:00:38

I think that I've seen the best and the worst, the best part of this job now in the last five years. I generally only see the members of our industry at their best. That's been a relief because I went through three organisations that were in various states of trouble in a row and I got to see a lot of aspects of how difficult it is to navigate this industry. I had a pretty jaded view of it, probably full blown PTSD, if you really want me to be honest. This role now has restored my faith in this industry and the people in it. This is a people industry. No matter how much technology we bring in, no matter how much automation and how much offsite fabrication gets introduced into the process, it still is always going to be a people business because what we do is for people. It's where people live, work, play, eat, learn, heal, drive, etc. I'm sorry I can't share any of my real memorable stories, but maybe that could happen over a Scotch or two.

Speaker 1: 1:01:52

I have a feeling I'm going to get a few of those. This has been awesome. Anything that you want to say to the audience, or maybe some of your members who might hear this, anything you want to share?

Speaker 2: 1:02:07

I think the only thing to share is that, whatever the stereotypes are of this industry, if you look at the history of civilisation, we're at the heart of it right through every era. A lot of what our predecessors built especially when you grew up, like I did, in a city like Edinburgh you're looking at buildings that are hundreds of years old and the work of the crafts people that built them, however many hundred years ago, is still there the mark we make on society. Society lives and thrives in the physical infrastructure that we design and build. What we do is noble, what we do is lasting. Even though we might feel a little beaten up by our customers or by each other now and then, or by circumstances in general, what we do is worth it. For me, it's a privilege to have been able to see the industry from many, many different angles over the years. Now, in this position of the association that's there to serve and help our members be successful, I'm very proud of what I see. I'm very excited about the opportunity that's there for the taking.

Speaker 1: 1:03:24

Well, that's probably one of the best endings I've heard on the podcast that honestly had such a that really had a sounds kind of cheesy but so genuine. Bill, that was really cool. I'm actually going to might even put that into pieces of that into the intro of the music in the podcast. So, yeah, pretty cool man.

Speaker 2: 1:03:52

Well, I mean, the reality is, for a long. It took me a while to find my place and get to the point and I tell my kids about this, I tell others. It took me a while to get to the point where I suddenly realized I was being paid to do something that mattered to me, utilizing what came naturally to me. I didn't go searching for it, it kind of found me and I was lucky enough that a great colleague and friend of mine pointed it out to me a few years ago. And I'm still there.

Speaker 2: 1:04:28

I'm still doing what I love to do for an industry that I feel destined to serve for my entire life and participate in, utilizing my just natural give a shit factor and the fact that I care and the fact that I want to make a difference and the fact that I don't want the credit. It's amazing what can happen when it doesn't matter who gets the credit. We're in a world that's full of people trying to get credit for doing stuff. I just want to be there when the success is realized and I'll drive by and show my grandchildren the stuff I was involved in. They'll be bored, they'll roll their eyes, but maybe one day they'll be doing it too.

Speaker 1: 1:05:14

Right on, Bill. That's awesome. Thank you very much. I look forward to meeting you in person and I'm going to make my way to Calgary. My wife's from Calgary.

Speaker 2: 1:05:23

I look forward to it. Very much so, and thanks for reaching out. I appreciate the chance to chat.

Speaker 1: 1:05:34

Well, that does it for another episode of the Site Visit. Thank you for listening. Be sure to stay connected with us by following our social accounts on Instagram and YouTube. You can also sign up for a monthly newsletter at sitemaxsystemscom slash the Site Visit, where you'll get industry insights, pro tips and everything you need to know about the Site Visit podcast and Sitemax, the job site and construction management tool of choice for thousands of contractors in North America and beyond. Sitemax is also the engine that powers this podcast. Alright, let's get back to building.