Discover the intricate dance between law and construction as Stephanie Streat from Synthesis Legal steps into our podcast spotlight, bringing with her a treasure trove of insights from the Canadian construction legal scene. Her journey is one of bold entrepreneurship, transitioning from a large international firm to founding a practice that champions the personal touch in client relationships. Together, we navigate the turbulent waters of construction claims, from the all-too-common subcontractor payment disputes to the project delays that can entangle the best of plans. Stephanie's expertise shines a light on the crucial role of early legal intervention and the nuanced impact of COVID-19, from stretched supply chains to evolving safety protocols.
As the conversation flows, we confront the stark contrast between the fast-paced world of technological innovation and the methodical march of legal adaptation. Prefabrication, robotics, and quality control in the construction industry become focal points, revealing the intersection of human skill and automated precision. Through Stephanie's lens, we explore the transformative use of tech in litigation, offering a lifeline of advice to subcontractors entangled in disputes. We underscore the essence of networking, expressing appreciation for the bonds formed and urging our community to keep the conversation alive across the vast expanse of social platforms. Join us for a session that promises to fortify your understanding of construction law and the value of connection in this digital age.
PODCAST INFO:
the Site Visit Website: https://www.sitemaxsystems.com/podcast
the Site Visit on Buzzsprout: https://thesitevisit.buzzsprout.com/269424
the Site Visit on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-site-visit/id1456494446
the Site Visit on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5cp4qJE5ExZmO3EwldN1HH
FOLLOW ALONG:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/thesitevisit
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Discover the intricate dance between law and construction as Stephanie Streat from Synthesis Legal steps into our podcast spotlight, bringing with her a treasure trove of insights from the Canadian construction legal scene. Her journey is one of bold entrepreneurship, transitioning from a large international firm to founding a practice that champions the personal touch in client relationships. Together, we navigate the turbulent waters of construction claims, from the all-too-common subcontractor payment disputes to the project delays that can entangle the best of plans. Stephanie's expertise shines a light on the crucial role of early legal intervention and the nuanced impact of COVID-19, from stretched supply chains to evolving safety protocols.
As the conversation flows, we confront the stark contrast between the fast-paced world of technological innovation and the methodical march of legal adaptation. Prefabrication, robotics, and quality control in the construction industry become focal points, revealing the intersection of human skill and automated precision. Through Stephanie's lens, we explore the transformative use of tech in litigation, offering a lifeline of advice to subcontractors entangled in disputes. We underscore the essence of networking, expressing appreciation for the bonds formed and urging our community to keep the conversation alive across the vast expanse of social platforms. Join us for a session that promises to fortify your understanding of construction law and the value of connection in this digital age.
PODCAST INFO:
the Site Visit Website: https://www.sitemaxsystems.com/podcast
the Site Visit on Buzzsprout: https://thesitevisit.buzzsprout.com/269424
the Site Visit on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-site-visit/id1456494446
the Site Visit on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5cp4qJE5ExZmO3EwldN1HH
FOLLOW ALONG:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/thesitevisit
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesitevisit
Welcome to the Site. Visit podcast. Leadership and perspective from construction With your host, James Faulkner.
Speaker 2:Live from BuildX Vancouver 2024.
Speaker 1:Stephanie hello.
Speaker 2:Hello.
Speaker 1:How are you?
Speaker 2:I'm doing well, thanks, how are you? I'm doing well.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Stephanie Street from Synthesis legal Correct. Wow, so construction law, that's right. Yeah, quite an interesting path. These days Is the industry in general very litigious.
Speaker 2:Well, I see the litigious side of it. Yeah, I mean, obviously that's my type, so everyone I speak to is litigious but.
Speaker 1:But on a. I mean we always say that everything in the United States is very litigious. Sure, it's always about suing everybody, etc. Would you say that the appetite for litigation is a little? Are people more, I would say, lenient in Canada than they are in the US, from a culture point of view, like suing people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know too much about I don't know how to compare it to the United States because I haven't practiced there, but I mean certainly people get very invested in their jobs, invested in their projects. And so when things go wrong, it can be quite impactful for the business or the person.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so when they come to us, it's usually with a problem that they're pretty worked up about.
Speaker 1:Right, that makes sense. So let's just talk about your law practice. You know what made you focus on getting into construction law Sure.
Speaker 2:I guess I started my legal career in Alberta.
Speaker 1:Okay, I did see that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, at a large international law firm Is it Denton's. Denton's yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, I got it.
Speaker 2:You got it. Yeah, so I was there for a number of years, I article there and then worked with closely with some senior partners there who were active in the construction area and I just really took to it and they seemed to like the work that I was doing. So we kind of just grew it organically that way. Yeah, and then when my husband and I are BC people, so when we were ready to come back to BC, there was an opportunity for me at Denton's in.
Speaker 1:Vancouver. Getting back to the water.
Speaker 2:Back to the water. Yeah, so I was able to join the construction and infrastructure team at Denton's in Vancouver. Oh it's cool. Yeah, it was great Working with amazing people there.
Speaker 1:Right, and then you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then, you know, practice changed again and I wanted to work, you know, with some particular clients and closer with my clients, and so moved to a smaller practice, right, okay? So?
Speaker 1:is this your practice. This is my practice. Yep Simplices Legal is my firm Right. Did you? You founded it, I did Okay.
Speaker 2:I'm a legal and an assistant. Oh, cool, okay, so this is your baby, this is my baby, yeah.
Speaker 1:Nice, nice. And it's been. What time, sorry, what time blah. What year did you start? In 2020. 2020.
Speaker 2:Okay, so it's still kind of fresh.
Speaker 1:It's kind of fresh, yeah, three years, but going strong and you enjoy like being running a business as well as doing your work.
Speaker 2:I do. I like the business side of it. It's a different, it's a different part of your brain than the legal stuff, which I also enjoy it's. It's kind of nice to stretch those business muscles and be creative in that way as well.
Speaker 1:It's interesting One thing I always do like about lawyers in general. Like, one of our good friends is an intellectual property lawyer, mccarthy Tetral, in Toronto, and he does. He represents Pfizer represents. So I say he's he's drugs and rock and roll because he's Nicol Bax lawyer.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to mention his name, but yeah, so he does drugs and rock and roll. Yeah, so it's kind of interesting. Yeah, but we also have great conversations because I think there's a, there's a different spatial reasoning. I think lawyers have they, like one of my favorite podcasters, Megan Kelly. She's she's an ex lawyer, she's. They just see and communicate in different ways, probably see different layers. I will say there's a concentric circles of thinking and some people just can't get out of the last ring. You can probably see ring and ring and ring.
Speaker 2:Well, I appreciate the compliment. Not everyone is so flattering to lawyers, but I do appreciate that.
Speaker 1:Well I actually have. I mean, shout out to Brock Smith at Whitebird Law. I mean he has, from the corporate law side of things, helped me with corporate finance, helped me in a number of ways and been a partner with us at SiteMax all the financings we've done. I go out to lunch all the time chat about stuff and he's an integral part that I have a relationship with that. Yeah, just wouldn't have been the same.
Speaker 2:That's the best. I think that's the most gratifying relationship I think for a lot of lawyers too, at least for me is when you can kind of get to know the client and vote for lunch or kind of be the regular person that they call when something comes up. I think that's really gratifying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is Okay. So let's just talk about construction conflicts and all that kind of stuff. So what is typically? If you were to look at your revenue over the past four years, what percentage is it general contractors and sub-trades?
Speaker 2:We do a lot of work for subcontractors and suppliers, as well as some general contractors and some smaller owners projects. So the claims that usually come to us through the subcontractors are unfortunately, usually they haven't been paid or there's a dispute about something on the site. So we help them with leans, if that's what they want to do, and help them try and get paid really Do.
Speaker 1:Often, like over-school construction is all based on sequence and time is money, obviously. So are there often claims where it's just project bloat and timing has wrecked things and it's screwed up everything, and then there's conflicts of payment because of jobs can't get to be done because the schedule has changed. Is that what happened?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Those are what we call delay claims and those come up again and again as well, because, as you say, everything's interrelated. So if somebody messes up their part of the work and does it poorly, it really affects the whole project.
Speaker 1:So I had a. Sean Gray was on yesterday and he's a big data guy and he's got a lot of statistics around. We're saying that 25% of revenue in construction is actually reduced.
Speaker 2:Wow, reduced Wow.
Speaker 1:God, I'm not that good. 25%, because he's also talking about emissions and all that, and how much that you know getting rid of materials that are wrong, right, having to redo stuff. Those claims, that what are some of the best ways that you have found the customers or sort of clients, clients that have gone through and had to set these claims, let's say, a subcontractor, you know, claiming a general contractor and claiming a loss there. What's the best? What are some of the best ways to mitigate this? Like you must be going through this stuff and they present their case to you and you're kind of like, yeah, if only that had happened. Like what is that? What are those things?
Speaker 2:Oh no, it's usually come to me earlier. You know, I think sometimes people are afraid to rock the boat because there's personal relationships involved too, right?
Speaker 1:There is yeah, there's a big trust thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot of trust in construction in the industry and it's small and everybody knows everybody. So I think a lot of the time people think you know, well, if I just keep going and complete the project, then I'll get paid. But that's not necessarily the case. If you're finding that there's red flags all over the place earlier on, it would really be helpful to speak to someone like myself earlier on because you know, then you're at a much more well, you have more leverage. Frankly, because they want to get the job done, they probably don't want to switch suppliers.
Speaker 2:So with some skilled negotiation, you can usually get the money flowing.
Speaker 1:So from an engagement point of view, you're on a sort of hourly basis, so sometimes it can be maybe just a conversation with you. That's, you know, under $1,000 can mitigate crazy stuff.
Speaker 2:And because this is what we do. I mean we don't practice in every area of the law. So we know construction law and you know. You don't have to teach me about the standard form contracts, we already know them, right. So we can just jump into your SUPs usually and help you out and help you figure out. What does it say, what are you obligated to do, what are your risks and what are some strategies, nice.
Speaker 1:Have you? We interviewed on the podcast, I think, last year a guy who found a document crunch. Have you heard of this, a document, what it's called document crunch? Oh no, it's kind of interesting it's. You upload all of your when you get your contract, you upload it into the AI and it gives you what things to look for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've heard that there's more and more coming out like that.
Speaker 1:It's going to be really interesting to see what it looks like.
Speaker 2:It's going to be very interesting. We're kind of a we're a nice small, nimble firm that really adapts technology and looks into it.
Speaker 1:We're following all of that very quickly closely actually and there's really interesting stuff coming out with the generative AI, so I think it'll change law a lot in the next few years it will, and I think what's you know, you do hear a lot about, you know this white collar jobs being replaced and all that kind of stuff by technology, and you know, when I think about law, it really I don't think that it will be replaced in that way. I think it's basically going to be tools, just like designers, for instance right Designers now have tools to be able to use amazing things, to be able to give stuff to their clients that's expedited.
Speaker 2:I would agree, but I think there are some kind of the lower level, I guess, tasks that will be automated, and so I think there will be a chunk of work that will go the way of automation, but I don't think that will replace lawyers. I don't worry too much about the risk of that.
Speaker 1:Well, there's a liability there too, right?
Speaker 2:Sure, but there's also so much more that we do than just, you know, reading the contract. I mean. There's a whole strategy and that really I mean comes down to experience and people and knowing the law and weaving it all together with the client's objectives. So that's really I don't think that's something that computers are going to be able to do anytime soon.
Speaker 1:Right, no, fair enough, and that's kind of what I was getting at. I was thinking that, you know, often there is the sidestepping, some of the stuff that you know, the sort of more mundane things like contract analysis and stuff like that, not like full-on litigation, because that becomes creative, it becomes strategic, etc. But there's a lot of like meat and potato stuff there's kind of the minutia that's critical.
Speaker 2:I mean you have to do it, but I think a lot of that meat and potato stuff, as you say, is something that we'll be able to be more efficient with, and I think that can only be good for clients. I mean, there's a. You know, the old way of doing law is not the most efficient. So I think people have to get on board the efficiency train or it's not going to be good for them.
Speaker 1:I want to also think of. The hourly rate will probably be a lot higher, but will a lot be less work? That is mundane. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, because obviously all legal professions are going to have to maintain their revenue and do a lot kind of stuff. So I could see it where it's been run through AI by the client over and over and over and they go you vet this. It's like, yeah, well, the hourly rate to vet your AI is actually three times the amount which it should be, because you're actually catching the stuff that Well, that's right.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's certain things that clients can do on their own, or they can do on their own with help of tools and AI and that sort of thing, and then you know if they need the lawyer to get it. The last 20% of the way that makes the most sense right in some cases.
Speaker 1:So how do people I guess on the business development side, you guys, having you guys busy all the time or always looking for business?
Speaker 2:Well, we are accepting referrals. You know, most of our business actually comes from referrals from current clients and their contacts and our contacts. So we are accepting new business. But yeah, we keep busy all the time.
Speaker 1:So where do you see it's going to be interesting where robotics start to replace some things with humans and isn't from a liability point of view, where is this all going to land, do you think?
Speaker 2:Well, in a lot of courtrooms before there's clarity. I think you know the technology is changing at a much different pace than the law is changing. We all know that the law changes very slowly, I think I heard.
Speaker 1:What is the leg? Do you think?
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know, but I heard some sort of a comparison to you know, law is the only profession where, if you practiced it 200 years ago, you could probably hop into a courtroom and do it a similar way today. There's not that much. They still wear the wigs, oddly.
Speaker 1:No, okay, let's check, not here.
Speaker 2:But yeah, so there's not a lot that's changed. It's a slow change, is the point right. It's a really slow pace, whereas the technology we've seen change even in the last 10, 15 years. It's quite phenomenal.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, I think I mean, especially when you're, I could see a lot of On prefabrication.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Where a lot is already done and then shipped to site.
Speaker 2:Right. If there's a mistake in that, you're just going to have to have excellent quality control. I mean, you can let the robots do so much, but there's got to be some way. Whether it's robotic and then with a human touch, I don't know, but somebody's going to be responsible for it. So you better make sure it's good quality.
Speaker 1:It's done right. So what kind of other I mean? Do you dip your foot in HR claims as well, or not?
Speaker 2:Like for employment stuff.
Speaker 1:We do a little bit of employment stuff, or you just refer it as, yeah, we don't do a lot of employment stuff.
Speaker 2:We do advising of clients to help them through what their employment matters. If they had a big dispute, I think we'd probably refer it out.
Speaker 1:So you were basically you were hitting the ground running and just as you got into a cadence of regular business and some velocity, COVID hit you guys.
Speaker 2:Well, we actually. I think COVID happened first and then the firm, because COVID was early 2020, we started the firm in late 2020.
Speaker 1:Right, oh, I see Okay.
Speaker 2:It was kind of an opportune time really. Things were changing, people were having different needs and reevaluating what they wanted to do, so that was kind of an opportunity. Were there any Obviously client confidentiality but were there any claims that were COVID related that you guys there was a lot of COVID related advising that had to happen because it was so new and for policy, well policy. But also people were having problems, for instance, with not being able to get materials, and they'd say, well, we can't because of COVID.
Speaker 2:Well, can't because of COVID, or they couldn't get the people to be on the site. They're supposed to have 15 workers and they've got two because everybody's sick or not wanting to come for various reasons, and then there's different vaccine, this and that. So I mean there's a lot of questions I think that we had to help clients with and they'd say, well, what do I have to do, what am I obligated to do? What do I need to do? What should I do Not do? So it was kind of a I think it was kind of a time of fear for some people. So it was nice to be able to help them through that. So I didn't see a COVID related litigation per se, but it was more kind of navigating through it in the best way.
Speaker 1:Do you find that within most claims that the client has put their foot in their mouth too early?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And they're the ones who, like, sealed their own fate.
Speaker 2:That's right yeah.
Speaker 1:And they didn't call you at the right time.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, but the other thing is we all know that data doesn't disappear anymore. It sticks around. So sometimes, if people get into a dispute, they'll find that their emails and texts and conversations from years ago come back to haunt them, because it's all there, and if you get into a juicy piece of litigation it's often producible, and so what you write, the truth is going to come out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally Besides emails and just general documents, have you guys?
Speaker 1:it's so funny because I think when you get into talking to Anna, of how the layman thinks about what a lawyer's job is, what it's going to be like at the courtroom. All they see is these TV shows and they wonder how real that is. But you talk about people having to get evidence, et cetera. Have you guys had to be looking at video footage? Is there any of this technology stuff that you've been analyzing? Things like oh, we see some things here. Have you been interfacing with that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we use all sorts of things. We kind of work with whatever the client uses on the site so, for instance, if they are engaging in a lot of texting, we can look at their texts. There's software that people are using.
Speaker 1:Like SiteMax yeah that's right.
Speaker 2:So if that's something where they've been able to take pictures or videos or having site visit or meeting minutes posted or saved and that sort of thing, so we kind of use whatever the client has kept, so we're aware of it all.
Speaker 1:That's cool. So have you been given access to login to SaaS platforms and see stuff, or do they typically provide it to you?
Speaker 2:That has happened a few times. Yeah, sometimes it doesn't go quite that way, but yeah, we can get in there if they let us.
Speaker 1:That's cool. So what are some tips that you have in terms of? I think you said one. You were saying call earlier, consult earlier, but where are most people getting in trouble?
Speaker 2:Well, I think-.
Speaker 1:Let's start with subs. Where are subs mostly getting in trouble?
Speaker 2:Subs are mostly getting in trouble. It seems like I mean, I act for a lot of subs, right? So I see that they're often the unfortunate recipe of bad actors above them, right? So if there's a dispute between the owner and the general contractor, that can really affect the subs and it's a rough thing because it's not always related to their work at all, it's something that's kind of out of their control, but that does impact them.
Speaker 1:I see, okay, anything else.
Speaker 2:Well, lots of things, I suppose I mean people. I think miscommunication is a large source of problems on site. So there's many times we'll hear oh well, he told me this and so I did this. And it's like okay, well, where's your change order? Oh well, he just told me to do it. Okay, but your contract says you need a change order. So now we've got two different situations going on there. So sometimes miscommunication can happen. So I think people have to be really careful to get things in writing most of the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, what about on the GC side?
Speaker 2:On the GC side, I think maintaining a good relationship with the owner in so much as they can and I know some owners are harder to work with than others but I think really just keeping open communication and addressing problems early, I think that's kind of a trend. I think a lot of lawyers will tell you don't let it balloon, don't let it be a $4 million claim at the end of the project. Talk about it earlier, get some legal advice, get the lawyers in the room and the project managers and whoever's making decisions over there and try and hash something out.
Speaker 1:How often do interactions with cities permitting, and a lot of stuff make its way into these problems?
Speaker 2:I haven't seen a lot of permitting issues. I know there are some firms that have dealt with those sorts of things. I think that'd be more on the owner end, but that can come up for sure. And certainly if something goes wrong, cities and municipalities are brought into it sometimes.
Speaker 1:And have you dealt with any safety claims, the things that go wrong. Ok, so what's typically? Where's the trend there, when most people drop in the ball?
Speaker 2:I don't know if there's a particular trend for that that I could really identify. I think it kind of depends on the site. I mean, I think making sure you have a good solution for where your water is going and how you're managing the site during excavation, that's pretty critical. I mean, that's a time where things can go wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we did see that footage on the news of that wall that slid down. That's right. Oh my god, that's it. As a lawyer. You're looking at that going, oh OK.
Speaker 2:Oh, I think my jaw dropped to the floor when I saw that on the news. That was just terrifying, and it's just so lucky that no one was injured. From my knowledge, yeah, no, totally.
Speaker 1:So. Just lastly, I just wanted to ask how is the consciousness around projects because of technology is it becoming? Are people paying more attention, less attention, expecting technology to kind of do work for them and it's getting missed in the databases and humans are not paying as much attention. Now, is it like that or is it? Do you think it's going the other way?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I think people are aware that it's here to stay and I think I see more and more clients adopting it, adopting new technologies and policies and things that they're going to follow. I think there's a certain changing of guard as well, with baby boomers starting to retire and the younger generation kind of coming up and taking over companies that maybe were their families companies and that sort of thing. So I think there's an energy there around technology and an openness to adapt to it.
Speaker 1:That's cool. So if you were to just give just one, do you have a statement, just one statement of advice, other than call us early? You already used that one. Is there anything else you can say to people that just look, just save yourself, and blah, blah, blah? What would that be?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I suppose don't think that courts the best and only solution. There's a lot of ways that we can get you to your end point, and so I think that's an interesting conversation. Sometimes people will call and say this happened, we need to go to court, like slow down, there's a few things we can do before you have to go that route. So I think people just need to keep an open mind.
Speaker 1:Even the court wants mediation first.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of the time so I don't know waste the court's time.
Speaker 1:They encourage it for sure. Yeah, I mean because a lot can be worked out there especially when it gets down to that it's interesting, like upon mediation. I was taken to court once as a designer when my brand days. This crazy person said I copied their name and logo. And I looked at it and I thought, okay, as a designer, I'm like they're not even close, like this was crazy town. Anyway, it ended up.
Speaker 1:It went to mediation first and the mediator's supposed to be Switzerland and they're not supposed to go either way, and she actually said to the other party or to the plaintiff she told them that are you sure you want to go forward with this? I can't take a side here, but I think it's hard to define a likeness here.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure.
Speaker 1:That's very rare, though, isn't? It Is for somebody to say so mediators have to be neutral.
Speaker 2:I'm actually a certified mediator as well by the Law Society, but mediators are they do have to be neutral. But there is what's called the evaluative approach. Sometimes people will choose a mediator because they have a particular expertise. So, for instance, I've done a lot of construction. People might choose me for a construction dispute because I know the terms, I know the contracts, that sort of thing. So sometimes people are looking to the mediator for a little bit of tough love or kind of it's not advice, because it can't be advice.
Speaker 2:You have to get a lawyer to give you independent advice. But an observation they'll kind of look to the mediator, who's experienced in that industry, for observations about their thoughts on some of it and see if that can help them determine what they want to do. But sure, the mediator has to stay neutral, though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, got it. Okay, all right, stephanie. Well, this was awesome, thank you so much. Good to know you. You're in the podcast bubble. I'm looking at your business card here, so I'm just going to look at this. This is synthesislegalcom. That's how people can get hold of you. That's right. Yeah, and nice business card, by the way.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Tension to detail.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Very nice Jukebox. Maybe Jukebox did these. No, no, Moo, oh Moo cards yeah, Okay, yeah okay, you get this yeah.
Speaker 2:It's very nice, thanks to you. Okay, really appreciate it. Thank you very much, you're welcome.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Well, that does it for another episode of the Site Visit. Thank you for listening. Be sure to stay connected with us by following our social accounts on Instagram and YouTube. You can also sign up for a monthly newsletter at sitemaxsystemscom slash, the Site Visit, where you'll get industry insights, pro tips and everything you need to know about the Site Visit podcast and Sitemax, the job site and construction management tool of choice for thousands of contractors in North America and beyond. Sitemax is also the engine that powers this podcast. All right, let's get back to building. Yay, great, great, great. Thank you for you. So, while you're out there with us, on social media.
Speaker 2:I want to also make sure that you're taking home some of your devices and connecting some of your remote devices, plus just joining Some Super European.