Prompt Payment, Culture Change, And Collaboration with Katy Fairley

Money delays break projects long before rebar hits the deck. We sit down with Katie from Fairly Strategies to dig into how BC’s Prompt Payment framework could shift construction’s culture from excuses to accountability—and why it won’t magically rain cash. Drawing on lessons from Ontario, we look at why change orders power half of adjudications, how clearer timelines create leverage up and down the value chain, and what “faster payment” really means for GCs, trades, owners, and certifiers.

From there, we move beyond the buzzword of collaboration. Katie lays out the fundamentals that still matter most: fair, balanced contracts instead of 60 pages of one-sided supplementaries; procurement that’s actually open and transparent; and simple habits like phone calls, site visits, and cameras on. Real collaboration is constructive conflict with respect and speed, not a poster on the boardroom wall. When people are paid on time and treated like partners, ideas surface earlier, change orders get cleaner, and schedules breathe again.

We also wade into AI’s rising tide on the office side of construction—document analysis, proposal drafting, and the risk of hidden liability in AI-written text. The win is using tools to sift faster, then investing human judgment where it counts: interviews, negotiations, and field time. We talk bidding discipline under razor-thin margins, public vs. private delivery speed, and the economic pressures pushing teams toward fear and silence. The throughline is practical: set fair terms, give timely feedback, tighten change management, and replace email grumbling with short conversations that solve problems.

If you care about payment speed, fewer disputes, and a healthier job culture, this conversation offers field-ready steps you can use on your next project. Subscribe, share with your team, and leave a review to tell us where your organization is winning—or getting stuck—on prompt payment and collaboration.

PODCAST INFO:
the Site Visit Website: https://www.sitemaxsystems.com/podcast
the Site Visit on Buzzsprout: https://thesitevisit.buzzsprout.com/269424
the Site Visit on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-site-visit/id1456494446
the Site Visit on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5cp4qJE5ExZmO3EwldN1HH

FOLLOW ALONG:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/thesitevisit
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesitevisit

Transcript

Welcome And Session Recap

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Okay, back in the saddle. Hello, Katie.

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hi, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_03 0:03

I'm doing well.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Yeah, it's been a while.

SPEAKER_03 0:05

I know, I tough. How did your your uh sessions go?

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Really good.

SPEAKER_03 0:10

You did a whole bunch, right? You did three?

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Yeah, I did three, just covering covering everything, I think all the major topics, at least for me, what I think is really important in construction.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

So Welcome to the Site Visit Podcast. Leadership and Perspective from Construction. Your host, James Baldwin.

Prompt Payment Act Status In BC

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Recorded live from the top floor at Building Vancouver. Vancouver. Vancouver. Covered off getting paid, the new payment act, and what that might be. Uh it's a little bit steady, at least we're at the starting line. Um, you know, it's it's it's passed. The legislature did that on November 27th, so now we're waiting for for regulations to take a look at. A couple more steps to get there. Um, but you know, we're headed in the right direction. At least we're we're something closer than we were. But we're still probably, you know, I'm gonna put a timeline of like kind of 16 months to 22 months uh away from from seeing it enacted and seeing it be the law of the land.

SPEAKER_03 1:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Yeah. And then what was my other one? Oh, and then also equally important, uh talking about collaboration. Yes. Kind of going beyond the buzzword as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

That's what I want to talk about, too. I mean the prompt payment one's kind of been beaten to death until it starts to work.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Yeah, 100%. But we do need to educate industry on it. People need to start hearing all the little words and start wrapping their heads around it so that they're not caught flat footed when it does come in.

Payment Culture, Change Orders, And Accountability

SPEAKER_03 1:41

So is it the GCs or or and and the subs are kind of at odds with each other on this?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

I think it's everybody right down the supply chain. Um, you know, the money flows from the owner. I think there's you know always a hiccup there with the payment certifier or big C consultant, whoever's uh, you know, reviewing invoices, progress on work.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

Like Prime Contractor, you mean?

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Uh no, the payment certifier, like whoever's whoever's approving payment. Yeah. And then down, you know, there's obviously I shouldn't say down to the owner, but then with the owner and certainly between the GC and trades. Um, definitely. Uh but it's, I think everybody's at fault and everybody has a role to play.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

Right. Yeah, it's gonna really, I think that the change order business is gonna be very interesting with that.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Well, what we know out of Ontario and the data that they have is that 50% of the adjudications that move forward are all about change orders and valuation of services.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

So it's it's like 50% of that business is change orders. So it's gonna be, it is gonna be really interesting. But we also know that it, you know, I don't think money is not gonna rain down from the heavens for everybody. And folks that think it's gonna solve all their problems are gonna be disappointed. But what we have heard from across Canada and all these different jurisdictions that have brought it in is that it inherently changes the culture of payment. And that's that should excite everybody. Uh, you know, folks in other parts in Alberta, you know, Ontario, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, there's so many of them now that have it, um, you know, they've they've said that it's changing. It's it's inherently speeding it up, and that's just better for everybody.

From Payment To Collaboration

SPEAKER_03 3:18

Yeah, I mean, I guess it it it provides leverage all around the, all around the value chain, right? Because it provides leverage from the subtrade to the GC, and then the GC to the to their customer, their client. So like, look, I gotta do all the stuff. I need these, I need this money to flow, otherwise I can't. Because it's the rules now. Whereas before it was like find a way to finance the project without giving me the money, and you know, it's 45, 60, 90 days.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Yeah, whatever days, whatever days, maybe never. I mean, maybe, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Holdbacks like it to the nines. And and now they just can't do that. So I mean it's pretty provides some leverage.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Yeah, it's gonna have accountability. Um, I think was what's really exciting. And then the other part of it is gonna be gone are the days where a trade turns to a GC and goes like, hey, where's my money? And the GC goes, ah, you know what, didn't get paid this month, ah, try us again in a in a little bit. That will not that will be gone.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

You know, and that unless people allow it to still exist. But um, yeah, it's gonna it's gonna be a big change, it's gonna be an exciting one. Um, but I do think that payment does also go to collaboration. You don't have any collaboration of someone sitting there and they haven't been paid.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

No.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

Okay, so um that's a nice little segue for you.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

It is it's you're a professional, especially. But it is, it it is. It's actually one of the the uh aspects that I did touch on uh yesterday on my collaboration beyond the buzzword was yeah, it's like payment.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

Yeah, pay me and then we can talk.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Absolutely.

What Fairly Strategies Actually Does

SPEAKER_03 4:44

So you um so fairly strategies, how are you getting involved with companies on and what are they doing with you? With I mean you're coming here and talking about all this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:56

And where how where exactly are you getting involved? What is what is the line item in your invoice look like uh from a description point of view? Like what are people getting a lot of value from you on?

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Well, I think it's the I would say the kind of the expert advice. The line I've probably used before with you is I'm a recovering general contractor.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

So I'm not a lawyer, I don't give legal advice, I you know, stay far away from that. But what I can provide is, you know, what is the rest of, what is the marketplace, what's that value chain? Yeah. How are they looking at your project, at your processes, particularly from like the owner's standpoint, kind of either public sector, private sector uh developer types. I worked with a Strata once. Oh yeah. Once and only once. But yeah, so usually a lot of the services I provide are around providing that expert opinion on what they're doing, where they can improve, you know, either their contract terms in in conjunction with their legal counsel, how they run their procurement processes, you know, looking at that. Um, and then, you know, but looking at from the standpoint of like what kind of relationship do you want to have with everybody working on your job? And um and then the other part of it is training, which I probably enjoy the most, is just you know, spreading the spreading the good news of best practices and how they can help construction delivery as well.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Okay, that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Well, and I've just I'd be remiss if I didn't say that maybe the most important thing that I do is I also provide consulting services to the BC Construction Association and the COVID. Oh right, yeah, no, I've seen you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I think that's uh, you know, I'm back on the light side of the force. Um, helping industry.

Collaboration Beyond The Buzzword

SPEAKER_03 6:34

That's pretty cool. So um, so back to the the the collaboration piece. What are like the main, do you do you sort of split up this concept of collaboration or like main pillars of like what supports good collaboration, I could say?

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Yeah, I think that it's a good, it's a good question because you know, collaboration can mean a lot of things. It can mean trust, innovation, but it can also mean conflict. Um, and there can be really healthy conflict of how you're gonna, you know, collaborate and bring forward great ideas to make the project run better. So for me, and what I was talking about yesterday is going back just some of the fundamentals that we've somehow lost, you know, over the years.

SPEAKER_03 7:13

Like character and pride?

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Yeah, I think everybody is very prideful to be working in construction, no?

SPEAKER_03 7:19

Well, it depends. I mean, there can be sometimes a bit of so when there isn't loud collaboration, um, that's when you gotta be worried. It's because people are kind of browned out, they don't care.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:34

And they're just going through the motions. Yeah, checked out. Checked out is the opposite of collaboration.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Yeah, uh that's very, very true. And you know, but there's some basic things now, and again, I mean, this seems really obvious, but uh I'm sure you know folks are gonna be no nodding their head there too, is like stuff like you know, turn on your camera, you know, like go out to site, pick up the phone, um, whether to call somebody or if somebody calls you. You know, get out of email and kind of grumblings and things like that.

SPEAKER_03 8:01

Um grumblings, what's that?

SPEAKER_00 8:04

You know, the little email grumblings that folks, you know. There's two, I would say there's, you know, kind of this line I've used, this is maybe slightly offensive to all of us in industries, you know, there's two things that people are good at in construction, is building things and complaining about building things.

SPEAKER_03 8:18

Oh yeah, no, I like that.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

That's very, very true.

Back To Basics: Calls, Site Visits, Cameras On

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Yeah, it is, yeah. So, but I you know, I think some of the you know items is things like fair and balanced contracts. You know, not shifting risk inappropriately, um, you know, that undermines again like the state of the project. You know, it's really, really hard to have collaboration when you've got, you know, 60 pages of supplementaries on a standard form, fair and balanced contract. Um yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. So it is a, you know, it's you you think you're like, man, yeah, of course, but it's it's where we've moved away from. Um, you know, same thing with procurement, you know, we're we've seen that shift away from, you know, fair, open, and transparent.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

So what do you think there's also a um I mean AI is gonna help with us a lot because it it can shift through a mountain of paperwork and give you the stuff that's really important uh for what you're trying to find at that time.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:12

Um but like having to stare at screens all the time.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

I know.

SPEAKER_03 9:16

I mean, A, it sucked when you had to like go through a mountain of paper. That's even worse. Yeah. But at the same time, it's still in front of you. Whereas I mean a good analogy would be oh not an analogy, but a good example would be that let's say that you were to look at the screen time you have on your phone personally, and then you add the work, and you're like, I am not paying a lot of attention because I'm on the screen too much.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:43

In general. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

What do you actually do?

SPEAKER_03 9:46

Um it's it's like I don't know whether or not people can sustain that kind of amount of screen time.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

So um what do you what do you think about the A, the personal life pulling into how much attention people have? Because in order to collaborate properly, you need to be kind of checked in.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:11

Not checked out.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

So what are your thoughts around that?

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Well, I think that's and that's a big piece of it. Like if you have an argument with uh you know, with your your partner, with your kids, and then you're you're gonna take that into the office with you. You know, or a real life example from a couple weeks ago, my dog vomited on the carpet right at the start of a meeting. And you know, yeah, that was fantastic. That was his way of collaborating. Yeah, uh no. Well, I was supposed to be. Oh. And then I had to message in and say, you know, hey, FYI, I'm cleaning up dog dog vomit. Like I'll be, I'll be right there. But the nice thing is that folks were talking about that, you know, and then you build this camaraderie, you know, all thanks to Apollo. Like, you know, and I think that's part of it. Um as I was prepping for this.

SPEAKER_03 10:55

Is that your dog's name?

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:56

Oh, okay. I thought it was in somebody's software. I'm like, what are we talking about here?

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Yeah, no, we've gone off, gone off. Maybe it should be, it probably is.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

Apollo. Yeah. Nice, okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Apollo Creed.

AI At Work: Help Or Hazard

SPEAKER_03 11:06

Rocky. Yeah. Oh, nice. I like that movie. Yeah. That was the one with Mr. T in it, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Is it? It might have been.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

Yeah, because if Paulo Creed gets killed, yeah. Mr. T. Oh no, it was Ivan. No, five. Ivan Drago killed him. Oh yeah. Yeah, the Russian guy.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

It's always the Russians. Is it? No, I don't know. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:25

Getting off track. Yes. Okay. So um so in terms of being like being, what what are the main things? So on your, I want to dig into what you talked about at your speech. I wasn't able to be there. So what were you, what were the main things, the advantages or best practices for collaboration? Like what are the things people can do?

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Yeah, I mean, again, like some of this, it's going back to basics. One of the things that I'm hearing over and over again is that folks aren't getting feedback. You know, they submit a bid to an owner, they submit a proposal, whatever that might be, and it's a black hole of information. There's nothing. The owner goes dark, they have absolutely no idea. Now they may or may not get that contract, but they're not hearing anything back. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

Do you think that's something to do with the phone? Okay, so people don't phone anybody anymore.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like people got to pick up the phone.

SPEAKER_03 12:17

And an email takes it's harder to do. Yeah. It's not harder. It is more effort.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Now you get Chat GPT to write it for you.

SPEAKER_03 12:23

I know, but are people doing that in construction these days?

SPEAKER_00 12:26

I think so. You m using like AI to help with drafting? No, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

There's one thing of drafting. For sure they would do that. But it responding for you, like an agent, an AI agent like dealing with your email?

SPEAKER_00 12:38

I don't know if we're there yet. For most people, I'm sure that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

I hope the office wouldn't let them because it's just that'd be a little bit too much.

Interviews, Relationships, And Real Expertise

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Yeah. We might get it to a place, but I I do wonder at some point, you know, do we end up with uh like AI zombies, you know, folks that you know are really good at using AI and asking the right prompts and getting the information. But are they, you know, if somebody asks them in real time, one of the things I was talking about yesterday is like, you know, getting in person, having interviews, if, you know, as you talk about pro uh procurement, um and you know, like looking people in the the whites of their eyes. But I I think we're at a place where you're gonna see some junior folks, you know, not be able to answer questions in real time. Um and maybe that'll be okay. Maybe we'll be at a place where it's like, well, just a second, I'm gonna ask my chat agent bot, you know, and they'll have the answer for you. But um I don't know where that leaves all of us. And you know, a big part of this, right? I don't think I've said it yet, or we, you know, we haven't talked about it, it's just relationships. You know, is ultimately you're not really gonna be able to collaborate if you don't have a good, good relationship. Um But I think the heart of it for me, this is why I call collaboration the second C word, um, is because construction is collaborative. You can you can piece that together.

SPEAKER_03 13:55

Second one. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Yeah. All right. Anyway, oh you might have to cut this part, but it's like, see you next Tuesday.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Yeah, it's a second C word.

SPEAKER_03 14:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Um but you know, like it's yeah, we're a relationship business, but a lot of those relationships are abusive. And uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

Is it are they abusive because of the power dynamic?

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

Someone has the money, someone needs the money?

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Yeah. Somebody's dictating the contract terms, you know, they're dictating everything. They're in control of it. I think definitely there's like that power imbalance, but I think that's also because people have let that fester. You know, they haven't pushed back on the bad practices that exist out there. You know, they let people get away with long with late payment, you know, bad drawings, um, you know, incomplete information to do a change order, like all all all the, you know, you might find it boring, uh you know, but it's like all those like little things. Uh we've just let slip and and it has definitely there is that power and balance. Yeah.

Reliance On AI And Hidden Liability

SPEAKER_03 14:53

Um so can we just double click on this AI thing for a second? Because I I think it's kind of interesting. Yeah. So the zombie part I totally get. I mean, I've I've seen it a couple of times, and God bless my people um who work at SiteMax, they're awesome. Yeah. But sometimes, you know, um, and I encourage them to use AI for as much as possible, but sometimes I'll get, I'll ask, uh I will get given something that is like eight pages, and now it's mine to go through. It didn't need to be eight pages, just something made at eight pages, and then I ask about a specific thing, they go, oh, I don't know, AI made that. I'm like, what do you mean? Like, why give it to me then? Yeah. So um it was pretty benign what it was, but it was just I just wanted to make an example of it. Let's at least have like a pretty high conscious level of what you're sending out or distributing. Have you read it even?

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Yeah, no, it's the critical thinking skills. And you know, it's funny that you mentioned that, like, um, you know, back to the procurement stage. I think we've we've reached a place where we've probably got AI drafting procurement documents, analyzing them from the market standpoint, you know, putting them into these different uh programs, yeah, that can like analyze the contract and they they shoot out eight pages of what you should know. Um so we've got that covered, and then I think writing the proposals.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Yeah, and I think that there's like, you know, a lot of companies that don't know can't speak about the project, um, you know, and they're struggling with that because, you know, I don't know, maybe it's AI writing it for them, but I think it's where that human touch is really gonna come back in. I think we're gonna be seeing that uh a lot more.

SPEAKER_03 16:36

So a lot of people talk about um who are not much supporters of AI, say, oh, it hallucinates, it does all the stuff. It's like, okay, fair enough. But I think the biggest risk that we have in the early days of this is unintended and undetected liability out there of AI generated stuff that we thought was done and dusted, that's out there.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Yeah.

Agents, Automation, And Office Jobs

SPEAKER_03 17:02

It could have been like a job contract, it could have been something that we're like, oh, AI made it, and it's out there now. And then You're living with it. You're living with it. My point is, I don't think we realize how much liability is actually out there already. Yeah from when the law from when AI was kind of a little bit rocky. Yeah. And it still is in some spots. So the that's the question. I think there's a number of facets there where A, you've got to have some consciousness around what you're doing. You have to be some there's an investment in it.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:33

If you have no investment in the thing that you're distributing, and it's just a means to an end, um, yeah, that's the devil in the details part.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

It is. It's the critical thinking, like you said. I mean, you got the eight pages, um, you know, it's it's distilling down. If somebody hasn't read that over, um, you know, who knows what could get captured in there. And I think it's the difference between kind of the the experts, the folks with the experience, and then people using those tools and more junior people, which is again awesome, but are they learning anything out of it? But it is, it's like, are they able to catch the holes and just the little tweaks to the language?

SPEAKER_03 18:14

Um, yeah, I I think that the reliance is addictive though. So even even so even if something uh made something for you, you would still go and say, okay, well, I'm gonna upload this now to whatever AI platform. Yeah. And then you're gonna say, um, can you I've got these concerns, can you see if you can find this for me? But it didn't, there was another concern that you didn't see. Yeah. Or you could say, um, is there anything in this document that could get me in trouble? And it missed something.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Yeah, or or it doesn't understand your business, your concerns, and so it makes broad generalizations. Um, and then yeah, you you miss that. Or it's pointing out all the things that you're like, whatever, like we deal, we deal with, we manage that risk every day.

Tools That Surface Risk And Free Time

SPEAKER_03 19:06

Okay, so there's a complaint complacency then because you are AI is gonna be giving you the stuff you're like, yeah, well I knew it would give me that.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:15

And then, yeah, God. It's um it's an interesting time, I think.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

It is.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

Um, what are you seeing in your business where you you said that um um you know contracts are going through maybe like a document crunch, you know that guy? Yes, yes. A lot of people use that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Um I hear good things.

SPEAKER_03 19:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Even from lawyers, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:37

Yeah, that it is it is uh Josh Levy, right? I think that's the guy who started that. I had him on the podcast years ago. Oh, cool. Oh yeah, yeah, no, like early on. Early on, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

Yeah.

Get Back On Site Without Micromanaging

SPEAKER_03 19:47

Um that's what happens when you're doing it for five years. It does a lot of technology that gets that gets uh yeah. But um do you think that there is um like is there a pressure of the way AI is make making people feel at the office, you think? In terms of do I'm gonna have my job? Um is all of this gonna go away? Like anything that is computer related.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

That I went on a screen and I looked at it and I went, okay, I need to make some decisions. All of that will be an agent.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Yeah. We're not there yet, though.

SPEAKER_03 20:29

We're not there yet. Yeah. Did you hear about um this thing called ClaudeBot? Did you hear about that?

SPEAKER_00 20:34

No.

SPEAKER_03 20:35

So crazy. Okay. So first you've heard of Claude before, which is Anthropic's product. Yeah. Just like OpenAI has ChatGPT. So first it started off as a thing called ClaudeBot, but Claude, like a lobster claw with a W.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Oh Lord.

SPEAKER_03 20:51

Okay? So ClaudeBot, and then Anthropic. Um so what that was was you download this thing on your computer. Okay? So it's not a website like the other ones.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

Um, you download it and you can get it to move your mouse around and do commands and get it to do things. So it can be another person. Yeah. I highly recommend if you're gonna do this, get another laptop. Okay. And just give it limited access to things.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Yeah, because I was gonna say, like, that's that's exciting.

SPEAKER_03 21:23

Like, no, it's exciting.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

But like it's a podcast, you nobody can see my face, but it's a little, yeah. That's a little stressful.

SPEAKER_03 21:32

Oh, it's stressful. So CloudBot came out and everyone was like, wow, this is amazing, all the things you could do with it. Um so you can set it up to do stuff. Like you, like you, like someone at work, you could say, hey, can you this week, can you do this, this, this, and this? You can prompt it to do that and do all of these tasks. Check my email, do this. Um, go, let's say for the site visit podcast, I could say, go on to the distributor that we have, go and download all of the um Um show transcriptions and go and make me articles for all of these and then post them on the website.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Amazing.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

It will do that.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Yeah.

Fear, Margins, And Bidding Discipline

SPEAKER_03 22:08

And it could do something like save these files on this folder on my computer too. Okay, so Claude bot. Then uh Anthropic, I think, cease and desist on using any reference to Claude, obviously, because it's their name. So then they went to Moltbot.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

And then now they that I don't know if it's great branding. So I think, and now it's called OpenClaw.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

Okay, so OpenClaw is a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Yeah, back to back to the claw.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

Back to the claw.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:40

I'm sure I don't know if OpenAI likes that. So they've basically blended the two names. But now there's something called Malt Book. Malt Book is basically like a community Facebook for these agents. So that they can talk to each other.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

I heard about that. And they they talk about what people are are asking them and what they're, you know, they have their little opinions and whatnot.

SPEAKER_03 23:06

Well, apparently, according to one of my developers at SiteMax, that's average, it was actually supported by real people.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 23:12

Part of it. So that's kind of BS in some way. But I'm sure it's real in lots of other ways. But anyway, so as we go through this whole technological ascension in the next couple of years, what do you think of the office job? Like with if you got if you can set up agents for this stuff.

Public vs Private: Speed, Cost, And Layers

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Yeah. But I also wonder, I think in a couple years we will be there. Is like, okay, so let's just take like medical advice. You know, I'm sure we all go on to whatever AI like, oh, this hurts? Yeah, it's like, well, you know, what is this? Um but I'm gonna feel a heck of a lot more comfortable if a doctor's the one telling me that. But I do think, you know, like I think there's gonna be something to be said for experts. I think, you know, younger people coming into whatever field like they're in, um, it's I think it's gonna be more of a challenge for them. Like it is that, you know, and we've heard about it, is like kind of the entry-level positions. If you're not positioned as somebody that is the expert that can, you know, uh parse out and review the information that's being like spit out from AI, that's gonna be a tougher, tougher balance of it all, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:27

Well, if you if you're like, well, I don't like AI, I don't think you're gonna have a job.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

I agree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:31

You have to embrace it.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Yeah, if you're not used to giving good prompts that say, you know, don't give me eight pages, you know, I need two pages, and like kind of giving it that that again, like good prompts, the good description of what you want to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

But into into construction again, what can get interesting is, because we're like I'm shoveling this all back into the pile of collaboration again. Because I don't know about you, but sometimes I'm collaborating with AI to ask questions.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:02

So maybe there is a what would be fantastic is if you had a collaboration hub which had Katie's idea on XYZ initiative. We had James's, we had so and so, so and so and so-and-so, and the AI analyzed all of it.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:22

And then gave us stuff to talk about.

Prices, Inflation, And Who Gets Pushed Out

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Well, I wonder who would be, who'd be writing that that agent. It would probably be the owner. Um, you know, so I think we might be, we might be back to that, you know, like circle of trust of whether or not we we do. But I think, I think there's like the kind of the sky's the limit of where we might go. And then also I just think it's gonna change enough that people are gonna adapt to it. But I think there are, there's gonna be some um, you know, is that a different conference? If I'm allowed to name other conferences last week, I know. Um still construction. But yeah, it wasn't that different. But you know, just I think some of the tools out there now, you know, to analyze a project, to see the risk, you know, to look back through the old data of a construction company and to see, you know, like you know, where where have been the issues, you know, with either project delivery or uh, you know, disputes with the owner and like you know, that have impacted that relationship again. Um I think yeah, the the sky's the limit, but it's you know, I mean maybe maybe it's not so much of an impact to folks in the office as it is um you know freeing them up to focus on the big things.

SPEAKER_03 26:34

Do you think it'll pull people back to being on site more?

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Maybe. I mean, I do think people need to get you know out on site. That was one of the comments, you know, I've heard it's like project managers need to get out on site. Uh, you know, but it's the same thing, people need to pick up the phone, you know, meet meet in person, turn on cameras, all that.

SPEAKER_03 26:51

Well it is the physical world. I mean, people should be out. Yeah. Are you freezing?

SPEAKER_00 26:58

No, no, no. I'm a little bit cold, but it's not too it's fine.

SPEAKER_03 27:01

Yeah, at this time yesterday I got the rigid.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 27:05

I can feel it.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

They are, they've got a they uh the the breeze going. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:11

Is that a sign of age? I'm complaining about drafts? Probably, right? Probably. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Yeah. Well I'm sitting here in like what? Sweater, just like my tea. Yeah. It's a cardigan? Um, I don't know, sweater. Cardigan? I think cardigan. Cardigan. Yeah. Cardigans are are thinner. I don't know. This is just my I'm freezing, I put it on. I like it.

SPEAKER_03 27:31

Yeah. Um so if if we were to say, what do you think are the if the push is for everyone to come on site all the time, um, do you think it there needs to be a preparation for that. I think there's a lot of a lot of time when the super is like, hey, PM's coming.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Oh my god, like talk about disrupting a site. Like I I don't think they I don't think they want that either.

Commutes, Access, And Real Costs To Work

SPEAKER_03 27:59

Right. Like leave me at a lead me uh to my own devices too. Yeah, because there is a this like the the job site is the the domain of that of that super or of the foreman from the other from the subtrade showing up. That's like, you know, I I don't know if I want that person uh showing up to make sure that that's that's cool. I mean that's a little bit different, but maybe it's that's more oversight.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

I guess I'm gonna go to the case. Yeah, the oversight versus micromanaging. Yeah, like okay, there's an issue. Well, have you gone out and looked at it yourself? I'm I'm not talking like this is just you know, again, like getting back to that, like the physical world, like you said, like getting back to that. Um, yeah, and again, you know, this isn't about checking in on anybody or people, you know, doing things, but it's about like having an awareness, you know, of the project that you're that you're on. Um yeah, but uh also again, I mean, it goes right to anything, like, you know, doing your contract negotiations in person. Um, you know, doing your interviews in person.

SPEAKER_03 29:01

Will it come back to that? People are just so busy.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Well, that's what I'm saying. That's where I think we have to do. But we've been talking about AI taking loads off of people's, you know, plate, and as long as we're not less busy piling on, yeah, that they have the opportunity to go and do these things that over the last couple years maybe they haven't been able to.

SPEAKER_03 29:22

Yeah. There you go. Lots of great uh great things to look at here at uh BuildX. At BuildX, always.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Yeah, that was great. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:32

High Viz. Yes. High Viz outfit.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Yeah, nobody's nobody's getting run over. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

All right. Um what is the reason I like talking about to you is because you can almost kind of dig in a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Yeah, I'm also like geeking out over the stuff that nobody else wants to talk about. Oh no. Okay, good. No, it's all good. Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

Um what is what do you find concerning in construction right now? What are you thinking? Uh-oh, got this coming down.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

That's a good question. I think like, you know, the stuff that I've been talking about here, my three sessions at at BuildX are all about things that people know, um, or maybe they don't know. I don't I actually don't think they know the unintended unintended consequences, a lot of the actions, but it's go, it's going back to basics, it's going back to some of the best practices that we used to have, but folks either from you know, fear of lawsuits, uh, fear of being wrong, whatever, whatever that is, just this this fearfulness that that seems to have kind of invaded at least the the topics that I talk about to people about. Um fearfulness. Yeah. Like I said, fear of getting sued, fear of making mistakes. Fear of looking wrong, looking stupid, you know, all of that. Speaking up, wrecking the relationship, heaven forbid.

Pick Up The Phone And Talk

SPEAKER_03 30:58

Well, the fear is clearly attached to margin. Because when margins are very slim, then it can't go wrong. The pressure is so if there's more profit to be made, you can have there's more slush, there's more room. Right? But if it's like razor thin and I could end up paying for this job, yeah, if I am not taking down your business. Yeah, it could ruin someone's life.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:30

Um actually.

unknown 31:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

Their marriage, like everything. Everything everything.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

So I can understand why there is this fear of being like ultra, ultra careful.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Yeah. Um but if if that like I agree with you, 100% agree with you. The flip side of that too is if if that was truly the case, people would be chasing after payment like nobody's business. You know, they'd be like, Where's my money? I'm at, you know, the doorstep of the business at 8 a.m. when they open to say, Where's my money? You know, but folks, like folks in construction, they don't speak up like that. You know, they don't and same thing, like if if folks are so concerned about their business, why are you bidding at those margins? When you're that's a good point.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

That's a really good point. Yeah, like that. When you know how it's gonna feel.

Where To Find Katie And Closing

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Exactly, because you you've been there, you know the drawings are are crap, you've worked with that owner before, you know that project manager or super or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

What if you need the work though?

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Well, exactly, and that's where all of this is easier said than done.

SPEAKER_03 32:33

Okay. So that means though, is that we need an uptick in construction in BC, which we don't have right now.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Yeah, and that's tough. I mean that's where we've It makes it all worse. Yeah, we've got the budget coming out, so hopefully the provincial government continues to uh you know fund uh construction projects because residential is obviously uh slowed down, I guess to put it politely.

SPEAKER_03 32:55

And yeah, yeah, but isn't a double-edged sword if we just keep funding everything, or what everything's just gonna cost more anyway, we've got to pay for it. Well that's that's it.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

I mean, that's the circle of death. Yeah, I'm I'm glad I'm not in government to make those calls. But yeah, I mean you look at the cost of construction, like it's insane to me. You know, the cost of building a school, you know, 40, 50 million if you're if you're lucky. Like I remember when it, I'm not joking, like it used to be 12 million. Like that's wild, wild stuff.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

So we have down near where I live, there's a new school in Koal Harbor here that's been built. Okay. So it's uh K through 12 small school with um low-income housing above it.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Cool. Yeah, that kind of mixed use now.

SPEAKER_03 33:40

That mixed use.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:42

Okay, so since I I've I've got that place in 2023 June. That's when they started the project. It's still not finished. Okay, plus um Boza is doing a building up on Georgia Street, yeah, 1515, and they're they're getting way up there. The the speed of private versus public is insanely different. So I'm thinking, like you you you would not believe the intricacies of the stuff going on in this school.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

I know, and that's uh which part of it.

SPEAKER_03 34:30

Like I yeah, I want to support the kids for sure. Okay, but they don't need these crazy like wooden hut playhouses, just two of them on the st on the roof.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah, there's like hyper redundancy for anything that might happen in the future and it's all the passion project of somebody who's actually a government employee.

SPEAKER_03 34:50

Yeah. Hello?

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Yeah. Well, on the level of approvals to go through, you know, that's another piece of it. Like to make a decision to move forward. Whereas you have like a developer, it's, you know, they're they're probably empowered to make those decisions and move quickly. Um less layers. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:08

But yeah, I mean, I think like how what do you what do you think it is? We we just gotta bring people back to moving to British Columbia. I mean it's a double-edged sword, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:19

I mean, yeah, because then you have to build housing and the infrastructure for the yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:22

And then the prices go up again.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

But let's face it, when we if we have a lot of imports of products, okay, we can't control that. It's not like we can go to, let's say it's s you've seen how expensive coffee is, right? It's not like we can go and change how much coffee uh in another country is gonna be. Like Ethiopia, I think, is a huge exporter of coffee. So if it's gone now from 20 bucks for you know the larger bags, and now it's like 30 bucks.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Yeah, the cost is at Costco or wild.

unknown 35:59

Wild.

SPEAKER_03 36:00

Cheaper? Or they've gone up?

SPEAKER_00 36:01

No, they've gone up. Like you can just like watch it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 36:03

And still curk on stuff.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

Yeah. Like anyway, sorry. That's uh when you mention coffee, yeah, so immediately you I get mine, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:11

You do, okay. Um but you get beans, right? And you you grind them?

SPEAKER_00 36:14

No.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

Okay. No, I'm talking ground, like unground beans are just nuts. Like crazy. So but if that's that's not gonna go down in price suddenly. It's just only gonna stay the same or maybe go up a bit. I don't see it being okay, now it's all ten dollars less. It's just not happening.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Yeah. So prices yeah, rarely go down.

SPEAKER_03 36:35

If rarely, if ever. Yeah. So if import prices stay where they are or go up a little bit, isn't inherently everything going to only go up again?

SPEAKER_00 36:50

I guess that's inflation. Hopefully we don't get into the psycho place we were in in 2021, 2022 and what happened there. Um, that was really damaging for businesses. But also, you know, you talked about kind of these low profit margins and people are operating on a wire. Well, what if what if industry goes, you know what, 3%, 6%, 10%? Like that, that's not good enough. I'm not taking on all this risk for pennies. Um, and they start pushing back. I mean, there's like that could raise construction prices and you know the cost of building.

SPEAKER_03 37:24

But it will. I mean, if we are if we're down at the I'm just being contrary.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

That's all.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

I mean, there's a price per square foot where it just I can't get out of bed.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:37

And we're there right now. So what happens? Do we open up the borders again and we've got more people coming and foreign investment? I don't know about you, but yeah, I do think it kind of sucks that um we pushed the bar up for young people to be able to buy their first apartment. Yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:58

But also, when I was a teenager or in my 20s, I didn't know anybody who owned an apartment.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

No.

SPEAKER_03 38:06

People that own apartments, like uh it was always expensive. I mean, it's not relatively as expensive as it is now. Clearly.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Well, and wages haven't, you know, kept the same pace and what they weren't then either. Well, there's probably like some debates, people smarter than me that have the data on it. But I guess a part of it though is like, do people need to own? You know, like this very Canadian obsession with the idea that they own homership.

SPEAKER_03 38:32

I know, that's that's the thing. That's the thing, is because our entire Vancouver um psychology is around real estate.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

That's how we've all made money, because we've actually made these cool buildings and now everyone around the world wants to come and buy one.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

Or buy a unit in one.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:50

But what's wrong with that? It's the same as any other great city in the world. That's what happens.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:56

We're in an international village now. Everybody comes and puts their money in these places. That's what makes them so nice. Because so much cash comes in. Well, as long as you don't wreck the place you're in, it does push people out.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Well, that's just it. I mean, like, who's going to be the cleaner in that building if they've got to be living out in Chilliwack because that's the only place that they can use the colours? Yeah, I see this is this is the problem. It is, it's this is the problem.

SPEAKER_03 39:20

Yeah, but I mean, the this is a perfect example for the Tesla robot, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:25

Come and clean the place.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Because we don't want to clean it. People don't want to come and clean it. People don't want to leave live, what is that? Chilliwack's what?

SPEAKER_00 39:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:34

90 kilometers away.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

That's why it's a great example.

SPEAKER_03 39:37

That's a really good example. And actually, you know what, that that is a there's a lot of stress also in construction based on baseline costs for people to get to job sites.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Oh, totally. Like do you like going on the North Shore, going out, you know, I don't know, UBC, but you know, folks, they adapt to that, they get used to it, they include it in their in their costs, but it's certainly, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:01

But what if you but what if you are, you don't have a company vehicle, okay, and you have to get to the job site. Is it is are they gonna pay you to get to get to work? No, because the get to work part's a different whole tax thing in general. It's it's it's a taxable benefit, right? So you gotta be careful on that. And if somebody is because we we you hear about this, um, I can uh maybe go into a trade rather than going to university, you know, because it's a lucrative. If if you get in there early in your late teens, early twenties, and you start to learn something, and then you can start your own business, then you can start to really kick ass at it.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:40

But in the early days, somebody who has no driver discount and they need to get a car, insurance is five to six thousand dollars a year.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

I know.

SPEAKER_03 40:51

So we're not even and and if you're gonna go to drive to a job site, there's gonna be the transit's probably untenable because it's who knows, depending on where it is. Yeah. But still, it still sucks, right?

SPEAKER_00 41:01

So And then that job site changes after six months, a year, two years. So it's not like you can move closer to your job.

SPEAKER_03 41:09

No, I know.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

Because then it just moves.

SPEAKER_03 41:11

So we've got a whole bunch of things that are kind of backwards and upside down. Um I'm sure it all ends up back to collaboration, but in order, in order for people to collaborate, everyone needs to be on the on a level set, solid foundation where they can all actually breathe for a minute.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Exactly. And that's you know, uh all the things that you mentioned are exactly it, of you know, understanding where people are either maybe literally or figuratively coming from in terms of like what's their day looking like. And then just those other things of, you know, how do you expect somebody to show up and do their best work when you know you've got a bad contract, you're not talking to one another, but then the onus is always on the on the contractor, on the trades, and on the consultants too, to like show up and do their best free work, essentially, which sometimes I do wonder it's like is that yeah, exactly. It's like is that really really what collaboration is, is that um you know each party up above in the chain wants the other one just to sit there, smile, and not complain. I I I think that's a lot of it all the time. But I think you know, again, like inherently construction is collaborative. You don't get stuff done without people working together. There might be conflict, it might be painful, people might not talk to each other afterwards, but you know, there is it's inherently, you know, collaborative. And I think for us to start throwing around that word, like you know, that buzzword, you know, it belies what construction really is.

SPEAKER_03 42:36

We're not collaborating.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:37

It's like, yeah, because you're every single time we're in a bad mood all the time. You can't collaborate.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Yeah, you're yelling at me on site.

SPEAKER_03 42:43

So isn't is the collaboration the extra, though? That people are just, oh, now I gotta collaborate. They're saying I'm not collaborating. I just want to be, I just want to be left alone, I want to do my thing, I'm gonna do my job, I don't want to collaborate. You know what I mean? There's that there's that kind of thing. Have you there was this movie I remember once this guy goes up to this bar and he goes, uh, I'll have a Coke, no ice. And the uh the bartender says, that's extra, man. It's like, why is that extra? Yeah. Oh, it's 'cause yeah, because I guess the drink's supposed to have ice in it and uh I guess it's more Coca-Cola.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Yeah. But I think, you know, if if you take away all the kind of all the onerous conditions that exist sometimes in construction by the choices made by everybody, you know, I think like that's where you're gonna have kind of quote unquote collaboration. You know, in which case it probably should be free or you'll you'll save money, but not probably through the ways that that folks think, like, you know, think. It's again going going back to the the basics of it all, to set set folks up for collaboration.

SPEAKER_03 43:46

Well, I would like to have some lots of collaborators. You're collaborating with me right now, this is pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

Exactly. Or are we just having a conversation and this is what what happens.

SPEAKER_03 43:55

You should people should have conversations. Get off the phone.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

Yeah. Or get on the phone.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

No, I mean off looking at it. Uh yeah and actually use it for what it's actual it's actually called a phone.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Yeah. It is. It's so wild to me that we're still calling them phones. Where's my phone? Yeah, and you see you see young people, they they hold it up as if they're holding a brick, you know, and like that's that's a phone to them, like you know, but for the rest of us it's like you know, oh yeah too fancy. Yeah, yeah. Oh it's funny. It's funny.

SPEAKER_03 44:25

All right, so how people uh people who don't know about you and your company plug it, let's go. Fairly strategies. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Oh my gosh, that's a it's a that's probably the best question. No, it's just I think anybody looking for conversations to have about you know contracts, um, you know, building better training, what that might look like, um, you know, procurement for sure, and how all of that can build relationships. And you know, if you're a public sector owner, developer, um, you know, any like I know I'm happy to chat. It's a horrible way to run a business, but I am I will chat to anybody about these topics.

SPEAKER_03 45:01

And you have a website?

SPEAKER_00 45:03

I do.

SPEAKER_03 45:04

Okay, what is it? Come on.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

www.fairlystrategies.com.

SPEAKER_03 45:08

Perfect, perfect. And you're on LinkedIn too.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

I am, of course. Nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:11

That's cool. All right, Katie. Well, um, it's like an annual thing. I like it.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

I know. Let's keep this going. Yeah, always. Thanks for inviting me. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 45:21

Well, that does it for another episode of the Site Visit. Thank you for listening. Be sure to stay connected with us by following our social accounts on Instagram and YouTube. You can also sign up for our monthly newsletter at SiteMaxSystems.com slash the site visit, where you'll get industry insights, pro tips, and everything you need to know about Site Visit Podcast and SiteMax, the job site and construction management tool of choice for thousands of contractors in North America and beyond. SiteMax is also the engine that powers this podcast. All right, let's get back to building.