Jonathan Griffith | Gathered for Good

This episode features a conversation* with Pastor Jonathan Griffiths on his ministry journey—from Toronto to Oxford and Cambridge—and the theological vision behind his book Gathered for Good. The discussion explores the importance of the local church’s physical gathering, especially in a post-COVID context, addressing challenges like disengagement, “fringe” attendance, and the rise of virtual church participation. Griffiths offers pastoral and theological insight into why committed, embodied church life matters and how leaders can cultivate deeper buy-in and discipleship within their congregations.

(*Note: This episode was recorded in mid 2025. Some time references may be slightly out of date for this reason.)

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

You know, a cultural I'm I'm gonna show up in church just because it's the thing that's done or what my parents wanted me to. That's basically death. And so if a university student comes to church, they're like, I'm serious about this, and I want to know how the whole thing fits together. I want to understand where governance and accountability is, I want to understand this, that, and the other. I want to know about your theology. And yeah, if you have a membership process, I'm gonna come to the class.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the CPT Podcast. I'm Zach Wagner. I am joined by my colleague Ray Paul, the director of operations at CPT. Hello, Ray. Hey. We just finished a conversation with Pastor Jonathan Griffiths, who serves in Ottawa, Canada, at a fairly large church up there, and is also the author of a recently released book on the importance of the gathered uh ministry or meeting or however you want to call it, the gathering of the local church, the gathering dynamic, the fact that the church is a gathering. The title of the book is Gathered for Good, God's Good Design for the Local Church, and spent uh a lot of time talking to Jonathan about his story and some uh connections with various uh segments to his ministry, PhD over in the UK, lots of things like that. Uh I'm just kind of bouncing all over the place here, but I'll just try to bring it back and ask you, Ray, uh, what's to talk to you about this conversation. That makes it sound like a more chaotic and disjointed conversation than it was. It was very nice flow through the conversation. It was very linear. It was great. You did a great job. The reliability is in my uh description of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

You're good. You're good. Uh what's standing out is something that I had in mind actually coming into the conversation was just how key and important this book is for our current moment. Yeah, time post-COVID, five years-ish after COVID, and actually how much we are still seeing the effects of it on our congregations. And so getting the opportunity to talk about church life, especially through this book that he's written, I think is really important. It's a ton of fun to hear his story and hear just his heart for pastoral ministry, especially his heart for it in Canada, which is clear even from a very young age. But I think getting to see how he's walked with his church even before COVID, which was really striking to me into the years following. And and that's starting some uh thoughts, and I imagine for some of the listeners, maybe conversations for you all as well, of what does it look like to uh pastor your church towards the importance of gathering? It's something I think about in even events that I'm planning or my church context of what does it look like to prioritize being together. And I think this book provides an opportunity to consider a lot of those things.

SPEAKER_03 2:54

Yeah. And I think also something that comes through, we talk in a few different ways about, you know, Jonathan is serving at a fairly large church. And this is always a challenge, as he notes, for larger churches, that you have people who are kind of sporadic attenders or just on the fringe is the language he uses uh in conversation with his staff as well. Um and trying to get people into that next level of buy-in and commitment and to see the value of really engaging and doubling down on their experience in the local church, and seeing that not as just uh, yeah, you'll get more out if you commit more, um, which is certainly the case, but really that this is a theologically and biblically rooted principle that the uh regular physical gathering is priority.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

And I think we we don't address this explicitly, but I think one of the things that this highlights is that it's not just put on a better event or preach a better sermon or have something flashier or more packaged to come to, but it actually starts as a theological work of what do you believe that the church is? What is what are the ways in which the church reveals the nature of the body of Christ, the glory of God, and what how does gathering play into that? I think this is where this conversation I think is is more of a a jump start to further ones of what does that look like in our own context? Because it's again, it's not just how do we package the thing better, but what actually does a congregation need to believe before it is truly able to take that next step into the into the gathering.

SPEAKER_03 4:38

Yeah, absolutely. There's more I could say, but uh perhaps we should just get into the conversation. So uh without further ado from the two of us, we'll do that right now. Jonathan, thanks so much for joining us. Great to have you on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Well, great to be with you, Zach. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

Yeah, lovely to have you, like I said. And uh we have you on for two reasons. One, to get to know you a bit, as is our custom here about your story, as well as to introduce um the audience and talk to you a little bit about a new book that you've recently published. I have it here, Gathered for Good, God's Good Design for the local church, and that's with B and H and published, if I'm not mistaken, just February of this year. So very, very recent. Am I right about that? Yeah, that's right. Fresh off the press. The press? Yeah, it's it's it's warm in my hands as we're as we're looking at it here. So uh before we get to that, as I said, as is our custom, we'd love to get to know you a little bit. The way we often frame this is tell us a little bit about your story of faith and then education and then ministry. So, how about to start you tell us a bit about where you grew up, um what your church experience was like, and how the the Lord called you to himself.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Yeah, glad to do that. So I grew up in Toronto, Canada. Um my family are from the UK, but I was born in Toronto and grew up there. Oh, really? Okay, yeah, yeah. So had the had the privilege of growing up in a Christian family. I ministry background in my family. Um, my my actually on both sides, but my grandfather on my father's side was a Baptist minister who was called from the UK uh to a church in Toronto, which is where I grew up. But um, he had a fascinating background in ministry. He's he's still alive, he's 103 uh at the present time. But yeah. This is your grandfather? My my grandfather, yeah. And um, I mean, his story is fascinating. I've just been thinking about it because I've been uh dealing with boxes of papers and things like that that go go way, way back. He served in the UK in in some different contexts, but one of them was uh in Spurgeon's Tabernacle uh in London in the 50s. He was the senior pastor senior pastor there. Yeah. And so I've got boxes of some Spurgeon stuff.

SPEAKER_03 7:00

I was uh did I hear that right? Yeah, he was the senior pastor. Okay, oh okay, then I heard wrong. So how many gener uh so how far on from Spurgeon himself was this?

SPEAKER_00 7:13

So this was in the 50s. So my grandfather was very young, he was 29, I think, when he went there. And um, there were still a couple of people in the church who had been alive under Spurgeon's ministry at that time.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

Yes, and remind I suppose me and listeners, Spurgeon was there late 19th century.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

That's right. That's right, yeah, and died you know, reasonably young in Mentone in France. Um, but any anyway, I mean we could go on about Spurgeon and we could have the whole time on that, and that'd be fun. But but um but anyway, my so my grandfather was called from the UK to Canada to a church in Toronto, and so that was what brought my family from the UK to Toronto, and I grew up there uh initially under his ministry uh in Calvary Church in Toronto, which is a wonderful fellowship still going strong. But I was introduced to the gospel and to the life of faith young. And I I really, you know, I on on one level it's it seems like a very ordinary and unexciting testimony, but but it's wonderful because I don't remember a time when I didn't didn't understand the gospel and didn't know the Lord. And I'm thankful. And I I suppose that in that I had a um sort of an inspiration for ministry. I think my grandfather was very keen for me to go into ministry and talk to me a lot about it, and um and something of that stuck. And so I was interested um in studying theology and interested in ministry. I think one of the things I recognized as a young Christian in you know 1990s Toronto, early 2000s Toronto was that it was a very post-Christian, not terribly friendly environment for the gospel. And I I picked up on that and I saw that there was a real need in, you know, in my context where I was growing up and where I lived for the gospel and for vibrant gospel ministry that really reached people, these urbane, skeptical people, and um and that might have an impact. And so I was interested in that. And as I was contemplating what to do in terms of education, um I I was interested in exploring opportunities for a theological education that would be robust, but that also wouldn't actually extract me completely from the secular context. Um I was I was conscious of wanting to be able to talk to non-Christians and to be able to engage with the real world around me. So I I wanted to go rightly or wrongly, I wanted to go to a university where there would be non-Christians around me. So I wasn't at that point wanting to go to a Christian university, although they're fine ones, and it's not that I I have a problem with them, but that was what I wanted when I was a teenager to go to a mainstream university. Um and and so anyway, I various explorations took place, but I had the opportunity at the end of the day to go over to the UK to read theology at Oxford as an undergraduate. And that was fantastic. I I just had a wonderful time over there. Um there was, you know, it's an interesting environment. They've, you know, they've been teaching theology there for a long time, sometimes well and sometimes badly, but it's been woven into the fabric of the place. And there are a number of evangelicals now, and there were at that time.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

What years were you in Oxford, Jonathan?

SPEAKER_00 10:42

Yeah, I went, I guess I went in um 02 in 2002.

SPEAKER_03 10:49

And where and is uh sorry to interject, but uh just a couple kind of background questions. Were you thinking you mentioned that your grandfather was pushing you towards ministry. Had you taken that on board at this point? And or was it I think theology would be a good thing to study, so I'm gonna go take this opportunity to read at Oxford for that.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Yeah, I I think I had taken it on board that I wanted to do something um by way of gospel ministry with my life. I felt probably pulpit ministry by that stage, but I was open to academic work as well. Um I think I'd I'd been in an environment actually at high school um that that prized academics, and I guess my family did as well. My sister is an academic, she's a medieval historian. Um and and so I was open, I was open to you know serving the Lord in a minus in a ministry context, but through study and writing and teaching. Um and I so I didn't know how this would play itself out, actually. But I I I I think I probably imagined that uh you know pulpit ministry was more likely, but I wasn't decided, I would say, at that point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:06

Um yeah, so another follow-up question. I think many of our listeners will know this, but perhaps you don't. I had spent some time in Oxford uh working on a D fill fairly recently. I've actually just moved back last year. I didn't know that. Um and the uh so it's very interesting. You know, I had a brief stint teaching, as is often the case when you're a PhD student, and uh the culture between the postgraduates and the undergrads in the university is such that the undergrads, at least on the New Testament side, it's much more of a mixed bag for people reading theology. Some uh it's about half and half. Some are Christians, some are thoroughly post-Christian, or perhaps even hold to a different faith, or are kind of more uh humanist spiritual or something to that effect. So it's a very interesting mix on the undergrad side of people of faith and people of no faith. Was that the case when you were reading um for theology in the early aughts? And what what college were you at? I suppose I should ask as well.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Well, yeah, so uh that was the case. There were a number of clear-cut evangelicals and believers, you know, and still in touch with who are in ministry who read theology with me as undergraduates. At that point, so at that point, and this has changed. Wycliffe Hall, which is the uh um more sort of low church Anglican evangelical tradition college, um, took undergraduates to read theology.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

Yeah, they don't anymore, yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

And they don't anymore. And my family's sort of stipulation was I can go and do this, but I need to be at Wycliffe to be safe.

unknown 13:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Uh so um so that's what I did. There's the bubble of protection, such as as it as it were, yes. And and at that point, Wycliffe was really flying high with the undergraduates. They were doing really well. I mean, they'd had a number of years of sort of pretty much topping the charts in terms of academic success as the undergraduates. And and it was popular, and and you know, others from evangelical families were making the same decision. So I uh Wycliffe was my top choice, my only choice college. And my decision was I'll go to Oxford if I can do it at Wycliffe. And uh David Wenham was the dean at that point and was teaching New Testament, which was superb. I mean, it was really outstanding. So I had I had a great experience and uh had a there was a cohort of believers going through. Um I mean, I'm still in a sort of prayer group with another guy who was the same year and who's in full-time ministry uh now. So that was that was wonderful. I mean, things ebb and flow and and things change over the years, but um but I imagine it it doesn't at the same time, Oxford doesn't change that much. It doesn't.

SPEAKER_03 14:57

It's one of those places that's uh the the inertia is pretty strong against change in Oxford. So yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

But it was a great it was a great experience. I wouldn't I wouldn't exchange it for the world, I wouldn't do anything different today. I would do exactly the same thing, actually. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Jonathan, can you speak to your ministry experience? I mean, you've grown up in Toronto at that point and the church context there, you moved to Oxford. What does church life look like between these two spaces and how does that start to inform your sense of ministry at that point?

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Yeah, I mean, I think when I was growing up in, you know, fairly central Toronto uh, you know, in the 90s, there were in in terms of the kind of intellectual elite in the city and the center of culture, there were so few evangelicals. Evangelicalism seemed very marginalized, and it almost seemed like it was a dying breed in Toronto at that time. Uh, in the university life, there was very little Christian witness and not a lot of compelling university ministry to the university students. I uh um there was some, but it wasn't something that had a lot of momentum to it. I knew from friends and family. What was fascinating to me at Oxford was the sheer number of evangelicals and the vitality of evangelical life. I've almost never lived anywhere with so with with such a vibrant evangelical community as Oxford. And I was over in Cambridge after that, and it was the same thing. I mean, I remember showing up at St. Ebbs Church, and Zach, I don't know if you ever went to St.

SPEAKER_03 16:30

Ebbs when you were reparitioned there, yeah. You would have been at the very beginning of Vaughn's tenure.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Early days with Vaughn. Yeah, early days with Vaughn. I know. And um, I remember showing up, you know, on a Sunday morning and there were 400 undergraduates.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

And I'd never I'd never seen so many Christian university students in one place. And so that the mythology over here was, you know, evangelicalism in Britain was just about extinguished. And and you know, North America was stronger. My experience was the actually the opposite. Um, and I I think there'd be very few campuses of youth leading universities in the United States that would have such vibrant evangelical life as was found in Oxford, actually. Yes. Um, certainly in the Ivy Leagues. I don't think there's anywhere that has that. And so that was wonderful. And you know, the OIQ, the um intervarsity work there was very vibrant and was theologically conservative and was evangelistically zealous. And for me, this was eye-opening, and I thought there's something going on in British evangelicalism that I need to learn. And I would love if the Lord calls us back to Canada or calls me back to Canada. I wasn't married at that point, but um, you know, to to learn some of this and to be able to apply some of these lessons because obviously British evangelicalism is reaching a sector of society that Canadian evangelicalism and I sensed American evangelicalism was struggling to reach. Now, British evangelicalism, as it turns out, has been very good at at reaching the upper classes and the educated and has been less effective elsewhere. So there's a there's another side to it. Um, and certainly at that time that was true. But Oxford and Cambridge and central London were kind of bastions of evangelical strength at that time. Um and that was that that was fascinating to me. Um so yeah, I was in that.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

So we we better make sure we don't spend all of our time talking about Oxford. Two of us on a call of three, it could be dangerous here. Yeah. But the um so yeah, uh let's let's move forward a little bit. But I before we do, I'd love to hear just very briefly what are maybe a bullet point, two or three, of some of those lessons from British evangelicalism, such as it was, that you've carried forward into your ministry in the in the decades since.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

Yeah, yeah. Uh and sorry, Ray, you were asking about ministry experience. I I meant to say that you know, as I finished my PhD, I did go and take on a role in a in a in a church in Southwest England as the assistant pastor. Uh it was actually the church where Alec Matir had been the vicar. If that means anything to you, Alec Matheir, um many listeners to this will love Alec's books and uh and will have benefited from them. But uh anyway, that was a strong church with an expository ministry. And then I worked with an organization called the Proclamation Trust in London, which had been established to promote biblical expository preaching in the UK. And that was, I taught with them for three or four years. Um, I think I, you know, there are a number of things that I would I would take away from British evangelicalism. I think uh a very strong culture of expository preaching that is genuinely expository, that is really good at handling the text, figuring out what the text is actually saying, and making the message of the text the message of the sermon. British evangelicalism has uh got very good at that in the last 30 years. And I think North American evangelicalism has something to learn from British expository preaching. Um, a lot of what we sometimes would call expository preaching in North America, I think the Brits would say isn't really expository, and I think sometimes they would be right. Um, and so I valued that. Um, I think a simplicity of approach to ministry. I think in North America we can get very caught up in methodology. Um, and especially as churches grow larger, we sort of almost have to figure out a lot of management technique and this kind of thing. And and British evangelicalism is is a little bit allergic to that, I think, and wants to keep things simple and biblical and organic. And I think there's something there that is a good thing to bring back to North America. And I've been glad to have that those sorts of reminders ringing in my ears in sort of I mean, I'm serving in a mega church here in Canada, in sort of megachurch culture in North America. Um, that I think having had time in Britain with a more more simple outlook on church life and ministry has been quite beneficial to me, probably.

SPEAKER_03 21:25

So if you could talk to us now then about the decision to pursue a PhD. And you mentioned that you were kind of open to academic routes, but clearly you've gone to serve in the local church as a minister. Very often that's not an intuitive connection for folks. You know, if you want to be a pastor, why bother with the PhD when you could get an MDiv somewhere? And I understand that's different in the UK if that's where you're getting your training. But um, yeah, talk to us about the decision to pursue that and um how. you were processing out a time uh how that might relate to uh uh serving in the local church as a as a pastor.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

You know, so I I mean the the pastorate is is more than a a a teaching role, but it is a teaching role. You know, we we need to be able to teach the scriptures, to teach the word. And because of that, I think there is benefit in getting as much training as we can. So I you know I always encourage people, get the training you're able to get at the stage of life when you're able to get it. It's much easier when you're 23 to start a P or 22 or whatever I was when to start a PhD and to move on with it than when you're 35 or 45. It's it's harder and it's a tougher decision. I was I I was at a point of life where I had the liberty to do that. And I've so in a sense as much education as you can get I thought well I've got the opportunity let's go for it. I don't know whether I'm going to be a pulpit preacher, local church pastor or whether I'm going to be an an academic. Part of my question was what's going to be most beneficial to the Canadian church? I had Canada on my heart, you know, of being a seminary lecturer or being a pastor of a local church. I ended up feeling that the pastorate was was put me on the front lines and it was the right place to be. And I can say more about that later. But even sensing that that was probably the way it was going to go, I still felt getting as much training as I could was going to be of value. And it might keep the door open to to both serving in a church and doing some teaching which has actually proved to be the case for me here in Canada. So I've ended up doing both and I I am involved in leadership of a seminary here in Canada. I couldn't have done that had I not had the PhD. So that so it's proved valuable. But I what I would say for for someone who would only only serve in local church ministry as a pastor is a PhD of any value? I would still say it can be. And one of the surprising things for me was the extent to which the education of the doctorate itself was valuable. Even if no so forget qualifications and what people might know about it or what doors it might open for you or enable you to write books or whatever it is. Forget all that I I think a PhD trains your mind in a very valuable way that makes you a better teacher. Yes. And I think the training of mind the discipline of mind that cut that came from pursuing a question to an extreme degree and disciplining yourself to find answers from for me it was a it was a New Testament studies PhD so find answers from the text of scripture that discipline I think has been invaluable to me. And even if I never used the academic qualification even if no one knew I had done it whatever I still think it was it's proved valuable for me as a teacher of the word.

SPEAKER_03 24:59

Yeah. I think that's well said and we've seen that kind of in our own networks and fellowships here at the Center for Pastor Theologians that story told so many times over that the real value for pastoral ministry of a PhD is the formational experience of doing the PhD and the way it shapes your mind, Lord willing the way it shapes your heart. And I think perhaps ironically can often make you helpfully chastened and even humbled in your ability to understand and engage and teach in a responsible way. I think to your point, when you go after a narrow question to the nth degree, you learn a lot about that, but you also learn your limits on what you do and don't know. And there's something about a PhD that I think helps um in in the practice of ministry and of teaching in particular to as it's shaped you. So yeah we've heard that many times over so you did end up doing uh PhD at the other place at Cambridge as I understand I I'm gonna take one more opportunity to ask having lived in both Oxford and Cambridge which do you prefer? This is what you're taking I met my wife at Oxford and so her allegiance is there.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

We we watched the boat race with the children and it's very it's very very difficult to know what to do.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

But yeah which one I okay I to live in let's say that's to live in the Jonathan you should know that we have a third colleague who was educated at Cambridge and so he's not here he's not here to send Cambridge Zach's taking advantage of his absence.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

I'm gonna be so careful here. Yeah I'll tell you what if I was moving back to one I'd go to I'd probably go to Oxford I I think I think the the undergraduates at Oxford have more fun I think um I I think it's a fun place to be um but uh Cambridge is more consistently beautiful probably um and if you're a biblical scholar Tyndale House irreplaceable irreplaceable but they're both they're both wonderful i i'm from Canada so this is ridiculous I found Cambridge too cold I just there's like a Siberian wind that blows across the fens and you know Oxford is shielded in the valley there a little bit I don't know but they're both wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 27:35

Yes okay I love that answer. Yeah yeah no that's that's that's great.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

So um yeah quickly who did you study with at Cambridge? So my my my supervisor who is now at Oxford actually was is was a man named Peter Head who is an Australian I know Peter. Yeah he's a great guy Australian textual critic his brilliant and he was a he was a help to me and uh and we had we had fun. So yeah and and your topic so I wanted I was really interested in the question um of uh exploring what the Bible thinks about preaching and about biblical exposition and I wondered if there was anything in the Bible about expository preaching being normative in any way and I was fascinated at that time there was discussion um of uh the genre of Hebrews and its rhetorical shape and whether Hebrews was itself a series of expository sermons or a sermon in some way and so what I ended up doing was looking at Hebrews uh own self-perception as a piece of communication so the theology of the word of God in Hebrews and that's what I was pursuing exegetically that was that was great. That was great. Yeah did you figure out who wrote it that's what everyone always asks me that's what everyone always asks me no I mean I'll tell you my my favorite guess is Apollos actually but um Apollos is my favorite guess I think you could maybe make a case for it but um who is it who said it you know was it Oregon who said you know who wrote Hebrews God only knows right and um I think that's true.

SPEAKER_03 29:23

Yeah well my one of my uh supervisors uh Marcus Bachmule at uh Oxford is you were with him yeah yeah yeah and he but he's very partial to say well if if you asked most people in the first few centuries perhaps or origin aside who wrote Hebrews they would have said without hesitation it was the Apostle Paul and it's bound together with the letters of Paul and um so he'll he'll kind of he he's got his whole reception history and effective history um and uh living memory stuff and he's like well if the early church thought it was Paul maybe we shouldn't be so so quick to dismiss it.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Except it doesn't work yeah except it doesn't work with the opening of chapter two because the writer basically says that he wasn't an eyewitness and Paul would never say that yes no Paul would never say that so he wouldn't no not in Galatians no I don't think so with all due respect with all that yeah yeah yeah I guess you you hinted a little bit so now I want to move forward out of the PhD experience.

SPEAKER_03 30:28

You've taken a lot of time on this but it's great so no no worries there um into the kind of application for lack of a better word I actually don't love that word of that life of the mind formational experience that you had had both as an undergrad and now with a PhD moving into local church ministry um talk to us about the sense of calling there you already mentioned a couple places where you where you served and what that's been like on the other side well you know if we're if we're gospel people if we're committed to the work of ministry if we love the Lord and are concerned for the lost you know we're looking out and we're asking you know where are where are the great needs in our particular context um you know how is how is this community how is this culture going to be reached you know what what can we do?

SPEAKER_00 31:19

And and the answer for that is just it's just different for all of us isn't it but um and the Lord's gifted us in different ways and he's given us different opportunities. But I I found myself looking out on on Canada and you know the community in which I grew up and just thinking what is the what is the urgent frontline pressing need here and and it seemed to me it was preachers of the gospel and there was a dearth of biblically robust gospel preaching in urban centers in Canada. And and I I noticed that in Britain what seemed to have made the big difference and there had been a kind of evangelical revival in Britain over the last 30 years. I know things are difficult and it looks bleak and all the rest of it but there had been a certain kind of revival or revitalization. And it had been pulpit driven for sure in what I'd seen in the UK and I thought well if the Lord's given me a heart to preach and I can see that this is the crying need on the front lines in Canada maybe church based ministry maybe maybe having you know the privilege of of a pulpit ministry in Canada would be a great thing. And so that's where my heart sort of became inclined I guess and and then the door opened up to do that here here in here in our capital city. And so we walked through it. I also you know it's partly just wiring as well I ended up feeling like I could do the academic work but I found um too much time in the library and this kind of thing I just didn't suit my temperament. I I didn't I didn't enjoy the the library enough I think to be a researcher in this kind of thing. So so anyway I think the Lord inclined my heart and then opened up doors of opportunity for church-based ministry and that seemed to be the right thing to do but what I discovered was the particular door that the Lord opened up here involved opportunity for mentoring and training others for ministry and the and the church eldership and the church here had a heart for that too. And so that was this specific and special opportunity that opened up for me pastoral ministry pulpit ministry but also having an opportunity to mentor and train others for ministry.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

And that was kind of perfect for me you know yeah yeah tell us a little bit about where you're serving currently and how you came to be there.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

Yeah um so the church uh where I have the privilege of serving as pastor is called the Metropolitan Bible church it's always just known as the Met uh here in Ottawa it's been not to be confused with the Met in New York City. There's another one and I drove by that a few days ago but but no this one this is the more famous one obviously but um but yeah in Canada's Capital City church has been here approaching a hundred years and has been you know an expository center conservative evangelical with a vibrant ministry all that time which is wonderful because Canada's Capital City is not a naturally friendly place for the gospel um it's it's very you know it's very secular um very left leaning in every way and all and all these sorts of things but nonetheless the Lord has just been pleased to preserve this this um ministry and this gospel witness here and the church had ahead of my coming here the church had undergone a a season of extraordinary growth particularly in a Canadian context I mean I'm aware that you know uh our our our church would be you know a Sunday school class in Texas or something but up up in Canada it's it's it's larger and it's unusual um that the Lord has done that but um the church was wanting someone who would be an expositor um a shepherd and an expositor and the church did have a growing vision for raising up gospel workers I think seeing that there was a dearth of of the next generation of ministry leaders coming forward. So I stepped into this role in 2016 and um have responsibility for leadership in various things and the main pulpit preaching not all of it but the main and we've just seen within the ministry the Lord um bringing young people to us who want training and experience in ministry. And that's been very special actually over the last eight eight months.

SPEAKER_03 35:47

Wonderful uh in the time that remains I'd love to talk a little bit about this book that you've recently released. So um tell us every book has a backstory and we love asking kind of the origin story of this book uh where did that come from and what precipitated uh the idea for it?

SPEAKER_00 36:06

It was pre-COVID um we had a growing sense in our church that uh and we could I think we were able to sort of quantify this in different ways that we had a small core and a large fringe or however you want to frame that. So we had a core group of people who were there every Sunday uh who were members we have a membership structure who served who we presume gave um who were reliable and when something needed doing they did it and we had a large group of people who appeared on Sunday seemed to appreciate the preaching of the word um I say appeared on Sunday appeared two Sundays and four or three Sundays and four maybe maybe weren't involved in serving I don't know if they were involved in giving hadn't signed up for membership and so on. And that we began to feel was a problem.

SPEAKER_03 37:01

Well this is the 8020 rule as it's often articulated.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

Yeah yeah yeah and it probably was 8020 I mean that was basically what we figured um but but we spoke about having a a robust core and then a very large fringe and we started thinking what it what will it take to move people from the periphery to the core of church life? That'll be better for them that'll be better for us. And um there's something the 8020 thing feels very unhealthy. And you know we you know in in in the size of our congregation that is the the people at the extremity of the 80 we didn't even know them we didn't know who they were because they didn't make themselves known to us. And we really didn't like that. And it concerned us and so I started thinking through biblical categories and teaching that I needed to do to give encouragement to folk to really invest themselves in church life and to make it a priority. You know what does it look like not simply to be an auditor of the sermon but to be a part of the family. Yeah. And and so we started thinking around this talking about it as an eldership talking about as a whole ministry team I started preaching around some of these things. I did a series on um uh on I call it treasuring Christ together but what it looked like really to be in this together and and and so on. And and almost immediately after we did that so it started sparking all kinds of good things in conversation and discipleship and and we were really encouraged. And then almost immediately COVID hit and it was really interesting and we were I mean up here we we were really shut down for extended periods in these waves and everything was disrupted for years. And in one way I thought I was so providential that we'd done this because some of the discussion and the learning off that probably sustained us through COVID. Oh fascinating in some in some significant ways. But off the back of COVID having emphasized these things and re-emphasized them what we sort of discovered was the the the truly peripheral people who were never going to be anything more than peripheral they disappeared largely and didn't come back. But the people who came back were really with us. And the new people who came during COVID because of a spiritual hunger and sometimes a sense of desperation were really with us too and and sort of this other side of COVID we we found that that church has been something quite different. And the disparity between the periphery and the core has been much less pronounced.

SPEAKER_02 39:37

I mean it's still there you're never going to get rid of it but it's it's it's it's less pronounced and this has been something uh encouraging for us and something we feel we need to build on too Jonathan I'm wondering with this process that you started pre-COVID but the book itself coming out after what changed about what you wrote is it are there things that you found you did still need to re-emphasize or re-energize post-COVID or was it fairly similar?

SPEAKER_00 40:09

You know I think one of the things that I found I needed to give attention to post-COVID that I hadn't pre was this this idea that a virtual involvement in church is sufficient. And this is I mean this is the thing we've all been grappling with to greater or lesser degrees. We we did digital ministry very well in some ways and we learned some things and I mean my goodness for shut ins and people who are unable to leave the hospital or the home what we learned in COVID has been such a blessing to them because there are opportunities to have a sense of connection and to receive ministry in in in you know with quality I would say um that we we didn't have pre-COVID and that's been great. But of course we got so good at it some people think well this is fine you know I'm done this I'm I've got my Bible study on Zoom I watch the service on Sunday what else do I need? You know this is great and I and I don't have to deal with all and and of course we need we need to teach against that and say hold on I mean for you know if you've got a health problem or whatever sure but but but there is something about the gathering the physical gathering of the people of God which is theologically significant in biblical theology I mean it the discussion of it goes right back to the garden actually and it takes us to the new creation there's a big biblical theological seam and on Sunday mornings as we gather we are tapping into that and we are picturing it and visualizing it in a way that's meaningful. And so I've I've I felt the need to articulate that in a way that I didn't feel the need pre-COVID even as I was grappling with some of these other issues. But but post-COVID and and this is how the book took shape it it became clear that this whole idea of church and what it means to be part of church and involved in church needed a refresh kind of you know global in a global sense. And um there was a sense of urgency for that coming out of COVID which we felt and you know ultimately the publisher felt as well and so we we pursued it in this project which is which has felt timely for sure. Yeah absolutely yeah yeah go ahead Ray.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

I'm curious about one other thing that might be a bit of a difference in what it looks like here in the States but even generationally there are some issues with institutional affiliation. I'm thinking especially some of the younger generations, they're very unlikely to actually be a member of something or or join in in that public way. There's going to be a lot of the identity markers of some personal commitments of I am fill in the blank, but it's going to be less likely I am a part of XYZ institution. I'm curious what that also has looked like for your congregation because some of the things I I noted in going through this is of the importance of this communal sense. And I'm thinking here in the States that's something that's difficult even in our church context we have committed folks that have been attending the church that I'm on staff with for that Zach and I are at for years, but will not have ever become members.

SPEAKER_03 43:18

And Ray, is part of this sorry to interject real quick, I mean your main ministry is with folks in that kind of 20 to 30s range.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

We're most transient.

SPEAKER_03 43:28

Yes exactly so you've seen this pronounced in in the men and women that you're you're ministering to I I think it's been interesting here and and and part of this will be contextual.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

So you know you have certain Southern Baptist congregations just for instance because I have I have friends serving in that milieu where you'll have lots of people signed up as members who aren't actually at all involved. I mean you'll have these extraordinary numbers of you know 30,000 members but you you know you see 2,000 on a Sunday or something you think what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 43:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Our situation was the inverse of that, that people were very slow historically to become members in our context, but might have been coming to the church for 30 years, which resonates a bit with what Ray was saying. What's interesting is I'm finding among young adults in our context that if they're here and they're with us, they they they want the full experience. So you know, a cultural I'm I'm gonna show up at church just because it's the thing that's done or what my parents wanted me to do. That's basically dead. And so if a university student comes to church, they're like, I'm serious about this. And I'm I'm serious about the whole package, and I want to know how the whole thing fits together. I want to understand where governance and accountability is, I want to understand this, that, and the other. I want to know about your theology. And yeah, if you have a membership process, I'm gonna come to the class. Much more likely. Whereas some of the um, you know, middle-aged folk in our church who have been here for 30 years and haven't become members are kind of like, well, you know, I don't know. I like the church and I feel really at home here, but I've never really felt the need to whatever. And and I'm actually finding the young adults are a bit more interested in following through every aspect of the the community life and the system because because they're they're here, they really mean business if they're here.

SPEAKER_03 45:15

I don't know. No, that's very interesting. Yeah, in the interest of time, I you you know, I wish we had times, like I wanted to talk to you about what are specifically some of those kind of biblical convictions and that biblical theological story that you're talking about that would compel us to emphasize this. Uh, but I'm gonna tease that and just say folks will have to get the book to read into some of those details. Just as a final question, because I think this for many folks, many pastors listening to this conversation will be the thing on their mind. We're still in this kind of post-COVID moment. And how would you encourage pastors who are noticing or finding or still seeing this kind of reticence for some folks in their circles? And it seems like in your context, there's been on the other side of COVID a lot of buy-in. But, you know, in this event that I'm at this week with pastors, just yesterday at dinner, we were having a conversation. One pastor's like, Yeah, we cut off our live stream two and a half years ago and it was the best thing we ever did. Another pastor's like, no, we're keeping it going, and someone else in the middle is like, I wish we could cut it off, but I don't think we could. Uh so pastors who are trying to, because I think a lot of people see this, like we intuitively understand getting people back in the physical space is important. Um, but there's just a lot of social generational, we were just talking about, not to mention political dynamics to that. Um, what encouragement would you offer pastors that are kind of navigating those questions in the in this season?

SPEAKER_00 46:47

Yeah, yeah, it's very tricky. And we wondered about cutting off the stream as well. I'll just say that. Um and we we didn't because you know some elderly people in shut-ins begged us not to. They said, hold, hold on, hold on. This is the this is just an utter joy for me to have this, and what a blessing it is that it's it is as it is. You got the full service, it's good quality, I can see, I can hear, you know, the music of the whole thing. And and and we realized, oh, and this would be, you know, in order to sort of chasten people who aren't coming back who should, we could really, you know, um do a disservice to others. But I think what I uh as we grappled with that, what I what I thought was, okay, well, let's the people who are there who are not yet coming back and who should come back, well, they're at least listening. Let's disciple them through the stream to come back. You know, let's use the the opportunity we have with them to give the encouragement from the Word of God to prioritize church. So we did that, and I did more teaching on these themes on the stream, you know, in the early days um post you know, post-shutdown, I would say. Um, but there is another aspect to this, and you are reaching people on the stream who aren't yet going to come to church because they're maybe exploring the faith. Um, and okay, I'd rather they come in the building, but if this is my point first point of contact, I'm pleased to have a first point of contact. There are other people who are not there because there's been some horrific church hurt, and they've basically given up on going to church, but they're still spiritually hungry. And this is as far as we're gonna get with them this week or next week, or this month, or next month, but we might build up some trust again through the ministry of the word at a distance, and it might be a stepping stone back to church. And I think we want to go gently with people in in that and use the opportunities we have while articulating to them and for ourselves that this is this is not a full picture of church and this is not the ideal. And and we rejoice in the fact that the Lord uses the ministry of his word in all kinds of different ways, um, imperfect ways, nonetheless to do powerful work in people's hearts and lives. And and we just rejoice, you know, we rejoice in that and trust the Lord to be at work with it while discipling our people and casting a vision for what church is according to scripture. That's what we've sought to do. All right.

SPEAKER_03 49:17

Well, Jonathan Griffiths, thank you so much for joining us and for this uh really wonderful, fascinating conversation. And I'll uh end by noting the title of the book again, Gathered for Good. Uh, that's with BH, and folks can uh check that out wherever books are sold. And I will I will note just because I don't think it came out explicitly in the conversation, this is a very accessible book. Um, it is meant to be um accessible to lay people and for and to pastors as well, uh, as I would imagine. So um certainly uh not an overly dense or academic work and um accessible to folks in group studies and pastoral staffs and all the rest of it. So uh that's uh my my pitch uh to listeners to to check this out. And uh thank you again, Jonathan, for the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

Thank you, Zach and Ray. Great to meet you both, great to be with you today.

SPEAKER_03 50:12

Thanks for listening to this episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you appreciated this episode, can I ask you to consider sharing it online with others, rating the show on Apple Podcasts, or even leaving a review? It means a lot to us and it helps others hear about the show. The CPT Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about the CPT by visiting us at pastortheologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook or follow us on Twitter. Today's episode was co hosted by Ray Paul. Our podcast producer is Seth Porch. Our editor is Trenton Jones, our music was composed by Andrew Gerliker. I'm Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.