The Pastor Theologians Podcast
A theology podcast for the church. The pastor theologians podcast consists of conversations and teaching resources at the intersection of theological scholarship and life and ministry in the local church. The vision for this show is to help equip pastors to be theologians for today’s complex world.
The Pastor Theologians Podcast
Speaking God, Listening Church | Kimlyn Bender (Preaching and the Pastor Theologian Episode 1)
Listen now to Episode 1 of our new miniseries, "Preaching and the Pastor Theologian." Joel Lawrence is joined by guest cohost, CPT Fellow Matthew Kim, for a conversation with Kimlyn Bender.
Through the power of the Holy Spirit, Christ is present in our midst. And it's a huge temptation of pastors to think that preaching is they are going to span a 2,000-year divide between a congregation in the present and Christ in the past, as if Christ was a historical object of reflection. Christ is present and he speaks to his church.
SPEAKER_01:Hello everyone, and welcome to the Center for Pastor Theologians podcast. We're actually doing something a little bit different. This is episode one in a new series that we're doing called Preaching and the Pastor Theologian. I'm Joel Lawrence. I'm the president of the CPT. And I'll be co-hosting this podcast with Matt Kim, who is one of our fellows and is with me here. And let me invite Matt to introduce himself to the audience.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks, Joel. It's great to be with you. And I'm blessed to be one of the fellows of St. John Fellowship, and it's a wonderful uh opportunity to fellowship with uh fellow pastor theologians. So um my background is I used to be a pastor uh for 10 years, uh serving as a youth pastor, college pastor, and senior pastor, uh, most recently in Denver, Colorado. I joined the faculty at Gordon Conwell Seminary for 10 years uh teaching preaching and ministry. And for the last two and a half years, I've been at Truitt Seminary teaching preaching and pastoral leadership, and just recently started directing the PhD and preaching program here.
SPEAKER_01:It's great to have you, one, as a fellow of the CPT, two, as a friend. I'm very grateful for you, and three, now to be co-hosting this as we were kind of laying out our vision for this series. You immediately came to mind as somebody that we would love to have as a part of it, given your vast experience on um both in the in the church, uh in the classroom, thinking about preaching, many books that you've written. So we're looking forward to tapping into all that as we go through this series. But let me just give a second to frame it for for folks, and then Matt, I'll ask you to talk about your heart around this. So so this is a, as I said, this is a 10-episode series. It's the first time we've done something like this as the CPT. Uh, this is part of uh an initiative that we are conducting called the Compelling Preaching Initiative. It is funded by the Lilly Endowment. And what we're doing at the CPT is we're taking our fellows through a three-year study cycle on word, spirit, and church with the intent of embedding preaching more deeply in a theological vision. So when we when we uh made this grant proposal, kind of the way that we fronted it was with the idea that evangelicalism centers the sermon, but doesn't really have a rich theology of preaching. And for the CPT, we thought, well, why don't we think about that and and reflect on that? And we're not a homiletic society, we're not an exegetical society, we're a pastor theologian community. So let's think about preaching in the pastor theologian and about preaching in the context of theology. So that's that's the framework for what we're doing. And over these next 10 episodes, we're gonna be thinking about a theology of preaching from lots of different angles, lots of different facets. Um, but but Matt, as as uh you are embarking on this with us as we're doing this, what are some of your hopes, thoughts, prayers for how to encourage pastor theologians in our preaching?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, thanks, Joel. That's a great question. I saw somewhere recently that there was a stat that pastors spend approximately 400 hours plus uh a year on sermon preparation, and that's probably on the low end for most preachers. And the question that comes to my mind is why do we do what we do? Uh what is it that's actually happening in that preaching moment? And so for me, I I really have a passion burden for the church, and I think that there's really good preaching, effective preaching happening in churches, but then there might be some preachers who are out there discouraged or wondering why am I doing what I'm doing? Uh, maybe they're not seeing an immediate fruit. Um, and so one of the things that I'm looking forward to in these conversations with pastor theologians who we bring on to the program is to just pick their brain about what is exciting about preaching in in today's world? What is uh some of what are some of the things that are hard today? Thinking about theology and preaching. Um is there a connection between theology and ecclesiology? How do we build up the congregation spiritually through the proclamation of God's word? And so there's just a lot of questions. Uh, I hope that this series will bring some um new fodder to think about, but also to just encourage pastors that uh the the weekly grind sometimes of preaching is not in vain, and that God is using you powerfully through the preach word.
SPEAKER_01:Amen. And I and I and I think a theological structure and a theological vision can really help encourage pastors in this. Because sometimes I don't know about you, but certainly there are times I've I've preached and it uh didn't feel like God was there. It didn't it didn't feel like the spirit was moving, and yet we can have a confidence that however it feels to us, that if we're faithfully proclaiming the word of God, God is living and active and is at work. And and I think so there's there's kind of that piece of the preacher side. And then for me, one of the other sides that has really emerged is the congregational side of preaching, which I don't think we spend as much time thinking about. And in this first episode that folks are about to listen to, our conversation with Kim Lynn Bender, titled it Preaching God Listening Church. And this kind of came to me when I was actually doing some research for the grant proposal. I went out and I interviewed a number of congregations, and I would ask them what they thought is going on during preaching. And they didn't really have good, a good answer to that, but recognized that something is happening. This was at right after the time of COVID. And so churches were kind of reforming. And one of the things people said over and over again was, you know, I was during COVID, I was listening to preachers on my on my uh in a podcast while I was mowing my lawn, and that was fine, but it's different when we're gathered together and it's my pastor preaching. And I think they were tapping into there's something theological happening here, but they didn't really have the the ability to enunciate that. And I part of my heart for this is not just how does this shape pastors, but also how how do we encourage our understanding about what we could call an ecclesiology of preaching, right? Preaching is embedded in the life of the church, and the church is the listening community. So that's that's uh in been in my heart and my mind over the last couple of years. And I hope those are themes we can explore and and and we do in this first uh conversation with Kimlin Bender. I'm gonna go ahead and pause our conversation here now and uh uh let people listen to Kimlin. And then at the end, Matt, you and I will jump back on for just a a short chat about what we took from our conversation with Kimlin. So uh again, welcome everybody to Preaching and the Pastor Theologian. We hope you enjoy uh all of these, all of these episodes that are coming, and and and especially this first one with Kimlin Bender. Kimlin, welcome back to the podcast. Great to have you with us again. Thank you. It's great to be with you again. So, yeah, I I think you've been with us a couple of times, if if is my recollection, uh, and uh we like coming back to the Kimlin Bender well. There's some good things there for us to tap into, especially as we're starting this new podcast series on the pastor theologian and preaching. So, as uh we do come back to you, I would love you just to take a couple minutes to kind of remind our audience about who you are, a little bit about your faith journey, educational journey, pastoral experience, and and what you're doing today.
SPEAKER_03:So I grew up in a uh a Christian home and grew up in uh North Dakota on a farm. And um, I shared about that last time, I think, in a podcast. So I won't belabor that, but that was very formative for me. I I think I'm probably one of the few people that you'll have on your podcast, if not the only one, in which every single uh man in the church I grew up in was a farmer. So that's kind of unique because the problem is unique, yeah. Yeah. Um I went to the University of Jamestown, what then was Jamestown College, um, went to Fuller Seminary, uh, did a PhD in theology at Princeton Seminary, and I've been an interim pastor and I've been a pastor in different places. And if I'm not a pastor, I'm usually teaching adult education. So every Sunday in California, New Jersey, um, places in Pennsylvania, Texas now, uh, I teach adult Sunday school. So this year, for example, I'm teaching through the book of Romans in my Sunday school class. So love the church. Um, as I said, if I'm not if I'm not preaching somewhere on a Sunday, I'm teaching somewhere usually.
SPEAKER_01:And and just remind us your current role at Truitt. Oh, sure.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I'm the Foy Valentine Chair in Christian Theology and Ethics at Truett Seminary of Baylor University. And I I teach um theology there and historical theology and have have done that. This is my, I think, 13th year at Truitt.
SPEAKER_01:So you're you're colleagues with our our co-host uh Matt DeKim here.
SPEAKER_03:I am. In fact, I can be at Matt's door within like one minute from my office. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Very good. Very good. Good. Well, uh as we start, this is the first episode of this series, and and and we've entitled this episode, Preaching God Listening Church. I'm just curious, Kimlin, kind of big picture. How does that title strike you? What kind of things come to mind as you as you hear that title?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's really a striking title. I mean, I haven't seen something like it, and I like it quite a bit. And the reason I think I like it a lot, um, to start, is that it puts the emphasis once again that the true communicator in preaching, the one that we want to hear from, is God. Um I'll probably talk about this again later uh in our podcast. But when people come to church, I think deep down, uh, they don't simply come to hear great orators, as important as and maybe even enjoyable as that might be, but that we come to church to hear a word from God, to hear a word from the Lord. And so I think that's really clear. And the idea that God is is is the speaking God and we are the listening church. When I saw the title, it made me, it reminded me of a telescope. Um, a telescope, if you think of the the front end and the back end when it's all folded up, is quite close together. So there's the speaking God and there's the hearing church. But if you unpack, if you pull that telescope apart, there's of course other components to it. There's the relationship of this God as Father, Son, Holy Spirit, how that God communicates in a triune way to us. There's the relationship of God to the pastor, there's the relationship of God to the congregation, there's the relationship of the pastor to the congregation. So it's kind of like if you pull a telescope apart, there are all these different pieces, but the title kind of pushes them together, which is good, and says at its heart, the relationship is really between God and his people. And another thing I thought really interesting about that is it reminds us that the primary relationship in preaching is not between a pastor and a congregation. The primary relationship is between God and a congregation, of which the pastor is one member. And so the most important line is not the line between the pastor and the congregation. We talk about that a lot, and it is important, but the primary line is between the creator and the creature. It's between a holy God and his redeemed people. So I like that as well, that it really frames right off the bat, it frames it theologically.
SPEAKER_01:I'm gonna let Matt jump in and hear and ask you a question here in just a second. But I so what you just said kind of reminds me of a this kind of image that has come into my mind as we've been walking through the word and spirit and moving to church part with the CPT fellows are working through. I think oftentimes what we have in our mind is that me and God are on this side of the pulpit as the preacher, and the congregation is on the other side of the pulpit. And like we're the communicators and they're the receivers. And I think this kind of I like how you've talked about that collapsing and kind of making the line between God and the congregation. And the pastor certainly plays a unique role as a vessel, but but I think it would, I just wonder what it'd be what would happen if we imagined ourselves more on the other side of the pulpit than we do on the preaching side of the pulpit, if that makes any sense.
SPEAKER_03:That's exactly right. And and without being polemical in any way, um what you know, uh uh when when Bart wrote on these things in 1924, he reversed the order of the Catholic way of thinking of this, which is the teaching church and the listening or hearing church. So the teaching church is the magisterium and then the hearing church, and Bart reversed that and said, before the church can teach in any way with any authority, it has to be a listening church that includes the pastor, that includes any, you know, if you're in a polity of bishops or anything, the church has to be a listening church. And I think you're exactly right that the the pastor, I kind of sometimes think of the pastor as the first listener, in the sense that, not first in the sense of privilege or in the sense of a particular kind of special authority, but in that the the pastor is giving voice to what is heard in scripture to the congregation and is articulating a common faith, not just the pastor's own, but articulating a common faith for the church. So the pastor, in a sense, stands between God and the congregation in one sense, in that it's the pastor speaking and not every single person in the church during the sermon. But there is a sense in which what the pastor is speaking is something that that person has first heard and is now articulating not only to the church, but for the church, and even in a sense, on behalf of the church. Because ideally, this is not just the creativity of a pastor. This this is really something that the pastor has received by attending to the word of God.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's good.
SPEAKER_02:That's really helpful, Kimlin. Thank you so much for the image of the telescope. I think that's a really helpful uh way to understand this. Uh, tell us about your theological understanding of how does God fit into the preaching moment? What is God doing? What is God saying? How does God act? We're we're really focusing on that first part of the preaching God listening church. What are your thoughts on how God plays a role into the sermon? Yeah, that's a really great question.
SPEAKER_03:So one way to think about it is, of course, to think what is God doing in a sermon? What is God, how is God acting in a sermon? What is God doing in a sermon? And in that we could talk about God through the Spirit, you know, convicting and comforting and consoling and all of these different things. But I would want to take a step back and say the first question I think I would want to ask is how does preaching itself fit within God's communication to the world? That is dogmatic theologians, systematic theologians will sometimes talk about the economy of God. That's not a term that maybe some of the listeners will know. But what I mean by that simply is how does God enter into the world? How does it fit into God's actions within the world, what we call the economy? And to begin, I think I would want to say that before any sermon is preached, and even before there's a word on a page of Scripture, there is a word. So there is an eternal word of God, as John says. And that word took on flesh and came and lived among us. And so, what I would want to look at first is how does God enter into the world in God's communication? Uh, and how has the word of God taken on flesh and entered into our world? And in doing that, that was prepared for by God's work and uh relationship to Israel. And so we can think of the Old Testament as attesting to Christ. That sounds radical to us. Some people sometimes push back against that, but I always say that's exactly what Jesus said about himself, not only in the Gospel of John, but also at the end of Luke, where he tells his disciples and takes them through, as Luke says, Moses and the prophets and the writings that they attested to him. And so the Old Testament is looking towards Christ. And the New Testament, Jesus chooses the disciples and apostles to be his witnesses. And skimming over a very complex history of how scripture is composed and collected and canonized, that is the written word. Scripture is that attestation to Christ. And then Scripture moves to its proclamation naturally. That is to say, the early church itself was driven back into Israel's scriptures in view of Christ's coming. That's true in the book of Acts. But it can it's also true that in the book of Acts you see the beginning of what I would call Christian proclamation in its fullness. And by that I mean not simply teaching moral lessons or teaching the promises of what God hopes for Israel, but the fulfillment of what has come in Christ, that Christ has been crucified, risen, and exalted at the right hand of God. This, of course, Peter's sermon in Acts 2. You can find this in Acts 4. This is what God has done in Christ. And that calls not just to drive us back into the written word, but calls us to proclaim it. So I would want to say that when we think about what God's doing in preaching, God is proclaiming in the contemporary moment his self-announcement once again of what he has done in Christ through the power of the Spirit in raising Christ for the dead to call us to faith and obedience. So preaching intrinsically, intrinsically calls for decision. It intrinsically calls for, it asks that question that Jesus asked his own disciples, who do you say that I am? And it intrinsically does that. It gives us a forced option in the language of William James the philosopher. It's inescapable. To hear the gospel proclaim forces us to either accept it or reject it. I think that's what I would want to think, what's happening in a sermon. God is taking up once again the words of Scripture, but now the words of the proclaimer of Scripture, of what has been heard in Scripture in the moment, to be present to us again through His Word, through the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_01:I think this emphasis on you know thinking about the preaching God. I think that's something that theologically probably many preachers agree with, but maybe don't spend a lot of time really deeply reflecting on God is the primary agent in this. So we end up putting maybe too much pressure, too much upon ourselves. There could be some freedom of releasing this to God being the primary agent. And yet there is a human agency involved with this. And that reminded me of something, Kim Lynn, when when you came and you were a consultant with us for a couple of our fellowship groups, you asked our fellows why, if if we believe the Bible is the word of God, should why would why do we preach? Why don't we just read the Bible out loud? Do we believe the believe the word of God is sufficient? Why don't we just read the Bible rather than preach? So how how do you answer that question of why we preach rather than just read the Bible as the Word of God?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think it comes back to how we think about what God has appointed in this flow of communication of Himself to us. So, first of all, once again, as I said, God really enters into history in the Word. The Word takes on flesh and dwells among us. And the we could ask, well, if if that word has come, why do we need the written word? Well, the written word testifies to that word. It's God's appointed way to reveal himself to us in the Old Testament and the New and attest to what he does in Jesus Christ. And that doesn't denigrate Scripture, but it actually exalts it. It says that Scripture is this God-appointed way. This is how we know Christ. This is how we know, this is how Christ comes to us in the present. As one person said once, for those of us who are not prophets and apostles, scripture is the word of Christ for us today. I mean, I I can't walk with Jesus along, you know, like Waco here in Waco, as Peter did in that same way. Christ truly is ascended and exalted, and he promises his spirit to continue to be present to us through the spirit. And the way that he is present is through this word, Scripture. Well, along with that, God didn't just tell Peter and the apostles to read passages from the Old Testament. When you get to Acts, Peter doesn't stand up at Pentecost and say, now I'm just going to read the Old Testament. Of course, he quotes it. Of course, it has a large role to play. But it's that immediate moment of God speaking into the present of the people there. And preaching at its best is this expectation, not only that God has spoken 2,000 years ago in the life of Christ in our world, and not only that God has spoken to Peter and to Paul in writing scripture, but that God continues to speak through Christ, through Scripture, now through the preaching of the Word of God. And so the Word of God proclaimed in that sense brings Christ into the present for us. Or perhaps a better way to put it is to say that Christ brings Himself through the power of the Spirit into the present for us. I wrote a book once, and I put every quote at the beginning is really important to me. I think there's a few quotes by Luther, but there's one by Kierkegaard, and Kierkegaard says there that the idea of a historical Christianity is nonsense. Now, I I would guess that if you stop there, most people would say, oh my goodness, this is why Kierkegaard is crazy. But this is what he means. What does he mean by historical? The idea that we think that Christ is 2,000 years in the past. Kierkegaard then goes on to say, in every generation, true Christians are contemporaneous with Christ. That is, Christ is present to us. So then the question becomes, and whether Kierkegaard had a pneumatology strong enough to make this work, but for us, through the power of the Holy Spirit, Christ is present in our midst. And it's a huge temptation of pastors to think that preaching is they are going to span a 2,000-year divide between a congregation in the present and Christ in the past, as if Christ was a historical object of reflection. Christ is present where two or three are gathered through the power of the Spirit, and He speaks and anoints. He speaks to his church. And I think Kierkegaard is dead on on that because preaching can become really teaching of historical truths.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And I can get that in a university. There are really brilliant people that don't even have a very high view of Jesus that can do quite a good job about contextualizing Jesus in the Hellenistic, Roman, and Jewish world. But that's different than preaching. Preaching is the expectation that God continues to speak to call people to faith and obedience, calls them to repentance. That is different. And that is something preaching does and is promised in preaching and shown in scripture and preaching in some in a way that nothing else is. Whether it's Peter in the early chapters of Acts or in chapter 8, when Philip preaches, even Simon the magician believes through this proclamation that Philip gives. So I think that one of the greatest tragedies, and I was going to end with this, I'll have to think about some more things to say at the end. But I'm guessing you'll talk about, you know, how we think about these things. One of the tragedies, I think, is that we have lost the sense that Christ is exalted, raised, and and indeed present to the congregation, rather than an object of someone who walked around 2,000 years ago, and we just simply give historical lessons about.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's very helpful, Kimlin. And going back to what you said earlier about uh Jesus being the word of God and how Jesus is present even in the proclamation moment now. Uh that's a very good reminder for all of us as preachers. Uh you you brought up Kierkegaard a little bit ago. Uh here's another quote from uh Bullinger uh from the second Helvetic Confession. He says, uh the word of God, uh preaching of the Word of God is the Word of God. The preaching of the Word of God is the Word of God. And what do you what do you think he meant by this? And and how does that shape our theology of preaching?
SPEAKER_03:Well, it obviously comes from a very high view of preaching, right? I mean, to say a statement that baldly, uh, that's quite an amazing statement. Luther would have said that. Um, but I think uh for Bullinger to say it and for the Reformed to say it, and to say it that boldly is an amazing statement of identity, if I can put it that way. So let me, with some of my reformed convictions as well, come to play here. So if from the Lutheran side, I think Luther says that when we get into the pulpit, we should have no compunction at all, uh, no reservation at all to say, thus saith the Lord. And if we can't say that, Luther says, then what are we doing there? I mean, what really? Right? What if if God's not going to be speaking, then is this these are just my interesting ideas about the Bible.
SPEAKER_01:Our thoughts, our tips on life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So this made some people in the reform camp very, very nervous, as you would guess. Um, and I think probably most Christians today would be very nervous with that, particularly in view of the way sometimes preachers can be very authoritarian. So I do think it's important to say that there is an indirectness here. God speaks through preaching, but God takes up, as Paul says, very earthen vessels to do this. So there's a kind of indirect identity of God's word with our words. Um, I can't simply equate every one of my words as God's words such that I could never be critiqued as a preacher. We would want to say that scripture as canon would stand over us, as would Christ in the gospel, such that our preaching itself could be tested, right? I mean, I think if we're honest, we wouldn't want to say that every single thing said in every sermon in all of human history should simply be simplistically embraced as God's word for us today. But on the other hand, Luther has a strong point, which is that when Peter stands up at Pentecost and proclaims to the people, they they hear that as God's address to them. We know that because they say with all sincerity, what should we do? And Peter responds to them, repent, you know, uh, and and and and believe and so forth. So I think it's it's this amazing kind of this mystery that has to be held together. That when we step into the pulpit, we should do it with the utmost confidence that God Himself has appointed this for his own communication, and with the humility to know that we ourselves are unworthy stewards, and we are vessels made of clay. And I think if we lose either one of those, we either lose the confidence to proclaim the gospel, or we we end up with a kind of personal triumphalism and authoritarianism, which is probably equally as frightening. They're both um going off the rails. So I think Bullinger is right. I think the spoken word of God based upon scripture, which attests to Christ, is the word of God, and we go to church to hear God speak to us. But I don't think a pastor can ever claim this for themselves. So last thing I'll say, I might. Have shared this before on a different podcast, maybe not. I think back to Billy Graham long ago, had a statement where he said that pastors will have the opportunity to have a lot of money pass through their fingers as long as none of it sticks. And what he meant by that is that there's a particular kind of temptation, and we've seen this, sadly, of a misuse of funding by people in ministry. Okay? That's true. Uh that's happened. But I think of that in terms of authority. There's an authority to preaching that flows through the preaching task, but it can never be claimed by the preacher as a person. I know that sounds weird, but it's the authority of the preacher works insofar as the preacher is appointed by God to bring this word, but it's the word that flows through the preacher that calls people to faith and obedience. It's not because of the preacher that they're called to faith and obedience. So there's a kind of conduit nature to being a pastor, I think, and preacher.
SPEAKER_01:And I I think that that leads us well now to to think about the listening church, because that that word is going somewhere, right? That there that that's a conduit to to the community. And and I'm I would love to hear your thoughts kind of Kimlin. You you you you think a lot about the church. Uh you you've you've pastored the churches, you've written books about the churches we we talked about before we pressed record. You're you're in you're writing an a book about the church right now. Um in terms of the the church, the congregation as a theological entity in this kind of vision of preaching, which is God preaching God, listening church, um, how might we think more theologically about the listening task of the congregation, about the nature of the congregation that is able to hear the word of God?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I think going back to what one thing I said earlier, or or you said it, and this was so helpful, to have the pastor, in a sense, move out from behind the pulpit and sit in the pew, even if not physically, but that's of of seeing yourself as one of the congregation and as part of the hearing church before one is the the proclaiming, you know, the proclaimer or the teaching church. Um I think that that is one thing that that has to happen, which is to say that again, when pastors think of themselves as intelligent dispensaries of knowledge, uh they have, I think, lost the plot. I don't know if we still use that phrase, but I think people will know what that resonates, yeah. They've they've lost the plot.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And so the from the congregation side, it's the opposite. Um, if the pastor sees themselves as the possessors of something that they distribute almost like medicine to the congregation, uh, the congregation can see themselves as entirely passive. And we all know the difference between active and passive listening. I'm trying to be a very active listener right now to your questions. Um and so we know there's a difference. But I would even push it further, and that is to say that congregants every Sunday morning, and I include myself, by the way, when I'm not preaching, which is a lot of times now uh that I'm back in a teaching role. I get up on Sunday morning and I'm praying for my pastor, but not just for that, but to receive the word of God that God will bring to us today. So there should already be a preparation on the part of a congregation throughout the week and certainly on Sunday morning to come to worship and to hear God speak to us. That's not only praying for the pastor, that's true, but it's really praying again. God is the primary speaker, praying that God might speak once again, and then coming with a sense of expectation and hope that God will speak again because God is faithful. So there's a whole disposition as a congregation to come, and that is kind of like the people surrounding the mountain of Sinai, that the thunder and lightning will once again appear. It's terrifying, but that God will appear and speak, and that there will be a holy moment and moments in which God is present to his people and addresses us. And I think addresses us both corporately but also individually. I mean, one of the miracles of God speaking is that the the reality of the truth that is communicated in a sermon always exceeds the expectations or even intentions of the pastor, such that God uses those messages to reach different congregants in different ways. So I think the listening church has to be an active church, uh, it has to be a praying church, it has to be an expectant church, and it has to be a church that recognizes that the word that's proclaimed isn't meant to remain within the walls of the church building, but is to equip us, anoint us, um, and inspire us uh to go out into the world with with that word.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks, Kimlin. That's that's a really helpful uh reminder. As you've sat in both seats as a preacher and as a listener, um let's focus. You you gave us some really good practical tips there. Let's focus a little bit on imagination. So you're the pastor of a church or you're you're encouraging uh preachers. What are some of the shepherding functions in terms of the pastor? How does the pastor help their congregation become in essence effective listeners? Is there a role in imagination that happens in the preacher to be able to encourage or shepherd the flock to nurture the sense of uh you mentioned the word expectancy earlier. How does the preacher help shape the congregation that way in terms of developing an imagination for listening?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's an interesting way to put that question. So I want to bracket imagination for a second. I'm gonna come back to that. I think there's there's a number of things that we can do concretely as pastors to help people see themselves with the pastor as active and expectant listeners of the Word of God. And and one of them is I think pastors have to model a sense of expectancy themselves. If pastors don't expect God to speak to them in their study and in their congregations and in their meetings with other people, then it would be very hard for congregants to expect God to speak to them if their own pastor doesn't seem to live with this sense of expectancy. So I do think pastors have to model that, first and foremost. Um, I think another way that it has to be modeled very concretely is in the prayer of invocation before the sermon. Now, some traditions have this, and it's very easy for them to do it. It's in the liturgy and it kind of flows, but it wouldn't be bad, even in those traditions that are, we might say, more liturgical in that sense, to from time to time for pastors to give some sense of instruction of what's happening or why we give a prayer of invocation. I mean, one reason I love theology, to be honest, I'm kind of breaking out here a little bit. I'll make this very brief. I love theology because what it basically just does is ask, why do we do what we do? I mean, at the end of the day, like we can talk about how we preach, and I think that's super important. So I'm not saying that. I mean, we need preaching faculties, but but this is what is what's what's actually going on in preaching? And that's really a theological question.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And the same thing with invocation. Why do we give a prayer of invocation? We give a prayer of invocation because God is free to speak or not speak, but God is faithful and we can trust him and we invoke him once again. That God will show up and be present to us. And that itself is expectation, the prayer of invocation. And and another thing, a little thing that can be done in prayers of invocation, is to use the first person plural. We. We are hoping to hear. Not I'm giving this or I hope you all hear this, but when we're praying to God that we all, pastor and congregation, together will hear God's word uh um coming through this sermon. So that's another thing I think that could be done. And I've spoken a little bit about this, you know, just referenced it. I think that outside of the sermon, churches in their catechetical instruction or their discipleship uh instruction or adult education, whatever you call it in your tradition, I think there has to be a place in which we help people understand what's going on in our worship. You know, evangelicals are pretty good about talking about prayer. Like, okay, when you pray, you have to think about glory, giving glory to God and praise uh and adoration, you have to think about, you know, intercession for others, you have to think about confession, you have to think about thanksgiving, you have to think about supplication or or you know, petition, whatever we want to call that. That's all very good. But how much time do we give in our instruction in churches to help people understand what a sermon is or why we do it? I'm amazed how few people can answer that question if I just ask them that.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, that's one reason, Joel, coming back to the question I asked in Chicago of the group is why don't we just get up, read the Bible, and sit down? And then we could go, you know, be home for all the games early and have an early lunch. I mean, why why do we preach at all? And so I think trying to think, helping congregants understand not just like how to pray, which is very important, or why we sing and use music in worship, but what is a sermon and why has it been so central to Protestant worship since you know the Reformation and even before? So that that's another thing I think that we could do to kind of help. Um, the last thing coming on imagination, I want to say, I struggle with the word imagination, and I know that's bad, but let me just say why. Um maybe this is where Kierkegaard also has really influenced me in his essay, which everyone should read, on the difference between a genius and an apostle. Um, a genius is someone who, with their imagination and their unique gifts and creativity, come up with something unique. And Kierkegaard says that's not what an apostle is. An apostle is someone who has received a commission. They've received a message. So there's a difference between a creative genius who simply comes up with something on their own out of their own mind and creates something through their imagination, and a commission, someone who's commissioned with a message that they didn't make up or even use their imagination on that they've simply received. I think this is what Bonhoeffer meant when he talked about the difference between a preaching is a commissioned message, not a spontaneous message. And I think I think there's a very close tie there to Kierkegaard on this. Now, I do think, however, that imagination is important in preaching and in helping people understand preaching. So it just has to stand under the quality, the qualifications I gave. Um, I'm very worried that imagination is taking on too big of a quality because, for one thing, many pastors are not extraordinarily creative. That doesn't mean you can't be a good preacher. You don't have to be an incredible creative genius to be a good preacher because the gospel is something that's given to us. And yes, we should bring every tool in our toolbook box and every skill we have to be um creative preachers as that as we can. But the reality is that some of us will never have the creative, imaginative gifts that some others will have. But we are called to preach the gospel. Yeah. And so I really want to be careful about thinking of imagination as the primary thing of preaching, either on the pastor's side or on the hearing side. Imagination has a place, but it's amazing how little in scripture it has a place. Like you don't find many verses that say you need to be more imaginative. You have to be more faithful. And I think the imagination comes as we steep ourselves in scripture. God begins to bring out the richness of the Old and New Testament and the intertextual connections between them. And those things, along with our attention, simply our attention in the world, can lead to, I think, imaginative ways of talking about it. Last thing I'll say, I mean, C. S. Lewis says in mere Christianity that he just wants to give a very boring account of Christianity. He doesn't want to be very creative. And yet at the end, it's one of the most creative, interesting, longstanding accounts that we have. So I think if pastors are faithful, uh imagine it, imagination, both on their side and on the congregation, can come along. But if we try to start with imagination and creativity, I think that we sometimes can get out of proportion on those things.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think that's really helpful. As you've you pointed out, imagination is getting a lot of play these days, right? Kind of Charles Taylor and social imaginary, and then kind of how that's been spinning out. And I and I I agree the danger is when we think imagination, we think of human capacity. And I think if we can differ differentiate between that and like I I think about faith as a form of imagination, not not something that is fake, but gives us sight that we can't see with our eyes. Uh, but I think it's important that we make those kinds of distinctions because you're right. I think we could we could leave it as you need to be more imaginative in your human capacities as a preacher, which then takes us away from the commissioned preaching and the apostolic preaching. So I think that's really helpful. All right, we need to uh start drawing the conversation to a close here. So I'm gonna do a couple of rapid fire questions real quick. Actually, just two at one, and then you can take it however way you want. One is kind of more generally, your opportunity now to get on your Kimlin Bender soapbox. Um what theological barriers do you see out there that are keeping the evangelical church from having a more deeply theologically formed vision of preaching? So that's one. And then two, just what final words of encouragement would you give to preachers in the church as we seek and seek to deepen our theological vision of preaching?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Um, so I'm gonna try and make these brief. I mean, there's a lot I could say. I could talk about, I think, a lack of understanding of kind of of the economy of God, of that movement I described, um that loses the sense of God moving from his word, entering into history, scripture, preaching, and how these are all deeply entwined. Um, I could talk about, you know, I think on the other side of that is kind of a lack of a really rich Trinitarian understanding of God's action. But, you know, what I would say, instead of focusing so much on, you know, theology and or even knowledge, I think the tragedy is that we expect so too little of God. I think we come to church and we don't have high expectations, and I think I think that deeply saddens God. I shouldn't speak for God, but I I'm basing that on the Old Testament. Okay, I'm not just saying that. Yeah, I mean, I think God has so much for us, and I think we come with so little expectation. And there's so much in scripture that that points to the fact that when people simply even give their very little to God, that he rewards it in such amazing ways. And I think that's why prayer not only prayers of invocation, but prayers before the service and entering into into worship with a sense that God has promised to be present to his people. So that leads also to those words of encouragement. So much I think of what I write has been shaped by some very simple ideas, but one of them is the freedom and faithfulness of God.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:The freedom of God protects against the idea of a kind of possessiveness, triumphalism, a kind of arrogance, that we are dispensers and possessors of God's truth. And whenever Israel in the Old Testament starts to think that way, um, as if the Ark of the Covenant is a magic box that we can take to battle, or we've got the temple, and so God has to be here, God reminds them that he doesn't have to, he's free. But the but the other side of that is that even in the midst of the tragedies, God is still faithful to his promises in the end. So despite our lack of expectation, God will surprise us because he is faithful, he will do a new thing. And when we go to church, I think sometimes we look around at ourselves and each other and we ask the question, can these can these bones live again? And God looks at us and says, What do you think? And we simply say, Well, you you know. And then God speaks. And all these things, scattered things, begin to come together once again to be brought together into the body of Christ. The the foot, the hands, the arms, the legs, the torso, all these things all under the head, which is Christ. And now breathing the Spirit, enlivened by the Spirit, the church is constituted again. That's what I would say. It's not a theological idea, but it's a disposition of humility and confidence, of expectation and hope that God is faithful, that promised, and he will speak again.
SPEAKER_01:Amen. Amen. Uh Kimlin, thanks so much for uh joining us, uh, helping us really set the framework for where we're going with this podcast series. Uh I'm just been encouraged at the conversation and trust that uh what we've talked about today will be encouraging to those who have heard and and uh grateful for you and and your presence with us.
SPEAKER_03:Well, thank you. It was great to be on. I hope God really uses the series to do all the things that we we hope he will with it. Thanks for doing it. You bet.
SPEAKER_01:You bet. Thanks, Kiman. Well, I really enjoyed that conversation with Kimblin. There's a lot of richness to uh what we've talked about, just starting to scratch the surface, I think, of themes that we'll be exploring as we go forward. But Matt, in your mind, what were some of the things that that jumped out to you in that conversation?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think there was so much richness that Kimlin provided our listeners to think about and to practice. Uh, one of the things that really stood out to me is early on in the conversation, just his understanding of the God who proclaims God is a preacher, uh, and that we are not the primary actors, even though we want to be or think we are. So uh God is the one who is speaking, God is the one who moves and transforms. Uh so that was one takeaway for me that really stood out. Another thing that later on in the conversation, when he was really focusing on how Jesus is present in the preaching moment, and sometimes we forget that. And we we think that we have to put on a show or be spectacular in our words, but it's really Jesus uh being present among the body of Christ and uh Jesus being present uh in the in the preach word. So those were good reminders for me. What about for you, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I I boy, I agree with both of those things uh very much. And I think, again, kind of one of the reasons we're doing this series is I think theologically, most of our listeners, I'm sure, would agree that that God is present in our preaching. Um, I just don't know how much we we we say we believe that, how really operative is that in our preaching and and what would change if we really had that as a a functional vision of what we're doing. So I I really appreciated that. And then I just thought what he said at the end, we expect too little of God. It again, it taps into this. Um, and after we hit stop on the recording, I I said there's so much there because I think so much of what I see, and I've seen this in my own preaching, I've seen this in evangelical preaching, is I expect too little of God. And so I put so much on myself. Um, and I think if we can relieve ourselves of some of these burdens, um, you know, there's a the the proper burden that we are called to carry, but but we have me to make sure we're carrying the right burden. And and I think there's so much more that we're were we open to expectations about what God is doing in the preaching event, that we would see him move in in powerful ways. So again, I I think that theme of we expect too little of God might be something that it appears as we go through this through this series. So um great thanks everyone for for joining us uh for this. Uh we've got nine more episodes to go. They're gonna be spectacular. Grateful to have everyone along the way. Thanks, Matt. Really enjoyed being with you. You too, Joel. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider subscribing if you haven't already? You can also help us out by leaving a rating and especially a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. We love hearing from listeners in this way, and it helps others find out about the show. The Pastor Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about the CPT at our website, Pastor Theologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook, YouTube, and follow us on X. This show is produced by Seth Porch and Sophia Luke. The show is recorded and edited in partnership with Glowfire Creative, and editing is done by Seth Freekorn. Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence, Ray Paul, and me, Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.