Who Is Preaching For? | Ahmi Lee (Preaching and the Pastor Theologian Episode 5)

Joel Lawrence and Matt Kim talk with Ahmi Lee about her vision for preaching as participation in God’s “grand drama.” Drawing from her global upbringing, pastoral experience, and theological training, Lee explains how preaching should bridge text-centered and reader-centered approaches by rooting sermons in the sweeping biblical narrative while remaining attentive to the lived experiences of listeners. She argues that preaching is ultimately a doxological act—first for God, then for the church, and still welcoming to those exploring faith. The hosts and Lee discuss the purpose of preaching, the role of the congregation as active listeners, the need for holistic and integrated biblical formation, and how preachers can engage diverse audiences. Lee closes by reflecting on how God is teaching her to trust Him more deeply amid a restless and chaotic world.

Living Church - Awe and Presence

Transcript

Ahmi Lee: 0:01

And the truth is, we experience tension in our lives. We're forgiven, but that doesn't mean our struggles disappear on this side of heaven. And I think acknowledging that complexity, that second layer of adding more complexity and nuance, it helps believers and non-believers feel seen and understood in their struggle.

Joel Lawrence: 0:25

Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Preaching and the Pastor Theologian podcast series. I'm Joel Lawrence, president of the Center for Pastor Theologians. I'm here with my co-host for this series, Matt Kim, Professor of Preaching and Pastoral Leadership at Truitt Seminary. Hello, Matt. Hey, Joel. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. Great to be with you again and excited about this conversation that we have today. On today's episode, we're speaking with Dr. Ami Lee. Dr. Lee is a PhD from Fuller Theological Seminary, preacher, author, consultant for ministries and nonprofits. One of the things we'll talk quite a lot about is some of the framing in her book, Preaching God's Grand Drama, which was 2019 from Baker Academic. In addition to that, she's contributed lectures and sermons and essays to lots of different forums, including, she spoke at our CPT conference a couple years ago, our Power in the Pulpit conference. So she was formerly a professor of preaching at Fuller Seminary and is an active preacher and speaker today worldwide. So the conversation we wanted to have with Ami today is on the question who is preaching for. I think there's been a lively question in recent years in light of the seeker movement, which really often positioned the sermon as an evangelistic method. So the church is a gathering place for those who are seeking, not necessarily for those who believe. I think this emphasis has shaped the form of the church in some pretty significant ways over the past 40 years. I think she does a great job of helping us to understand kind of the shape of preaching and the purpose of preaching. So, Matt, as we we go into this conversation with Ami, I wonder how you've thought as a pastor, how you've thought as a professor about who is preaching for and um how what framework you you bring to thinking about that.

Matt Kim: 2:31

Yeah, thanks, Joel. Ami has done a great job in our conversation as well here in a moment. But I as I think about it, um more and more I'm convinced that preaching is for the preacher. And I see that because you know we we have had other conversations with you know Dan about AI and you know how we we have looked for quick quick solutions. And you know, there are books out there like uh eight-hour sermon, and you know, how do we make the the sermon writing process as short as possible? Yeah, and we've forgotten that the sermon is for the preacher to be transformed herself himself. And you know, I I think we could spend an entire podcast on that later on thinking about how the the preacher become transformed in this process. But I I'm convinced that of course it's for everybody, but more and more I'm convinced that it might be for the preacher because we need to be transformed by the word of God. We need to face the realities and the truths and applications that we're presenting to our listeners. So that that's a little short bit from me that I think it's for the preacher as much as is for everybody else.

Joel Lawrence: 3:40

You really kind of headpicked me on that one. I I I wasn't expecting that. I that's a yeah, that's a really, yeah, it's a really interesting way of framing it up. I I was just with actually just a bit earlier before we recorded with one of our CPT fellows having a conversation, and he was just reflecting on how he's growing, as he grows as a preacher, the more he realizes it's it's for his local congregation in this moment. And not thinking about where's the sermon gonna go and who else might listen to it, but it's and that local congregation then is a lot of different kinds of people, as we'll talk about with Ami. Um, but I, you know, to yeah, your point of it's it's for the preacher as the vessel of the word of God. I I think that's that's a really interesting facet to add uh to this conversation and the conversations we're having throughout this podcast series. So um, so in light of all that, let's let's us stop talking so we can we can hear from Ami and uh we'll be back at the end for a little summary. Ami, it's great to have you on the podcast. Thanks so much for joining us for the conversation.

Ahmi Lee: 4:54

Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here. I look forward to our conversation today.

Joel Lawrence: 4:59

Excellent. Good. So before we dive in, we whenever we do our podcast, we like to get to know the people that we're talking to a little bit. So uh I'd love to invite you just to introduce yourself to our listeners, tell us a bit about your faith journey, educational journey, your uh pastoral life, and what you're doing these days.

Ahmi Lee: 5:17

All right, sure. Um, an important part of my self-identity is that I'm a third culture kid. I was born in South Korea, raised in Japan, where my father was born and grew up. And I was educated and nurtured in a global context of an international school in Japan. So basically, my school was an American school in foreign soil that drew students from over 60 some countries around the world. I grew up in a strong Christian family, but it was actually in my elementary school that I made the decision to truly embrace the faith for myself. Um, that year marked a huge spiritual growth spurt for me. I remember diving into scripture like I couldn't get enough of it, um, going to every uh worship service at my Korean Japanese Methodist church, which there were lots of worship services, and even joining street evangelism downtown every Saturday night. Um it was a really formative time. Um looking back, I realized that season shaped me in more ways than I understood then. It was uh when I first began to really think deeply about the gospel, coming to understand God's unconditional love became the catalyst for um making the faith my own. I had to wrestle with what it meant to follow Christ in an international school setting, surrounded by friends and teachers from all around the world, each bringing their own God's belief systems and cultures. And of course, through street evangelism, I had to grapple with what it meant to proclaim the gospel and why it mattered to someone, say, like that street musician pouring his um heart in a love song, or the high school student rushing past me, caught up in the busyness of life. Um, at the time, I couldn't have imagined where those early experiences would lead me. But now I see that how God that God was really drawing me closer to himself and perhaps also shaping and equipping me for the work I do today. I never set out to become a preacher, but through the encouragement and prayers of my church families and mentors along the way, I eventually pursued an MDiv and a PhD in theology and preaching. And since then, the Lord has allowed me to serve in a range of pastoral roles from children's ministry to youth and young adults, from teaching pastor to director of various ministries. I've also had the joy of training pastors as a professor of preaching at Fuller Theological Seminary and equipping Christian marketplace leaders as a senior leader in a nonprofit. Today, I would say that my work weaves together all these strands. I'm serving the church as a preacher, consultant with ministries, and continuing to contribute as a scholar and speaker. It's certainly not a path that I could have mapped out for myself, but looking back, I really can see that God's hand was with me every step.

Matt Kim: 8:14

Thank you so much for sharing your story, Ami. Um you wrote a book uh a few years ago called Preaching God's Grand Drama. And we'd like for you to just share a little bit about the book. Um, what motivated you to write it? Uh, who were you conversing with, and maybe you can touch on some of the themes that you explore in the book for us.

Ahmi Lee: 8:37

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for that question. I think it's a great place to start. Preaching God's grand drama is really about reimagining the task of preaching through the lens of dramatic theology. As um at its heart, dramatic theology sees the Christian faith not just as a system of doctrines, but as a living, unfolding story, God's story of redeeming creation. The church in the story isn't just as spectator, we're participants. And so preaching in this framework becomes a way of helping people locate themselves within that ongoing drama of God and participate in God's story. I would say what motivated me to write the book was my own ecclesial experience. I grew up in traditions that were very text-centered. Sermons were highly expositional, focused on pulling timeless truth from the text through careful exegesis and historical study. And these sermons often revolved around one big idea, like a singular meaning or theological principle. And they were typically teaching-oriented and deductive in style. Then during my doctoral work, I encountered other traditions and preaching styles that were much more reader-centered, where meaning emerges from the interaction between text and context, and where the congregation's experience plays a more active role in interpretation. I've learned that sermons shaped by this model often use an inductive, evocative style that's more open-ended, imaginative, and invitational. And while over time, what I realized is these weren't just stylistic differences. They reflect deeper epistemological and theological convictions. And what I found is that homilytical literature tends to favor one side over the other, like you almost have to choose a side. But I started thinking, why not bridge the gap between them? Why not draw from the strength of both while being honest about their limitations? So, for example, the text-centered model excels in honoring scripture's authority. The goal is to let the Bible speak in its own voice, which often leads to a theological clarity and a posture of humility, which I think is very important. However, this model can also have some unintended downsides. It may over-emphasize the interpretive role of overlook the interpretive role of the congregation, reduce the rich, you know, literary richness of scripture to abstract doctrinal statements, and sometimes separate application from interpretation. So its strong focus on historical context can also make it harder to see how God is actively at work in the present. So there's an emphasis in the past, but maybe it has a hard time translating into what it means today for the listeners. The reader-centered model offers an important corrective in my mind. It values the lived experience of the congregation and encourages preaching that's relational and grounded in context. It treats the community as a genuine interpretive partner, which opens the door to shared reflection and deeper engagement. Still, this model also comes with its own risks. Without a solid grounding in the text, it can drift into subjectivity, where interpretation is shaped more by personal and communal perspectives than by the biblical passage itself. So this book is really my attempt to bridge the gap between the text-centered and reader-centered models of preaching. I'm proposing a third way, a theodramatic approach that tries to hold on to the strength of both while also being honest about where they fall short. And along the way, I engage with thinkers like Hans Erz von Balthazar, N. T. Wright, Nicholas Lasch, and especially the work of Kevin Van Hooser. Their work helped shape a vision of preaching for me that is not just propositional or experiential, not just individual or communal, and not merely informative, but I would say truly formative. It's a kind of preaching that invites the church to step into its role in God's unfolding story of redemption and to live that role out faithfully.

Joel Lawrence: 13:08

I think this is such a valuable project and appreciate the work, how it kind of I think helps to move us out of some of the categories that perhaps we've gotten stuck into. And it kind of prompts the the next question, which I think is an another way maybe we've gotten stuck a little bit. And it seems to me that we've kind of gotten a little bit stuck in a one way or the other, one way to maybe think about this. So I would just be curious, kind of big picture. That question, who is preaching for? How would you answer that question at a big picture level? How does your thinking on preaching God's drama shape how you think about the question of who preaching is for?

Ahmi Lee: 14:06

Well, if we understand preaching as the proclamation of the gospel, and the gospel is good news of Jesus Christ intended for all people, then the short answer is that preaching is for everyone. Whether someone is churched, unchurched, dechurched, or underchurched, everyone needs to hear that despite our shortcomings, we're all invited into God's redemptive story through Christ. It's a message that addresses the deep need for grace, meaning, and hope in all of our lives. So it's the expansive and inclusive nature of the gospel to me that makes the scope of preaching universal. With that said, while preaching is for everyone, it's also true that its primary audience is the church. Preaching most naturally occurs within the context of corporate worship, and its chief function is to build up the body of Christ. This isn't just an educational or informational activity, but a formative one. The goal of preaching is to equip the congregation, helping believers live more fully into their roles within God's ongoing story of redemption. Worship then becomes the gathering space where the church remembers and rehearses the theodrama. It's where we are reminded of who God is, who we are, and what part we play in God's redemptive work. Preaching plays a huge role in shaping how we see ourselves in that story. But here's the thing: the church doesn't just rehearse that drama for itself, like any good performance. Preaching's aim isn't just to edify those who are already part of the story, it's to invite others. I like to think that the church rehearses the theodrama for two audiences. First, for God, who is the author, director, and protagonist of this divine drama. We preach as an act of worship to glorify and magnify this God. Second, the church rehearses the theodrama for the watching world, people listening in, maybe for the first time, and wondering if there's a place for them in that story, too. So, yeah, I believe preaching is a doxological act. It glorifies God and invites the church to respond in praise. And I believe that by its very nature, preaching extends an invitation to the world to come witness the hope found in Jesus Christ and perhaps join in that praise. Preaching, then, I think, then, um ought to be both deep and accessible. It should minister to those who've walked with Jesus for years, but also resonate with people who are still exploring faith. While the church is the home base for preaching, I'm saying that our sermon shouldn't exclude those who stand on the outside looking in. And for that reason, they should always be clear, compelling, and inviting, the kind of message that draws people toward Christ and not push them away. So if I had to sum it up, I would say I believe preaching is meant to edify believers, glorify God, and extend the invitation of the gospel to everyone. And that's the viewed and the challenge of it as I see it and also what makes preaching so essential.

unknown: 17:22

Yeah.

Matt Kim: 17:22

That's great. Thank you. We're looking at the question of who is preaching for, and we want to move this a little bit closer to home, make it a little bit more personal. Uh Ami, as you work on preaching God's drama, how has that changed the way you communicate God's word?

Ahmi Lee: 17:40

Um, I can think of probably two key ways my preaching has really benefited from thinking in terms of the drama of scripture. First, it's helped me to stay grounded in the full biblical narrative, even as I dig deep into individual texts. I was trained in a pretty traditional expositional and exegetical style, and I still love doing that close, detailed work in scripture. Um, that hasn't changed. But what has changed is my awareness of the bigger picture. I don't want to just zoom in on a single passage and miss how it fits into the larger story of God's redemptive work. So when I'm studying a text now, I find myself asking, where does this moment fall in the overall story? How does this build on what's come before? And perhaps how does it prepare us for what's coming next? And I've come to realize that this wider lens doesn't distract from the details of the text, it actually helps me see them more clearly. The story gives context and meaning to the text, and the text in turn brings depth and nuance to the story. The second way the theodramatic approach has shaped my preaching is in how I think about engaging the congregation, especially when it comes to application. I used to think more in terms of a two-step process when it comes to application. First, explain what the text meant back then, and then try to draw out what it means for us today. But over time, I've come to see that understanding and applying scripture aren't two separate moves. They actually happen together. Scripture speaks to us now in the context of our real lives, and part of my job as a preacher is to hold the world of the text and the world of the congregation in conversation with each other throughout the entire sermon process. So instead of waiting until the end of the sermon to apply it then, I'm now much more intentional about letting the questions, experiences, and struggles of my listeners shape how I perhaps approach the text from the very beginning. And I try to stay open to where the spirit might be speaking, not just through my study, but through what I see and hear in the lives of the people that I'm preaching to. Because the truth is, I'm I'm really realizing that God is already active in people's lives. The congregation isn't some spiritually blank slate that I have to fill in. I believe that it's actually the epicenter of God's ongoing work in the world. And preaching in that light becomes less about inserting relevance and more about revealing the ways God's story continues to unfold right here, right now, in and through all of our lives.

Joel Lawrence: 21:50

I really appreciate that emphasis. Uh uh themes that have kind of come up as we've been having these conversations and even beyond in some of the broader CPT conversations is recognizing God is already at work. It's it's not our initiative that is, we're just stepping into what God is initiating all the time. So I think what you know, your thought there about app kind of don't think about application, just the thing at the end, but it's it's woven in all the way with the exposition, with the proclamation. I think that really in an in another way kind of helps us to reflect on that God's already at work and that's uh that's super helpful. So so in light of that, maybe as you've trained preachers, as you've as you've done some of the work that you've done, um in what ways do you think that that preachers need to grow in being more equipped to preach the story of God? Um what weaknesses do you think there are in evangelical preaching or even training within evangelicalism that are keeping us from being able to preach the drama of God?

Ahmi Lee: 23:07

Yeah, that's that's a great question. Um I circle back to something I mentioned earlier about reflecting out what shaped my own preaching. Um, one of the big challenges I see, especially in evangelical preaching, is a tendency to treat scripture in fragmented pieces rather than as part of a unified story. A lot of us were trained in historical and literary critical methods, um, which can be incredibly valuable. But that training can at times, I found, lead us to just zoom in so tightly on individual passages that we lose sight of how the Bible fits together as a coherent narrative. We focus on mining truths, doctrines, and applications from a given text, but don't always help people see how it all connects, how a particular passage is actually part of a much larger story. So as a result, maybe our congregations know a lot about isolated biblical facts and hold tightly to theological ideas, you know, like even ideological stances, but they don't necessarily have a deep integrated uh biblical framework for life. They've got pieces of the puzzle, but no real picture of the whole. And without that larger vision, I would say it's really hard for people to live faithfully in a complex and rapidly changing world. Many people genuinely want to live well as Christ followers, and some are genuinely searching for answers, but really feel ill-equipped to do so because the story they're living in feels too fragmented and disorienting, quite frankly. And without a compelling narrative to anchor their identity, guide their decisions, and sustain their faith, the Christian life can start to feel like something they have to manage rather than something organic and life-giving, something that they are living in to follow Christ. And this connects to another challenge I see in preaching today, which is the disembodiment of the gospel. In many churches, the sermon is primarily about conveying truth, about getting the theology right. And that's very important. Um, but I'd say that's not the whole purpose of preaching. Augustine once said that the purpose of preaching is to teach, delight, and move people. In other words, preaching should engage the mind, stir the heart, and lead to real transformation. It should shape the way people live. Well, unfortunately, many sermons today lean heavily into just one of those areas. Maybe they're intellectually rich but emotionally flat, or they're inspiring but light on substance. Um, or they stir the heart but don't call people to action. And what we really need is a more holistic ministry of the word, preaching that's theologically deep, pastorally sensitive, and spiritually formative. We need sermons that help people understand scripture well, and in doing so, equip them to play their parts well by living out that story through right actions, faithful presence, and embodied hope in the world.

Matt Kim: 26:18

Yeah, thanks, Ami. That's very helpful. As we um think about the series, we've been talking a lot about uh this idea of the listening church. And what is the role from your perspective? What is the role of the listener in the preaching moment? What's happening there? Is it and you know, how do we understand the theological nature of the church as listener from your perspective?

Ahmi Lee: 26:42

Yeah, I mentioned earlier that I see preaching as a doxological act, um, a kind of speech that lifts up God and lifts the church's gaze toward God. At its core, preaching is about glorifying God as I see it. And I think that that understanding shapes how we think about listening to. The church doesn't listen to sermons because we're bored and need something interesting to fill the time. We don't listen because God owes us an explanation, um, whether for his existence or our unanswered prayers or what's going on around the world. Um, no, we listen because God is holy, God is glorious, faithful, and entirely worthy of our attention and worship. We listen because this God has done something for us in Christ, and that's what scriptures tell us something unthinkable, something worth proclaiming again and again. And I think we need to teach the church that this is what listening means. Um, I think listening is such a familiar word that we sometimes forget what it really means, especially in the context of worship. We often think of listening as passive, maybe even routine. But I'd argue that in worship, listening is actually a deeply doxological act. It's not about sitting back, it's about leaning in. And more than that, it's about tuning in. We attune our hearts to the living God. Before the church goes out to do anything, it's the first and proper post, its first and proper posture is to behold, to look upon and respond to God in reverent attention. Why? Because God is the initiator. Um, we see in the theodrama that he acted first, he spoke first, he loved us first. And our listening is a response to the Holy One who has drawn near to sinners in grace. When we truly listen and worship, um, we're opening ourselves to scripture. We're reorienting our lives to God's reality. We're saying it's not about my story or my will, it's about your story, your will. In that kind of listening, we glorify God. It's not about hearing the word, but allowing it to fundamentally shape us so we can go out and do the word as well.

Joel Lawrence: 29:02

I think one of the things that I've often wrestled with as a preacher, and I've had many other preachers, we've talked about this before, is um in the listening congregation, there is going to be a wide variety of different people at different seasons of life, different maturity levels. Uh, just as an example for you guys, in my congregation where I was a senior pastor, I had a guy who had been a theology professor for decades. He had studied with Emile Brunner and Karl Bart in Switzerland in the 50s. And now he's in my congregation, sitting literally across the aisle from women who were out of prison that week, who would come to a transition home that we had a relationship with, and they were coming to uh come into our congregation. Many of them had not been in church in years and years and years. So I'm standing up now to proclaim the word of God to the theology professor and people just out of prison. And uh it certainly drove me to my knees, which I think was a good thing. But I wonder, Ami, if you can help us think about how does recognizing there's gonna a wide variety of maturity levels, how should that shape the way that we preach? How should that shape the way we think about um our sermons? Just love for you to help us as preachers to think about that a little bit.

Ahmi Lee: 30:32

Yeah. Um, you know, one communication principle that I think translates well to preaching is layering content. Um it's I I think this is maybe it gets a little technical, but I think it's really it's it's really theological, um, and what uh what I'm saying. It's kind of like decorating a cake. Um each layer adds something, depth, complexity, and maybe most importantly, accessibility, which is what we're talking about here. Um perhaps another way to picture it is in concentric circles. At the center of it all is the first layer, which is something universal, something everyone gets on a gut level, like the fact that we all want to be loved, uh, we all want to belong, and deep down we all want Is there more to life than what we can see or touch? So that I would say is a great place to begin thinking about our listeners. Um, when we when we speak from that shared space, we meet people right where they are. Where um wherever they are, you know, whether they're in a deep relationship with Christ or perhaps still exploring their faith journey and just looking from outside in, wondering if they should even, you know, come to church. Um, effective sermons build on these foundational human experiences, adapting their approach depending on what the biblical text is doing. So, for example, think of Romans 8:1. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. That that hits something deep within us, um, our fear of judgment. Most people, whether religious or not, carry some kind of guilt or fear that they've messed up beyond repair. I mean, we're all afraid of that. And this verse just slices through that with hope. And once that foundation is set, then we can think about adding another layer to that. And that layer that is um this time, uh, it adds more complexity and nuance. For instance, right after where Paul says in Romans that there is no condemnation, he starts talking about suffering in the next section. He says, Yeah, we're children of God, but we're also groaning, longing for our full redemption. And the truth is, we experience tension in our lives. We're forgiven, but that doesn't mean our struggles disappear on this side of heaven. And I think acknowledging that complexity, that that second layer of adding more complexity and nuance, it helps believers and non-believers feel seen and understood in their struggle. Um, the final layer of content, I think, is to add a layer of personalization, which is to draw out implications and applications. This is about how to make the sermon land in the lives of real people. So for a seasoned believer, based on the Romans text, you might ask something like, hey, you know the verse, you've quoted it, but do you actually believe that there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus? Do you still carry shame in the background of your faith? And for someone who is a non-believer, maybe the question sounds a little bit more like, what kind of love would it take to free you from the fear of being judged or never measuring up? It's gentle, but it gets under the surface. So in preaching, we're working with layers of rich content. Um, but I do want to be clear that I don't see the preacher's job as clothing biblical truth to make it more relevant, as I said earlier. Because God's truth already comes to us clothed in human experience. The word became flesh to reveal God to us. And I believe our task as preachers is to recognize those layers in the text and help listeners encounter how the spirit is already speaking through those kinds of layers into their lives.

Matt Kim: 34:33

Yeah, those are really helpful images and thinking about layers or the concentric circles. Um, I remember, I mean, as a pastor, you know, within like the first six months, I realized that my church members did not understand the Bible. They or they didn't know the Bible. They and you would you would say, you know, let's turn to any of the minor prophets, and nobody knew where they were. Uh they didn't know um, you know, who they were or what they preached about. And so I decided to do this long sermon series, and it was it was overly ambitious where I tried to preach one book of the Old Testament per Sunday. So this was like um read through the entire book of Genesis and distill it into one idea, right? So one segment of scripture. And so I I chose Genesis 12, and and I thought that, you know, people would argue, no, you have to go back to creation or the fall or any of those themes. Um, but I chose Genesis 12 as uh God's promise to Abraham. And so as we think about um the listener, you know, the reason why I did that sermon series is because I wanted to educate my church on what does the Bible say? What are these books about? Um, tailoring it to their um biblical illiteracy in their case. And so in sermon preparation for you, Ami, how how should the preachers be guided by the hearers? What are what are some considerations um that we need to make, depending on who's listening out there? And you you touched on that in the previous questions, but could you go a little deeper there for us?

Ahmi Lee: 36:11

Yeah, that's that's a great point, Matt. Um maybe I'll just come at this from a different angle, from a slightly different angle. But I think in today's increasingly global and interconnected world, I think it's so important for preachers to prepare sermons with a diverse audience in mind. Um to your point, Matt, I think some people are gonna be very theologically uh illiterate. But um, and Joel mentioned that earlier too in his story, but some are gonna be very seasoned believers. So, you know, the truth is we don't really know who's listening. Um, sure there are people in the room on Sunday, but then the message might also reach someone a week later on a podcast like this, or a month later on YouTube, and it just lives on forever. And honestly, that can feel a bit overwhelming. Um, and there's a sense of helplessness that creeps in. Like, how do you speak meaningfully to people you may never even meet? But I do think there are still meaningful ways we can prepare. Um, and one insight I really appreciate it comes from the homilitician Leonora Tubbs Tisdale. She talks about the importance of understanding your listeners in three ways. First, um, she says, and this is something that cultural anthropologists all know that she's saying that preachers really need to keep in mind. She said, first, people are like all others. We all share certain core human experiences, and I've kind of touched on that earlier. Things like our search for purpose and connection, for instance. Um, second, people are like no other. Every person is a unique individual with their own personality, story, and way of seeing the world, and we need to acknowledge that. And third, people are like some others. They're shaped by specific communities and identities they belong to, whether that's cultural background, generation, gender, or life stage. So, for example, you might have listeners who resonate with the Asian American experience, like myself, or maybe there's a group of young adults who are wrestling with forming meaningful connections in a digital world. But when we prepare sermons, we should try to keep these three dynamics in mind: what's universal, what's individual, and what's culturally specific. And I also think these three framings also are helpful in evaluating our sermons. We can ask ourselves: are we speaking only in generalities, um in universals, failing to make individuals feel truly seen? Or are we doing a great job connecting with individuals, but perhaps missing the opportunity to build bridges across different people and subgroups? Are we crafting sermons that unite us in our shared humanity? So we can look at our sermons from different angles. And when we think about framing a message with those dynamics in mind, we're not talking about changing the truth of the gospel. What we mean is how we present the truth so it actually connects with people. That might mean choosing examples, language, and imagery that speak directly to people's lived experience. It might mean asking questions in our sermons that different types of listeners would find compelling. And I believe our tone matters too in this. The way we preach, the posture we take, um, should not only reflect what the text is doing, but also speak to the emotional and spiritual needs of the people in front of us. And framing that a message well is really about removing distractions and obstacles, I would say. So the truth of the gospel comes through clearly and people are in a place where they can actually hear it and maybe even receive it.

Joel Lawrence: 40:04

Ami, just been really and grateful for for your thoughtfulness and your reflections on this. Uh, as we as we draw the conversation to a close, we've kind of gotten into a pattern in this podcast series by asking a more general question at the end. And it's been fun to hear different people's responses to the question just what is God teaching you today as a shepherd, as a disciple? Uh, and how is God shaping you as a communicator of his word?

Ahmi Lee: 40:36

Um, thank you. I think that's a thoughtful question to end on. I'm I'm realizing more and more that the hardest lessons in life are often the simplest ones. And for me lately, that simple lesson um is this, which is to trust the Lord fully. And it sounds really simple, but boy, is it hard. Um Do I really trust that God is in control of my life and over the chaos in this world? And and that chaos just feels overwhelming these days. Do I trust that he's the great shepherd of the church, the one who makes us lack nothing? Uh do I truly believe that God's goodness and love will follow us all the days of our lives, even when the world tries to steal that from us? Um, I believe we're really living in restless times. The change, the disruption, it just doesn't let up. But I believe that trusting in the Lord is what grounds us in these moments. It reorients our perspective so we don't have to panic. Um, whether we're in green pastures beside still waters or walking through the darkest valley, we're not tossed by every wave. We're quietly grounded. And that's really what I want for myself. And that's what I'm learning today, that that maybe that's what God wants for his shepherds and for his church.

Joel Lawrence: 42:01

Yeah. I just would would say a hearty amen to that. And uh I I conversations, even in some of these, some of the some of these themes have come out. I feel like there's a there's a bit of a testing of the church these days of what do you really believe in and what have you been believing in that you need to let go of. And uh so just appreciate your word there. And and again, thanks so much for sharing with us and uh grateful for you and your friendship with the Center for Pastor Theologians and um blessings to you as you continue to do what God's called you to do and as you trust in Him.

Ahmi Lee: 42:41

Thank you so much. Thank you again for having me.

Joel Lawrence: 42:46

Really enjoyed that conversation. Matt, what stood out to you as as Ami was reflecting on God's grand drama and who preaching is for?

Matt Kim: 42:55

Yeah, I mean, Ami is such a thoughtful, uh, well-seasoned preacher, and she knows uh so many of the intricacies of that conversation. So uh what stood out to me, I I really appreciated her comment about doxology. Uh we don't really associate preaching with doxology, and that stood out to me that uh as well as the fact that uh she's absolutely right that we compartmentalize the the word of God so much that we forget that there's this grand drama, there's this grand story. So those two things really stood out to me. Yeah, how about for yourself?

Joel Lawrence: 43:27

Yeah, uh the the way she framed that when she was talking about doxology, she had the phrase preaching is for God. And that that jumped out at me. You know, it's not preaching is not to God, we're not, but it is for God as our primary uh congregants, you might say. But guiding our congregation into the presence of God, I think, really is is critically important. So yeah, I I really appreciated that as well. Uh I, you know, I also thought that that her she was exemplary of a theology of preaching in this conversation, right? That that there's a rich theological framework operative in the way she thinks about what preaching is. And I I think it's just a great example of what we want to promote here at the CPT and through the thinking we're doing on preaching in this series and other ways of um how vital it is that we have the kind of depth that she has. We're not gonna demonstrate that to everyone all the time in every sermon, but if we're not deeply rooted in that kind of a rich vision of preaching, then our preaching is gonna be lacking. It is gonna fall short. So I just appreciated this conversation's kind of a model of someone who has thought richly, deeply theologically, and then can can enunciate that with such clarity. So yeah, really appreciated her her heart, her mind coming through in that. So great. All right, Matt. Well, it's been fun to have another conversation again. Uh, and we'll look forward to talking again next time. Wonderful. Thanks, Joe.

Zach Wagner: 45:17

Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider subscribing if you haven't already? You can also help us out by leaving a rating and especially a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. We love hearing from listeners in this way, and it helps others find out about the show. The Pastor Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about the CPT at our website, Pastor Theologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook, YouTube, and follow us on YouTube. This show is produced by Seth Porch and Sophia Luke. The show is recorded and edited in partnership with Glowfire Creative, and editing is done by Seth Frequ. Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence, Ray Paul, and me, Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.