The Pastor Theologians Podcast
A theology podcast for the church. The pastor theologians podcast consists of conversations and teaching resources at the intersection of theological scholarship and life and ministry in the local church. The vision for this show is to help equip pastors to be theologians for today’s complex world.
The Pastor Theologians Podcast
Social Media, Attention, and AI | Dan Brendsel (Preaching and the Pastor Theologian Episode 8)
Joel Lawrence and Matt Kim speak with CPT Fellow Dan Brendsel about preaching in an age shaped by social media, attention economics, and artificial intelligence, exploring how technology subtly reinforces idolatry and the illusion of control. Brendsel argues that preaching should resist catering to diminished attention spans and instead cultivate prayerful attentiveness to God, framing preaching as God’s address to a listening community rather than a performance or content delivery optimized by technique or AI. Drawing on thinkers like Neil Postman, C. S. Lewis, and Oliver O’Donovan, he emphasizes improvisation, dependence on the Spirit, and the irreplaceable “occasion” of preaching—something no algorithm can anticipate. The conversation challenges pastors to examine how technology forms both preachers and congregations, calling them back to trust in the Word, embodied listening, and a posture of humble submission rather than technological mastery.
And there are ways to address areas that you need growth with that aren't starting with criticism. So where it comes through in my actual preaching, I hope, is sermons that are that aren't pressing us to grow, but by presenting a beautiful invitation that the Lord's giving to us as the body of Christ.
Joel Lawrence:Hi everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. Welcome to the special series, Preaching and the Pastor Theologian. Grateful to be here once again with my co-host Matt Kim. Matt, welcome. Good to see you again. You too, Joel. Good to be with you. Yeah, great. And today on the episode, we're talking to Dan Brenzel. Dan serves as the senior pastor of First Presbyterian Church in Hinckley, Minnesota. He has degrees from Moody Bible Institute, Gordon Conwell Seminary, Wheaton College. And we have Dan on today to talk about the theme of social media attention and AI. And I know if anyone is paying attention to the world around us, we know these are huge elements that are shaping the world today. Technology has really changed the way that we live, the way we work, the way we learn. It's the way really we understand and navigate the world around us. And so as we're thinking about preaching from a theological perspective, I think it's it's really critical for us to reflect on this important topic itself theologically. How do we think about technology theologically? But then also how do we navigate it in preaching? So um so we brought Dan on uh to reflect with us on that. And Matt, before we turn to the conversation with Dan, I just wanted to ask you from your perspective, um, what do you see as some of the challenges and opportunities of technology and preaching and how to think about it theologically?
Matt Kim:Yeah, I think as uh we're gonna hear from Dan throughout this conversation, uh slowing down and really focusing on attention and Dan's uh emphasis on prayer. It reminded me of if our listeners are familiar with the work of uh Jay Kim, who's a pastor in California, he's written a couple books on analog Christian, analog church, in many ways uh a sabbatical from technology to get us to slow down in this uh attention deficit disorder world that we're living in. Yeah. Uh Dan's got a lot of great insights that I think you're gonna be noticing in just a moment.
Joel Lawrence:Yeah, and I uh think uh, you know, as we're kind of continuing through this series to be thinking about a theological framework for preaching. The the the fact that that that preaching has been a call of the church over millennia, the context within which we are doing that obviously is constantly changing. But I I think the the call that we'll we'll hear in the conversation that that I think is so an such an important thing as we reflect on this is to a a dependence upon the word. And and that one of the dangers of technology, I think, is it can take us away from that. There are there are real opportunities tech with technology, but there are also some some dangers with technology that take us away from that kind of simple posture of dependence upon the word, trusting in the word. We can start to trust in our slick presentations, we can start to trust in other things. And and I think that theme kind of is is something that uh that that as we talk with Dan uh will come out in various different ways. So so uh hope everyone enjoys the conversation and is encouraged and challenged by the conversation on social media attention and AI. Dan, it's it's great to have you on the podcast. Thanks for joining us for this uh special series on preaching in the pastor theologian.
Dan Brendsel:Yeah, thank you, Joel. I'm glad to glad to be here, glad to be a part of it and really eager to see how this series comes together.
Matt Kim:Well, Dan, you've been on the podcast before, so you're a veteran, but maybe you could spend a few minutes reacquainting our listeners with who you are, maybe talk about your faith journey, educational background, and pastoral life.
Dan Brendsel:Yeah, thanks. Uh yeah, I'll try to try to make it um in a in a nutshell here, uh two-minute elevator testimony, as it were. But uh when I was uh um I I grew up uh raised in a in a believing family, grew up going to church. Um the Lord really um throughout that time was was um good and kind and drawing me, calling me, um working in my life, but but I didn't really personally respond in any any overt, knowing, um sincere way until um about the time I graduated from high school. Some very good friends of mine challenged me, uh asked me where where I stood with the Lord. I was a professing Christian, but didn't really take it, seemed to take anything seriously, had no real fruit. And so they they just kind of very lovingly asked me about that. And so that was um a major moment uh turning point in terms of the the spirits shaking me out of complacency and toward toward a recognition of my sin, toward a recognition of my need for Christ. Um and so that was a that was a very significant um event in my life or or conversation in my life. As a result of that, I I had a desire to kind of grow in in my faith and knowledge of Christ, to grow in my um understanding of scripture. And so that led me at the time, I thought it was going to be what we would call nowadays a gap year, uh, to a small little um Bible retreat center for a year in Colorado. And um was a was a super fun year, enriching year, um, and also uh a year for me to realize I love learning scripture. I love being able to communicate it with others, and so that set me on a trajectory toward um pastoral vocation that that I've been on ever since. Kind of have have jumped around through, I describe it often as um a tour through as many evangelical bastions as I could find. And so I went to Moody Bible Institute for undergrad, I went to um an apprenticeship program at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, and then I was at Gordon Conwell, finished up my MDiv, and then I went to Wheaton for a PhD, PhD in New Testament and Biblical Theology. And so tried to tried to get into every evangelical center I could in that span of time. And um long and short of it is um after some uncertainty of whether the end game for me professionally, I guess, would be teaching in a seminary or pastoring, um, the Lord kind of made it clear uh toward the end of that journey that that really our heart was and his his direction of our life what was going to be in the local church. And so I was an associate pastor for about a decade in um just south of Wheaton, Illinois, at a non-denominational church. And both in the growing of a desire for um a pastoral, uh senior pastor um calling, and then also in the growing transition, transformation theologically of some of our convictions, um, that led to um a rather circuitous uh path to um the PCA in which I'm now now uh pastor, where I've been um for four years.
Joel Lawrence:Dan, we've we've got you on the podcast today to talk about the the theme of social media attention and AI. Um so kind of a a conversation about preaching and technology today. You know, you've been doing some reflecting on technology over the years. In fact, we were we were both uh speakers at the CPT's techne conference in in 2019. Um neither of us, I think we would proclaim any kind of uh professional uh uh training in technology, but um uh opportunity to to think pastorally about tech. So that was 2019, which wasn't very long ago, and yet it seems like a really long time ago, right? That was before COVID. That was before the the coming of AI, the kind of world that we're living in now. So I'd love just as we begin to set this conversation up, setting the table, kind of as you've thought about technology over the years, have you thought about technology as a pastor, as a as a thinker? What kind of big picture thoughts uh have come to your mind? What theological themes maybe are shaping the way that you think about pastoral ministry in relation to technology?
Dan Brendsel:Yeah, uh the it's funny you say um that 2019 conference feels like a long time ago. It was it was like another lifetime ago, I feel like it feels like it. So um, and so when uh when you first invited me to be um guest on the podcast to talk about this particular topic, that's was my first thought. Is it has been ages since I've thought about this, um, which is somewhat somewhat um tongue-in-cheek. Uh it's a it's it's impossible not to continue be thinking about it. Yeah, um, but yeah, that was a long time ago. Uh and as I'm got the question and and thinking of how my big picture thoughts have kind of adapted or or or shifted or grown. Um, a few things that it came to mind um were um number one, interestingly enough, I've I've I've thought much, much more in connection with idolatry um and and the the um the effort at control, which uh technology per se as as a as a thing, as the product of our working, we might say, um obviously we we control those things or we try to control those things, and then there's some questions about does the technology control us? But but more uh not so much in at that level of control, but more just in the way of thinking, of viewing reality as ways in which we get more control. All things are viewed as opportunities for control, and and to me, the more I've been thinking about and preaching um to um the body of Christ, the danger of idolatry is is just so abundantly clear to me and so unmistakable in the in the drama of scripture, pages of scripture, um, that that idolatry really is a kind of it's it's religion is applied science. It's a it's a it's a pursuit after control and and um a twisting of the divine's arm to get our way, and that that's increasingly how I think about technology. So they seem to very much dovetail then. Where there's a technological mindset, there's an idolatrous route. So so that's been one area where I find myself repeatedly coming, coming back and and thinking about on the flip side, uh uh perhaps it could be the flip side at least. Um I've also very much found myself thinking about things like serendipity and surprise, and um, and for the Christian life, the responsibility, the faithful calling to what I've increasingly called improvisation, which is in many sense the the relinquishing of control and giving yourself to the spirit of the moment, though I don't know if how tight that connection should be drawn. That those seem to me to be two parts of the same conversation.
Matt Kim:Yeah, Dan, as we think about key voices or influencing people out there, uh have you run across any thinkers on AI and who who who might they be and how have you interacted with them? Are there any resources out there that you've interacted with or key thinkers that have maybe shaped a theology of how you view or you use AI or technology?
Dan Brendsel:Yeah, real real big picture. I mean, early on, some of my earliest thoughts about it were stirred by um, you know, everyone's favorite uh Neil Postman and um Amusing Ourselves to Death and Technopoly. And so that was kind of early thinking, which I found very helpful, at least to frame some new questions. Um, and and then through Postman, Marshall McLuhan, um a really, really influential one at several levels, both in terms of his essays, his and his and also his his fiction writing, his novels is C. S. Lewis, um, his his abolition of man comment that's quoted justifiably so all over the place. But um the the overlap between ancient magic and contemporary applied science uh is uh um it used to be that we sought to submit our souls to reality and now we try to submit reality to our souls' wishes and desires. Um so influential for me, just that that general um lens through which to look at the human plight in the world and responsibility and response to to what is, uh, and kind of building on that then would be from that framework, I think, is a little slim volume by Oliver O'Donovan, Begotten or Made, on reproductive technology is hugely, hugely helpful for me that I read many years back. Another big one, more more substantive and robust, um, that was very helpful, that that I find myself going back to repeatedly is um Brian Brian Brock. I don't even know the title of it now, but something like Christian wisdom in a technological age or something along those lines. And then um when you specifically say AI, I haven't done much of a deep dive on AI simply out of um a lack of time, perhaps, and terrible interest in it. But um, but I have the things that I have seen have come from the New Atlantis Journal, very, very helpful resource. And they had have several pieces on AI, but then uh one volume uh maybe about last spring would be my guess, was when that volume of that journal came out that was devoted to a kind of an AI roundtable on AI. That was helpful, and then a very provocative essay by Paul Kings North on uh on AI and its potential demonic roots. So those those about the extent that I've read on it or been exposed to it, um, which admittedly is not keeping pace with what's being thought about and re read.
Joel Lawrence:So uh Dan, I I I think what I have appreciated about kind of as as we've walked through this conversation so far is just the uh the framing with which you are are coming to this conversation, right? That kind of a clear theological vision, you've got some categories that are in place, kind of helping you uh, you know. I I I'm never gonna be at the place where I can do a deep dive into AI and fully understand what's going on there, but I think a a a critical pastoral need is kind of a framework with which we're bringing to this conversation. And and I've appre I appreciate kind of how you've laid out the idolatry and then, you know, some of the resources that aren't just of the moment resources, but give us a little bit of of background and understanding and and vision to to come to bear. Um because I think one of the challenges that we have is because this is so fast moving, right? Because this is such a an ongoing daily almost kind of advance that it's it's it would be easy to get sucked into it in a way that keeps us from having the kind of of framework that you're you're describing. And and I think one of the one of the um issues that we seem to be faced with culturally right now is uh the question of attention. There's lots going on about what technology is doing to our attention, and you know, lots of conversations about what it's doing to our kids. The Jonathan Haidt book The Anxious Generation that came out not too long ago exploring some of these things. And and I'm I'm curious about as a pastor, as a preacher, like one of the things that I've I've heard is people saying that that we should be we should adjust our preaching to kind of this this what seems to be a lessening attention span. Maybe we do, I don't know, like TikToks, you know, little clips of preaching or or whatever it might be. As you think about preaching and attention, uh maybe experiencing some of this yourself, what do you think about the role of preaching in a place, in a culture where there does seem to be at least some sense of a diminishing in attention? What's the role of preaching in that context?
Dan Brendsel:A couple of the thoughts that come to mind um immediately would be well, just the word attention in this context makes me think of um Simone Vay, attention in its highest degree, purest form is prayer. Um and so it strikes me as odd that we would want to cater to small attention when talking about the God to whom we pray. Um now you now granted that cater might be the wrong word, you can you can say we want to um we're seeking to, knowing that that attention spans are small, we're seeking to try to figure out ways to grab that. But but I I I just wonder if it contributes to the noise that is part of what makes attention um so hard to hold on to. So if we add more noise by little snippets, uh it it um it reproduces the problem we're think we're we we might be helping. Um what we need is a praying people, a people who attend to God in a direct way. This goes back to kind of big picture, as you're asking in the compelling preaching initiative in general. What is preaching? Um, but it of all things, it's it's it's um of all the things that it does sort of function, ancillary functions. What it is, I think we would say theologically, is the address of God to the covenant people. Um, that is something we aren't necessarily trying to use to build attention, it's something we need to attend to. And so the cultivating of attention probably would have to come out in other sort of discipleship that happens besides in the preaching moment. We wouldn't want to kind of use the preaching moment to do something that we are trying to cultivate for the preaching moment itself, and namely attention to the guy who addresses us. Uh so uh yeah, that might sound circular. Um, or it should certainly coming out of my mouth sounds very circular to me now. But um but that seems to me to be a using of the wrong tool to get a good end, but but a using of the wrong tool.
Joel Lawrence:Yeah, I that that's really interesting, I think. That I haven't I haven't thought deeply about the kind of prayer as a as a mechanism of engaging the the way that we're being formed by technology, like particularly. I I think that's uh that's an interesting insight. So just curious, quick follow-up on that. Um pastorally, what does it look like for you to to teach your people to pray? What what what does that look like in your ministry?
Dan Brendsel:I think that I mean, um big picture liturgically, it's it's shaping our our our um corporate worship engagement in which preaching happens, shaping it in such a way that we realize we respond to this God who is initiating the relationship. We respond to this God who is addressing us um by means of the of the spoken word, by means of the uh um sacramental word, by Means of the living word Christ who is given for us and is um by his spirit present among us. So sh training in the rhythms of that response, that's that's what I understand the kind of corporate worship, uh Sunday morning liturgy um uh uh engagement is uh and so pastorally I'm that's part of my shaping. Some of it's just praying with people, inviting them to pray, and and and that involves, you know, what's the Lord doing in your life? How's how's the Lord speaking? Um, what has the Lord been calling you to through your engagement in your personal engagement in scripture, through what you've heard Sunday morning, and so so in people's lives and people's homes, um, asking how they're responding to the God who is seeking them in Christ and and working by his spirit in in um and through the ordinary means and through other ways that I may or may not be aware of in in people's lives. So so praying with them, inviting them to pray, and and maybe just encouraging them sometimes to pray. There's some that that are just uh there is a real um sweet, sweet woman in our congregation. Um, she was a shut-in, wasn't around by the time I got here, wasn't around the church, just um, but but at home. And so I would visit her, and um, and I remember her asking me, um, I don't I just don't know what to pray sometimes. Like, and that's all she was shut-in, so she's just home all the time. And she's like, I should pray, I should use this time to pray, but I don't know what to pray. And I said, You just start with the Lord's prayer. And she said, Is that okay? Just pray the Lord's prayer every day. I said, Uh yes, I think it seems to me that's Jesus' uh logic when he says, Pray this way, give us today our daily prayer. He kind of expects it to be a daily prayer. So just start with that and see where that goes. And she's like, Oh, okay. And so just encouraging them to start is is um um part of how I would teach a response to God. Um, and and um, but that's a response to the God who we know, the God who addresses us and reveals himself in his word.
Matt Kim:Yeah, Dan, I think you were uh alluding to this. Uh, maybe we could think a little bit intentionally about are there any ways that you have shepherded the church regarding technology? For example, have you ever preached on it? Do you talk about it in small group ministry or discipleship groups? Uh, how have you shaped the congregation on this topic?
Dan Brendsel:Yeah, uh I think um certainly there has been some teaching opportunities. It doesn't come out very frequently, and um, or at least more recently, I'll put it this way. It doesn't come out volvertly on a ton of sermons, though there are times when I'm able to address a particularly relevant matter, whether it's it's usually in areas of of news media or social media, but um somewhat because of of just kind of the the habit that we have of of uh expositionally preaching through a sermon. I'm kind of wanting the text uh or not necessarily current events, not necessarily technological hobby horses that I have. Um where it comes up more overtly is as you mentioned in in other um whether that's Sunday school settings or small group types of settings and discussions. So I I made reference to the um to the Paul Kings North essay on AI. That's something that I read with a small group of small group of men that that um was meeting monthly at our house, and we were we would read an essay or a book together. And so I I um just for kicks said, hey, let's read this Paul Kingsnorth essay and uh and weirded everyone out.
Joel Lawrence:I'm curious, how did that go? How did they respond to that?
Dan Brendsel:Um there was great appreciation for um some of the questions he was raising. I I think there was for the ones that were able to make it all the way through the essay, um there just was a little confusion, yeah, and uncertainty. Um and that's a kind of a frequent one frequent response I find for starting up questions about technology and and the the bigger, greater implications of our engagement with it. The the kind of first response is always, okay, these are good things to know, but I know I know I'll use it right. And so that's a that's a first step. I think we need to ask some more questions or press on it some more than simply, oh, I'm the user and I'm in, again, I'm the one in control. Um but that was that was kind of one of the one of the main responses.
Joel Lawrence:Talking about using technology, kind of getting a little more brass tacks here in this conversation for yourself. Uh, how do you use technology in your own sermon, both prep and and maybe presentation as well? And so, how do you think about like with this framing of the potential of idolatry, the control? We all do use technology in some form or fashion. So, how do you use it in in prep, in preaching? But then also, what is it that you're trying to be aware of or mindful of in the way that you use it, particularly with regard to preaching, which ideally is a moment where we're we're giving over control to the spirit of God, to the word of God to do what God wants to do. So I'd just be curious how you how you think through those things.
Dan Brendsel:I appreciate how you say that. I mean, everyone uses if if by technology we simply mean the the stuff that extends our abilities.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Dan Brendsel:I mean, there's uh a pencil, is that right? Um, and so uh uh so there's when when I initially saw the question, I my first thought was, well, I use a computer, I type up my sermons, I but then I realized, well, there's so many levels of it, right? And so so there is a kind of all my all my sermons are for the most part, um, at least in terms of preparation, manuscripted. So I'm I'm writing that out on a word processing program. And the notes that I take are mostly notes that that that are kept in um a different um outlining program software that I have. Um some taken notes. Uh some of my reading is is online, whether that's through PDFs or ebooks. Um the a good chunk of my reading, though, I is still kind of a physical book, which in and of itself is a is a form of techne. And but there's uh um obviously differences in in that engagement. Uh one area that that has increasingly been used by me, partly because um my context, at least pastorally, a little bit more rural, geographically spread out. And so I find myself in doing um you know pastoral care and visits, um, doing a good amount of driving. And so I've been using text to audio software, uh a little app to help me stay up on some of the reading and preparation stuff that I'm doing. Um, so that's a that's a a significant use of and and common use of technology. So in the actual delivery um or preaching Sunday morning, I I print out the manuscript on on regular 8x11 and a half, eight and a half by eleven paper, 92 brightness. The uh the uh specs. Yes, yeah. We don't have we don't have any screen projection in our sanctuary.
Joel Lawrence:And so is that a decision? Is that just the nature of it? Never have had it.
Dan Brendsel:It's a little bit of uh the nature of it. So um if if you see our sanctuary, the the front of it, right behind the pulpit, is this big, beautiful window. It's it's it's lovely. And it's also hilarious because it's it's this big window right behind me. I can definitely tell if something's going on behind me, like no one's watching the birds flying around or whatever. So so the uh but um but yeah, so that doesn't allow for a screen there. There are some walls where potentially some screens could be put, but and there have been some discussions historically in our church to do that, but it just hasn't, yeah, there's been a sense of not not a need for it. What the advantage that that has for me, or or I guess it's not an advantage, what that's resulted in for me is instead of using screens perhaps where some might put up outlines or something, we actually print out our outlines and we include it in part of what we call a worship folder. It's basically a booklet with with the service order and announcements and everything. And so I include a kind of outline of the sermon in there as well, which kind of produces a nice little handy takeaway of the whole kind of covenantal event of the of the Sunday morning engagement and not just sort of the sermon ripped out of context.
Matt Kim:Uh prior to uh a lot of this discussion was a website called sermoncentral.com. And uh, you know, now we have preaching today and other uh websites that you know provide not only sermon outlines but entire manuscripts. Uh now we're moving toward AI and Chat GPT and software and technology that can write your own write your sermon for you. How have you navigated that, Dan? And are there any conversations going on within your denomination among pastors and their views on on use or lack of use? Or how how have they navigated that?
Dan Brendsel:Yeah, it's a good question. Denominationally, I don't know of anything off the top of my head in terms of ongoing um conversations, debates. I'm sure that there are, I just haven't noticed them or paid attention. I I in terms of my I mean at one level, everyone's now using AI if they're using Google, right? Um and uh and that's even some of those just quick, simple Google searches, the the little AI answers that that appear at the top. I mean, that can be helpful and time-saving for some things, I suppose. I've not ever even sat down to think about could could I do a sermon on AI? Um the only thing I've ever thought to sit down and do on AI is ask it to make a picture of my friend's um um goofy story that I hear on text message so I can send them back something funny. Um so that's the extent of my experience with Chat GPT and and the and the like. Um I I do to go to the initial comments that I made about surprise and serendipity and improvisation, it might sound odd because I manuscript my sermons, but that is part of I would say part of my improvising. Um it's it's me trying to sit down and ask what is needed to be said to these people now. And then what ends up happening on a Sunday morning is I mean, by the time I'm there Sunday morning, I probably have a good chunk of it memorized. Uh it's it's not as if I'm reading my manuscript, though I am following along in it. But I'm also there's things that I just the spirit kind of impels me to press on or to to really emphasize vocally, maybe, or to or to clarify um in a way that didn't dawn on me in my preparation. So so I would at it at my best, and granted I'm not always at my best, frankly, I'm I'm always sinfully trying not to be my best, but at my best, even in my preparation, I'm seeking to submit to how the Spirit would press me for this time and place. And then in the actual engagement, coming into engagement on Sunday morning, that submitted this, I hope, is still sort of coming out when I'm delivering. And so we're we're recently preaching. Um, I'm right now preaching through Ephesians, and I've just finished the passage at the end of chapter four where Paul gives a bunch of bullet point exhortations. Do not do this, but do this. Very striking contrasts, negative positive contrasts to highlight the nature, the practical nature of putting off the old and putting on the new. And so he gives a bunch of practical exhortations, negative positive style. It's striking and telling that the one not negative positive exhortation is the simple prohibition, do not grieve the Holy Spirit that's thrown in the midst of all these practical exhortations. Um, and so to me, it seems like those practical exhortations are how we number one, not grieve the Holy Spirit by by putting off and putting on, but then also how we're ways in which we are uh opening ourselves up to the Spirit's pressing and prodding and providing for the moment. And where that comes through most tellingly then is in is in the verse in Ephesians uh four, I think it's 29, let no corrupting speech come out of your mouths, but only such as is fitting for the occasion. You can't prepare that ahead of time, you can't study up and get the right answer ahead of time. If you're it in the moment, when you when you're face to face with the person in need, uh the the right word is going to be, according to Jesus' own promise, the right word is going to be given by the Spirit. And so there is a sense in which I wonder, without having thought about it much personally and thought about the motivations of others in using AI, I do wonder if part of what would impel someone to say, oh, I can get a sermon AI prepared is I can I can get a I can get all the right information in there and get the right answer. Uh but in a sense, that right answer could never be the word that's needed for the occasion. You can't prepare for that. You you you submit to the spirit's leading for that. And so all all amounts of preparation are needed to improvise well. Improvisation is a good metaphor, I found, uh, because good improvisers don't just sort of wing it without any thoughtfulness, preparedness. Good improvisers actually do a lot of practice, and uh and strangely enough. And um, and so there is a good preparation and practice and a kind of rooting in what we might call the right answers biblically, theologically, absolutely, but that's preparation for the moment of need, for the moment of of um improvisation, for the occasion that actually meets us, which you can't predict ahead of time and control ahead of time. And so, so yeah, there's a there's a there is a sense in which it seems to me at least the use of AI only asks the what's the right answer sort of question and not what's the occasion that we can not predict ahead of time.
Joel Lawrence:I I think this notion of the occasion is is a really important theological theme in preaching that that I we have been in in different ways kind of in these conversations, this is this has been lingering around for us. Um and and one of the ways it's coming out is in the question of I think we we think about preaching theologically as the address of God, but there's also a receiver of that address, the church that hears the word, that the church that is participating in that occasion that that also in a sense is improvising, right? There they're along my my little brother, he he he did improv comedy for a long time. And it was fascinating to watch it and hear about it and and the rules about how you have how you interact with each other that structure it. And so I'm I'm curious, Dan, your thoughts, your thoughts about the listening community in this in this whole conversation about preaching and improvisation, this theme that you've brought into this conversation. How how do you as a pastor think about attending to the listening of your congregation, to, to encouraging them, to shepherding them, like understand this? Isn't just I'm not just standing up here and delivering a lecture. We're meeting with God. There's there's an exchange happening here that none of us are in control of. How do you how do you think about that and and shepherd your church in that?
Dan Brendsel:Um my immediate thought is uh to remember that I'm first a listener as well. Um and that's that's the danger of preaching, isn't it? Um because by by regular practice, we are typically the one delivering the sermon. Um it can be hard to I mean, it's not that hard to remember the the thought into uh to keep it um intellectually in view. I'm a listener too, but but the practice of listening becomes crucial. Not only listening to my, you know, the the word preached should first be preached to your own soul. Um this should not be something that you're just beating others about. You're this is this is the hammer of God on your own heart, as it were, and and so uh there's a sense in which that's a that's a challenging spiritual discipline to to um to hear the word yourself first as you're preparing the word to preach. Um certainly the other helps are are are abundantly provided and needed to be to be um received, um, and and that can be Sundays off, hearing the word preached. The practice of in in our church at least, where we have a we have a scripture reading that's actually separate from the from the um scripture sermon text. And the scripture reading kind of follows basically a lectionary model of working our way through the biblical storyline according to the time of the of the church calendar. And that separate scripture reading is important for me because I don't do that. One of our other ruling elders in the church does that scripture reading and I sit down with the congregation. I just need that regular embodied enactment of the fact that I am under this word with everyone else, even though I'm gonna get up here and preach. This is not my word. Um, and so first and foremost, I I hope I would shepherd my congregation in a listening and receptivity, submission to and and attentiveness to the word by by modeling it in various ways that I can. There's a kind of conversation that happens that ought to happen um after the preaching of the word that cultivates a through time a deepening and a growing, a maturing in listening. And so asking people, any thoughts on that? Or um, how did you fare under the word? Uh what's the Lord how how are you responding to to what the Lord's been doing here in our midst? Um, so that's that's an important part, encouraging those conversations because there's needfulness of the pastoral pursuit of asking those questions. There's also a great advantage for other people asking those questions and not the pastor asking you that question. And so cultivating those kinds of conversations among others in their own little gatherings and groupings, and and um, whether that's through small small group Bible studies or just a kind of the uh development overall, um, a a um cultivation of the of the lost art of spiritual conversation in the congregation more generally. So that's part of how I envision trying to help mature us in our listening together. Yeah, those would be a few thoughts that come to mind.
Matt Kim:Dan, thanks so much for this uh rich, uh helpful conversation. Uh, as you think about, you just shared recently about uh the attention to the spirit and uh being uh attuned to the spirit in your pastoring. What is God telling you these days? How is how is God shepherding you and what what kinds of visions or dreams do you have for the church as you pastor them in these difficult days that we're in right now?
Dan Brendsel:Um very very personal question um and and needful. Um so a few of the areas where I feel just sort of the the movement of the spirit to pull me out of myself and into Christ-likeness um would be a um I guess that's the best way to put it is to have a short memory and not just not just coddle things. Um a comment here, uh dissatisfaction that I've heard there, or um news of the grapevine over here. There there's a tendency um that I have carried with me my whole life to take that thing and just spin. It over and over and over again. And the things that build off that have never been um healthy and and and uh Christ honoring and and loving to those um that I'm brothers and sisters with in the body. So so the spirit's definitely been been pressing me to let go of those. Maybe there are legitimate things that hurt, or maybe they are um things that are that are real of real concern. But if I'm not willing to actually address it, well, let's just drop it. Right. So that's uh as a as a as a preacher um and as one who in that in many ways feels responsible for the health and well-being of the church, you can justify keep holding on to those things because this is um, but but for my money, for my experience, I guess I just holding on to them has never been helpful unless I'm gonna actually act on them. So that's been an area where the where the spirit has been impressing me. What that's been able, what's where I've and I feel like there's been some mercy uh from God and grace to grow in that where that's freed me up then to kind of turn my energies in directions elsewhere, is um even as we're as we're saying here, to ask instead, how can I, how can I um respond to this criticism is how can I fan the flames of areas where where I see the Lord the Lord working. And one area where I see that happening in our in our local congregation is just this increasing recognition um and desire um that that we want to be around each other. And and um there's there's a there's a geographic distance that that people are grieving and the place that we're in, there's people coming from quite a distance for a number of different reasons and and just wanting to be creative and think through what are what are the best responses to that? Because that there are good questions that are being stirred up. There's a there's a real desire to to kind of grow into the life of a of a joyful, hopeful church that's presented to us in the New Testament. And it doesn't mean there's easy answers, but the fact that that we're even asking the questions and wanting to grow that, that's that's a wonderful thing. I'm super thankful for that. And so um what a much more constructive thing to focus on, and then then also to grow uh a gratefulness for God's activity. It's not as if he's not present and working, even though there's much that we would love to see him do in areas of uh that we do um struggle in. He is working and and let's let's try to build on that. And so that's been that's been something that I have felt that the Spirit has has used and worked on for me. One area where that's come through maybe in preaching, then, is I find myself these days in my preparation, spending much, much more of my time, not so much in the actual sort of deep, heavy biblical, theological, exegetical work. That's that's just kind of happening all the time in terms of reading and study. But when I'm actually preparing a particular sermon, a lot of my energy for it is actually going back and editing it and softening it and better focusing it, because um my uh first efforts almost always seem to be point out all the problems to fix. And there are ways to address areas that you need growth with that aren't starting with criticism. And so so where it comes through in my actual preaching, I hope, is sermons that that are that are pressing us to grow, but by presenting a beautiful invitation that the Lord's giving to us as the body of Christ, and not by tearing down what is actually happening in this place. So um, so that's been a shift I've sensed or noticed, um, at least in my orientation and desire, and hopefully a shift that uh that has come through in the flavor of my preaching as well.
Joel Lawrence:Well, Dan, thanks so much for joining us for the conversation. Appreciate you sharing your your mind and your heart with us, and uh grateful for you and the work that you're doing, and uh pray for God's blessing upon you and the flock up there in Hinckley.
Dan Brendsel:Yeah, thank you so much. And uh praise God for the work he's doing in the CPT and and I'm real thankful for your for your labors to serve the church in this way.
Joel Lawrence:Amen. Thanks, brother. God bless. Well, it was a really helpful conversation with Dan. Took us in a lot of different directions. Uh Matt, what stood out to you from the conversation?
Matt Kim:Yeah, Joel, uh a really surprising thing. I I I did not equate uh social media and AI with idolatry uh directly as as Dan had done for us in that conversation and framing it. And that just got me thinking in a number of different directions. But uh I think I think he's right in that we are uh so uh self-enamored, uh, we're also wanting to project this image of ourselves to the world. And what he was trying to do in that conversation was bring us back to Christ and the authority of the war the word and uh the authority that preachers have in just simply preaching the gospel. So there were so many good reminders that Dan shared with us.
Joel Lawrence:Yeah, and he he connected idolatry with control and you know technology as a means of control. And you know, he talked about that C. S. Lewis and the abolition of man kind of makes that, you know, more generally, but the connection between magic and technology as different ways human beings at different times have tried to control God. And and I think with this conversation on technology, that's critical. But I think more generally, too, in my own preaching ministry, having constantly to be checked and asking myself, what am I trying to control here? Do I really believe that the word of God will go forth and do what the word of God will will go forth and do? And I I think that's a especially now in a technological world where we can get very, as you said, enamored with ourselves and with our capacities. I think that's just a great reminder to be vigilant about what we're trusting in as preachers and uh are we genuinely submitted to the Lord to do what the Lord is is going to do. And I think that the technological questions that get raised really press us to evaluate our hearts and evaluate what we're trusting in. So Matt, again, great to have you involved with this. Appreciating the conversations uh and thanks for your your your uh contributions and your presence with us. It's always a joy.
Matt Kim:Thank you, Joel.
Zach Wagner:All right. Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider subscribing if you haven't already? You can also help us out by leaving a rating and especially a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. We love hearing from listeners in this way, and it helps others find out about the show. The Pastor Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about this DPT at our website, Pastor Theologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook, YouTube, and follow us on Instagram. This show is produced by Steph Korch and Sophia Luke. The show is recorded and edited in partnership with Glowfire Creative, and editing is done by Steph Freikorps. Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence, Ray Paul, and me, Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.