The Pastor Theologians Podcast
A theology podcast for the church. The pastor theologians podcast consists of conversations and teaching resources at the intersection of theological scholarship and life and ministry in the local church. The vision for this show is to help equip pastors to be theologians for today’s complex world.
The Pastor Theologians Podcast
A PhD in Preaching | Todd Still (Preaching and the Pastor Theologian Episode 9)
In this episode, Joel Lawrence and Matt Kim welcome Todd Still, Delancey Dean and Professor of Christian Scriptures at Truett Seminary, for a rich conversation on theological education and the formation of preachers. Drawing on his own journey as a pastor, scholar, and dean, Still articulates a layered theological vision for preaching—rooted in the grand narrative of Scripture, shaped by evangelical and Baptist convictions, and deeply informed by Pauline theology. Together, the hosts and guest explore the vocation of the pastor theologian, the necessity of rigorous theological study for faithful proclamation, and the dangers of thin, topic-driven preaching detached from Scripture. The conversation also addresses the role seminaries play in forming preachers, the importance of uniting substance and style, and the need for preaching that aims at discipleship and Christlike formation. The episode concludes with an extended discussion of Truett Seminary’s PhD in Preaching, highlighting its commitment to forming scholar-pastors who can serve both the church and the academy for the long haul.
I think that the idea of us having beautiful feet may be oxymoronic, but at the end of the day, it's uh how the Lord has used messengers, heralds uh of the gospel.
Joel Lawrence:Hello, Matt, how are you? Good to see you again. Joel, great to be with you. So we've just recorded episode nine of season one of the Center for Pastor Theologians Preaching podcast with your boss, Dean Todd Still, who is uh the Delancey Dean and the holder of the Hinson Chair of Christian Scriptures at Truitt Seminary. Um, and we wanted to have Dean Still on to talk about theological education and the forming of preachers. And I just very much appreciated our conversation, his heart, his mind. What themes emerged in the conversation that that were striking to you?
Matt Kim:Dean Still is one of the most thoughtful uh people I've ever met in my life and just a consummate scholar pastor. And so we're also grateful for the richness of his answers.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Matt Kim:He really dug deep and and gave us not just a cursory understanding of the discipline. And so uh I thought his uh references to uh people of the scholars of the past, the moral vision of the New Testament, or Beppington's quadrilateral, these are really substantive things to remind the church that we are to be uh at our best pastors who think deeply about the church and deeply about scholarship. So I was really blessed by all the things that he has shared.
Joel Lawrence:Yeah, I um I feel like I might have met him here or there before, but this was certainly the the most I've been in a conversation with him. And I was just very marked by a humility uh and a love for the church that he has. And when we asked him about, when uh I think I asked him about kind of a theological framework, he had four layers and and and thought those through. And it was just like, you know, five to seven millions uh a minutes of a pretty a substantial, brilliant answer about all the different inputs and preaching and things that are going on. So I I was encouraged by the conversation as I say at the end, uh, this is not a time to be thinning out theological education and what you all are doing at Truit. And as we talk about in the podcast, the PhD and preaching that you're heavily involved with directing, I'm just encouraged that there are institutions that are still making these kinds of deep investment in preachers and in the church. So, uh, as folks will know will hear, if they've been listening through the series, you you and I have been co-hosts, you're kind of part co-host and part guest on this one. So that was also fun to hear your heart a little bit more and what you're doing in there. So hope uh folks enjoy the conversation and we'll roll it now. Dean Still, it's so great to have you on the podcast. Thanks for joining us.
Todd Still:It's a joy to be with you, Joel, and always good to be with my colleague Matt Kemp.
Joel Lawrence:I think it's I think we all agree it's always good to be with Matt. He makes us better, doesn't he? He does. He does. And it's great to have Matt as the co-host as we've been doing it on this podcast series. Just to say, today might be a little bit different because we're interviewing uh Dean Still as part of uh uh an episode on theological education and preaching. And uh that will lead us to some conversation a little bit later on about what's going on at Truitt and the PhD in preaching, which which Matt is the director of that program. So he'll he'll be co-host, but then also guest a little bit later on down the line as we go through this this episode. So I might be a little bit different than the previous episodes, but again, great to great to be on with with both of you. Um, why don't we begin, uh, Dean Still? We'd love just to hear a little bit about you. Could you just give us a kind of a high-level tour of your life? Uh, where'd you grow up, your faith journey, educational journey, ministry journey, what you're doing now, all that in a you know, five minutes or less. How about that?
Todd Still:Ready, set, go. There you go. Thanks, first of all, for wanting to get to know me personally. I think that this is so vital, uh, not only in the way we relate to one another, but in the way we relate to those that we are privileged to serve and minister alongside. Our stories do matter because ultimately they are caught up in the greater story of which we are all part. I was born in Wichita Falls, Texas. I call it hard scrabble, Texas, uh, near the Texas-Oklahoma border. If you look at the landscape, you will find not only flat, but you will find longhorns, oil derricks, and tumbleweeds.
Joel Lawrence:That's I I as a child, I I grew up in Dallas and went to Colorado every summer. Yes, sir. And so I like the Dairy Queen in Wichita Falls was one of the key, that was a key stopping point along the way.
Todd Still:So everybody needs a dilly bar at the Texas stop sign, right? Amen. Uh so you know, and I vividly remember growing up that it was nothing for there to be single digits in the winter with multiple inches of snow on the ground. And I recall somehow on the day Elvis Presley died, it was 115 degrees. Wow. So uh Wichita Falls used to boast about being the location with the most extreme temperatures in the United States. I never exactly thought that it was a badge of boasting, but be that as it may, I'm the middle of three children, uh, older brother, younger sister, blessed are the peacemakers, right? Uh and I was born uh to a homemaking mother, a banker father, and we lived in Wichita Falls until I was uh the age of 12. Uh I became a Christ follower at a vacation Bible school uh in 1974. I vividly remember it, I remember the date, and I was launched into, frankly, a lifelong um love affair uh seeking to follow Jesus. I was baptized uh the following year uh into the First Baptist Church uh in Wichita Falls. I moved with my family to a country community in the center of Texas called Meridian. It's almost as if though every state has that uh city. This was a uh town of about 1,200 folks, and we lived there for four years. And as I reflect back upon that time, one of the things that I can see is I grew comfortable with my own company. And one of the things that you do in the midst of not only ministry, but certainly scholarly ministry, is if you can't spend time alone uh uh with the things in front of you, you really don't have much of a chance. So, as extroverted as I might be, those taught me, uh those years taught me some introverted qualities. I then moved with my family to Waco, Texas, where my folks have lived since 1982. Uh, it was there that uh since in a call to ministry was confirmed, I sensed a stirring uh even earlier at about age 14. And uh after I graduated high school, I went to Baylor. And then I took the road most traveled at that point in time, at least for a would-be Baptist minister, I went to Southwestern Seminary. It was my second semester of my first year at Southwestern that I was taking a class with Dr. E. Earl Ellis, Edward is his first name, uh, now deceased, remarkable New Testament scholar. And I was sitting in the back of the classroom, and it was as if though I was living in a one-storied universe, and someone took uh the ceiling and peeled back uh a new story. And I began to be fascinated with the life, legacy, ministry of Paul uh in his letters. That took me to the University of Glasgow, where I did a PhD with John M. G. Barclay, who laterally became the uh Lightfoot Professor of Divinity at Durham. And then I was um ministering even as while I was studying. I was serving as the pastor of a village church not far from Glasgow called Uddingston Baptist Church. That then uh led us back to the States, where I took up an appointment at Dallas Baptist. I was there for five years. Then in 2000, I went to Gardner Webb's Divinity School in Western North Carolina. And I think, in retrospect, that's where I found my calling. Uh the preparation of men and women for ministry in the church. And I moved to Truitt in 2003 and have been at Truitt since then for uh a number of years as an associate, then a full professor, then a uh a name chair, and then in 2015 I became Truitt's fifth dean. So I've been in this role for a little over a decade now. I'm married to Carolyn. Uh she herself has a seminary degree, uh, and she is a founder of a classical Christian school locally called Live Oak Classical. We have two grown sons, and um we feel uh remarkably blessed to have been married 35 years this summer.
Joel Lawrence:Great to hear your story. And so you were in Waco before Waco was cool. Yeah, yeah.
Todd Still:What is that old song? I was country when country wasn't cool. Yeah. I was I I was in Waco uh uh long before uh Chip and Joanna uh made their way here. And uh, you know, I can even say that Chip and I were friends before Chip was Chip.
Joel Lawrence:Uh great that's great, good.
Matt Kim:Well, thanks for thanks for sharing your story with us.
Todd Still:Absolutely.
Matt Kim:Well, Dean, still, it's uh it's good to hear a story. Um I'm thinking about we're we're launching this uh episode regarding the theological themes, particularly particularly about as we think about the formation of the preacher. In your uh ministry career, what are some of the theological themes that have been prominent for you as you think about the ministry of preaching to the church?
Todd Still:Thank you. I would uh like to tackle this almost in four layers, if that's okay. Uh theological themes as a Christ follower in general, then as an evangelical Christian, then as a Baptist evangelical, and then as a Pauline scholar. Uh these themes coalesce, but as I think of basic theological themes, I think of the script of scripture. I think of creation, fall, then I think of covenant, I think of Christ and church and consummation. So we gather that these themes are vital and uh the stories moving forward. And so I think as I preach, uh these themes uh come out in one way uh or another. As we think about our preaching, we preach biblical texts. So the canonical shape of scripture really does matter in my own reflecting upon preaching and in my own proclamation, and I try to do so with a degree of balance. I think the propensity for at least a New Testament scholar is to find him or herself uh in uh the New Testament, but it is an important discipline to remind ourselves that the Bible of the earliest Christians was, well, our Old Testament. And they have the Old Testament in their hearts. It's a lamp, it's a light, it's a plumb line, and so we do well to find ourselves really preaching those texts that we might not otherwise be inclined to preach, and it's that story that continues to inform uh that impulse or at least that discipline. As an evangelical, uh, I have been encouraged by David Babbington's quadrilateral. Uh, his encouragement is for us to recognize as evangelicals that we are people of the book. So a sense of the scripture as trustworthy for matters of faith and practice. We are decidedly Christological, even with a need to focus on cross, resurrection, and that uh conversion is uh part and parcel uh of uh our experience, and that uh we're to lean into uh this conversion and we're to work out our faith with fear and trembling, for it's God who's at work within us, both to will and to do uh the good pleasure. And so we are called to be people uh that are actively uh engaged in faith in broader ambient culture. As a Baptist Christian, we've tended to uh think about themes of soul competency, that we have the capacity to relate to God directly through the agency and the efficacy of Jesus Christ, that we also are engaged in mission and ministry, that uh we are believer priests and we have been equipped for the work of ministry. We talk about the necessity of the local body being active and alive. Sometimes it's spoken of in terms of the autonomy of the local assembly, but it's not so much uh liberty as I see it, but it's responsibility. And then uh Baptist Christians have frequently talked about religious liberty. It sometimes comes in terms of separation of church and state. But as the namesake of our seminary, George W. Truett, rightly noted, religious liberty for any is religious liberty for all. And he thinks that Baptist uh believers really have made this contribution to Christendom writ large. This is religious freedom being the contribution that Baptists bring to the ecclesial table. Then as a Pauline scholar, I have been deeply influenced by uh Richard Bevan Hayes' volume, uh, The Moral Vision of the New Testament, where he talks about cross, new creation, community. So these uh Christological themes, I mean, at the end of the day, um a Paul in this would say, uh the apostle could say to the Corinthians, that I determined to know nothing among you save Jesus Christ and him crucified. Yet if any one is in Christ, there's a new creation, and our lives as Christ followers are embedded into local congregations and then the church writ large. So these are the themes and the thrust that really do undergird the preaching that I'm privileged to do.
Joel Lawrence:It's so helpful to have that kind of multi-layered uh approach. And you know, I think for for people who are listening who can relate to many of those themes, maybe who aren't Baptists, but that can help them reflect on how their own particular tradition is shaping or has shaped their preaching in the kind of totality of the body of Christ. We we bring similar themes, but we also bring different different experiences, different locations, different traditions that that Lord willing are are all being used to build up the body of Christ to its fullness. So I just appreciate how you have how you've answered that question and and kind of given us a multi-layered approach to thinking about our preaching and in the inputs and the outputs to it. Yeah. So Ravi, we're doing this recording for the Center for Pastor Theologians. Um I wonder if you would just reflect a little bit about um kind of the role of preaching in the ministry of a pastor theologian. One, maybe as as you hear the phrase pastor theologian, what what is it that that that brings to your mind? How do you think about that? And then two, you think about it a pastor theologian preaching. What comes to mind in your vision of that? And are there dis distinctives between how a pastor theologian might preach and maybe other models of pastoring that we've inherited in the church?
Todd Still:Yeah, thanks. What a what a remarkable question. So I think that preaching is vital, integral, foundational, pivotal. Pick your adjective. Uh it is uh essential. Uh not only does faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God, but this foolishness of preaching is how God has chosen uh to uh bring folks uh to himself. So I think that the idea of us having beautiful feet uh may be oxymoronic, but at the end of the day, it's uh how the Lord has used messengers, heralds uh of the gospel. You know, I think that um uh uh a pastor theologian uh should have this sense of fire in bones. You know, Paul, as he ponders upon his own ministry uh in the midst of 1 Corinthians 8 to 10, uh it's it's fascinating that uh in instructing Corinthian Christ followers regarding uh food or meat sacrificed to idols, and in chapter 9, he takes this seeming aside. And in so doing, he basically says that we are to be marked by other regard. And he says that I will not take the right that has been given me as an apostle. Uh I have to preach, and I become all things to all people, that by all means. I should save some. You know, I think that Joel and Matt to be a scholar pastor, to be a pastor theologian, is really a privilege. Not all people have the privilege of theological study. And I have viewed study as a bridge between call and competence. And I think that people, to the extent that they can, should get all the education that they're able. I remember as I was graduating from university, the then president of Baylor, Dr. Herbert H. Reynolds, set across from me and said, Todd, get all the education that you possibly can. It is a privilege, though, and it's not an opportunity that everyone has. So I'm mindful that there are different models to the extent that one is able to be studied in the body of divinity, that one is able to have the luxury, I mean, schole means leisure, that one has the luxury of biblical and theological and historical and practical studies, which is technically where preaching falls, although the beautiful thing about homiletics is there are all kinds of streams that flow into the same. But I would simply say that for a theologian who's also a pastor, or a pastor who is also a theologian, let us be reminded afresh that we do this in service of Christ and his church. And when the smoke clears and the dust settles, uh we want to be fathers and mothers of the church. We want to be servants of the church. And so being of by and for the church should be the motivation for our study and for our ministry. It's this vital piety of which John Wesley spoke, and Joseph Barber Lightfoot was quick to say to his students that you need to have two things at the same time. You need to have both the highest reason and the fullest faith. The two really should go together, and to the extent that the Academy has been responsible for divorcing the two, so much the worse for us. And we need to bring the two together.
Matt Kim:Those are really uh helpful reminders. Thank you so much, Dean Stohl. As we're forming pastors and preachers, uh, we often focus on technique, uh, we focus on communication delivery. Where where do you see the this the theology of how we view theology? How does that intersect with the formation of preachers? What should preachers be thinking about as we as we consider uh what God is like uh from the pulpit? Can you reflect on that a little bit for us?
Todd Still:Sure, Matt. I mean, style uh is not inconsequential. Um I mean, although the truth is it's not unlike painting or art, sometimes um it's in the eye of the beholder. Uh what some people think is just the right delivery, other people will find not as accessible or enjoyable. Not that enjoyment is the end all and the be all, not to say, however, there shouldn't be joy in worship and uh joy in receiving the word through it being preached. So I think style is not inconsequential, but I remember one of my preaching professors said, don't be guilty of putting in your margin weak point preach louder. So, you know it's a good line. It's one of these things where style is good, but style void of substance is vacuous. And it's like these third-rate philosophers that the apostle was being compared to. And ultimately, uh, we don't want to simply be peddlers uh or hucksters or contemporary Elmer Gantries. So I think that, Matt, you and I know that at Truett Seminary we have the Kyle Lake Center for Effective Preaching. That seems to be the word we're after. How can our preaching be most effective? In many ways, I think uh we need to take the advice of John the Baptizer, that he must increase and we must decrease, we must hide behind the cross. And if the personality of the preacher, and I understand that preaching is sometimes defined as uh what? Text through personality or something like that now. But um let's hope that our personality does not eclipse the preachment. And as we think of the preacher, uh, it does seem to me that the balance between information and formation uh is vital. One thing that I love about the work that you do, Matt, is you talk about uh preaching as part and parcel of the spiritual disciplines of spiritual formation, that void of this ongoing relationship with the Lord, where uh one is growing closer uh and one is moving in greater degree of intimacy, that it can simply be an exercise, and it it ought not be that.
Joel Lawrence:I want to I want to pick up on this effective preaching um by asking it this way, kind of embedding it in this question about maybe some weaknesses that you've seen in evangelical preaching, maybe some gaps in our theological vision of preaching. And and I think one of the the the reason I want to connect this to effectiveness is I think there's lots of visions about what effective preaching means out there that may not be as theologically rooted or robust as perhaps we might like. So I would love just to have you reflect on maybe some of the weaknesses that you have seen more generally in an evangelical preaching, how that might be connected to theology, and then what really is the effect of preaching?
Todd Still:Yeah.
Joel Lawrence:Um, and how can a better theological vision give us clarity on what the effect ought to be?
Todd Still:For those who are listening uh to our conversation, it would not surprise them to hear uh me say that I would love for the Bible to be central in proclamation. I sometimes grow concerned when a person lingers in topics week after week after week. I am a biblical theologian. Uh I am uh committed to systematics. Uh, I do think that it's important to think clearly about various categories. Uh so I'm not saying that I'm a biblical theologian to the exclusion of the importance of systematic reflection, but I sometimes feel as if though my pastor friends uh take snippets of a text and then they go on to do as they would with a topic that they've imported. Um that is a weakness that is identifiable and evangelical preaching. I'm not saying that you have to be uh an exegetical preacher, I'm not saying that you have to go line by line in exposition. Certainly there can be summary and thematic exploration, but would that a person accuse us of being biblical preachers? So I think that's one thing that I've often seen. And I think you all um, to be honest, and this sounds a tad self-serving, and I apologize for that, but uh so many congregations now in the free church tradition have decided to forego theological education. And they have decided that the best way to train their ministers is to find capable people within their congregations and to train them from within in an apprentice-like model. Uh, it's not that that is wholly unimportant. I would just say that it's insufficient. And as a result, what we end up seeing is there is often not much meat in the stew. And uh it's okay until you've gone around the track a few times, and then there is no there there. The thing that I love about Paul as a pastoral theologian is Paul writes occasional letters. He writes particular people in particular places at particular points and times about particular things. So the particularity of Pauline letters is clearly established. New Testament letters for that matter. Gospels are even contextual, the whole of Scripture is. That's why we put it in context, right? As our friend Ben Witherington says, a text without a context is a pretext for whatever we want it to mean. But one of the things that I love about Paul is that Paul doesn't share with a given congregation everything that he knows theologically. Rather, he has a reservoir into which he taps and he's able to bring that theological foundation to bear on congregational concerns, congregational issues. I think this is what the best pastor theologians do in preaching week after week. But if you have not studied, uh it grows really thin, really quick, as Rich Mullins used to sing. It don't do to preach on Matthew if you have not yet read Mark. So I think that that is uh something that I would also like to flag. And then finally, what does effective preaching do? I used to have an evangelism professor who said preaching to the choir is like fishing in a bathtub. It might be easy fishing, but you don't catch a lot. I think sometimes those of us, at least those of us Baptists who are a part of the revivalism frontier, the so-called Sandy Creek tradition, turn our worship services into revival meetings and as a result sometimes fail to realize we really are preaching to the choir. And good preaching should be discipleship. It should be a call to discipleship. Yes, a call to evangelism is absolutely part of that. But um we need to think in ways that allow us to ask: are these friends with whom I'm journeying in faith being pressed more fully into Jesus' image and likeness, uh, which is the goal of the Christian experience? I mean, Paul can say to the Galatians, I'm in birth pangs over you until Christ is formed in you. So if we can keep cruciformity, Michael Gorman, thank you, in view. I think that that should be the end, the aim, the goal, the telos of effective preaching, at least effective Christian preaching.
unknown:Yeah.
Joel Lawrence:So I I I I think it at this moment might be the time to ask Matt to go to the other side of the table as uh guest, as and I'll take over full hosting duties. Because what I want to do for the rest of the conversation, and again, uh Dean Still, thanks so much for your thoughts. You've really laid out, I think, a beautiful vision that I do think can take us now into more of a conversation about theological education and preaching. And I want to tap into both of your expertise on this. And maybe just begin with a kind of a big picture question. In your journey, and maybe Matt, we can we can start with you on this. In your journey, what have you learned about training preachers? Uh, Matt, you've been a preacher yourself. You've been on uh in in church context, you're now in the in the academic context, heading up the PhD and preaching. What have you learned about training pre uh about training preachers in the academic context and the the importance of that?
Matt Kim:Yeah, Joel, that's a great question. And and Dean Stowe, thank you again for your remarkable uh comments about giving us a theology of preaching. As as I think about how uh we go about training preachers, uh, one of the things that I think we've lost sight of is the fact that we are not just training communicators, we are training pastors who happen to preach. And I think in today's culture we've lost sight of that. In the compartmentalization of ministry, uh, we have preaching pastors who often don't pastor people. And so one of the things that I think we are trying to revitalize, at least for myself, is the vision that uh we are training pastors who preach and not losing sight of that key shepherding function of what it means to be a pastor. So at Truit Seminary, what we're really wanting to do is not lose sight of the fact uh that we're uh trying to train uh preachers technically. We want them to be good exegetes, we want them to be good theologians, but also reminding them that the key function, the key ministry that you are doing is in the local church. You are ministering to real life people, and we want to love them the best that we can. And so part of that really means formation of the pastor's heart, the pastor's soul, the pastor's uh ability to care for people and to sit beside them uh at a at a hospital bedside. We don't want them to lose the sight of the fact that we're just uh training technically sound preachers. Uh I remember years ago in my first preaching class that I taught at a different seminary, uh a student shot up his hand into the air and and asked me, Hey, professor, is it okay if I become an itinerant preacher? And to that I responded, no, there's nothing wrong with that, but why do you want to do that? And he said, I love to preach, but I don't love people. And and I remember that. Yes. It's an indelible, indelible uh memory in my mind. Uh, and that's what we don't want to do. Uh, we want to really make sure that we're solid in exegesis, solid in theology, but also solid in ministry to real people.
Joel Lawrence:Dean still, I'd love to direct a question to you here. Um obviously, you're the you're the dean of a of a seminary which goes beyond preaching. Uh, you oversee lots of different academic disciplines in the life of forming pastors. But in terms of from your seat, what is the contribution that you think the academic context can make to the development of preachers? And then what are the things that the academic degree, the academic context can't do in the development of preachers?
Todd Still:One of the things that I think uh a course in preaching, as we call it, homiletics, as some of our friends are more inclined to call it by any other name, does is it gives our students an opportunity to think about preaching as craft, preaching as art. Uh and the reason that good preaching is important is because God is so much important still. And so it seems to me we are able to frame preaching as stewardship. And so the Lord has entrusted you with various talents. Some may be naturally better communicators. I remember Dawson Trotman was once quoted as saying that disciples aren't born, they're made. That's true to an extent regarding preachers. They they are made. That being said, uh Dr. Kim has taught lots of preachers. Some may have more quote natural gifting, or we would say God-given gifting. So I think that uh it teaches our students the art, the craft, the seriousness, the stewardship of preaching, and that it can be studied academically, but yet it's not meant to be arid. Ultimately, that's what you can't teach. You have to, in fact, encourage students to nurture a relationship with Jesus Christ and his church that would enable them to preach from an overflow. And you need to also encourage students to link both style and substance, uh, preparation and formation. Uh, so whether one is a manuscripted preacher or an extemporaneous preacher that preaches from a manuscript that has been more memorized or internalized, however, one goes about the preaching task, I think that the folks that listen should be able to say his or her heart was strangely warmed as they walked along the way.
Joel Lawrence:Again, a question for for both of you. Things maybe that you observed that have been missing in the way that seminaries have trained preachers, and and how would you see, if you do think that there are such uh things that are missing, how how have these gaps played out in maybe some of the weaknesses we see in evangelical preaching?
Matt Kim:I think it's a mystery for many aspiring preachers as to how one reads the text and then develops a sermon. That pathway from text to sermon seems to be uh arbitrary in some contexts. No one has a real solid grasp on how to move that needle uh as we're as we're forming and teaching preachers how to preach. Jesus is wonderful and I think a lot of exeges know how to uh help their students interpret properly and effectively and correctly. That next level, I think, in in certain seminaries and certain contexts is we're missing that pathway, a direct, clear pathway to how to actually how do you actually write a sermon. And so one of the things that I'm trying to work on for myself is going back to the basics. You know, sometimes uh we're a little bit idiosyncratic in our approach. It's it's just this is how I do it. But how do you actually help beginning preachers develop that process is whatever where I'm my mind is going. Um and it's interesting, even some of our PhD and preaching students, I'm I'm I think about how have they learned how to preach? Is it just hearing a weekly preacher, a local church preacher? Uh is it through uh study? Is it through uh modeling from a mentor? Uh and so one of the things that I would really like to do is focus on a balanced type of sermon. Dean Stowe was alluding to that earlier. We want to have solid exegesis, but uh I remember years ago um my Greek prof used to say exegesis is like underwear. You don't you don't want to necessarily show it, but uh you want to demonstrate that it's on. Uh and so uh really what we're trying to do is form the preacher in such a way that they're they're they're modeling for the church how to read the text. How do I interpret this text? And we've gone uh to answer the second part of your question, Joel, we've gone in the way of storytelling as a substitute for substance, as as Dean Still was talking about. And so time of possession really matters if you use the football analogy. How much uh of the sermon is actual text and and understanding and unpacking that text, and how much is it of it is just telling stories at the grocery store?
Joel Lawrence:Anything you'd have to add to that, Dean Still?
Todd Still:Just the fact that so many of our congregations do not meet as frequently as they once did. And uh Sunday night uh gatherings have gone the way of the dinosaur. Uh, you're not getting folks back during the midweek. And so I would just underscore what Dr. Kim has said. Biblical preaching has become increasingly important because for many, this is the only biblical instruction that they're getting. Sunday school is not in play or discipleship groups or home groups. Many people uh will give some churches uh a couple of hours a month. That's a tall order. So I would say, given the fact that we're with people less than we've been before, all the more the reason that the sermons should be biblical sermons so that they might be able to fall in love with Jesus by falling in love with Scripture, and they might be able to carry that over into their daily lives. Yeah, that's great.
Joel Lawrence:Over the last uh couple minutes that we have here, did want to turn to uh a feature of the program at Truitt that Matt is the, as mentioned a little bit earlier, the director of the PhD program in preaching that you all have. I I would love just to hear uh about Matt, your thoughts, and Dean Still, if you'd like to add, what does a PhD in preaching add to a preacher's development? You know, we think about we we go to seminary, we we do our master's degree, we take preaching courses, exegesis courses, and we pastoring churches. What's the incentive, what's the encouragement to do a PhD in preaching?
Matt Kim:Dean Still, uh I'd like to defer to you as you have been the architect of the program. So would you like to begin and then I'll I'll follow up with whatever I'd love to defer to the director.
Todd Still:Uh we have a defer off here. Who's gonna win? Let me have a go at it. Um what I would say, uh, first of all, is we need homilyticians. Uh you know, there are some theological or divinity school faculties that regard practitioners in homiletics uh to simply uh be, quote, clinical faculty or professors of practice. That's not true at Truett Seminary. Uh in fact, we have three endowed chairs. Uh every one of our preaching professors occupies an endowed chair. I hope that that goes some way to signaling how vital we feel preaching is to our theological curricula. Uh so if a person uh is going to become uh an a quote, an expert at homiletics, they need a terminal degree. Uh and I would encourage them to get a terminal degree in homiletics instead of New Testament or Old Testament or theology. Yes, they all feed into it, but come study preaching if you want to be a preaching professor. And if you want to be a scholar pastor, come get a PhD in preaching. What better discipline, because whatever else you're doing as a lead pastor, you're taking at least some uh reps uh as uh a preaching person, you know, with some degree of regularity, whether it's 25 weeks or 40 weeks or 48 weeks, you're preaching throughout the year. So my own sense is come get uh additional biblical training and theological understanding and historical knowledge and grounding of how the church has gone about its preaching task. And yes, come gain greater understanding of uh principles of preaching. As Matt has said, how can you teach and how can you uh yourself engage in repeatable, replicable process of preaching that's going to be effective week after week? Come study with the people who've studied and can show you how uh to become this kind of preacher would be my encouragement.
Matt Kim:Well, I'm biased, so I I think there are a lot of benefits. Let me just narrow down to two. Uh Dean Still has alluded to the fact that we're training homiliticians. We want to be able to train people who can teach preaching. And over the years, I don't know about other seminaries, but in in some seminaries, we see that the common refrain is anybody can teach preaching. And that seems to diminish uh what we're trying to do. And so uh we think that uh coming to Truitt, coming to our program to study preaching will give you exposure to my great colleagues, Tyson Gardner and Jared O'Contra. Um, but as we think about how we form people who can actually train the next generation of preachers, that's what we're trying to do. Uh eventually, I'm gonna fade off into the sunset. We need to find the next generation to build into scholars and pastors who can train the next generation of preachers. Secondly, I would say we want to be able to train people who can write. And we want to be able to write for the academy and for the church. And so by coming to Truid, we're hoping to be able to train the next generation of scholar writers who can really think uh effectively and formatively for the church and for the academy. So those are my two plugs for our program.
Joel Lawrence:I I really appreciate the the long-term thinking of that in a world where everything seems to be short-term thinking. And frankly, for a lot of Christian education, we seem to be making a lot of decisions based on short-term factors. I'm just grateful for your thinking about the next generation, and and and that's what this is about. That's the kind of longer-term thinking that that we need. All right, so last thing then tell us about the program. Uh, Matt, I think this this might be more more to you. Uh, we'll see if you guys want to fight over it again. But uh what's the curriculum? What's the process? You know, do people come to campus? Are they in cohorts? Just give us some of those details if anyone is is interested and then how they can get connected to Truitt.
Matt Kim:That's great, Joel. Thank you so much. Uh, we have two different modes, as we call them. Uh, one is to come to campus and be a residential student. And by doing so, you would also become a graduate assistant and help with uh training the next generation of preachers as well as uh studying in coursework. Uh, we also have modular or distance students who fly in and join those exact same seminars. So we have uh every year uh bi-monthly seminars uh that happen for an intensive week, and where we just call them PhD seminars. You would start with research methods and take two church history courses and then go into exegetical methods of preaching and contemporary methods of preaching. And so over the course of those 12 courses, you're gonna be in a cohort, but you'll also be with other students who are taking their courses. Uh, at the culmination of that two-year period of coursework, you would go into what's called a comprehensive exam phase, which is about four to six months of preparing for your dissertation. And once you are uh past that stage, you would have the final year, the year and a half to write. So technically, you can finish our program in four years. It's gonna be taking uh some pastors longer because they they have a full-time position and such, but that's the goal. And so, really, what we're wanting to do is form pastors in community, and we're forming scholars in community. And I think that's the best pitch that I can give for our program is that you're not just a uh an isolated research student somewhere tucked away in a library. You're you're being formed by the entire Trua community. So you're gonna go to chapel on Tuesdays, you're gonna go to these different events on campus, and that's really gonna shape you holistically as a scholar pastor.
Joel Lawrence:Dean Steele, anything else you'd like to add?
Todd Still:Just a couple of thoughts very quickly. Uh first of all, this is not a cattle call. We're not trying to do much many, we're trying to do much. It's it's it's the old Greek adage. Uh so uh, and uh I am absolutely confident that uh students that are in this program uh on the other side of this program will either continue to serve local churches or will find places in seminaries and divinity schools to teach preaching. So this is not just PhD production for PhD production. We have to be ethical and thoughtful about this. And so we are absolutely convinced that this PhD in preaching has an end. It has uh a telos folks will actually be able uh to land.
Joel Lawrence:And folks can go to truittseminary.baylor.edu to get to your homepage and then uh can find Matt, can find the program there if they're interested. I just again want to thank you both for this conversation, particularly Dean Still, thanks so much for the time that you've generously given to us for this conversation. I've been deeply encouraged by it. I'm encouraged at what's going on at Truett. I've had the opportunity to interact with a number of the faculty in various different capacities. And uh, this is not the time to be thinning out theological education. The world is way too complex uh for this. And so the fact that you all are investing in various different ways, particularly in pastors and preaching, I'm very encouraged by that. So, again, just want to thank you so much for what you're doing to build up the church and to build up her shepherds.
Todd Still:It's a joy and a privilege, and we appreciate uh your partnership and fellowship and uh your prayers.
Joel Lawrence:Yes. Amen. Good. Thanks very much.
Zach Wagner:Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church. If you enjoyed this episode, would you consider subscribing if you haven't already? You can also help us out by leaving a rating and especially a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. We love hearing from listeners in this way, and it helps others find out about the show. The Pastor Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Pastor Theologians. You can learn more about the CPT at our website, Pastor Theologians.com. You can also find us on Facebook, YouTube, and follow us on Ms. This show is produced by Seth Porch and Sophia Luke. The show is recorded and edited in partnership with Glowfire Creative, and editing is done by Seth Frequen. Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence, Ray Paul, and me, Zach Wagner. Thanks for listening.